I have a WBY in 257, and am looking at a Basners Ultimate (older model with 700 action and basnser's stoock).

I have THOUSANDS of 30 cal bullets, mostly in 165 or 168 grain (TTSX, Berger 168 VLDs, etc)

Which, in your opinions, is the better western big game round?

I have a 375 H&H for the big bears, so this is for elk, deer, 'lopes, 'bou, moose, etc.

If you like the 300 WM, what loads do you recommend with 168 grain bullets?

David,

I much prefer the 300 to a 257. I've used a 300 Wby for many years, a German made that I bought new in 1969.

I also used a 25-270 I.C.L Juenke/Saturn custom rifle I bought from Vern Juenke in the early 1970s. His developments were parallel with Weatherby's and they bore many similarities. It approaches the 257 Wby with a 270 case as a basis. The rifle was a tack-driver but limited to lighter bullets.

The 30 caliber has far too many advantages and flexibility, while the .257 can let you down on bigger game. If you choose the 257, get a fast pitch barrel for use with the heaviest of the 257 bullets...and you have gained nothing, IMO.

Easy the 300 Win

300 Win 168 TSX
Win case
CCI 250 primer
80gr Reloader 22

Both. The 257 for reaching out on the smaller side (deer -), and 300 for the larger side (elk +).

btt

Either...along with about 25 other cartridges.

Dennis

I'm with 1minute, you NEED both.

(How could you stand living in such wide-open windy country without having the Roy in your safe? )

"this is for elk, deer, 'lopes, 'bou, moose, etc."

If you stopped at elk I'd say stick with the .257. Elk and moose would be better served with a .30 caliber bullet. And of course a .30 caliber bullet will work just fine on deer and antelope, so if you can only have one gun, make it .30 caliber. I have a .257 Weatherby that I use for antelope and deer, and a .300 Winchester Magnum that I use for everything larger.

.270 Weatherby is the most overlooked caliber in that range.

But there's lots of good calibers that arguably fit tha description of all around wester rifle..

200 grain bullets is what really makes the 300 Weatherby shine.

.257 Wby. Use the .375 on moose and elk.

It sounds like you already have a .257 weatherby, and are thinking of trading it on a basners in 300 win?
I think I would keep your .257 and buy a less expensive 300.
Or for me , a 30,06. But the 300 is a good round too.
But with the .257 a 300 or a 30,06 and your .375, you will never need another rifle.
You might want another rifle but you will not need one.
I'm sure the basners is a fine rifle, but most of the factory stuff out there these days shoot real well.
If you want a 30 cal save awhile and get one. the new model 70s are beautifull rifles. At about 800.00.
But for 550 I would be quite happy with a ruger hawkeye.
...tj3006

Easy choice... 300 win mag, if you can shoot it well.If you can't I'd go to something smaller,but the 257 Weatherby would not make my short list.There are a lot of better cartridges between 25 and 30 caliber,IMHO.

When you say all around western rifle,that clearly says 300 win mag to me.

With todays bullets, that 257 is capable of taking anything in the US. Having said that, I still like the 30 cal., it simply gives you a little more "edge."

The Basners is $2500, but there is the new weatherby Vanguard Back Country in a B&C stock in 300 WBY for $899. 6 3/4 lbs, 24" tube.....

http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/back_country

decisions, decisions....

I have found the .257 Weatherby to be a fine choice for most western hunting. It will do fine on the meat elk most of actually hunt, instead of the big bull at the wrong angle that always gets mentioned in these discussions. And that is precisely what a .375 will work on, perhaps better than a .300 magnum.

The same applies to moose hunting. A typical Shiras moose isn't any bigger than an elk, and easier to kill. If you're going after a really big bull somewhere, a .375 will certainly do the job.

For the all-around western hunting that most of us do, from pronghorn to mule deer to meat elk, the .257 Weatherby is a fine round. It also a very fine caribou cartridge, if one of them happens to feel western.

Thanks John.

I think you just saved my shoulder and me a bunch or money.

You're welcome!

I'm certainly not anti-.300 magnum. I've hunted quite a bit with most of the .300s, both in North America and Africa, and own two at the moment (a .300 H&H and .300 Weatherby). But as all-around rifles they leave something to be desired, mostly because of recoil, something most of us like less the older we get. These days I find the .300's rather specialized tools, instead of an all-around rifle. This is partly because I've used a lot of lighter chamberings in recent years and found they worked fine.

The .257 Weatherby is one of these. It is simply a great round.

Why don't you just sell those thousands of .30 caliber bullets?

From the sound of things, you're a former High Power target shooter. You should be able to find a ready market for them.

John,

I've been watching this thread and was honestly afraid to state my opinion; an opinion that is based on many years of guiding and lots more years of killing western big game animals.

The thread was totally pro-300Mag. In my mind that is not realistic, nor does it smack of experience in the field.

In my guiding, we tended to shuffle paid-hunters who arrived with a .300Mag and larger to the wranglers or beginning guides. This was mostly because we who had guided for a while didn't need the hassle. Frankly, we had few visiting hunters who could shoot a 300Mag and larger long magnums well enough to cleanly kill an elk.

Simply stated, the guys were used to shooting whitetails with .270s, .308s and .30-'06s and were scared of their brand new .300 Magnums. The writing gurus had convinced them that elk were bulletproof, huge beyond belief and impossible to kill with lesser cartridges.

What they did not know was that the average western guide had killed many more elk than the average eastern-scribbler and that the guides would have simply asked them to bring the rifles to which they were more accustomed.

Heck, most of us carried .308s, .270s and .30-'06s, with the exception of our cook, who always managed to cleanly kill an elk every year with her .250 Savage. It doesn't take a cannon, it takes a single fairly well-placed shot.

I have shot thousands of rounds through the various .300 Mags and I find them accurate and immensely interesting. I shoot the .300Mags well off of the bench, but I'm not a good field shot with them. That's it in a nutshell; the various .300 Magnum cartridges are just above my personal physical limitation to shoot well in the field.

I've guided a few hunters who shot .300 Weatherby rifles superbly on big game. And I totally envy them their ability.

Probably I haven't mentioned it before on the Campfire (mostly because it isn't PC), but I have killed several elk quite cleanly with the .25-'06 and 100-grain bullets. I've never shot a single head of them twice; each simply received a single bullet through both lungs or under the ear and they died most rickey-tick.

The .257 Weatherby would be more of the same, only better.

Obviously, the .257 Weatherby is superb on mule deer, whitetail and, for pity's sake, it has American pronghorn written all over it. There is probably no better commercial cartridge for prairie goats.

You rightly pointed out that the average guy shoots meat elk. And that comment includes Karen and myself. Karen has killed about twenty elk and only one was a smallish bull; the rest were cows and we want to eat the meat, so we always chose ones that were under three years old, if we could.

Most of my elk were cows, as well. You know the number, my friend, but I will never state it on the Campfire because most would not believe and the remainder would think me a game hog. We ate all of them and found needy homes for any shred of elk meat that we could not eat.

Would the .257 Weatherby be suitable for elk? Absolutely. Given the higher velocity, I would tend to use the 120-grain Nosler Partition and just go hunt.

Mountain sheep, goats and caribou??? Heck yes. If there is a doubt, just Partition-up.

Anyway, Roomie John, thanks for bring reason, logic and experience back into this cyber-thread.

Your buddy Steve

I cannot disagree with JB or Dogzapper.

So, just use the 257 Roy and the 375 Ouch and Ouch.

Then PM me and let's talk turkey on Boolits.

I have 3 308s that need feeding . . . . . (grin).

BMT

Thanks, Rooms. I would probably go with the 120 Partition myself as en elk bullet in the .257 Wby., just because I know it would penetrate plenty AND kill quickly with any decent heart-lung shot.

One of the better stories I've heard was a couple years ago at the Bozeman gun show. A young guy came by our table and told me he had a .257 Roberts, a Remington 722 just like the one I inherited from my grandmother. His wife drew a cow elk permit that year, and she didn't like the way his rifle kicked (can't remember what it was, maybe a 7mm Remington). So he loaded up some 115 Partitions for the .257 and told her to be very careful, shoot the cow BEHIND the shoulder.

They went out and eventualy got within 200 yards of a big cow. When she shot, the elk did a total face-down, right there. They walked up, and he found that the .257 had punched through both shoulders. When they skinned the cow, the expanded Partition was under the hide on the far side.

Of course a lot of other good bullets would do something similar, but I always get a laugh out of the hunters who claim the Partition is "too soft" or doesn't retain enough weight.

My friend Dennis Slade (dennisinaz here) has had several experiences with cow elk and the .250 Savage and, I believe, 100-grain Partitions, all clean 1-shot kills. Maybe he will chime in as well.

Incidentally, I CAN shoot a .300 Weatherby well in the field, but much prefer to shoot a .257 Weatherby. The .257's also a very easy cartridge to get to shoot extremely accurately--as, in my experience, are all the .25's. In fact I may be getting a second .257 Roy here pretty quick.

I use and like 300 win mags as well as a 257 Weatherby,there is really one significant difference in the field, my 257 shoots a lot flatter.

How flat? I don't even have to use my B&C reticle to hit deer sized critters in the vitals until I get to an honnest 500 yards where the very first stadia line is dead on.

This means a guy can use a regular reticle with his 257 Weatherby and pretty much point and shoot with little thought as to range out to a quarter mile or so.

Frankly,in the real world game does not always stand still long enough for us to range it precisely with a laser and then dial in or use dots to compensate for range. It's justs these times when you can quickly get into a solid field position and put a well placed shot into the vitals of any critter that 99% of us have any buisness shooting with a 257 Weatherby.

I use mostly two bullets in my 257,115 grain balistic tips for deer and 120 Partions for bigger stuff,I don't even have to rezero,they group in the same little clusters in my Vanguard.

RD

+1

If you have to reach out there a little bit for elk, a well constructed bullet from the 257 will flat out kill an elk!

Interesting discussion, and one that always brings out lots of opinions. Much like was mentioned I find it interesting that so many western hunters as they get older reduce the caliber they use for general hunting as opposed to when they were younger. My father in law is a western hunter (Wyoming,Colorado,Utah) and he is a perfect example. When he was a young man in Wyoming he shot a 338WM and a 300WM because that is what he thought he needed to kill big elk and mule deer. Over the years he has transitioned through many calibers only to settle on the 25-06. I cant count how many deer and elk he has killed with that 25-06, but its been a bunch. He has yet to see a negative with using that 25 caliber for his hunting, but he is also a great shot and loves the tack driving accuracy he gets out of the 25 as well as the reduced recoil. I cant see the need of a 30 with the quality of bullets available today and since bears is not in the equation (like it is up here), I cant see needing a 300 WM when the 257 Roy provides you much better trajectory. The Caribou I shot a few weeks ago with my 257 Roy really enlightened me, and I cant see any moose not succoming to the 257 Roy via TSX, and wouldn't hesitate for one second to take a variety of shots at one given the opportunity. Tis nice to have choices, and this is definately one in whch you choose the caliber you want as opposed to need!

I'm happy with my 25-06, 270s, 280, 308s, 30-06s, 35 Whelen, and 45-70s.

Now, which platform?

Mark 5 fibermark? Stainless 700 SPS? Stainless Vanguard Back Country?

Personally I'd go either 700 or Vanguard.

Dober

300 mag. Have a buddy I stuff a fair amount of RL22 into the case and top with a 168 tsx. Shot a deer that was running a doe the other day, appx 150ish yard shot trying to kill the trash before he bred her, and ended up snapping a bad shot. Touched NO ribs. Totally flank. Hit no spine etc..... Total bang flop.

And IF you need some more stomp, its easy to run up to 220s.... can't do that with a 257 though I'd like to have a 257 stw just because...

Jeff

All this talk about the 257 Weatherby is making me want one. It is tempting to try out one of those plain jane $399 jobbers.

Well now, if the 25s kill elk effectively with a 100 grain Partition, I think the choice is obvious: the 243 Winchester with a 100 grain Partition. Shoots flat, penetrates deep, less recoil, short action, dual purpose, easy to find ammo.....I'm only kidding a little bit, as that combo is tempting me more each day.

Thats what happened to me!

It's good to see others with the same sickness.

Enjoy your new toy.

I was afraid of that. What happened?

Already have, 9 days after I bought it........

Steve- A friend that guides for sheep and bears in BC echoed your sentiment on the magnums about a month ago. He said he had a guy show up with a 300WBY and could pretty much guarantee how the thing was going to go. He'd seen it too many times in the past, and, sure enough, he flinched so bad on the first shot the bullet nearly missed the mountain....*L*

I'm in no way implying that we don't have gaggles of gents here that can handle the larger magnums - we do, I just got a chuckle from 2 guys that I admire and respect their experience and opinions having quite similar takes on this subject.

zapper...

Unfortunately I run into your way of thinking regarding the guys who show up with a 300 all to often and have gotten the "bum's rush" on several occasions. I shoot these well in the field and find them to be pop-guns, compared to what I shot commonly for bigger, tougher game for years.

BUT, I can see where you come from on this. When I guided for a short while (short out of choice )I used to have the hunter sight in his rifle before the hunt...check everything. I would look over his rifle and admire it just before he was to take a shot at the target, then hand the rifle to him, "all ready to go". It in fact would have an empty chamber.

I had one guy from Pennsylvania with his new 300 Win flinch so bad that he threw the gun 10 feet, as he lunged forward at the "snap"! Guess why I didn't last long in the business??

I see what happened. You went gonzo. I would like the remington much better, however I would have to take the chance that the cheap vanguard would shoot.

The SPS model is pretty cool, but no where near $399...

DakotaDeer,

Don't laugh. I talked to a buddy last night who recently started hunting again after a long time. He killed two elk last week with his .243, a cow and calf, one shot each. He doesn't even handload, just knows how to shoot. Complete penetration even on the cow. I don't think he even knows what bullet he used, just "100 grain."

