How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
LB, here is a good explanation of MPBR. The article is in reference to a 4" vital zone for varmints. I use a 6" vital zone for whitetail sized game and could expand that (I don't) to 8" for elk sized game.
90% of shots are supposedly within 100yds. I want to be dead on 90% without having to pause or think about aiming 2.5 inches low while positioning for a shot. I never understood why we would go through all the trouble to develop sub-moa loads just to intentionally sight in 2.5 or so inches from actually POI on 90% of our shots
Almost any center fire round will shoot plenty flat out to 150-200 yds with a 100 yd zero. Beyond that, take time for some Kentucky windage, use your dots, or spin those turrets.
Being a hopeless Neanderthal I zero my 270's 3" high at 100 yards for BG hunting(the old way I was taught in the various sporting journals way back when).Depending on the bullet and actual velocity of the load, I'm then 3.5" high at 200,POA to 3" low at 300 and down about 12"-13" at 400 yards.FWIW drop at 500 yards is a bit under 30". This is a fast,flexible system that works well for me with a broad range of loads and for shots taken at distances most game is killed.
There are gremlins, though, and you should zero precisely and shoot the load at actual distances to confirm. For example with some of todays high BC,very fast loads these numbers can vary and result in too much midrange,which requires a changeup. For example the 150 gr 7mm Swift S'co, when started at about 3200 fps,requires only 2" high at 100 yards for a 300 yard zero;zeroing 3 high at 100 will give too much mid range so adjustments need to be made.
Again, whatever method you choose, shoot at actual distances to confirm.
All this will become completely second nature after 10,000-15,000 rounds....
Using MPBR you don't worry about mid range trajectory because your zero lets you aim for the heart/lungs and your bullet goes into the heart/lungs all the way to your MPBR. No holdover, holdunder, dots, or spinning required. Aim for where you want to hit and the thing is hit.
The only way to know where your rifle shoots at 275 yards is to shoot it from 275 yards. Sighting-in X amount high at a hundred only gives you a starting point. It DOES NOT tell you where the bullet lands at 275.
The 270 shoots quite flat, like the 30-06. I suggest you adjust your setup to shoot about 3-4 inches low at 275. That's a pretty versatile sight-in and should put you about dead on at 200 and about 6-7 inches low at 300. That's how I adjust my deer rifles.
Listen to nasaqam, the idea is that even with laser rangefinders - which were not available, say, in Jack O'Connor's time - we seldom know the exact range except AT the range. Using the MPBR method, you basically hold where you want to hit, and the 3" or so "up or down" at various ranges will still produce a killing shot, given the size of the vital kill spot on big game. Or so we hope. You still have to make the shot. All the fascination with MOA at known ranges sort of slips away shooting at game at unknown range.
Using MPBR you don't worry about mid range trajectory because your zero lets you aim for the heart/lungs and your bullet goes into the heart/lungs all the way to your MPBR. No holdover, holdunder, dots, or spinning required. Aim for where you want to hit and the thing is hit.
nsaqam-
I'm definitely going to try this method out...I'll sight-in and stuff and take it out to confirm the ranges before I take it hunting...
Listen to nasaqam, the idea is that even with laser rangefinders - which were not available, say, in Jack O'Connor's time - we seldom know the exact range except AT the range. Using the MPBR method, you basically hold where you want to hit, and the 3" or so "up or down" at various ranges will still produce a killing shot, given the size of the vital kill spot on big game. Or so we hope. You still have to make the shot. All the fascination with MOA at known ranges sort of slips away shooting at game at unknown range.
Whoa there. There is a big difference between making an educated estimate (via experience or laser ranging) at an animal and just pulling a trigger and hoping to connect at this �unknown� range. There is unknown as in give or take 50 yds and then there is UNKNOWN. Beyond 200-250 yds a lot of hunters should not be shooting from field positions. Just firing away because �I�m 3 inches high at 100� is down right irresponsible if you do not have the skill or judgment to discern 300 yds from 500 yds! I have seen people like this.
Estimating ranges in extremely flat or hill places can be quite deceiving. I have spent a lot of spring days popping ground hogs. Before buying a range finder I would always pace the distance from my shot to the animal. After doing this hundreds of times you get very good at estimating range. If you use the same scope you can even tell roughly how far something is just by how big the image is.
Even using MPBR you still have to have a good or reasonably accurate idea as to the range. AND if I have this estimated range I can be more precise knowing exactly my drop at that distance without having to remember where my actual zero is. I probably am in the minority, but I feel this is the simplest method and it works for me. I like simple.
.....Even using MPBR you still have to have a good or reasonably accurate idea as to the range. .....I feel this is the simplest method and it works for me. I like simple.
No, using MPBR one must merely know when a target is PAST your MPBR. If my MPBR is say 350 yards then I don't adjust my POA at all anywhere from 0-350 yards. I just hold where I wish to hit and pull the trigger. Anywhere within that 350 yard MPBR and I hit within +/- 3" of POA. I have become a good judge of ranges past my MPBR but I care not a bit within it. I almost invariably will not shoot beyond my MPBR.
I feel this is the simplest method and it works for me.
One additional step that someone can do if the MPBR extends to or beyond their personal maximum shooting range is to use reticle subtension measurements to determine whether the animal is within range and the shot can be taken with the scope "dead on" the desired point of impact.