I think the SS SPS is a solid way to go. I looked at the Weatherbys and just couldn't like em, bit bulky and chunky for my liking. Me thinks the 700 with an Edge (which by the way is on order) is a sweet package. This 700 is a tack driving mo fo too, it absolutely loves the 100 grain TSX's in factory fodder, putting 3 into .5". The accuracy was a real suprise, but also highly welcomed since I bought every box of factory TSX's they had in stock for it without knowing if it would shoot em or not!

I bought one of the Remington 700 SPS Stainless/Synthetic .257 Weatherby rifles at Sportsman's Warehouse. It has a full twenty-six inch barrel and really handles nicely.

I put a Leupold 4.5-14 with fine Duplex on it and Leupold QR bases and (low) rings.

Haven't fired it yet, but I've adjusted the trigger (the new Mark-Pro or whatever you call it) came around in a heartbeat; it is now a perfect 3 /2 pounds and as crisp as the finest Remington trigger I've ever felt.

I also free-floated the barrel and glassed (with dark-gray Marine-Tex) both the rear of the recoil lug and the action.

Richard Beebe, the owner of Redding Reloading Equipment, sent me what I consider to be the ultimate set of dies; a body die, a Competition Bushing Neck-Sizing Die and a Competition Seating Die.

And I used umpteen of my Cabela's Points to buy 100 gen-u-ine Weatherby cases from Cabela's.

Right now I'm diligently detailing the cases.

Before I shoot my new .257 Weatherby, however, I'm planning on completely cleaning/degreasing the barrel and treating the barrel with Ultra Bore Coat. I've no experience with this, but UC sent me a kit and it would be interesting to see how it works.

I've had so many great experiences on big game animals with the .25-'06 that can only believe that this new .257 Weatherby will only be more of a fabulous thing.

Steve

Please let us know how it all turns out, especially the UBC. I have had some very good luck with it. (Actually, I would have shot the rifle first to see how it fouled, then UBC'd it. But then I am just that way.)

Almost the exact load I used in my 300 WM except mine preferred 79 grns.

79gr's is the load I use for the 165gr Partition.

Oh, how this thread conflicts me. For many years I worshiped at the altar of the .300 Winchester. It was the doyen of cartridges for me until dogzapper turned me onto the .280 AI. The .280 AI kills deer just as quickly, shoots just as flat or flatter and kicks a whole heap less.

I have also had a recent flirtation with the .257 Wby (Vanguard synthetic NWTF edition) and was really falling in love with it when my dad took a shine to it and the Roy moved into his gun safe so I am now in search of another (likely another Vanguard).


If forced to pick one for the Western task at hand I would show my fickle heart and go with the .257 Wby. Please forgive me .300 Winchester

In the hands of a skilled shooter the 300 has always and will always be a better western big game round.Provided one can shoot it.

Maybe I'm missing something here... but the reason someone should choose a 257 Roy over a 300WM is because of recoil??? GIMME A BREAK! The guy who threw his 300 Winney 10' would still have thrown his Roy at least 7!!! I'm a fan of the 25-06, but it ain't no 300 WM!

Don't feel like you're the only one. Forgive me for I have sinned........

They all threw the 300s and 338s farther than the 270s and 7mm...and the 300 were often heavier guns. "What?...me flinch?? Never"

The 257 Roy, with a good bullet (TSX, NP) may well be a good choice for elk in semi-open and gentle country.

But I wonder if it would be a wise choice in country such as the Salmon River Breaks in north central Idaho. This country is stood up on end with some of the steepest mountains on earth and it's one hell of long way to the bottom.

If a bull can get his feet moving after the shot he's likley to go to the bottom of the canyon. Packing one out of here is now your worst nightmare!

I want a round that throws a bullet capable of breaking at least one shoulder from just about any angle and certainly able to break both shoulders on a broadside shot. I want him on the ground right NOW.

I think that for this type of country that a 300WM/WBY with a 200 grain NP would make more sense, provided you take the time to learn to shoot it well.

Just my $.02

-Mike-

I have thought about this topic quite abit today. I am sorta surprised that quite a few people think the 257 may be a better choice. While the 257 weatherby mag is perfectly capable of killing elk I would consider it to be way down the list of fine elk rounds. The 300 win mag with 165 gr - 200 gr to me is clearly a better all around big game round. Quite honestly I don't know anyone personally that would take the 257 weatherby as one of their top picks for ELK. To many different angles and distances out west in the timber and open country where I just don't see a 257 being a very good choice.I would take a 7mm rem mag all day long over the 257 just do to the fact of punching a bigger hole and a heavier bullet. That's says alot for me becuase I don't even care much for 7mm rem mags. For me a all around rifle would have to be .308 caliber on up.To me the 300 win mag may be as close to perfect for a all around rifle as I can get.

I have, and have used both...but also have a third choice which I think is about perfect, the .270 WBY. more bullet weight then the .257 and actually shooots flater (130 your brand) at 3450-3500. Smacked at lot of stuff big and small DRT.

Actually MD recommended it a some years ago in RIFLE and havent been dissapointed.

less recoil than the .300's

LC

Dang you AC! Every time you post about your new SPS .257 I get closer and closer to buying one!

I hear you. If it weren't this close to Christmas, I'd be $400.00 "shorter".

I would not necessarily agree that advocacy of the 300 mag implies lack of field experience.I have seen some excellent,seasoned shooters using the various 300's and who knew exactly what they were doing with them.

I have found that the guy who sucks with a 300 pretty much sucks with anything,and he is unlikely to get a good deal better if you stick a high velocity small-bore in his mitts.The guy who is likely to have the most problem with the 300's is the one with little experience,practices very little and does not shoot a great deal at all.He reads too much,thinks a 300 is the answer to his sloppy shooting,and generally knows nothing about the performance potential of his rifle. But a GOOD guy with a 300 is going to be pure poison on about anything, if he can shoot it.Such a guy is equally effective with about anything.

I've seen the 250 Savage and 25/06 used on elk; they kill them,I know, cause I helped skin and butcher the animals afterwards.I also have spent a lot of time chasing wound channels made by 25 caliber bullets through lots of elk(along with other calibers),and seen the difference in effect on animals under field conditions between 25's and 300's. Nobody will convince me that there is no difference,and for an all-round sporter to be used for elk and the general run of soft-skinned game, under a wide variety of cover,distances,size of animals, I would prefer something of larger bore diameter and heavier bullet weight than a 25 caliber provides,even if it is not a 300.There is a lot of cartridge choice available between 25 and 30 caliber that will still keep recoil manageable,and still trump any 25.I have seen the 25's used on a pretty wide variety of game,pronghorn to elk, and I hardly fell into a swoon over their effectiveness.I am not prejudiced in this regard,as I am a big fan of the 257 Roberts,but I'm not gonna reach for it when there is a good 270 or 7mm rifle around.

OTOH I understand Steve and John's concerns about recoil and field positions as well. Locked in solidly with bags,a solid field rest or bipod, a 300 is pretty easy to shoot accurately; but if you get into some funky field position,or even off-hand,etc,it take a good deal more muscle tension to control the 300's,which can affect precision a good deal as a guy anticipates getting whacked. As you age,you become recoil averse,but this is easily handled by stepping into the realm of a good 270 or 7mm rifle,any of which make a better general purpose western rifle than any 25.

A good example of much of the above is my old friend,Bill, a cattle rancher in Wyoming,a very good field shot, but not much of a ballistic gacker.He has seen a lot of elk killed with everything from the 243 to the 300 mags. When I met him, his elk rifle was a badly worn Savage 99 in 250-3000,which he had used on scores of elk. I gave him a 270 in 1980 and he has killed everything from cows to herd bulls with it ever since.About 4 years ago I bought a 300 Win Mag in Rawlins and left it at the ranch, and Bill used it on some cows and a couple of herd bulls at distances out to about 350 yards.If you ask him(I did) about how one cartridge compared to the other,he will tell you that the 270 is a far better elk rifle than any 25,but the 300 mags just hammer them. Of course, Bill can shoot.

I completely agree with Britt that animals give you little time to fool with rangefinders,and high velocity and flat trajectory are very desireable attributes in a western big game rifle.

I also think Highridge is spot on,and the fellow who posted on the 270 Weatherby is correct as well, that it's a better choice than a 257.

Meat elk hunting out here in mid-eastern WA calls for long, long shots. You've been on the Roberts Ranch David as I have so you know what I'm talking about.

I would rather have a 300 win mag with a 24" barrel shooting
fast 150's or 168's than a long 26" smoke pole in 257 wby shooting 120's.

Same goes for mule deer.

I killed my very first elk some 35yrs ago with a 270Wby, it did a fine job then and many deer, antelope and a few elk later I still think it does. I don't own the rifle any longer nor do I have another so chambered, but if I were thinking of going under 30cal it would be very high on my list. For general western hunting, especially for an out of state hunter who must travel a long way to get there, spend a lot of money doing it, etc I feel a 300mag is the best by a mile...IF the hunter can handle it. I've never seen any caliber under 30 hammer big game the way a 300mag does when used by someone who knows what he's doing. About 20yrs ago I pretty much retired all of my rifles chambered to anything under 300mag, except for an occasional mule deer or antelope hunt. Did a lot of hunting these past 20yrs and cannot say I ever wished I was carrying something else when a 300 was in hand. Can't say that for the times when I wasn't packing that rifle!

Bob

The Roberts ranch is indicitive of the problem here. Some shots are way out there in the open, and then there's the other parts of WA and ID I hunt where it's broken trees, then fields, then dark forest.

It's hard to discount the experience and number of animals that Steve and John have killed. I suspected they would both advocate the 257 WBY over the 300 Win.

Besides, aren't you the guru of 6.5?

I think if a large poll was taken within experienced hunters it would be a landslide in favor of the 300 win mag for elk. I am in no way saying that a 257 won't kill elk,just saying the 300 win mag will do it better and in more situations it will make a clean kill.There are many very experiences hunters that would even say the 257 is very marginal.Look at energy levels out there at 400 yrds between the 2 rounds and look at the bullet weight difference and the wound size difference.I can find no advantage to the 257 weatherby on elk.Not sure why on this site there are so many advocates for small calibers on elk,sorta strange to me.Kinda like saying the 22 mag is the perfect all around deer rifle. A mature elk is 3-4x the size of a mature deer.While the 257 weatherby may be a strong canidate for a all around deer rifle, elk are a whole nother critter and a heck of alot thicker ,stronger, and heavier boned.

Agreed.

I agree. On the NM ranch I hunted this year I would have been handicap with a 257 wby. I hunted the Gila in NM last year and a 257 Bob would have been adequate. It all depends on your type of hunting.

I can understand Mule Deer and Dogzapper's prejudice against the 300 Win. I can only imagine the morons they�ve ran across carrying a super wup ass magnum. But a 300 Win IN THE RIGHT HANDS is much more formidable. You can't judge the caliber by the idiots who use it.

Here I am wondering how much of what some people wrote here was actually comprehended. I don't think any of us advocated a .257 Weatherby as the ONLY rifle for ALL western hunting. David has a .375 H&H, for crying out loud. I know some will claim this isn't a good long-range cartridge, but in my experience with it (considerable, though mostly in Africa) it works fine at longer ranges with the right bullet and some practice. And I don't know anybody who thinks the .375 isn't enough rifle for elk, under any circumstances.

Also, the claim that ANY experienced elk hunter would suggest the .300 Winchester over the .257 Weatherby simply isn't true. I have become acquainted with quite a few elk outfitters and guides in my time, people who often see more elk killed in a season or two than most hunters will kill in a lifetime. Yes, there are a bunch of them who advocate nothing less than a .300 magnum, but I have run into an equal number who say, "Whatever you're confident with."

One long-time outfitter from Colorado and I got to talking about elk rifles (naturally), and when I asked about what he advises as a minimum, he said ".257." I said Roberts or Weatherby? He said either one, as he's seen a bunch of elk killed with both. And a lot of the shooting on his ranch is long-range stuff.

So we can come up with lots of opinions on either side of the argumment. My main point, however, is that David has a .257 AND a .375, and nobody here was telling him to get rid of his .375 and hunt everything in western North America with his .257.

That's why I keep the 375.

It covers everything the 257 and my 308 do not.

Wonder how much David's 375 weighs? I'll bet it's a handy rifle
on elk mountain, har har!
And if it is under 9lbs I'll bet that would funner to shoot than a 300 Win Mag, har har! (Saving your shoulder David?)

There is less than 2" of difference at 400 yards between the
300 shooting a 130 TSX and a 257 shooting a 115 TSX.

Is there really a perceived recoil dif between these two loads?

The 300 can be loaded down in bullet weight, the 257 can't be loaded up.

THEE all around western rifle? That is the question is it not?
Is is not obvious it's the 300 and always will be.

Edited to add

Oh, and Barnes has a new 110 TSX in 30 caliber now.

Both
The 257Wby for deer, antelope, sheep, and coyotes.
The 300Win for elk, moose, caribou, goat, and black bear.
(Your 375 H&H for the rest)

The 375 is light, but does not kick too hard. Sorta between an F250 and a light Mack Truck.

Agreed on the 1320 TTSX. That's what Connie Brooks shoots in her 300 Win Mag.

Dang David, You should have never sold me that .260, it would have been perfect for your needs

Actually,my choice is.....neither one! But both will work!

.25's rock. Then some here would say I can't kill one reliably with my 8x57 too (apparently anything in the .323" size bounces off paper). I've watched 100 TSX's from the Roberts (3150 fps) cover 100 yards then 36" of deer starting with a shoulder and exit (deer DRT). I'm thinking they'd do just fine on an Elk with a reasonable shot. Even faster via .25-06 or .257 Wby would be even better or heavier as fast or faster. Then I like what my .270 WSM and 140 TSX's did to an bull. I know of many that have .25-06's in that part of the country and use them on everything. If I had to live with just one rifle the rest of my life it'd be a .25-06.

Wow, I thought she always portrayed herself as a lot a woman, but that's over the top! The recoil on that thing must be incredible

Interesting. Also, they have the 110 TSX already for the 270, and I sure think that the 270 Winny has a lot more versatility than the 257 Roy, and thus would be a better choice for an all-around "light" Western rifle if one wanted to go non-magnum.

I like bullet weight and bore diameter personally, so it's a no-brainer from where I sit- 300wm. Although, 'twer ME, I'd opt for a lighter, handier, shorter rifle in 300 WSM instead. And if I was doing THAT, might as well do it right and go .325 WSM. :-)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here:

Bob, I'm thinking something 270'ish

Gimme one of each:
the 257 Roy with a 26" tube for my southern Idaho muley hunting and a 300WM with a 24" barrel with 200gr partitions for elk and such.

There, problem solved.

I'm guessing ol' Bob just split the difference and went 7mm....grin

Has anyone here ever heard of light bullets not making it through bone?Does anyone believe that there are jobs better done by heavy bullets than light one's,even the vaunted TSX?

Has anyone ever figured that light bullets and calibers work when driven through the slats, but MIGHT not work so hot if a quartering on shot is presented,and the bullet hits a shoulder knuckle on the way to the chest cavity,especially at short range where velocity is very high? I mean, has anyone ever seen any of this stuff happen on elk sized game?

IMHO this is an absurd conversation.I would not go around the corner to shoot an elk with a 25,with all deference to the worthy opinions expressed here. Seems like a stupid idea to me.The entire conversation is ridiculous.

That works Tim!


Of course if you really think about it, the 270 Win/300WSM combo is perfectly ideal...grin

Funny how guys like dogzapper that have done it say it works just fine, but guys that haven't say it can't be done.

No, no Sam.
We must always use more rifles for the job, not less!


And then, once people get their fill of 300s and 257s they can man up and just shoot 270wins for everthing...
(ducks)
<g>

I love a good controversy....

Me too.


I would still rather own more rifles than less, and I imagine that both the 300 winny and 257 Roy are very useful calibers for western hunting, although I have no personal experience with the 257Roy(yet... )

jds: Seen it many times my friend;I'll match my book with yours anytime. Where, exactly would you like to start? I don't need Steve or anyone else on here to tell me about how a 25 compares to a 30 when it comes to elk, or anything else.

Read my posts carefully; I never said it could not be done; I could do it tomorrow,and the day after.....my point is that there are better tools for the job. If you wanna hunt elk with coktail time calibers, be my guest.

You, on the other hand, may need to be guided along...

So don't play stupid games with me by putting words in my mouth to suppport your silly arguments; you're barking up the wrong tree.You wanna kiss gun writers asses, be my guest; I won't play that game.

JDS: WELL?

There ain't a nickels worth of difference between most anything from the .243 up to the .338, giving good bullets and proper shot placement. Everything else is just fluff and most everybody knows it if they sit back and are really honest with themselves. Guys a hundred years ago would rule the world with a .22, a 30-30, and a 12 guage. Game ain't grown bullet proof in the mean time.

Based on THAT response, I rest my case.

Powerguy: That's MY minimum;other results may vary...

Given the condensed version, below...



and calculating the new parametric differences we come up with a .300WSM shooting 180 Partition's or 168TTSX's.....

grin

You guys are too funny!

...and you don't even have to pay for it.....

I'd want my money back if did..

After reading this I think I am overgunned with my 338

I think that statement is the most accurate one made since this thread turned into a debate. A guy hunting with a 300WM cant tell a guy that has killed 30 elk and 30 mule deer in his lifetime with a 25-06 that he doesn't have the right gun for hunting the west. On the flip side a guy hunting with a 25-06 cant turn to a guy who has killed 30 elk and 30 mule deer with a 300 WM and tell him that he has too much gun. They are both more than capable of filling many a freezers over a lifetime, simply choosing either one or a dozen other calibers that will work easily as well is the hardest part. There is no best, theres is only what works, and what works for each of us is quite likely different!

I used the 25-06 as an example since the 257 Roy is equal and mo betta but more specialized!...grin

Amen, end of story.

SO say we all.

Whadda ya mean, 338s are perfect!

If you really believe there isn't much difference between a 243 and a 338 then you need to go out and get some field experience.

jds44, have you hunted elk?

------------------------

When you hold as many variables constant as is reasonably possible ( bullet construction, velocity, etc) then it's a simple truism that a bigger, heavier bullet makes a bigger hole, if nothing else. That's a good thing. No? Prove it.

I'll hold myself up to ridicule here by saying that I do believe that my "magnum" rifle DID help compensate for a less than ideal shot by the wanker behind the trigger ( me). Along with a good bullet; more on that in a sec. My bull was at a trot at a buck fifty yards, and I forgot to lead him a little in the heat of the moment. So I hit a little further back than I'd intended and mainly hit only one lung. NOT ideal. Elk went about 40 yards. This is an elk I'd already jumped out of bed. 40 yards from a roused-up elk at a trot is essentially DRT.

As to bullet choice, in my opinion a heavier caliber allows more latitude with bullet choice- at least if you like heavier bullets for caliber, as I do. To that end I run Accubonds in my 338 and 325. That AB absolutely fragged that one lung on the above bull elk. Would a tiny TSX from the .243 jds44 is pimping have taken out that one lung so completely? I kinda doubt it.

So there, I'm coming right out and saying that the dreaded magnum rifle did help compensate for a less than ideal shot. Flame away; I'm cooking elk burgers for the kids tonight <grin>!

That right there is why soo many hunters use soo much gun. The old "Even if I dont hit em good, he'll be so [bleep] up by the size of the chunk of lead I am throwing that he'll still go down". Cant tell you how many times I have heard that up here, very common statement made by 338WM and 375 H&H shooters. It still is merely an answer to a lack of confidence in killing. Give an experienced hunter the same variable and he'll either pass on the shot or make it count, the caliber of the gun is irrelevant! Having known some very successful elk hunters (some being family members or dang close) why is it that none of them feel the need to use a 325WSM or a 338WM to hunt elk? I am guessing its cuz they have killed so damn many of em with lesser calibers that recoil less and are more enjoyable to shoot that they dont see the need? Once again, not that it makes one caliber better than the next, just different reasons for guys using different calibers. If your reasoning is that you freak out and clip lungs or gut shoot elk, then a bigger magnum caliber might just be what you need.

Jeff O says it well...the conditions are seldom perfect. There are no bragging rights associated with using a marginal tool. Can the 25's get the job done? Well yes, under the right circumstances. But, the circumstances are always changing many times for the worse. If you are a local meat hunter who is willing to wait for another opportunity then go with something less versatile. However, if you intend to get the great beast of a lifetime which has required applying for a permit for 10 years and you have spent thousands of dollars to get there, then you better prepare in advance for the difficult conditons that can come your way.
P.S. This does not mean that you need a big 30 to mash a mule deer or that a 375 is required for a big mature bull elk. The mangum 7's and 30's are the rigs for big bulls. The 257 Wby is just right for most every thing smaller.

Utter nonsense. The implication is that people who shoot larger calibers(I don't know how a conversation about 257's and 30 caliber magnums got to include 338's and 375's)shoot bigger rifles because they gut shoot animals, and use the bigger cartridges to make up for sloppy, rotten shooting.

This is a ridiculous; just because THEY cannot handle a larger rifle, they believe no one can(the "not-invented-here" attitude), and believe they occupy some higher moral ground because "they" use a little gun to shoot a BIG animal, making them somehow intellectually superior, and possesed of reasoned enlightenment.

Meantime, the guy who uses a "reasonable" elk cartridge(like a 300,say) is ridiculed as being a lousy marksman who gut shoots everything in his path,can't hit a bull in the ass with a bag of rice at arm's length, and strews the country-side with bloated carcasses.

What trash.....also laughable.

So, all you who believe there is no difference, turn in those hot-rock 257's on Marlin 30-30's...I dare ya

That was a response to JO talking about feeling like he needs to use the 325WSM or the 338WM on elk.

Nonsense is you not being receptive to the fact that what one guy finds to be a great all around caliber, is something different than what you would define as an all around caliber. Its Bobin's way or the highway!

Actually, Alaskacub, I hit the elk exactly where I was aiming. It's just that I needed to be aiming a few inches further forward to compensate for the trot < grin>. And no guts were hit. Jelly' d the back half of the near lung, and clipped the back of the off lung, bruising it and creasing/breaking it, barely.

The whole killing of this elk started the previous year and involved a lot of initiative and bust-ass on my part. In another sense, it was the culmination of 7 seasons of learning how to hunt the G.D. beasts. I did everything right, and the reward was having a split second to make a tricky shot. Which I did- animal was down in a couple seconds. My POINT is that I do feel that having a good, solid cartridge really helped. Sure didn't hurt in any way shape or form!

Would a 30-06 have done the same thing? I'd guess so, but my 22" 30-06 is actually a longer, heavier rifle than my 24" .325. Would a TSX and a .243 have done the same thing? Doubt it.

I have killed a lot of elk, 7 with the little 6mm rem longest was 298 yards with it, and they all died with just one shot. Killed a bunch with my .257 WBY all but one died with one shot from it. Killed some with a .270, 7mm. 30-06 .300 Win, 300 WBY .338 Win 340 Wby one with my 270 Allen and a couple with my 338 Allen all where one shot kills.

I will say this the ones shot with bigger calibers usually died quicker unless they were shot in the neck.

Big bullets at high velocities transfers into energy here some proof check out the neck shot on the bull in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RD29c6w40w it whipped his head around like a rag doll. 300 SMK at 2840 fps. out of a .338 Ultra Maxx not to be confused with the .338 RUM

+1

"all around western rifle" = bolt action scoped 270 Winchester.

(for the record, I don't own one) I do have a couple of 280's, and don't think there is much difference.

Sycamore

Hey, just a simple .280 Ackley or a 7-08 Ackley works wonders on elk. Put a single 120 Ballistic in them and they die most rickey-tick.

It ain't how big you make it, it's how you make it BIG.

Steve

Preach it Friend Steve!

I'm prety quickly joining the cult of smaller is mo better, because its easier to shoot well, and things die just like with the big stuff.

If it werent for the damn bears up here I'd not pack a 30 cal or anything bigger, but I live with what if in my mind a lot, and have had enough sichiations to reinforce my logic.

Hardly my view at all;like you I have my favorites, based on what I've seen and done.But taking small bore cartridges against large animals(I'm not talking about little meat elk)just seems like a bad idea,especially if the objective is to satisfy some inner need,and prove it can be done.Anyone capable of taking the recoil of a 257 Weatherby can handle a cartridge throwing more flack. There are better tools for the job. THAT is my point.

At some point,you have to stuff your ego in your pocket,and take the animal into consideration.See JoeCool's post;he's used all kinds of stuff; the larger calibers kill quicker.THAT is also my point.

Even though I may not be able to manage a 300 as well as others does not mean I'm going to categorize 300 users as chump-change shots ,gut shooters, just to justify the use of a small bore. This is standard fare on here and it's a completely ridiculous argument,used by lots of guys who post here.It's mostly BS based on the fact that THEY can't manage one.

From dennisinaz from another thread in this forum regarding the 300ROY.



DW ... I imagine you can guess on my choice of platforms .... MkV Fibermark.

If My 300WBY would live up to my expectations in the accuracy dept. I doubt I would have bought another rifle. But all my other MkV's (which I wouldn't have bought) have been accurate. So I reckon I just got a bum one.

Of the two I pick the 300 WM because it's more sporting. I mean where's the challenge in a 257.

You have to be more fit to lug the 300 around and handle the crushing recoil. You have to be much more practiced with it be able to hit actual game animals. It takes much more mental focus and knowledge of the trajectory to place a lethal shot. You have to be more secure in your abilities to shrug off the western attitudes about the caliber choice. You have to be a better hunter because you'll not get the pick of the guides and you'll have to track that gut shot you made. Your time in the woods will probably be more limited overall because you'll have to work more to pay for new rifles once you discover your rifle choices were naive.

I'm moving toward a battery of longbow, Flintlock and 300 mag!

David,
I recently read on one of the native american (maybe White Mountain Apache) hunting sites that a 300 Win mag was the minimum caliber for elk hunting.
So if you showed up some places with a .25 caliber, you may have to borrow another rifle.

Although I started this thread, it reminds me of when I showed up in Africa with a 308. The PH kept telling me he thought it wasn't enoough gun, but it accounted for a string of 12 one-shot kills, including a zebra and a kudu.

As friends Steve and John state, its the rifleman, and the bullet. The rest is of lessor importance.

My original question was aimed toward long range shooting (to me, that's over 400 yards, but under 600 yards). As Bob/SU35 said, some of the shots aroung here are longish.

Although I buy and trade on the site a lot, I'm just a working class guy who can only afford so much in the safe. And, even if I could afford everything I wanted, I only want a few, and want to have an intimate relationship with them.

For 400+ yards on elk, you know the answer. Did you see the thread on my 545 yard elk? It falls right into your "long range" criteria. A 168 TSX at 3200 fps which barely hit bone didn't exit on a hard quartering shot. No way would I have taken the shot with a 257.

Hmmm, have you ever seen a .243 used on game? On elk? On elk shoulder bones? If not, then that statement doesn't hold much water. I've used the TSX out of a .243 to punch through front shoulder bone, vitals, guts, opposite side femur, and it came to rest in the opposite ham of a big Canadian whitetail. I don't doubt that it would make it to the vitals on the shot you took at that cow elk.

And I'm still trying to figure out how shooting big trophy bulls (as on White Mountain Apache) with the .257 Weatherby got into this discussion. I can't remember anybody suggesting that during the thread, though admittedly I haven't gone back and looked again.

Maybe it's just another example of people logging onto a thread that's been going a while and not reading the whole thing.