For example, for a small deer or pronghorn antelope, the distance from top of back to bottom of chest is somewhere around 14 to 15 inches, so you can figure out at what power your variable power scope would be for the animal in question to be exactly bracketed by the horizontal element of your reticle and the edge of the vertical post for your maximum shooting distance. If you bracket the animal, and the power on your scope is higher than the one indicated for a dead-on shot, don't take the shot or make the necessary corrections for range.
One thing that should be noted is that the wind drift for a 300 yard shot can easily be larger than the vitals of the animal, so correcting for wind is often (?usually?) a bigger challenge than correcting for the distance.
I can see your point. I am still concerned whether an individual is able to judge where his MPBR is at in the field, thus there is still an element of having to judge range with either method.
I love a story my best friend�s father told me. He is in the oil business. He spends a lot of time driving around servicing wells even during Ohio�s gun season. At one location he was making small talk with a gentleman when his hunting buddy yells out �there they go!!!!� A group of does had busted out of a small woodlot and were sprinting across an open field over a � mile away. The �hunters� placed the butts of their shotguns on their thighs and start pumping out rounds. After the firing stopped, they explained that they were trying to �walk the deer in� by lobbing the slugs in their direction. He quickly departed the area�..
If my MPBR is say 350 yards then I don't adjust my POA at all anywhere from 0-350 yards. I just hold where I wish to hit and pull the trigger. Anywhere within that 350 yard MPBR and I hit within +/- 3" of POA.
What size groups do you typically put on paper at 350 yards?
3-5" depending on the rifle and conditions. That said I will do everything in my power to close the range and I think long and hard before I even attempt a shot out near my MPBR. Much more often than not I simply pass. I much prefer the 10 yard shot to the 350 yard shot.
Yep and that is what makes me strive to get closer. That and the unpredictable wind which can push a bullet well out of the vitals at 350. BTW, I just used 350 as a convenient number and my MPBR is in reality closer to 300 yds.
Using a 100 yd zero my bullet would exceed my -3" limit at a very doable 215 yds. This just doesn't make sense to me.
Again, whatever method you choose, shoot at actual distances to confirm.
All this will become completely second nature after 10,000-15,000 rounds....
Thanks Bob...
I'll be doing alot of shooting at the range to confirm my load...
I'm hunting a new area and the Axis deer are more than skittish, they are being shot at everyday
Dang, the shots are quick...and hence I'm trying to understand this MPBR method for the very first time!
I'll know my drops, but I wanted to learn the theory behind this method...sounds good to me, but definitely need to confirm stuff before my next hunt...
I'm sure Steelhead felt handicapped shooting all that game, first with a rifle zeroed at 100 and then with a camera.
Everyone does it their own way and if it works for Steelhead and that is what he is comfortable with then more power to him. The OP asked about a specific methodology and folks provided him with some info so he could better understand the concept.
I happen to find 100 yard zeros and empty chambers disadvantageous while conceding that it is not so for Steelhead.
One additional step that someone can do if the MPBR extends to or beyond their personal maximum shooting range is to use reticle subtension measurements to determine whether the animal is within range and the shot can be taken with the scope "dead on" the desired point of impact.
For example, for a small deer or pronghorn antelope, the distance from top of back to bottom of chest is somewhere around 14 to 15 inches, so you can figure out at what power your variable power scope would be for the animal in question to be exactly bracketed by the horizontal element of your reticle and the edge of the vertical post for your maximum shooting distance. If you bracket the animal, and the power on your scope is higher than the one indicated for a dead-on shot, don't take the shot or make the necessary corrections for range.
One thing that should be noted is that the wind drift for a 300 yard shot can easily be larger than the vitals of the animal, so correcting for wind is often (?usually?) a bigger challenge than correcting for the distance.
RR,
Thanks for sharing that...Someone mentioned that to me here months ago, I'd better get out and learn it
How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
For me, I don't like being higher than about 2" at 100. I know the trajectory pretty well out to as far as I'm comfortable shooting. My big problem is the tendency to aim above center even on close shots causing more problems with the 3" sight-in
LB, I sightin my .270 Win w/130 gr bullets, handloads w/ MV 3050 fps, 2 inches high at 100 yards. These handloads are dead on at 225 yards. Their MPBR is about 275 yards.
First, understand what maximum point-blank range (MPBR) is and its rigidly irresolvable limitations.
� For a certain diameter of hit zone � which you define � aim right-on, and the center of the potential group will never rise higher nor fall lower within that range than the radius of that hit zone.
� The center of the potential group � if the potential group (which you haven't yet fired the rest of) is large, a high or low flier (which your shot may be) can rise above or sink below that kill zone. Likewise, if you've pulled your shot during the trigger pull, your shot may hit outside your defined hit zone.
For these and so many other reasons, your experience is far more important than theoretical figuring. Shoot, shoot, shoot until you know.
Dead nuts on at 100 allows me to thread a needle in the bush, which is almost always under a 100 yards and also allows for a blinker shot far more easily than 3" high. Nothing beats having the bullet go where the crosshairs are planted, a fact that escapes many.
Course I'm not prone to stick it in a chicks belly button cuzz it's going to high for close range work.
For me MPBR doesn't replace shooting alot at various ranges it merely gives me a number at X distance to sight my rifles in by. As an example with my one load I get a MPBR of 316 yards and that translates to 2.5" high at 200 yards.