Hey JB you gotta stay up on these things, didn't you realize that everyone's huntin Dry Lake these days...<g>

Dober

I have been guilty of that a time or two.

If you plan on shooting elk at 400 to 600 yards with a 257 Wby I would say no!!! Not only no but hell no!!! Most of the ones I shot where under 300 yards the ones that where killed at longer ranges did die. But not like the ones getting hammered with a 300 or 340 WBY. Also I had all kinds of time to get the prefect shot, most folks don�t have those luxuries.

Take it as you like, but I do know a little about killing elk� took these pics just a few minutes ago from my deck they are at my 400 yard target and they are at 500 yards now.

I think we all have! Though generally I like to at least go back and read the original question.

Personally, I kinda think a 2-rifle battery of a .257 Weatherby and a .375 H&H might be pretty much ideal.

By now we've dragged out all the old standbys for this sort of question, including the one (can't remember whose post) that suggested a .375 is going to be a lot heavier and kick more than a .300 Winchester. I have not found this be true, especially the kicking part. To me a .300 Winchester with a 180 at 3100 and a .375 with a 260 at 2700 kick pretty similarly. Certainly anybody that can shoot well with a .300 Winchester can shoot well with a .375.

The average .300 might be a little lighter than the average .375, but not by much. Even at a relatively advanced ago I have found that an extra half-pound or whatever doesn't make much difference whenh hiking around the hills. (Now, get a rifle down around 6 pounds and that DOES make a difference....)

And I have hunted quite a bit with both a .300 magnum and a .375.

Joe Cool,

If you have some fresh coffee, I might just skip work and stop by!

Where's Bandon? I'm in the Tri Cities

No problem but if you come make sure you bring Dave H with you I have met Dave and did some gun buying and swapping with him, he is a great guy. My BIL and SIL live in the Tri Cites.

Bandon is in southwestern Oregon on the coast.

That be me JB.



I'll stand by that statement.

I've taken elk out to 650 using 200 NP's I don't need a 375 at any angle, I also don't want to be lobbing 260 grains bullets out at distance. It's a rare 375 rifle that anyone would want to haul around without the use of a horse.

I now shoot a 6.75 lb 700 Ti in 300 WSM shooting 180's at 3,000.
It shoots flatter than a 375 and will also will kill elk as well as any 375. Bull, cow, big, little, makes no difference.

I shoot 130 TSX's at 3,500 fps. It shoots within a couple of inches difference of a 257 wby at 400 yards.

One rifle, one cartridge that fits what the title of this post says. " 257 WBY or 300 Win Mag as the all around western rifle?"

As I've posted before, the 300Win would be my choice and I believe it to be the single best "all around" cartridge for any western hunting that involves elk or moose. I don't think a 257Wby is even in the same ballpark, but that's just my opinion, based on what I hunt and where I've hunted. A two rifle battery of the 257 and a 375 is also not very practical, IMO. They are both specialized rounds, in spite of what some say they have done or can do with either one. If I had to shoot at 400+yds, and I have on several occasions, the 375 with any bullet is about the last thing I'd want to use. As an out of state hunter who has to spend a considerable amount of money to make the hunt, gets a short period of time to do the hunt, and is somewhat trophy oriented, the 257Wby would never be my choice for any elk hunt. I'd love a 3 rifle battery of these three, but if it's going to be just two I think one specialized cartridge is enough.

I'm thinking a NULA in 7 Rem Mag will fit the bill.

John55-a couple of things to consider are:

*it's of no big trick to build a 257 Wby into a light weight rifle and with a 120 @ 3250 or so there isn't much I wouldn't take on with it. (and 4 me, a elk would be the last of my worries) That turns the user friendly 257 Bee into a very user friendly round that will lights out most all that move in a very quick manner.

*as for the 375 and your concerns with 400 yds. If you ever get the chance to come by Bozeman and have the time and or interest give me a call. We'll take my 375 (it happens to be chambered to Wby) out to the range and ring it out to 500. With a scope with dotz and or turrets 400 plus is as easy as it gets. Or we could mount my 3-10 with an M1 on it and go out to Brad's property by the Crazies and run it to 1K...

Realistically neither round is that specialized unless one limits one self to the confines of what the manufactures build...

Scoped as such it is no bigga deal to take elk in the 400-700 range if the conditions are right, and the shooter is ready and has put in the proper practice time. IMO if a shooter is gonna be shooting consistently in the 400 plus range then it big time behoves him/her to have his scope set with either dotz and or an M1. With those reticles I can take any round from 2500 on up in speed and make em work to a long long ways. And this pretty much eleviates mucho of this ballistic gack that we all love to spout about.

*have you ever used a 257 Wby on elk, and or have you not hunted and taken elk with it or any round?

*lastly, the old theme of the poor old non rez only has so many days is a total bunch of bunk and just doesn't have the time that the res does is pure horse hockey! Most non res elk hunts puts the hunter on the elk fields longer than most residents get year in and year out. And if it's a guided hunt then things change even more so in the non res favor. No a public land non guided hunt for either a res or a non res is a totally different cat and not to be confused with a guided hunt.

Seriously if you ever get by look me and we'll get out and you'll become a believer of dotz and or turrets.

Dober

Quick hijack and I'll let you gackster's get back after it.

Does Logan have a 500 yard gong Mark? I'm aware of the 430 yarder, didn't see the 500.
Thanks Dober, Sam

430 is right at Logan Sammy, unless you go to the other side of the interstate...grins

Dober

grin


Thanks Dober.

Can't really abide by your statement that in-staters don't have more hunt time that out of staters, Dober. I don't think that's true at ALL. I think it's about like blacktail hunting is for me- if you came over here to hunt one (which would be way cool BTW!) it'd be for a set period of time. If the weather wasn't right at that time... or the hunting pressure was high in the area of choice... or you had a bad cold... or WHATEVER, you'd be screwed.

I, on the other hand, have a month to hunt 'em. I can hunt on a Tuesday when the weather is perfect. I can fail for 3-1/2 weeks and still tag out by hammering those last few days. Etc.

I mean... be honest (figure of speech, I know you are honest <g>)- how long exactly was your resident elk season this year? Isn't it STILL GOING?!

Yeah Jeff it's still going here, but......if you did a pole of the average Mt elk hunter you'd find that there is no way that he got 5 days or 10 days to hunt the critters. Between time and work and the wife day in and day out it just isn't gonna happen.

And of course there are a few nut cases out there (here) that will hunt them 8-10 days a year. But they're the exception and not the norm.

As for certain days, many of my friends can only go on this or that days during the season and they're dependent on the weather as well.

Nope, day in and day out the out of stater on a guided elk hunt will no doubt have more quality time on quality land than most all in staters.

And with most all things in life there are exceptions to this rule.

Dober

Dober , I'd argue the point about the non-res versus the res and whose got the most time and money tied up in the hunt all day long with ya . We gotta a pay a minimum of $500 for a bull tag and first ya gotta drive like hell for a day to even be near elk country...just no comparision in time and money invested.

Personally I'd take the 300 as an all arounder over the 25 , and especially if you are a handloader the old tale about too much recoil goes out the window . You can load the big case to any recoil level you want. And if you knew John better , you wouldn't ask him if he's ever hunted elk .

But for sure I know I want to visit joecool's place during elk season(grin)

SD-you're most likely right about the thing with John, I don't know him from Adam, and for all I know he's taken a slug on public land non guided elks...grin

As for Joe Cool's place it'd be a great place for a Fire get together to sanction some elk... (I'm all packed and waiting...)

Dober

Mark,
Would love to stop in and shoot some with you! I can use my own rifle too, as I have a 375Wby, and it even has a multi-reticle scope on it. The new scopes have made long range shooting much easier, but they haven't replaced frontal area or bullet weight, both of which the 300 has all over the 257.
Yep, have hunted with more than one fellow who carried a 257Wby and seen what they could do. Devastating on deer and antelope but the two elk I saw killed did nothing to make me want to start using one for that. To each his own is all I can tell ya!
As for my comments about us out of state hunters, there may be situations where we get as much field time as you do, but there aren't many of them...and we darned sure spend a lot more cash to do it.

The cash no doubt....well maybe depends on if you ask my wife or me...grin

I do likey my 375 Wby and if you get by we'll get out and get after it a bit. A 260 Accu at 2850 or so...is a heck of a long range yote rig!

I seen a fair number of elk taken over the years from 22/250's to 416's. For the most part you wreck the lungs and things are over quickly. But then from time to time you meet that bull that just has to be the exception and or maybe it's the cows.

I've seen enough elk killed with the 257 and the 270 to know they're pretty much the same and if pointed correctly day in and day out there'll be lil or no issues.

Let me know if you're gonna get this way, where do you live now?

Many thx and sorry for the thread diversion gang.

Dober

Still stuck in the midwest. I've not been up in your country in several years, been spending most of my hunting time in CO. or NM. Have several friends up in Cody,WY that want me to come visit and do a bit of hunting with so if that comes to pass I'll try to extend the trip and get up your way. BTW...killed my first elk just outside of Cooke City many years ago. The drive over Beartooth Pass still ranks as one of the best in the west.

Edit. Ever tried R15 in the 375H&H with those 260s? I can just about match the 375Wby for velocity with that bullet. They shoot flat but that short stubby bullet just doesn't compare to the 200gr 30cal. or a 160-175gr 7mm.

I do agree he is a nice fellow ... not to be a smart-a$$ though, who hasn't DaveH traded or swapped with here on the 24HCF??? I think that list may be a bit shorter


Dat 270ROY Deluxe is still dancin' in the back of my mind!!

avagadro is just trying to horn in on the trip with Daveh and me.

Excellent point!

How am I doing?

depends on if you're driving us there in that 10 gallon-per-mile rig, and if you need gas money.

It did not seem that I was irritating anyone when I posted it.

The subject is all around western rifle, [So] if you show up with it at white mountain and can't use it, it would seem in my mind not to qualify as an all around western rifle.

John....pack that 3/8" Roy full of Ramshot Hunter under the Accus....the Roy will go 'round the H&H like a Corvette passes a Mack truck....

Somehow I just can't let this one go, though it appears there are more brick walls on this thread than on most.

David plainly stated in the very first post that he also has a .375 H&H. I believe that would qualify for White Mountain Apache, though he didn't mention any plan to go hunting there. The first couple pages also contained several different posts suggesting using the .375 only on really big stuff (like trophy elk, Alaskan moose, big bears, etc.), and the .257 Weatherby only for game up to meat elk in size.

But somehow the whole thing was reduced to another cyberspace fire-and-brimstone rant-and-rave over whether to use the .257 Weatherby or the .300 Winchester Magnum to shoot giant bull elk at 600 yards-along with the standard potshots at the ethics and character of people who would consider either possibility.

The .375 Weatherby will get about 100 fps more than the .375 H&H, when both are loaded to the same pressure in the same barrel length. That isn't exactly lapping the field.

This whole thread has gone so far beyond reality that it shoukd die a violent death.

I bought this 375 H&H from Fosteology a while back. It's a sweet shooter, and doesn't recoil too hard with 270 grain TSXs.

257 and 375? looks like a winner to me...


[img][img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/PA1000021.jpg[/img][/img]

Yup.

Steve

MickeyD: Agree with that one. I had a bull live long enough to take just two steps before falling into Hells Canyon. I had let him reach and stop on a level terrace before lighting one off. He made a nice straight slide for about 400 yds before an antler dug in and the body piled up behind. Had that not happenend, he could have easily done another 400. I went back to camp and had him lashed to the hillside with every rope we owned before I started gutting and skinning.

Can't blame that on a 257 though, as I was using a 7 mm Rem Mag that day.

Personally, I'd rather use the 300 WM because I'd be happy with a 23" barrel in that chambering, whereas the 257 Wby would do better with a 25" bbl. I'd build the 300 WM around 7.5 lbs all-up and run a 180 at 3,000 fps or a 200 grainer at 2,850 fps and call it good. I'd think the 375 H&H and 300 WM would make an ideal "world battery."

OTOH, David W sells rifle significantly faster than I do, so any recommendation is probably moot (grin).

The 257, however, is a great round and totally elk-capable on any elk including genuine elkasaurus.

I once was sitting on a ridge looking for Wapiti at daybreak and heard a "BANG" very close by. Walked over to where I'd heard the shot and found an older gent with a nice five pt on the ground. I was pretty surprised as the man was well over 60 years old, and the ridge I was on was a brutal and steep clilmb. Talking, he mentioned he'd taken the bull with a 270 WBY and told me he preferred his old 257 WBY as he'd taken over 30 bulls with it and had only recently started with the 270 WBY which, he said, kicked more and didn't kill elk any deader.

Hard to argue with that...

Gas is cheap now!!

BTW ... when is the SCI banquet and where do I get a couple tix ... Sara had a hoot @ last year's shcing ding.

Nice rifle!

It is not worth the energy of an argument, but I reserve the right to disagree with anyone about anything in a discussion.
Differences are what makes conversation.

John,

Wish I could take credit for anything other than seeing a good deal and taking it. Shoots like magic. NP3'd, bedded in a McMillian, has the Magnum Resources top that takes Remington rings, etc. I love it.

If you're free the weekend of the banquet (below) you could meet a ton of 24hourcampfire guys....

Avagadro,

SCI banquet is 22 Feb at the Red Lion in Pasco. Call me at work, we can discuss.

Brad, obviously you're all wrong. .300 should have 23.5" tubes and .257 obviously 25.5"! <smirk>

I had no idea that was possible.......grin

Just teasing Brad.

StrayDog,

I apologize for jumping on your post. Here I am suggesting some of us should be more civil (which I've suggested here before), yet I saw your post as another brick on a pile of previous bricks.

It wasn't--though it did overlook the .375 solution. But it wasn't uncivil, and I when I finally reacted to the direction of this thread my frustration appeared to be taken out on you. I didn't intend that.

Effin Traitor!

I'll never again sell you a heavy 9.3X62 that drives tacks...

Who ended up with it? I almost tried to buy it back. But, I've gone to using my 257 Bob AI and 7X57 AI in LW rifles.

Do them elkasaurus get bigger than our moose that are killed by sub magnum calibers year in and year out?...grin

Western hunting can include a good rag-dolling from a grizzly.Thus voids the 257.

I would prefer a good 30 cal (or up) for grizzlies.

Not just griz..Everything

David,

Hey, it takes taste and perspicacity (how's that for a word?) to grab one like that.

Would love to make the banquet. Probably won't, but thanks for the invite.

The 260 AccuBond is a great long-range bullet in the .375.

340boy,

You mean like a .375?

Hey, I have a 375 that would make a nice bear rifle, John!

I may even have to give that 260gr Accubond a try, who knows...

Uh Oh....now the Elk are being compared to Grizzlies! Man these are some tough elk!...grin

Idaho elk are iron plated, AC.

For chits and grins lets go ahead and reclassify them....Ursus Arctos Elkasaurus Horribilis!

Planning an elk rifle around the idea of a grizzly is like marrying the fat girl because someday the skinny gal "might" get fat...

Brad,
Now that you put it THAT way, maybe a 257 ain't a bad idea...

My oh so very simple father in law would get a good chuckle out of you guys. Having killed mule deer with a 223 and lots of elk with a 243, 270 and a 25-06. If you asked him which was the best gun for elk hunting, he'd say....the one you got in your hands!

Your old man stole my line!

Currently packing a 308... yes, in big, bad grizzly country (grin).

I know more guys in Idaho(not a bunch, mind you) that have killed plenty of elk with the 270win and 150gr partitions than with anything else.
If I had to guess, I would say the 300WM with 180gr partitions would be the 2nd most popular-but, that is just a guess.

Tim, sounds about right here too... I sort of suspect the 270 might be top dog here, followed by the 300 WM, then 7 RM, and 30-06 probably fourth... who knows?

Brad,
is your elk season still going, if so, it must be some COLD hunting!
brrrrrr.

They all good brother!

Tim, ends Sunday. Was out yesterday with Dober... we gave chase, no results. I showed up late and "tracked" him to where he was glassing. Was -24F in the morning (ouch).

Here's a pic from yesterday:

What a beautiful scene, Brad.
Dang, wish I was out there with you guys!



BTW, good hunting to you,Brad(you still have a few days... )

Now that would be a kick!!! Do some hunting combined with some fishing, crabbing and clam digging. And of course some shooting.

That's just funny, I don't care who you are.

I got room in the Land Cruiser for 5 guys and gear, should anyone fly into Eugene. And a horizontal surface to sleep on as long as they aren't too high-falutin' for the likes of my humble abode.

Just sayin' <grin>!

Just buy a 300 WM (Win or Weatherby) if you want to burn up all those bullets. I myself would probably choose a plain, boring 30-06.



That particular rifle currently resides in So Dak. Although it is now a 9.3x64 Brenneke. Getting a paint & Cerakote job as we speak.

Quit reading more into it.Never compared f/a.My western hunting includes griz peroid..You [bleep] guys will jump on anything or anybody for kicks..Disgusting

I agree with you, 7.
I would take a 300 WM if I had even a chance of running into a griz over any lesser caliber.

.270 WCF with strong modern bullets will do it all.

Just teasing 7, deep breath brotha!

Never shot an elk, but I have shot a few elk-sized game and larger. everyone that knows me will attest I LOVE my 257 Weatherby, but it simply would not do for me on an animal as large as an elk. Will it kill it? I'm sure it will, hell Roy Weatherby killed all sort of game with it in Africa, but it simply will not hold a candle to a 300. In my view the 300 Weatherby is arguably the best all around caliber, covering just about 95% of the world's game. As for the 375, great caliber, love mine and I've seen it kill a kudu at 350 plus yards, but no way I'd lug one of those around. The 300s just "scream" perfection for the applications inquired about here. As to recoil, what recoil? unless you're some kind of girly-man or have some affliction, the 300's recoil is simply quite manageable. The 257 is great for antelope & deer, but then again with a ~168gr bullet, the 300 will get the job done and it sure as hell will give you a lot more room to maneuver than a 257 when it comes to elk. Lastly, I'm frankly astonished at the "recoil sensitivity" issues proffered here. jorge

Love my .257 Roy, and .300's too....but for the past several years a lw 700 in .270 ROY trumps them both. Flatter shooting than either and enough bullet weight to get it done. Mooose, bear, caribou, elk, deer, goat, sheep, in the freezer or on the wall.

LC

No problem Cubby.
What gets me about this thread is how the 257 is being of all the rage is simply not the better choice for any western big game hunting.Still at times I believe if the gunwriters said the Red Rider BB gun was a moose gun people here would be lining up to follow them off the cliff.

When I lived in Anchorage, we flew each year to King Salmon for moose hunting. I had a 300 Weatherby and the local guy, Alan Evans, a native, always asked why white people carry cannons instead of sneaking closer to the game.

Allen had one arm, and an iron-sighted Remington model 7 in 308 win. Of course, Allen had almost all fall to hunt (subsistence), and had the rifle in he truck or the boat 24/7.

Arguably, he had more and better opportunities than me to nail a moose with 308. Now, I've hunted moose with my 308, and as stated earlier, slew lots of game with it. But, sometimes, when you have five kids, a day job, and a squadron of Air Force reserve engineers to command in the middle of a war, time is short.

So, I practice two weekends a month at the local range, and I build confidence in my ability to hit at 200-500 yards. I need wallop down range, not on my newly repaired shoulders. The 257 Weatherby seems to fit that bill.

No slight on the 300 win mag (confession: I have one of those, too), but you can shoot a lot more 257 before your shoulder hurts, and trigger time = accuracy in the field. At least for me it does. The rest is up to my proper or improper selection of bullet to match the game. Even that is a no-brainers with the 120 grain partition and the 100 grain TSX available in .257 cal.

David, this kind of caught my eye and I gotta ask, this was said pretty much TIC right? Point being you do practice more than this don't you?

Thx

Dober

I would like to know - IN ALL HONESTY -

How many men with a family that have a minimum 40hr work week make it to the range more than 24 times a year?

I bet not many......

My boys love to shoot (thank God), so I go as often as I can.

Averages out to twice a month,

Thx for the correction dave, my bad...need more diet dew and oj this morn. I had it in my head that he said 2 weekends for one month (as in only one month) a year...

Sorry for the cofusion

Dober

(side note, I do get out to the one of my ranges more than 24 x's a year and I normally work 50-60 a week.

Dober

My dad helped teach me how hunt & shoot & learn how to effectively put game on the ground. Know your rifle & your abilty to effectivly use it. That said, I'd not hesitate to hunt any critter that walks the North American continent with a .257 via TSX...even Ursus Horribilus...Is it the best or even a GOOD choice? Nope...Is a 300 wby a better choice??? Yep....338 WM even better....point is, as Clint Eastwood often says...a man's gotta know his limitations...

It's never about limitation's it's experience.

Experience & skill=Limitations

Finally and THANK YOU.

Freud?

Nope just agree..

Yep.

I am amazed that such a question could stir up any amount of conversation in that it is so obvious that the 300 would be the best "all around caliber" of the two..The 257 is a fine caliber but it's not in the same class as the 300 for the all around catagory, end of story....

IIRC it was Sitkadeer that said...it's not the arrow...it's the indian.....That's my story & I'm sticking to it....

+7982

You know I do Dave!!! But it really helps when I don�t have to leave the house to shoot. If I don�t make at least one of my guns rattle after a few day�s I start having withdraws. After the price of fuel being so high shooting was one of the cheapest forms of entertainment I had the last few years.

You are a lucky man joekool544. With only a dozen steps from the door to the bench, you have no excuse not to shoot!

Obviously, with 21 pages of posts, this is a hot topic!

Maybe it can all be explained by age and experience.

I have now been hunting big game, in North America and many other places, for nearly 50 years.

For the first 7 years, my 'all around' rifle was the sporterized '03 Springfield '06 I got for my 14th Christmas.

From age 21 to 45, the 7MM Rem. Mag. was the weapon of choice.

From 45 to 55, it was the .300 Wby. Mag.- mostly because African plains game got added to the mix.

Now, from 55 to 60 something, I find myself picking up the lesser calibers, like the .257 Weatherby and the .280, for everything I hunt.

Last week's elk hunt found the .257 in my hands. It was the perfect choice for the game and the range at which it was shot.

What it really boils down to, at least for me, is that the smaller calibers are just more fun to shoot- and as they take more and more big stuff, I really can't see a difference in the way they kill game, compared to the big .300.

Well I have more guns and different calibers than one man should own every caliber from .223 to .358 I have three .257 Wby�s two 25-06 AI�s and truly love them they are great rigs for sure. But if I had to get rid of all of my guns and just keep one it would be one of my .300 Wby�s.

Edited to add� I don�t have anything in 6.5 or 8mm

The 300 win mag is obviously the better choice for a all around rifle,Far more versatile ,not much else one can say... If a guy was just hunting deer,antelope etc. the 257 would be a awesome choice.

Sneaking suspicion...
That whatever someone else uses for a caliber, powder, primer, bullet, brass, barrel, scope or truck has absolutely no impact on my general health, happiness or well being.

Unless they're shootin' at ya or tryin' to run ya over Fred......haha

I agree 110% with that. I load it for 375 Wby in a vintage FN/Sako and sight in for 300 yds...killed my elk at 400 yds with it last year and have nothing negative to say about the bullet.

Well, I'm getting older now, and for me, an elk hunt would be a hunt of a lifetime. I choose to use lesser calibers now, but for Mr. Elk it would be my M70 300WM with a 180NP. It will do 1", and I can handle the recoil. I believe in big bullets for big animals..simple as that. A bigger faster bullet can only be better if you have confidence in your rifle and your shooting ability.

David's first post.



David made it very clear he was deciding which cartridge for
western big game hunting, the 257 or the 300.

Never once did he mention the 375 as a choice.



We gave him our opinion's.

I gave my opinion, a 7.5 lb all-up 300 WM with the barrel cut to 23", and running 180's or 200's.

OTOH, the 257 WBY is perfectly fine choice for any Western game, including elk. For me, it's out because I wouldn't want one with less than a 25" bbl., and I don't want to carry a rifle with a 25"+ bbl.

It's less about the round than it is what houses the round for me...

No smoke poles for me either Brad.

fwiw, I've dumped all my cartridges that wear girdles and all the smoke poles are gone.
Just ordered a MK 2 with dotz and turret to try out. I'm hoping the dotz don't cover to much of the target at distance.

Funny, I've looked REALLY hard at that scope and think it may very well be one of the smartest scopes around.

Me, I'm content with just the dots. I used the 3-9x40 LR to take a bedded antelope at 547 yards using the post... it wasn't too big on that small a target at that range, and the dots will be used closer in and will never be an issue.

I wish Leupold had one more dot in the LR so I could extend mine to 650 yards with the bottom post. As it is, I'm completely comfortable out to 600 yards (windless) with the bottom post.

I see your point, dialing is kinda of fun to do. Spin it and hit it, especially on rocks out at 800 yards using a 6 or 7 lb mountain rifle.

And yeah, I wish there was another dot as well or line.

Trust me...they won't. You will love that scope.

Edited to add: As you know I've got that scope on my little 223AI. I think it's a perfect compromise.

I like having the dots for predetermined zero ranges (300, 400 and 500 yards? Or whatever your round and zero provide). So for a critter that may move quickly, like a skitterish coyote, they're great.

But if you have a rangefinder and the time, use the turret to dial in to hit the crosshairs. It's hard to beat!

Cool Rick, cool.

Yeah, that 3-9 MKII might just be the best of all worlds... I've been sorely tempted to put one on my 300 WSM but will probably go the other direction and put a 6x36 LR on it...

Brad, my pet 280AI wears a 6X42 with the LR reticle retrofitted. As our mutual friend would say, it's "model perfect".

6x is just "right" for all the hunting I do. All my scopes have been left at 6x for the past five or six hunting seasons and I've never seen a need for more or less.

I thought hard on that 6x36 as well.

Here's that "mutual friend" as seen day before yesterdday with his Lilja barreled 270 Win, G33 Mauser with 6x36LR on top...

Your "Friend" has good taste in wool!

With the technology available like photoshop, you couldn't make him look any more handsome than that?!?!?

No one ever posted their favorite 168 grain load, though.

LOL. Well, we're trying... he's called "Dober" for a reason (grin).

Perhaps a lot of us think the reason for a 300 mag is stuff in the 180-200 grain weight...

Mark is a smart fella!

Yea, but I don't know why he got rid of his KOM gaiters;..I now have two pair and love 'em.

He is a handsome fella isn't he?

Yeah,yeah,....I know what HE looks like......I even have the same wool......I wanna see the G33/40.......

that G33/40 of Dober's sounds like a nice rifle!!

Glad I listened last spring and bought a 6x36LR for my old .270. It doesn't get any simpler sorting out the dots and with the fixed 6 there's no possibility screwing up the power setting before the shot.
I might sell the Conquest Z600 on the .300WSM(which BTW,likes 168TTSXs) and go with a 6x42LR just to match the two rifles up.

What pack does the Doober have in the pic Brad?


You should strap the lunker Zeiss on your .308 Brad.....haha

168 TSX and 73 grains of Hunter powder win brass and primer. Accurate and fast.

This load has killed 6 bison and 2 elk.

Looks like a Badlands.

That's kinda what I was thinking.

found some RL17.....

and bought a 5 pounder

What are you doing wasting time here? Do some loads for the 300 win and 257 and report back to us!

I had to order it from an out of state supplier. It's due into his location by tomorrow.

Don't tell anyone, but it was Bruno's.