More challenging making these shots work with a 3" high at 100yards. I somehow manage to get by with the bullet landing where the crosshairs are planted, even though I'm severely handicapped by doing so. Live and learn...
I'm kinda scratchin' my head at those who worry about an extra 1/2 to inch of bullet rise at 100-200 yards,but aren't concerned about dealing with 6-10" of drop at 300-350.....
And with a 3" high zero at 100 with a 270-130,you are about 1" high at 50.....so I don't even worry about midrange in the brush....25 yards,50,...150, I aim center of chest and kill them....
Folks like to talk about adding group dispersion onto the midrange that insures you will "miss".....but one does not get to shoot groups at BG animals. And if you shoot poorly, you will miss with any zero...there is no free lunch.
All this is being made way too complex;at 350,you hold high shoulder,aim, squeeze, follow through,ie call you shot when the sear breaks,and you will see them fold....25 yards or 350...nuthin' easier unless you flub it.
I hunt some super thick country and, like Steelhead, put it dead on for 100 when I hunt there. The absolute longest possible shot there is 150 yards. I also hunt some high plains where you can see and shoot for a very, very long way if you're capable. I rezero for that country. I used to do the 3" high thing with a regular plex, and it worked ok, but lately I've used a ballistic plex with the main crosshairs dialed in at 200. Max range varies....
I have shot a .270 Win since I was about 14 and have always sighted it in 3" high at 100 yards..Under field conditions and out of breath sometimes,those .5" paper numbers mean nothing to me.I own 2 of the .270's now,both sighted in 3" high at 100..Never had a problem with it under field conditions.
I'm kinda scratchin' my head at those who worry about an extra 1/2 to inch of bullet rise at 100-200 yards,but aren't concerned about dealing with 6-10" of drop at 300-350.....
And with a 3" high zero at 100 with a 270-130,you are about 1" high at 50.....so I don't even worry about midrange in the brush....25 yards,50,...150, I aim center of chest and kill them....
Folks like to talk about adding group dispersion onto the midrange that insures you will "miss".....but one does not get to shoot groups at BG animals. And if you shoot poorly, you will miss with any zero...there is no free lunch.
All this is being made way too complex;at 350,you hold high shoulder,aim, squeeze, follow through,ie call you shot when the sear breaks,and you will see them fold....25 yards or 350...nuthin' easier unless you flub it.
Folks like to talk about adding group dispersion onto the midrange that insures you will "miss".....but one does not get to shoot groups at BG animals. And if you shoot poorly, you will miss with any zero...there is no free lunch.
I'm not sure I get your point here.
When I brought up group dispersion it was with respect to the far end of the mpbr envelope, not the midrange. Also whether or not you're shooting a group the same variation can affect a particular shot.
I'm not arguing for any given system here. It just seems to me that if you want to rely on a bullet traveling within a particular envelope you should account for influences on the size and shape of the envelope.
mathman: Not really directed at you; I have seen this mentioned many times before :),so I was commenting generically.
Mostly these "faults" associated with the MPBR or "2.5-3" high zero (they are so very much the same I have a hard time distinguishing between them) are more problematic in theory than reality....
I missed a hurried shot at a beautiful big red stag in Spain because I was unfamiliar with the species (it was the first one that I saw), and it looked so much like an elk (which is much larger). It was much closer than I thought that it was.
I tried to get fancy with hold-over and of course shot over it.
(I could, I suppose, use the excuse that I was shooting an unfamiliar cartridge from an unfamiliar rifle, but the awful truth is that missing easy shots is one of my special talents.)
I don't think your alone,Ken.Anyone who has hunted has done the same and some more than others.My biggest fault is judging distance and with a cartridge like the .270,one should not as much as I have.
When it gets over the 22" hold over on an Elk and your in the wild blue yonder,it's tough to do sometimes.That is one of the reasons I never shoot past 400 or so.
All this computer calculations is great if your shooting off a bench,but to this day,I have never found one out there with little time once I see a critter to pull the trigger..So an inch here or there isn't to important to me as wobbly as a guy might be,beating the steep hillside.
Shooting your rifle in field conditions/positions is way more important than any computer program or shooting range when it comes to bring home the bacon.
I guess for me I like to know exactly where my bullet is striking, and have taken probably 6 of the head shots that SH posted. MPBR just seems like a + or - 3 inch guess.
I primarily hunt the think stuff, even in more open terrain. I hunt public land and regardless of the region, the critters seem to be in the thick stuff. I have yet to find that 5x5 bull standing out in the middle of a pasture like on the TV shows.
Dead on at 100, 3.5 inches low at 200, hold on the top of the back at 300 for a deer sized animal. Beyond that I 'm not not shooting. Again I'd rather be right on at 100 where 90% of shots take place (often very quickly btw) than 3 inches high.
So you're alright with holdover at 300 and 2.5" low at 200. I prefer holding where I intend to hit and pulling the trigger and then I don't care what the range is as long as it's not over 300.
Again I'd rather be right on at 100 where 90% of shots take place (often very quickly btw) than 3 inches high.
Where did you find that number? Maybe in Ohio but not out West. In Idaho, I'd say 90% of the shots are over 200 yards.