I've just caught up on this thread. Is everyone really as sceered of a 300 as they make out to be? Damn! You better bet that I'd be one of those easterners that shows up in camp with a win mag! If you think that'd be a problem then we could shoot for it. I aint afraid of a 300 but a 257 on elk at 600 scares the shiit out of me! (am I crazy or did one of David's original post mention 400-600 yard shots? I know I read it somewhere, maybe another thread? Or has there been some selective editing going on to fit the purpose?)

BTW, those idiots that show up with a 300 WM and can't hit the side of a barn, it'd be the same story if they were shooting a 243. Don't blame the caliber cause it's such an obvious choice that even the morons know to choose it.

I think that what many hunters fail to understand is that with the bullets made today the need or selection of calibers alters quite a bit. When you are putting non cup and core bullets through and through with many smaller calibers that would not have performed the same way with the bullets of yesteryear, the bigger calibers IMO are just not needed. Look at all the guys running 130,150 and 165/168 grain bullets in 30's these days, that just plain laugh at the belief that you need 180-200 grain bullets in the same caliber. I have yet to recover a 165 grain TSX out of my 300WSM and that includes complete through and throughs on our moose which are a wee bit bigger than any big bull elk. I say pick what you want to hunt with but some folks just aint receptive to anything but that which they know. Looking at the damage that a 100 grain TSX did to a 300 lb caribou at over 400 yards , I'd not hesitate to shoot anything in this continent with it, with the exception of intentionally hunting our bigger bears with it. If some guys would open their minds and at least take a look at whats going on around them, they might learn a thing or two. Have never seen any animal I have shot, from a 1400 lb bull moose to a fox that didn't die quickly when shot in the right place, and this has been with a truckload of different calibers, some guys just dont put chit in the right place and feel they need an insurance policy is how I see it. I have never personally killed an elk, but I have seen elk killed first hand and I dont see what all the hoopla is about, they dont die any harder than anything else to me.

Even with the Barnes AC the 257 will never be the correct choice for all western big game hunting.

It may "NEVER" be the correct choice for you but it could very easily be the correct choice for me, thats all I am saying. Theres no right or wrong here.

Bah Humbug

AC-I hear you about the damage the TSX did on your bou. I took a friend for a bruin hunt this spring and he used my 6/06 and the 85 TSX, the damage that bullet did to said bruin was pretty incredible.

My worries here and not to turn this into a will the TSX work or not deal as this thread has already gone all over the place but is if the bullet doesn't work (open) then what. And I can honestly say I've seen more wonky things from X's, XLC's and or TSX's than all of the other bullets ever put together. (this fall alone I've found 3 TSX's, one opened model perfect and the other two didn't open at all (bascially).

Guess if I were really worried about this I'd just run a 115 NBT or a 115 PT or a 120 SAF in the 257 Bee and not worry one iota.

There that should give this thread another 3 or so pages...grin

Dober

Then I shoot again!...grin

I dont remember if you recall some of my uncertaintys after using the TSX out of my 338 WM for the first time when I backed my boy up on a 7ft over 400lb black bear a couple springs ago. Lots of what ifs , coulda shouldas, but if theres anything that Alaska has taught me, its how to rack another shell and stay on target, and thats really not because of ungulates but more because of bear hunting. The what ifs on bullet failure to me exist with any bullet loaded into any case filled with any powder and charged by any primer...cant really control anything past squeezing the trigger, cept I may squeeze it again depending on what I see!

AKcub, I'm not much qualified to speak of the TSX as I've only killed one critter with it, a bull elk at 545 yards from a 300 WM and the 168TSX at 3200fps. Very little bone was hit and look what I found. I hear all the stuff around here about the TSX being a sure pass through I and guess that might be the case at closer ranges. How do you recon a 257 would have faired?

We, my son and I, shot two elk this fall using the 168gr tipped TSXs in our 300mags. His was shot at a lazered 310yds broadside, he hit the near shoulder and bullet did not exit. Never found the slug as it was dark when we dressed it out, but it made it through the chest cavity from the looks of things. Mine was taken from a ways further out and it passed through after messing up the lungs, no major bones hit. I didn;t see nearly as much damage to the internals as I expected. Had better experiences with the same bullets on mule deer...but they're a good bit smaller than a 6x6 bull elk. Yes, they shoot great, but there is still something to be said for a nice big mushroomed slug plowing through an animals vitals. Does Swift or North Fork make any 180gr slugs for those 257s?

Well this gent was shot at about 100 yards with a 180 TSX doing 3300fps out of a 300 Wby the bullet sure wasn�t a complete pass through, stuck in the ribs on the other side and fell back inside when dragging it around never did find it.

Next year I shot a bull at just over 500 yards with a .338 RUM using a 210 TSX it didn�t exit ether and I never found the bullet.

I have also seen a 100gr barnes out of a 257 Wby fail to get past ribs at 350 yards on an elk that was really hard to believe.

That is one amazing photo!

Exactly.........

Utah708 had two "failures" to exit on an elk this season using what I am remembering as 210-gn TSX's from his 338wm. They weren't 225's this much I am sure of. Joecool mentioning 215's has me cornfuzed.

Meanwhile my pard got two exits with AB's from his 338... Go figure!

The ability to hurl a nice big bullet, and NOT have to rely on a TSX, is one thing that slam-dunks the 300 win mag as the obvious choice here- IMHO.

Dober, I sure wish you'd mess more with the AI version of the NBT- the Accubond <grin>...

I've seen a Hornady bullet from a .375 High Energy loading pass through a yearling bull moose at 500 yards, broadside.

It's a bit disturbing to note Joe Cools experience with a 100 gr X not getting past the ribs of an elk; but I'm not shocked by it.That's the kind of crazy shidt that happens when you try to turn small calibers into elk rifles.

Caliber does matter and no, all cartridges are not the same.Similar cartridges are "similar",but no 257 is as good as a 30 caliber as an elk rifle.

Nice elk. I loaded some 180 tsx in my weatherby at 3300 fps. Seemed a little hot but after a box full using wby brass appears to be a good load. Easy to hit out to 500 yds with.

I would say the .30 mag is the best western cartridge for me, maybe not for any one else, although I shoot a wby because it is waaaaayyyy better than any winchester round (there both to short).

Both cartridges are good flat shooting buggers, which doesn't matter if you have dotz or know your weapon.

After a couple pages of this thread I started thinking I might need a .257 wby but after reading the entire thing I might join PETA and take up golf or yoga.

Looking at that picture makes me want a beer.

Strange, as Mule Deer often notes, that you can eat right up to the hole and people opine about bullet failure.

Seems to me, and maybe I read wrong, that all of the TSX "failures" listed were noted on bulls they had killed. No?

When a bullet looks like a bent banana and didn't open I think it's a failure even if the animal died... especially a bullet that costs $35 per 50ct.

I believe you're jumping to conclusions. "Failure" in each post above was in reference to passing through, which is 100% factual. My point was that at longer ranges I'd sure not want a 257.

BTW, did your original post not reference long range shots from 400-600 yards? I know for certain that I read that somewhere but I can't seem to find it now.

+1

LC

Brad,

I didn't see any BBB (Bent Babanna Bullets) in the thread.

Not on this thread, Chuck Nelson had one this year, as did Mark Dobrenski, as did I... that's three guys that all know each other in one season.

I'm going back to copper/lead bullets...

I don't think any of have said these bullets failed to kill the game, we're just giving examples of what can happen with a bullet of this type. Nothing is 100%, but if a bullet isn't going to open up on occasion, I want more than a 25cal hole. Also, as has been mentioned here on several posts, with today's multi reticle scopes about anything can be used for long range shooting. Given that, I'd pick a 30/06 or a 280 if I was recoil sensitive, at least then you have the bullet weight and diameter to get the job done when things don't work as they should.

And I do not see where anyone claimed the TSX failed to do anything other than pass through.

This oft repeated homily "Well, the animal died so we can't call it bullet failure" is silly, tiresome and ludicrous.
If someone shoots an animal with an appropriate cartridge, and a bullet normally expected to be used on that animal at impact velocities the bullet was designed for, and the bullet does not provide a reasonable amount of penetration and a reasonable amount of expansion, it's bullet failure.
By the way, has anyone every seen or known of a legitimate bullet failure on elk with a 180 grain Hornady Interlock, or 180 Nosler Partition?

Royce

I stand corrected.

I have to note that this has been 27 pages of rock 'em sock 'em fun so let's continue with:

Given you choose the 300 Win Mag, what's you favorite elk load or all around load?

I already have dogzapper's favorite 257 load as well as Mule Deer's

Your getting a kick out of this thread huh David?...grin

Don't know of any failures with those bullets you described.Killed lots of critters with that 190 BTSP Interlock from my 300.Awesome cup core bullet.

I've only hunted elk for two years and shot at two elk so I'm not exactly an expert. Killed them both, one with a .277 140gr Partition and the other a .308 168 TSX. The shots were not comparable, the partition was 100 yards and the TSX was 550 yards. The Partition at 100 yards was a complete shoulder pass through with a 140 bullet. I speculate that a Partition in 308 would have performed better than the 168 TSX did at 550 yards. The 168 knived through, I want more trauma.

I will hunt elk again next year and it will be with a Partition, I have no fear that it will explode on impact at close range and I'll bet that it'd be more reliable given a long range shot, though I'd not worry if I had to use the TSX.

It was one of the better questions I've asked.....

Disregard my response, I read .308 not realizing it was a 300 WM.

180 Nosler partition,200 Nosler Partition,165 Bitterroot.

Bent Banana Bullets? I had one with a 225-gr Nos Part out of a .340 Bee

Hey, David, don't I get to list my favorite loads for the .300 Winchester too?

ABSOLUTELY!

He listed none............

73.0 Reloder 19, 168 TSX. Haven't killed any elk with this one, but suspect it would do. Have killed a typical mule deer that grossed around 195, with one of those raking shots that Elmer Keith liked.

75.0 H4831 (either Short Cut or Retro), various 180's. This is my "test load" for the .300 Winchester: If a rifle doesn't shoot this combo well, there's something wrong with the rifle. Of course it also kills stuff. It can be a little warm in some rifles with some bullets, so I usually start around 72.0 grains.

72.0 Reloder 19, 180 Nosler E-Tip. Tested this one thoroughly in Africa last year, just as the E-Tip was announced. It worked very well on a bunch of stuff from 100-pound springbok at long range to 500-pound blue wildebeest up close. I haven't seen anything wonky happen withe E-Tips yet, but have only seen about 20 used on various animals from 1 coyote to a couple of big elk.

78.0 Ramshot Magnum, 200 Nosler Partition. I have used a couple of other powders with this bullet since I started using the .300 Winchester about 20 years ago. Had to, since Magnum wasn't around then. But this load has gotten the highest 200-grain velocities. It works both near and far on elk. Shot a 6-point bull in the big shoulder joint as quartered to me at 75 yards a few years ago, and the bullet not only took out the shoulder but exited the rear of the rib cage.(Dunno why some people don't think Partitions won't penetrate.) Ramshot data lists a little more powder as max, but 78.0 was tops in my last .300 Winchester.

Since I've a pile of H4831SC I'll try #2 with the 180 Partition.

I'd appreciate hearing the results.

Brad, I remember Chuck and Dober's wonky TSX issues but must have missed your's.
You(or someone) have a link or details?

Thanks, Sam

I have to comment here on this as I just read your thread on your elk this year (which by the way was a dandy bull!). This is what you wrote in your story...

"The shot was hard quartering away, the bullet went through about 1/3 from the bottom nearly half way back (guts) and through the opposite shoulder and lodged just under the skin. "

You then went on to mention this

" Minutes go by and he's still standing there. My buddy walked a few hundred yards to get a better angle. He sets up the spotting scope. Probably 15 minutes pass and the bull finally lays down. A few more minutes pass and he tries to stand but can't. I'm starting to feel good about it. A few more minutes pass and the bull stretches his nose to the sky in attempt to draw air. Every few minutes he repeats the gasp. He's in his death bed. Finally after about 45 minutes he takes his last gulp of air.The bullet struck a rib, punctured one lung (missed the heart), went through the lower part of the shoulder, and the hide stopped it."

Then as you second guess the Barnes TSX that was not well placed you then say this....

"Weight retention was nearly 100% and with perfect petals. It did its job but it took a while. I only hit one vital, a lung, and barely clipped the shoulder. It was a very clean pass through, not very tramatic. Luckily the bull layed down within ten yards of the shot and we watched him for nearly 45 minutes before he expired. I feel a more explosive bullet would have inflicted more trauma and he would not have made it as long. "

Now I am not gonna dog you because I am well aware that chit happens in the field, but your last statement is really what keeps coming up when folks depict Barnes performance negatively. You said " I feel a more explosive bullet would have inflicted more trauma" . What is more explosive and more trauma? Were you hoping that the bullet would devate from the path you sent it on and then explode once it penetrated the guts and instead of nearly puncturing one lung it would have detonated and blown them both up and took the heart with it? This was a 548 yard shot at a "Hard" quartering away bull elk, that you decided to take a shot at hoping to penetrate the entire gut sack, hit no bone and terminally end up somewhere in the vitals hoping something gets [bleep] up and kills it. I mean c'mon man, you made a good shot (distance wise), obviously not the best angle on an animal that size and you were fortunate enough to have used a bullet that actually penetrated through a less than desireable path through a large animal. I would question how other bullets would have performed given the route you chose personally. Cant answer why you didn't move for a follow up shot with your partner, but I am guessing that if you had opted for a better shot angle from the git go, it wouldn't have taken 45 minutes for the [bleep] to die. Could just be me.....but I'd say to some degree that the 168 grain Barnes TSX saved your azz based on what I just read! Premium bullets (Barnes specifically)aint magic, they still have to be placed in the right places just like any other bullet and I think a lot of folks just caint grasp that and then when less than magic happens they blame the bullet. What say you?