In my 270 with 130 gr bullets, I'm 3" high at 100 yds, 4" at 200 yards, MPBR around 285, 3" low at 325 and 8" low at 400. 400 yards is about as far as I shoot, so I never have to leave hair when shooting. I own a range finder so I'm never guessing my yardage.
So you're alright with holdover at 300 and 2.5" low at 200. I prefer holding where I intend to hit and pulling the trigger and then I don't care what the range is as long as it's not over 300.
Yup
What I am trying to to get across is I feel the MPBR is not as precise. As stated by Ken H, you are basically accepting a 6 inch zone in which your bullet will strike. If you are at the outer edge of that circle due to the range and your aim is off a few inches due to human error, you are likely outside of the desired kill zone. If I need to aim 3 inches high, well I just aim 3 inches high.
It works for me, your system works for you. We probably aren't going to convince each other otherwise, and that is fine. We are just sharing differ viewpoints.
As stated by Ken H, you are basically accepting a 6 inch zone in which your bullet will strike.
I tend to disagree,with respect.It is one thing off the bench and totally another in the field.Once your rifle is sighted in,the rest is up to you in conditions far different than a range with a rest and the weather...
I have never suffered with 3 high at 100 with any of my rifles,including the 270 Win...Everyone has a different exhaustion stage hiking in the hills without a rest handy which takes everything your rifle did in a controlled atmosphere and throws it out the window.
Unless your a still hunter set up and un-winded,your prone to human faults whether horseback or walking.We all no where are rifles hit in the controlled atmosphere of a range and bench
But how many know kneeling or off hand and somewhat out of breath?That's where experience comes in just doing it,hopefully before hunting season.
The net anymore seems harmful rather than helpful when it comes to hunting and how to as if you didn't already no.
Again..Just an opinion as when Ray/Ken and others are told there wrong..That just don't ad up for me.
Again, once someone's mind is made up it is hard to convince them otherwise. I know what works for me. As to the question about the 90% within 100 yds....I have read this several times and it does mirror my own experiences. Yes, I am primarily a Ohio Whitetail hunter, but have some experiences out west. I have found most critters on public land in the think stuff and fairly close.
This girl was shot at about 100 yds off hand in the dark timber. [img:center]
I actually snuck within about 40 yds of this guy while he was sleeping. I watched him for a good hour, of course had no tag. [img:center]
For me, 3" high at 100 was more of a detriment than a help. As a teenager I tried the JOC method with my 270 and found it was a pain to hold under rockchucks and the bottom edge of coyotes at the 100-200 range. I realize the OP asked about deer, but thats what I learned shooting at critters. Not to mention, I've seen way more animals overshot than undershot and many times the shooter is sighted in for the long-range opportunity.
I have sighted in elk rifles for open country hunting at 3" high, but than an elk is a big bullseye and 5" high probably wouldn't matter much.
It seems to me that the unsteadiness of field positions or shakes from being winded would affect either sight in system.
It would, but a Hunter is not a Bench Shooter.One can be both but not at the same time under the same situations hunting provides.I didn't even bring up heart rate in the field when only a Grouse jumps out from under your feet compared to a controlled atmosphere.Then theirs Buck Fever and the raised blood flow that entails which effect steadiness.
Under hunting conditions,I am just seeing how .5" means squat..I would take that or an inch or two in a second.
I just don't believe in computer estimates compared to actual happenings.
So you're alright with holdover at 300 and 2.5" low at 200. I prefer holding where I intend to hit and pulling the trigger and then I don't care what the range is as long as it's not over 300.
Who the [bleep] said anything about holdover? It's akin to holdunder at close ranges. I said I want the bullet to land where the crosshairs are planted. Maybe you haven't heard of turrets, they've been around for sometime now.
Guessing ain't my gig but suits many around here, just ask JO.
Again I'd rather be right on at 100 where 90% of shots take place (often very quickly btw) than 3 inches high.
Where did you find that number? Maybe in Ohio but not out West. In Idaho, I'd say 90% of the shots are over 200 yards.
In my 270 with 130 gr bullets, I'm 3" high at 100 yds, 4" at 200 yards, MPBR around 285, 3" low at 325 and 8" low at 400. 400 yards is about as far as I shoot, so I never have to leave hair when shooting. I own a range finder so I'm never guessing my yardage.
Mr. Moore,
It might be more accurate to state that 90% of shots that hit animals' vitals are taken at a range of 100 yards or less. I've hunted open areas of the West a few times and know that long shots certainly can present themselves, but a couple years ago I bagged a pronghorn buck from around 25 to 30 yards, and a buddy of mine bagged a mulie doe last year from about 40 yards away. I know that's anecdotal, but there are a lot of animals bagged out west from under 100 yards.
Now if you want to quantify total shots fired at game, disregarding whether the shots hit the mark, I'm sure that much more than 10% of shots taken out west are at more than 100 yards, but a good percentage of those miss their mark (not your shots, mind you, but those of Joe Average). Last fall I saw some guys lobbing shots from the road at pronghorns that were over 700 yards away (I'm thankful I was not in their line of fire); as you might imagine, all those shots did were spook the pronghorns my buddy and I were stalking. So technically, a 700+ yard shot presented itself to those guys, but I wouldn't categorize those shots (several of them) as being legitimate hunting shots at game.