I would gave to agree with AlaskaCub; the bullet did its' job, expanded,reached the off side.I suspect the elk would not have lasted as long had both lungs been damaged. It did all that could be expected and a pass-through would not have mattered a lick;it really can't be assured with any expanding bullet, I think.

As I've stated before I've very little experience shooting game larger than whitetails. All I know is this. The bullet path was not very traumatic, I'd compare it to an arrow pass through. I've seen lots of deer killed with BT's and similiar bullets resulting in massive internal damage. I know that you wouldn't want to shoot an elk with a fragile bullet but I want a happy medium resulting in more explosive damage than what I saw with the TSX.

Does that make sense?

Shakin my head here. Just freekin unbelievable.

Asolutely it makes snse, but you got to remember......PLACEMENT supercedes caliber, no matter what, when your talking about big critters! I have seen moose walking around with their sides ripped open (by a bear) guts hanging out,faces avulsed, broken legs, gut shot by arrows, hit by trucks, and they live for days or weeks wounded like that. To me an elk is no different. Use whatever bullets suit you, but dude you cant ask for a better result IMO based on how your elk hunt went down. And if you are gonna plan on taking similar shots at that range and at those angles in the future, I'd say your currently using the best bullet for the job!

BTW, not once have I ever even insinuated that the bullet failed.

Also, I must admit that when given the angle my first thought was that I was shooting a TSX, let her rip! Can't say that I'd have felt the same way with any other bullet, based on perception alone.

It is freekin unbelievable isn't it. Next year I hope to make it three for three.

FWIW...You just earned some kudo points from me by saying that because I would bet money that many guys using them (especially for the first time) are thinking the same thing as they squeeze the trigger on a less than desirable shot. They aint magic bullets, they dont make huge mushrooms, they dont explode, but they do break chit, make an adequate wound channel and penetrate like a mo fo. Incidentally they also tend to shot with superb accuracy (at least for me). And IMO without getting into ethics, they have allowed some guys to take some shots and harvest some critters that normally would have resulted in a bad sichiation! Dont second guess your bullet, instead second guess taking that kind of shot in the future. The TSX saved your azz this time, but it might not the next! But damn sure dont hate it for what it did!

I'm trying to get to the one bullet thing with the 300. 180 partition for everything?

Thats another whole thread (grin)

Friend Dave,

Who woulda thunk that your simple question would have resulted in a thread this long. And some of the responses were downright emotional.

Your question, as I remember it, was about the elusive All-Around Western Rifle." Most folks shoot a few meat elk and lots of deer and antelope and a few black bears. For this use, it doesn't take a cannon and it also does not take a particularly heavy bullet.

Heck, the best elk hunter I ever guided used a .308 and 150 Hornadys. And he never shot twice, that I recall. The man could shoot, the man had a self-imposed range limitation of 200 yards, he had the patience to wait until the elk positioned himself right and he placed the shot to hit both lungs and (hopefully) the aorta.

My biggest antlered critters have fallen to fairly small cartridges and regular bullets, but the bullet placement was adequate and the elk/mooses were most sincerely dead. All of these were killed on hunts when I had the large animal tag in my pocket, but was actually hunting and prepared for whitetail or mule deer and the chance of an elk/moose was quite low.

The Gods of the Hunt seemingly get a charge out of catching Steve in the field with 120-grain Ballistics in the gun and throwing him a moose. Surprise; they die just fine.

Big bears and trophy elk are a seperate category, but a fella would probably know when he's hunting them.

Anyway, watching this thread, this circus, from afar has been great fun. Nothing to get emotional about; those with experience know and those with no experience don't; and only experience in the field is the teacher.

Merry Christmas to you and Andrea and the whole Clan.

Steve

FWIW I witnessed a whitetail doe shot at 30 yards from a 257 WBY using 100gr Horn Interlocks. The shoulders were smashed with a clean pass through and the damage indicated that the bullet held together well. Given the velocity I gained a little respect for that little pill.

You might want to watch a few more shot like that before giving it too much respect.

I have seen quite a few animals shot with the .25-caliber 100 Hornady Spire Point, and it does a lot better than most people would assume, even at pretty close range at pretty high impact velocity. In fact I have a couple of friends who use it by choice in the .257 Weatherby for hunting big mule deer in eastern Montana. Of course, they rarely take a shot at much under 200 yards.

But the Spire Points have cores with a fairly high antimony content, and the jackets are stouter than some others as well. They will surprise you.

I'm pretty sure Elmer wouild be proud of you.

As Steve said, this has been a remarkable thread...or at least words to that effect.

I've whacked several mulies and whitetails, both in Alberta and Montana with a gain-twist barrel .25-'06 and 100-grain Hornady Interlockeds at a cool 3,500 fps.

Some of the shots have been remarkably close and some have stretched the barrel a mite. In thinking back, the combination has yielded about 15 kills for me.

The Hornady had always broken bone fine and all have exited, leaving a one- to two-inch exit wound and not bad bloodshooting. Occasionally, I'll get a cranberry sauce armpit, but every bullet, even premium ones, will do that and the Interlocked seemingly doesn't do it to excess.

I know that it is not Campfire or Internet PC to say that a common bullet works well under any conditions, but the .257 100-grain Hornady Interlocked has always given me perfect performance. It will be one of my prime picks when I fully develop my new Remington 700 SPS Stainless/Synthetic .257 Weatherby.

I'm a believer.

Steve

That doesn't surprise me. Back when I used to hot-rod more, I used to load the 100 Hornady up to 3300 fps from a 24" .257 Roberts, and it held together well.

The time I really remember is finishing off a friend's muley buck with a neck shot at very close range. The bullet didn't exit, but it did bust the spine, and ended up under the hide on the far side. Not bad for an impact velocity of around 3275 fps!

I'm with JB and DZ about the 100 Horn in a 25/06 and or 257 Wby. I used it for quite a time as did some other buds and always had super success with it on deer/elk/lopes/bruins/yotes/parrots....

One very good bullet!

Dober

Parrots?
sweet...

Just......wanted to see if anyone was still reading this dam thing...

Dober

That pretty much says it all.

Hey, what can I say, I'm bored tonight...

Actually, this has been a good thread in some ways, I am always interested in other, more experienced hunters picks in big game rifle calibers!

Hey Dober...

Sam, will put a post later in the month or new year...

Humm, thought it read EXPERIENCED.

Turn it ESPN2 Tim, Griz are playing in the championship.


Oh Ok, thanks Brad.

Wondered when the drunken sailor would arrive to the party!

Thanks, Sam!
Just wish it could have been the Cats...

Noticed you like the 'sailor' moniker, about right you little fudge packer.

Wow, you are drunk... not much of a come-back

About all you are worth, hoping that turd I dropped in Bozeman gave you some employment for the day.

Too funny... for a guy sucking government tit.

Yep, that's it. Tell me about the time you were involved in a rescue at sea or your employer stopped BILLIONS of dollars of drugs coming into the country, or you were in on the development of a ship designed for stopping the drugs, saving people, and national security and I'll tell you about 'sucking' on the government tit.

Merry Christmas.

Dude... you take yourself SOOOOO seriously.

Take a good dump... it'll clear your brain.

Merry Christmas

Back atchya.

What a great thread... Polite, informative, fun...

Until Steelhead showed up.

D�j� vu all over again...

Gee, just when this thread was starting to turn civilized.

It's halftime and the Griz are 3 touchdowns back.

Not looking good, but at least Richmond didn't score off the turnover.

What's up steely...hope things are going well for you this holiday season....

Back on the subject of the 257ROY....been playing with a Sub-MOA Vanguard...except for the crap trigger, been very impressed with the accuracy.

Using IMR7828 with the 100TSX: .5" groups are the norm, around 3550mv

RL25 with the 110AB, real fusy to get to shoot, but get sub 1" groups, usually .8" - .9"

Using H4350 with the 75VMAX, very accurate, hovers around .5".

Now for the question : not having much luck getting the 100NP to shoot, any suggestions from the crowd?

BTW, I just ordered 2 boxes of 100TTSX, just a little nervous about the TSX not opening up. Hope they shoot as well as the TSX though.

Also, going to carry the ROY the rest of the Va. season and try to bust a few does. Will report the results with the 100TSX.

Tony.

PS: From A fellow US tit sucker, AKA, Chief Engineer, Va. Class Sub Sonar System. I am the one who keeps the boats and sailors out of harms way....

Ignore Brad, think he has spent too much time at high altitude.......

Steelheads service is acknowledged and appreciated.

His relentless attempts to start fights around here... not so much.

Same with your guessing.

You know only a select few are targeted and deserving.

Yeah...?

Dober

The M100 "Steelhead" Precision Guided Munition?

I dunno, I'm fer thinking that's another military-industrial complex boondoggle right there..

<g>

Merry Christmas, you crazy buggers.

Steve

Good morning you drunken sailors, fudge packers, tit suckers, guessors, buggers, and parrots!

Morning

And a cold one it is, here in Tiny Town, Montana, the morning after the Griz got their butts kicked. But that's OK, because there's elk meat on the stove and more football on TV. It actually FEELS like Christmas this year, with real snow on the ground. Merry Christmas, everybody!

it is actually "buggerers," but redundant with drunken sailor anyway.

Cold and snowy around here today, we need a new thread to liven things up.
how about best 257 loads for western parrot hunting?

I find it amazing how sooner or later one's true colors come through bright & vivid. To label someone is the service as one [sic] sucking on a government tit I find so incredibly offensive and anti-American as to make me sick. I know you won't lose sleep over this Brad, but that was below the belt.

Oh, did I mention I'm retired now "sucking" on an 82K "gov't tit" retirement? But I guess in the end, it's been a grand experience, a couple of wars, some fun with the Lybians, etc, all sucking on that big tit, but then again, I'm a tit man all the way, and in the end, when asked "what did you do with your life" well, I won't have to say I shoveled cowshit in Montana....jorge

I was gonna go try and harass a coyote and some targets this morning but after checking the forecast decided to sleep in....I know, puzzy excuse...grin

I ain't much into freezing my azz off either, Sam!

You have a problem with that?



grin



Grouchy old douche.....

JB: Foot of snow here,too.So Montana holds no monopoly this year!More coming tomorrow,and "...it's begining to look a lot like Christmas....."

Merry Christmas to you,too!

Only if that was your only claim to fame, and choosing a 257 over a 300 for all around use.... jorge

Uh oh, here we go again...
grin

Just trying to stay on topic jorge

I would say you brought us back on topic, Jorge.

Don't cut those yotes any slack.

It feels like christmas here on the front range too. Covered up in snow, the smell of cookies, and people pushing each others buttons, ahhhh.. reminds me of home.

What's everybodies favorite breakfast beer? Newcastle here.

Jack Daniels and a .300WSM....grin

Sam Adams!

Ugh, I get a headache just thinking about that, Sam!

Diet dew and OJ for this kids...grin

Dober

And very slickly done, too.

Actually I have almost never seen cowshit being shoveled in Montana, because most of it is out there on the open range, where it adds to the general environment with its own little bit of nourishment. There are a few feedlots, however, where a tractor is used to shovel big piles.

Horseshit does get shoveled now and then off streets after a parade. I have personally shoveled a little pigshit and chickenshit when working on farms and ranches. This was when the ranch woman wanted her garden fertilized. But I can't recall ever shoveling any cowshit.

But but but....what if I were to have you choose between a 257 with a Preme in it and a 300 with a CnC...grins

Dober

The WSM really isn't as bad as some make it out to be...haha

How about we split the difference and go with a 7mm Mag of some variety with a Preme bullet.
End of story!

Hey, I meant the booze!
A guy can never have to many rifles of various calibers in his quiver.

Laughing Tim!



Stocktrailers JB. Good times...grin

By far the most I've seen shoveled is here on the Fire...grin

Dober

Ain't that the truth,Mark!

Hey Jorge, get over yourself... my comment was proceeded by the drunken little snit making the remark below... you obviously can't string together a coherent context for remarks made:

And it's mostly bullshit to be exact. Although there are a few stray campfire cows no doubt...

I have shoveled plenty of cowshit in Virginia but when you marry into a dairy farming family it was bound to happen!

Back on topic the wrong 300 was listed on the thread. The correct answer is 300 Roy.

Just in from a Waffle House run with the girls (4 and 7). Attire was shorts and flip flops. Its already nearly 80 degrees and the low tonight will barely dip below 60. Christmas in Dixie.......

-35 Today.

Thanks,Steve. Same to you and yours

"get over myself?" sorry, can't accommodate. Over 4 thousand hours flight time, nearly 600 arrested carrier landings and not quite as much "green ink" as others here, you just don't measure up. Grow a pair and admit your shotgun comment was over the top, unless that's what you think of folks in the armed forces and I'm ok with that. You can sling insults all you want but I just don't see the relevance of that one, again of course if that's what you really think.

John, the shovelingshit comment was taken from the movie Patton. He was referring to those who actually contributed and those who didn't.

jorge

Jorge, my old man was flew fighters, "served" and ended a flying career with over 24,000 flight hours... he'd think you're a self-important little jackazz...

Wow just because you served in the military and help protect America. You feel it�s Ok to turn around and look down on the Farmers and Ranchers that feed America cause they have to shovel a little [bleep]� Now that�s a class act.

So tell us, did your "old man" also suck of the gov't tit? I am in awe of his accomplishments, but obviously I overestimated your grasp of the tongue-in-cheek art. And your comments were still out of line. Why not just call him a jackass? Self-important? nah, just convinced. jorge

Forget any cartridge ending in "by" and get a good 30-06 or .308 Win.

Joe, it has nothing to do with farmers & ranchers, not at all. It was a simple funny line from the movie Patton and his exact quote was Louisiana. I just took umbrage at his "gov't tit" blanket statement. Look we all say things we wished we took back at times and maybe this is one of them, but I stand by my comment that it was out of line. jorge

Whether Steelhead is shoveling $hit, sucking tit, or standing as an inspirational mighty, beacon of freedom to us all with his tireless efficient and selfless service to his country, is irrelevant.