Also, with relatively affordable rangefinders and scopes with ballistic reticles (or turrets) available, there isn't nearly as much need for MPBR as there was 20+ years ago. With a .270, one can hold on hair with zeroes for multiple distances out to 500 or 600 yards. One can have a trajectory within about an inch of point of aim out to 200 yards (as far as probably 99% of the public has any business shooting without taking careful read of the wind and distance), and then use the tools available to take a shot beyond that. If someone can instantly get an accurate read of the wind, accurately estimate the distance (for windage calculations), mentally calculate the correct windage, and get ready within a second or two for a shot from a field position out to 325 yards, then I'm certainly impressed with his acquired skills, but those are rare skills indeed. If one uses a rangefinder, then a ballistic reticle or turrets are easy to use.
So you're alright with holdover at 300 and 2.5" low at 200. I prefer holding where I intend to hit and pulling the trigger and then I don't care what the range is as long as it's not over 300.
Who the [bleep] said anything about holdover? It's akin to holdunder at close ranges. I said I want the bullet to land where the crosshairs are planted. Maybe you haven't heard of turrets, they've been around for sometime now.
Guessing ain't my gig but suits many around here, just ask JO.
djb said something about holdover and he was who I was responding to.
Originally Posted by djb
Dead on at 100, 3.5 inches low at 200, hold on the top of the back at 300 for a deer sized animal. Beyond that I 'm not not shooting. Again I'd rather be right on at 100 where 90% of shots take place (often very quickly btw) than 3 inches high.
I hold the crosshair where I want to hit too and all the way out to 300+ they go where the crosshairs are placed.
All bullets have a trajectory no matter how they are zeroed....if you zero at 100 yards,you are "under" the crosshairs at some distances and "over" them at others.If there is no time to click up or down you are "guessing"This is hunting;not banging steal gongs. Or shooting varmints like woodchucks and coyotes.
Common sense should prevail; if you hunt varmints, change up; I don't zero a varmint rifle like a Swift the same way.Anyone with half a brain gets that....cripes....
In some places game animals are stupid and common. There is all kinds of time for any bizarre zero you choose to use, and make adjustments.
In other places a trophy mule deer or whitetail is completely aware of you at common distances to 300 yards, and do not generally stand around while you dick with extraneous gear.
I LMAO when I hear MPBR is not "precise enough".... this demonstrates lack of experience.
In other places a trophy mule deer or whitetail is completely aware of you at common distances to 300 yards, and do not generally stand around while you dick with extraneous gear.
Exactly Bob.
My four rifles are zero'd at 200(give or take) which means they are about +2" at 100. Last month I somehow managed to brain a cullnasty Tomcat at 35 yards and last week decapitated a ground squirrel at 115 yards. This afternoon the same rifle doinked the 440 yard gong right where it was supposed to and I didn't have to fiddle with chit once. It doesn't get any easier being the rifles are all set-up the same way and share similar trajectories. Of course if I was a dedicated 'woods' hunter I might go about it differently but for the mixed riverbottom and prairie country out here this seems to work best(for sub-500 yard shots).
All bullets have a trajectory no matter how they are zeroed....if you zero at 100 yards,you are "under" the crosshairs at some distances and "over" them at others.If there is no time to click up or down you are "guessing"This is hunting;not banging steal gongs. Or shooting varmints like woodchucks and coyotes.
Common sense should prevail; if you hunt varmints, change up; I don't zero a varmint rifle like a Swift the same way.Anyone with half a brain gets that....cripes....
In some places game animals are stupid and common. There is all kinds of time for any bizarre zero you choose to use, and make adjustments.
In other places a trophy mule deer or whitetail is completely aware of you at common distances to 300 yards, and do not generally stand around while you dick with extraneous gear.
I LMAO when I hear MPBR is not "precise enough".... this demonstrates lack of experience.
Yep, can't teach a dog new tricks. Again you haven't done it the other way so you are guessing out your ass, a talent you share with many on here, congratulations.
I think there is room here for both "camps". It just depends on what technique you want to adapt and master. I zero a 1.5-4x20 scope with a 270WCF for heavy woods/treestand hunting at 50 yards. I need to thread a shot between vegetation. Going out west, I use another 270WCF zeroed at 2.5" high at 100 yards with verified holdovers. The MPBR concept works.. I was not brought up with "turret spinning" but understand it can be done. I just don't have the confidence to use this technique. Something about old dogs.............
See there you go, both can work depending on situation. With a turret I can quickly and easily adjust. Why settle for 3" high if going in the muck, I can have it dead nuts on at 50. At the same time when I come out of the muck I can spin it so I'm 3" high at 100 for those SUDDEN cross canyon shots that Bob takes in 23 nanoseconds.
It's funny how quick deer at 100 yards becomes a deer a 400 yards. At least that's what I've noticed on public land out here. I know for a fact my dumb ass would get screwed up with turrets so dot's it is.
A guy has to use what works for him, really no wrong way about it if you can hit what the hell you're aiming at.
I am reluctant to "spin turrets" for two reasons: a) I am do not have faith that 4 clicks = 1 inch at 100, 2 inches at 200, etc., all the time, b) so I range a pronghorn at 335yds. Then click up how many? The pronghorn spooks and is gone. Now do I click back to what.... dead on at 100 and wait for the next distance? How many clicks did I move? Was it 6? No, 5 I think. Oh oh, I think I clicked one too many. For me it is too confusing. My comfort zone is a MPBR approach, range it if time permits and know your drops and adjust for the wind.
This is hunting;not banging steal gongs. Or shooting varmints like woodchucks and coyotes.
It seems to me, the last time I went after coyotes it was a helluva lot like "hunting." When I sally forth to hunt, any number of critters are possible, coyotes being one of them and 3" high @ 100 just complicates things. Like I said previously, I learned long ago as a teenager "with half a brain" that owned only one rifle, and using that one rifle on everything from from ground squirrels to elk what works for me.
This one could have gone from 90 yards to 300 quicker than any deer, thankfully I was 'lucky' enough to be dead nuts on for the shot. This occurred whilst spring bear hunting.
You have your rifle zeroed at 100 yards, you then see an animal you want to shoot at somewhere between 200-300 yards, you then take your LRF and range the target at 268 yards, you then put down your LRF and chamber a round into your rifle, you then twist your turret up the required number of clicks, take careful aim and shoot. Is that correct?
Certainly both techniques rely on a pretty accurate distance measurement. Some long range shots come and go pretty quick while others are more deliberate. When a shot presents itself, I either heading for the "sticks", setting up my backpack or leaning against something. Both methods needs a rangefinder or a person good at estimating range. Success is a tough nut to crack.
Now, if a guy had a prairie dog town to practice, he could get some good practice at spinning and clicking.
I am reluctant to "spin turrets" for two reasons: a) I am do not have faith that 4 clicks = 1 inch at 100, 2 inches at 200, etc., all the time, b) so I range a pronghorn at 335yds. Then click up how many? The pronghorn spooks and is gone. Now do I click back to what.... dead on at 100 and wait for the next distance? How many clicks did I move? Was it 6? No, 5 I think. Oh oh, I think I clicked one too many. For me it is too confusing. My comfort zone is a MPBR approach, range it if time permits and know your drops and adjust for the wind.
If you have a scope with exposed target (tacticle) turrets fraom a reputable maker they will reap every time. Been twisting turrets for years and it takes very little time,
I have a Mill reticle and I zero the first dot abovr the reticle at 100 yards. I have the best of all 3 words. Dots, MPBR and twisting. For the loooonnnng shot twisting is what I do
Yeah but go back to my earlier post. The shot passes and what do you do now? Click back to zero? How many was that? Are you sure? Does the scope click back and forth accurately?
Both camps rely on knowing the bullet drop. One corrects using the turrets and the other corrects using a holdover.
I just returned from a black bear hunt in the western part of the state. On the second evening I was high on the mountain where I needeed to be right at prime time. There was a shallow depression about 250 meters below my lookout with about 15 young bull elk out feeding in the bottom, unaware of me. Across from them was a south facing slope covered with scattered timber, brush, rocks and green grass...a perfect place to see a bear right when the sun went down. After sitting still and glassing for probably 15 minutes low and behold a really nice black bear flowed out of the timber and began working his way across the face. It only took a second to tell this was a good mature boar and the exact kind of bear I was looking for. The rangefinder said 450 meters. The mountain air was mirage free and there was no wind. I put in 2.2 mils of elevation, anchored the rifle butt in solid with my rear bag, took the cant out of the bipod with the podlock and broke the Jewell trigger clean. The bullet passed completely through the bears ribcage and he made one spin and a quick run for the timber. He was dead on his feet.
Scope was set here for the shot....
The dead bear...450 meters = 492 yards. How much swag would you have needed to make that shot with a conventional scope?
If I would have attempted to close the distance those elk would have blown that bear way out of there.
I wont hunt without these capabilities....the technology is there. Learn it and utilize it. I'm not saying whack away at every animal you see at long range....use it if you need it.
Yeah but go back to my earlier post. The shot passes and what do you do now? Click back to zero? How many was that? Are you sure? Does the scope click back and forth accurately?
Both camps rely on knowing the bullet drop. One corrects using the turrets and the other corrects using a holdover.
A proper turret has the ability to set the turret back to zero, it is not confusing or difficult in any manner
I would never use tactical turrets on a hunting rifle. Its just me. I like to keep things simple and compact. Turrets are something to bump and bang, add weight and fight getting into a backpack scabbard. Now, in a dog town, fine, have fun. Again, its what we have confidence in, we usually defend.
You have your rifle zeroed at 100 yards, you then see an animal you want to shoot at somewhere between 200-300 yards, you then take your LRF and range the target at 268 yards, you then put down your LRF and chamber a round into your rifle, you then twist your turret up the required number of clicks, take careful aim and shoot. Is that correct?
Sounds simple and quick!
That you don't fathom it surprises me none and that it is difficult for you provides much humor.
Yep, that is just how I do it. Stick with your [bleep] loving posts, at least you can speak to it.
I would never use tactical turrets on a hunting rifle. Its just me. I like to keep things simple and compact. Turrets are something to bump and bang, add weight and fight getting into a backpack scabbard. Now, in a dog town, fine, have fun. Again, its what we have confidence in, we usually defend.
How big of a klutz are you?? Hell I'm 59 and it aint a problem except in your mind
Another one thats on my wall instead of still running around in the bush....Taken with one shot at 470 meters as he was giving me the middle finger, saying in buck language, adios amigo!
I'd rather come home with the buck than another story about the one that got away...