The guy gets his rocks off starting trouble around here... Or at least trying, in his juvenile way... Since it takes two to tango and most of us are too smart to dance with the little peckerhead, he's not as disruptive as he wishes he was... But he's still trying 24/7.

Jeff; starting up crap is the LAST thing I come to do here. If i gave that impression, then I need to re-calibrate, but I stand by what I said regarding the "tit" comment. jorge

Re. steely....I am not to sure about all the choices you've provided, I am fairly certain though, and steely would aggree, that he does in fact suck on t.its.......

You boys need to chill out...it is xmas, enjoy it.

Merry Christmas all...

Tony

No, not really Jeff. Been here for years and I'm not a person to post about that which I have no experience. I know you feel like the bastard but it's only because you continually bring up stupid subjects and go on about that which you have no experience. I only have issues with a few folks and those are the idiots that talk out their ass. You being the lead!

Besides, you voted for Obama......

I can see a "Cult of being a Victim" thread soon.......

P.S. I'm finished here, we can take this out of the forum it's in. Certainly not the place for victims.

jorge, my comment was in no way aimed your way. I worked for a guy flew almost 300 combat missions in Vietnam (F100) and was still flying in the NM National Guard (A7's, wishing for an upgrade to A10' s or F16's) when I worked for him. Jerry Key is his name, maybe you know him. I have a ton of respect for combat pilots, one, and two, you don't go around here tossing off insults trying to start fights like Steelhead does. When he's drunk and bored, it's almost comical to watch him go " fishing" for a fight.

Back when I first joined tv Fire, right after Big Stick got banned, ol' peckerhead AKA Steelhead had quite the pack that liked to follow him around and dogpile whoever he managed to start a fight with... Ask me how I know... The pack has dissapated and now he's just a pathetic little guy trying to amuse himself at the expense of others, and of the forum.

Merry Chistmas to you, and everyone else. Even Peckerhead.

<grin>

I'd rather have a pack of 10 arrogant [bleep] that actually know what they're talking about, than 100 dumb azzes asking stupid questions and wanting to group hug at the same time! To each his own?

Steelhead, you ignorant slut (anyone remember that SNL skit <g>?), here's the things we've disagreed on:

Hunting with a round in the chamber;

.223 is/isn't the best deer rifle;

Deer see blue or not, and the relevance of that to my style of deer hunting;

Intentionally shooting deer through the shoulder vs not;

Probably one or two others that escape me... Anyway, with the possible exception of the blue tape < grin>, it ain't ME that disagrees with you... It's 80+ percent of the Campfire.

You can be a PITA peckerhead ( I just LOVE my new nickname for you) with your little faction all you want, but the simple brutal truth is that on the topics we've crossed swords on, you are in the vast minority here.

Won't stop you from trolling for fights though... But it greatly adds to the amusement level of those participating...

Meanwhile, back at the 257 vs 300 agrument already in progress...

JO

This is really pretty funny. You came on here a couple of years ago saying you didn't know much and were here to learn. You've spent these years proving you don't know anything. Now you act like an expert because you quote what others have posted and you still don't know anything.

And I was on to your game long before Steely. I haven't said much lately because you've shown you are hopeless, but don't start trying to rewrite history and don't overestimate your relevance, not to mention importance, in these threads.

You are who you are, and that's sadly obvious.

Reminds me of the pot and kettle story........

toltec,

Find me claiming to be an expert on anything around here. You won't be able to. I am an expert in a couple things in this world, but not in the hunting arts. What I AM is someone who's been shooting since I was about 5 years old, puts thousands of rounds of HP rifle downrange every year and have been for the last 8-9 years, and who hunts hard and does well. I have a right to my opinion. That's a lot different than proclaiming myself to be an expert- which I have not, and do not.

The vast majority of us here are not experts, but this is an internet forum where people "cuss and discuss" things. Problem is, we have guys like PH who get their kicks lording over everyone and raising holy hell if you DARE to disagree with him- over perfectly reasonable things, over which perfectly reasonable people can disagree.

Review the little list of things good ol' PH has seen fit to cause a big stink over. I have to be an expert to prefer to hunt with a round in the chamber? To prefer to shoot a deer behind the shoulder rather than through it? To use a bigger cartridge than .223 on deer? That's laughable.

Toltec, page back a few pages and look at the entrance ol' PH made. Within TWO posts, he's here:



Simple fact is, he's been an ass to enough people, including me, that your "pard" is something of a pariah. Don't blame ME for that, and don't try to change the subject.

His [bleep] DOES stink, whether he's an "expert" or not, and I'm here to say it.

The big bears were handled nicely with 30-06's and 300 win mags in the 60's and 70's, suddenly, bears require cannon's......

JO, you should ask Toltecgriz to post up a pic.

Please forgive me you Blue Boy Ass Shooting whining little bitch........GRIN

That's between you and your god, PH...

<grin>

Ok, I'll bite.

Toltecgriz, post up a pic.

(???)

LMAO

Internet and all.

Gotta keep 'em honest. Anyone can type.

I'd say he's kilt more stuff than JO has seen, which ain't saying much. Be willing to bet he's been there and done it and I ain't into guessing.

Dude, now I'm laughing.

Seriously, for all I know toltecgriz is an 80 woman. And that's fine too if she know her chit...

He ain't and I might be a lot of things, but a liar ain't one of them.

Yep!

"And I don't mean maybe"....laughing!

70 year old woman, then? <grin>

I ain't calling anyone a liar. But I'll go along with you being "a lot of things", PH!

<grin>

Any loads to share with the 300 and 220 partitions?

Me or him?

anyone

68grs of RL22 gave me 2800fps from a 25" tube.

What was the original question?

Hard to say but I know someone that will have the answer regardless.

Oh yeah, 257 Weatherby or 300WM (Win or Weatherby)for a good all around western rifle.

You already own a 257 Weatherby Roy and a 375 H&H.

No brainer as stated before, get a 30 caliber.

Add a varmint rifle, and you are set. But that is a whole nother thread, 17 vs 223 vs 22-250 vs 204 vs 220 swift. Oops, did I just open another can of worms?

The 30-06 will handle anything in North America and most critters around the world.

That is my hunting buddy's favorite bullet in his post '64 300 Win Mag he uses RL 25 for around 2700 fps I'm not sure of the charge weight but I know he worked up his loads from Hornady data. Shoots very accurately out of his gun.

Why am I in the Optics Forum, and why can't I get out?

Funny, it's no great trick to get 2,800 with a 200 from the 300 WSM...

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

Yes, it is!

I have found it no great trick to get 2900 out of the 200-grain Partition in the .300 WSM, at least from a 24" barrel.

John, in five 300 WSM's I've found it's ABSOLUTELY pushing the outer limits of pressure to get 200 grain bullet to 2,900 in a 24" bbl.

But I'm a bit conservative and actually like my brass to come out of the chamber

I have only loaded for 3 .300 WSM's, including one of the very early Winchester 70s, a Kimber, and a Briley custom rifle. But I got the following:

200 Nosler Partition, 68/H4831SC--2879
200 Nosler Partition, 67/RL-22--2893
200 Kodiak, 66/RL-22-2916

All these loads are within the maximums listed in the latest Nosler manual, extraction was easy, primer pockets stayed tight, and accuracy was around 3/4" at 100 yards for three shots.

But different rifles do different things.

That actually makes the 300WSM interesting I load for a friend of mine's rifle, but only 150 grainers as that's all he shoots. Might have to pick one up for myself, I see them used around here all the time.

My 300 WSM's have been three M70's and two Kimber's... RL22 got me to the mid 2,800's before the brass started to stick in the chamber.

Thing I've noticed about the WSM is book loads are one thing, but hunting loads are another... BOOK LOADS may be fine PSI-wise, but not extract well because of the large surface area and minimal taper of the WSM case... I've found sticky-tight loads at the top-end book loads of nearly every 300 WSM load I've tried... the case may "do" what the books say safely, but those are not necessarily loads I want to hunt with.

I can "get" to 3,000 fps with 180's in most 300 WSM's, but I wouldn't want to hunt with any run that hot... the cases just don't "fall out" of the chamber run that hot IME...

Yeah, I agree to certain extent. I suspect a lot more depends on the individual rifle with WSM extraction, as in how slick the chamber is, how square and polished the lugs are, etc. But in my rifles I've found the above loads work fine.

In reality I like the .300 H&H better than the .300 WSM. It feeds and extracts really easily, and has the same case capacity and hence ballistics of the .300 WSM. But try to find a .300 H&H in a light rifle. And try to find .300 H&H brass vs. .300 WSM.

Of course the rational solution is either a .30-06 or a .300 Winchester. But damn they're boring.

Interesting gun gack here but I use 73/H4831sc in Fat Bastid (338 wsm) with the 200 Horn to get to 2801 fps? (this is my fire form load and it shoots into lil teeny tiny bug holes or at least they look that way to my maturing eyes...

75 gets me to 2867 fps for those who care...grin

Dober

I just turned 50 a month back and am beginning to realize just how darn good boring things are....grins

Like the 270 or 06 or 308 with Nozler Pt...Kind of like kissing grammy (I'd guess) but darn they work!

Dober

Dober-
I'd have thought you could get about 100fps more with that bullet. Are you running a short tube?
Thanks.

22" or a tish less, 75 of H4831sc gets me to 2867 fps and that's a great plenty out of the lil case IME...

Could hammer it into the land of 29 but I see no reason to run something that hard anymore. Glad I've left those days behind.

Like any of the other WSM's within 100 fps of the old standard mags is about the end of the line.

Dober

What will your 'fat bastid' do velocity wise with 225 grain pills, Mark?

Thanks!

Naw, me either. And don't believe there is any field difference between a 200-grain .30 at 2800 or 2900--or a 200-grain .338 at 2800 or 2900. I just try to report what I've seen happen.

But if we all bought .270s and .30-06s and .338s and just went out and hunted, what would we do with the rest of our time? Especially when it's cold and most hunting seasons are over. I've noticed a LOT of Montana posts in the past few days....

John, you KNOW I'm a 30-06 man at heart but never claimed to be a particularly "interesting" person (grin)...

Welcome to my world! Up here the best way to describe this time of the year is........[bleep] my life!

Guilty as charged!

How about some long range wolf eradication?

Brad, about 10% of my own centerfire rifle collection (which is neither tiny nor huge) is made up of .30-06's.

Why is that?

Is it the necessity of having different action types? Different classic rifles in that caliber? Redundancy?

I have a modest number of rifles, but seven 30-06's. All are different makes, three are bolt actions, one single shot, one auto loader, one lever action and one pump action

Tim-I've not done much work with the 225's but 2700 and a bit more is it for the most part. 2750 with H4831 is one load that I ran for a bit.

With the 250 SMK and H4841 I topped out at 2624 and with H4350 I topped out at 2700 (but that one was a bit stout). 2600-2650 seems about right in the 22" tube that I have on fat.

Dober

Thats in the plans, just need a little more daylight than we've had lately.

Thanx Dober.
Sounds like it is just a tick behind the 338Win, which ain't bad at all.

Among my .30-06's are are:

1) A Sauer drilling, with 12-gauge shotgun barrels.
2) A classic sporter built on the '03 Springield action that I stocked myself, with a an old Redfield receiver sight.
3) Two pre-'64 Model 70's, one a pre-war.
4) A T/C barrel, among several for an Encore rifle.
5) An old Remington 700 ADL with 20" barrel.
6) A New Ultra Light Arms Model 24.
etc. etc.

As Brad has posted here before, the rifle is usually the big thing now, but the .30-06 is never a mistake.

Oddly enough I have never owned a Ruger No. 1 in .30-06, despite my love of No. 1's. Have owned a Rem. 760 in '06, though, and used it to good effect.

Makes sense, the 30-06 is a great reason to buy any rifle as you can have all the exoticism of a new make and type of action with no muss nor fuss on the loading end.

Have been looking for the right No. 1, but then I already have a 1A in .280 Ackley, which is the rifle loony's .30-06.

Your initial post inquired about loads for the 300 WM.
These loads were OK'd by email from Barnes 3 years ago and are, in fact, below their max at that time.

168 TSX
Win cases + R 9 1/2M
RL 22 79 grains for 3193 fps and group of .503

168 TSX
Win Cases + CCI 250M
RL 19 78 grains for 3225 fps and group of .412

168 TSX
Win Cases + F 215M
H4350 74 grains for 3243 fps and a group of .987

I believe this rifle would easily go to 3300 fps w/o pressure problems. The recoil with each of the 168 TSX loads seemed mild, certainly not unpleasant for a 8 lb. 10 oz. rifle all up.

My favorite load is a 180 Partition over RL 22 75.5 grains with Win cases, F215M primers for a velocity of 3025 fps and groups of below .4 MOA.

For what it's worth, I ran these calcs at

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_card/traj_card.html

Given similar lightweight bullets, the are both FLAT shooting, but the advantage goes to the WBY. I could not find data on the 80 grain TTSX in 257, or I would have used that. I'm thinking laser beam...

Well, heck.

made a few assumptions about BC and velocity, moved the zero to 300 yards, and this is what I cam up with for the 257 WBY and the 80 grain Tipped TSX.

How's zat for flat shooting?

257 might be a touch flatter shooting but every single time the 300 win mag punches a bigger hole and is far more versatile.You can hunt squirels with a pellet gun but a .22 works better...

JB:I happen to like "boring" There is a 3rd choice that will allow an "easy" 3000+ with a 200 gr,3200 with a 180,slick feeding,and no extraction problems....it's called a 300 Weatherby

And the other thing I am liking about it today;the factory ammo from Weatherby and Federal is so good,giving "spec" velocity with great bullets and great accuracy,that I have not found a reason to handload for it yet.

Chronographed some Weatherby 180 BT ammo the other day and averaged about 3180 for 5 shots.Temps were in the 20's.The cartridge is just too easy!