Personal preference for me....mils are what I started with. Nothing wrong with moa either.
I've been hunting with this system for about six years and I've never had a POI change on one of these scopes...ever. I've moved those scope turrets thousands of times and they have never changed.
IMO its all about getting to know your equipment. Put your time in. It's like scouting, the more you put into it the more rewards you will reap from it.
I've been hunting with this system for about six years and I've never had a POI change on one of these scopes...ever. I've moved those scope turrets thousands of times and they have never changed.
...The shot passes and what do you do now? Click back to zero? How many was that? Are you sure? Does the scope click back and forth accurately?...
There's no need to count clicks. Turrets are incrementally numbered and include intermediate index lines. Just dial moa, or mils. Dialing back to zero is pretty foolproof unless going more than a full revolution. Some turrets have a mechanical zero-stop as well. The custom CDS, and Kenton turret caps are marked in range (per your specific load/atmo), moa, or both.
Leupold M1 turrets,
Leupold standard target turrets,
Repeatability is a non-issue with anything resembling a quality scope.
I like to zero at 100, but if moving into open country it's easy enough to apply 200 yard dope (or whatever suits ya), and carry on.
several years ago there was an article on this . can't remember what magazine but this it what it it said this for 270 130 gr bullet. sight it in at 3 1/4 " at 100 yards you will be on at 325 yards. hope that helps
Again I'd rather be right on at 100 where 90% of shots take place (often very quickly btw) than 3 inches high.
Where did you find that number? Maybe in Ohio but not out West. In Idaho, I'd say 90% of the shots are over 200 yards.
In my 270 with 130 gr bullets, I'm 3" high at 100 yds, 4" at 200 yards, MPBR around 285, 3" low at 325 and 8" low at 400. 400 yards is about as far as I shoot, so I never have to leave hair when shooting. I own a range finder so I'm never guessing my yardage.
Mr. Moore,
It might be more accurate to state that 90% of shots that hit animals' vitals are taken at a range of 100 yards or less. I've hunted open areas of the West a few times and know that long shots certainly can present themselves, but a couple years ago I bagged a pronghorn buck from around 25 to 30 yards, and a buddy of mine bagged a mulie doe last year from about 40 yards away. I know that's anecdotal, but there are a lot of animals bagged out west from under 100 yards.
Now if you want to quantify total shots fired at game, disregarding whether the shots hit the mark, I'm sure that much more than 10% of shots taken out west are at more than 100 yards, but a good percentage of those miss their mark (not your shots, mind you, but those of Joe Average). Last fall I saw some guys lobbing shots from the road at pronghorns that were over 700 yards away (I'm thankful I was not in their line of fire); as you might imagine, all those shots did were spook the pronghorns my buddy and I were stalking. So technically, a 700+ yard shot presented itself to those guys, but I wouldn't categorize those shots (several of them) as being legitimate hunting shots at game.
Also, with relatively affordable rangefinders and scopes with ballistic reticles (or turrets) available, there isn't nearly as much need for MPBR as there was 20+ years ago. With a .270, one can hold on hair with zeroes for multiple distances out to 500 or 600 yards. One can have a trajectory within about an inch of point of aim out to 200 yards (as far as probably 99% of the public has any business shooting without taking careful read of the wind and distance), and then use the tools available to take a shot beyond that. If someone can instantly get an accurate read of the wind, accurately estimate the distance (for windage calculations), mentally calculate the correct windage, and get ready within a second or two for a shot from a field position out to 325 yards, then I'm certainly impressed with his acquired skills, but those are rare skills indeed. If one uses a rangefinder, then a ballistic reticle or turrets are easy to use.
You can change my quote to most kills I see are over 200 yards if you want to. In fact, I can't remember the last kill I was at that was within 200 yards for Elk, Deer or Antelope. Most are within 250 to 300 yards.
For under 400 yards, MPBR is all you need if you want to keep it simple (I do). After 400 yards, you get into long range shooting which is a different game I'm not interested in. Out to 400 yards, my gun hits where it's pointed, that's all I want.
For under 400 yards, MPBR is all you need if you want to keep it simple (I do). After 400 yards, you get into long range shooting which is a different game I'm not interested in. Out to 400 yards, my gun hits where it's pointed, that's all I want.
And your right in my opinion..Same as I do.This internet hunting has gone crazy...
Dead nuts on at 100 allows me to thread a needle in the bush, which is almost always under a 100 yards and also allows for a blinker shot far more easily than 3" high. Nothing beats having the bullet go where the crosshairs are planted, a fact that escapes many.
Course I'm not prone to stick it in a chicks belly button cuzz it's going to high for close range work.
3" high at 100 don't help me much here.
Seen this pic a few times, been meaning to ask how far away was this critter and did you ever find out if it was a buck or a doe? It reminds me a lot of where I got older (note I didn't say grew up...grin) in Northern Minne where we hunted whitey's in the thick and nasty hardwoods and swamps. Think our close shots were in the 4 yd to 8 yd ranges.
Just a wild azzed guess here, but maybe if a guy sights his rifle in with great care and practices a lot with it at various ranges will have more to do with his ability to hit accurately and qucikly than whether he sights in at 100 yards or 200 yards or 300 yards...? And maybe the guy that shoots with turrets several times a week can work them quicker than someone like me that has never used them and has little mechanical understanding. ( I once threw all my toilet paper away because my new SUV came with a rear wiper)
For under 400 yards, MPBR is all you need if you want to keep it simple (I do). After 400 yards, you get into long range shooting which is a different game I'm not interested in. Out to 400 yards, my gun hits where it's pointed, that's all I want.
And your right in my opinion..Same as I do.This internet hunting has gone crazy...
Jayco
It's good to know that so many people out west can INSTANTLY judge wind well enough to mentally calculate (factoring in angle of the wind to line of fire) whether they need hold 6" or 36" inches of windage (or something else) into the wind on a quick shot at 378 yds (or whatever distance). I'm exaggerating a little, but the difference in windage due to misjudging the wind by merely 5 mph is in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 inches at 400 yards for a .270 Win. with typical 130 gr bullets. That's more than enough to miss the vitals of a deer or pronghorn, even with a sub-moa gun and a sub-moa shooter with a solid shooting position, and one hopes that is a clean miss and not a gut-shot animal.
I know there are people who can very accurately read the wind and do the necessary mental math in an instant, as I'm sure you gentlemen can, but I'm guessing the number of people in that group is very small, even out west. Using MPBR to take a quick shot out past about 200, maybe 250, yds puts a lot of demands on the skills of the shooter, and I dare say there are only a select few who are truly up to the task. Using MPBR out to 400 yds is truly for experts who have shot thousands of rounds of ammo with varying wind conditions and various distances out to their MPBR.
Just a wild azzed guess here, but maybe if a guy sights his rifle in with great care and practices a lot with it at various ranges will have more to do with his ability to hit accurately and qucikly than whether he sights in at 100 yards or 200 yards or 300 yards...? And maybe the guy that shoots with turrets several times a week can work them quicker than someone like me that has never used them and has little mechanical understanding. ( I once threw all my toiet paper away because my new SUV came with a rear wiper)
Fred
That is spot on except,there are some that want to change others minds and practices,even if they have been successful not doing it there way....
No one is wrong and the Barnes is a good bullet as is the Nosler/Swift..To each his own...
Mt. Marine, Sorry, but I would never drag that contraption out on a big game hunt. Varmints and terrorists, yes. This topic has boiled down to two camps, the turret twisters vs. the MPBR gang. I'm going to leave it at that and continue with my habits. No sense getting all worked up. Different strokes to put good meat in the freezer.
Mt. Marine, Sorry, but I would never drag that contraption out on a big game hunt. Varmints and terrorists, yes. This topic has boiled down to two camps, the turret twisters vs. the MPBR gang. I'm going to leave it at that and continue with my habits. No sense getting all worked up. Different strokes to put good meat in the freezer.
I'm with you I would never ever drag my turreted scope, hell no. I'll certainly carry it. It will certainly get the job done from point blank to waaaaaaaay out there.
How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
What ya all think???
Take me to school somebody I'd appreciate it
The question of the OP seems pretty direct to me...so simple a child could understand it....he asked simply whether being zeroed 2.5" high at 100 yards would get him to 275 yards, the farthest he intended to shoot.
I don't recall that he asked whether he was doing it "right",or was suffering some level of diminished acumen because he wanted to do it this way,as opposed to how some others do it....
Late Bloomer the answer to your question is "yes", a 270 with 130 gr bullet zeroed 2.5 or so inches high will get you to 275 yards very easily,and you will be slighly low at 300 yards.
Shoot to confirm. You will kill a pile of game zeroed in this manner if you take the time to learn your rifle,and its' trajectory,and work on your field skills.And you will do it at all sorts of distances out to your self-imposed limits,whatever that may be.
I'm continually astonished by how some otherwise intelligent people here feel this compulsion to insult people who do not do things their way,rather than simply pass on the good information and experience they have obtained along the way.
How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
What ya all think???
Take me to school somebody I'd appreciate it
The question of the OP seems pretty direct to me...so simple a child could understand it....he asked simply whether being zeroed 2.5" high at 100 yards would get him to 275 yards, the farthest he intended to shoot.
I don't recall that he asked whether he was doing it "right",or was suffering some level of diminished acumen because he wanted to do it this way,as opposed to how some others do it....
Late Bloomer the answer to your question is "yes", a 270 with 130 gr bullet zeroed 2.5 or so inches high will get you to 275 yards very easily,and you will be slighly low at 300 yards.
Shoot to confirm. You will kill a pile of game zeroed in this manner if you take the time to learn your rifle,and its' trajectory,and work on your field skills.And you will do it at all sorts of distances out to your self-imposed limits,whatever that may be.
I'm continually astonished by how some otherwise intelligent people here feel this compulsion to insult people who do not do things their way,rather than simply pass on the good information and experience they have obtained along the way.
He asked what do you all think? Pretty open ended question, of course Bob makes smart ass comments and in particular makes guesses about things.
I've seen many times with you Bob if it's not in your familiar old man camp way of doing things you do the typical left hand attacks.
Seems things like this give you a little sense of superiority.
I'm BOB I don't need nothing but a 4x scope and KNOW the best way to sight in. Anything other than the way BOB does it shows a lack of experience.
Just cuzz you generally post "nice: don't make you any less of a pompous prick.
Dead nuts on at 100 allows me to thread a needle in the bush, which is almost always under a 100 yards and also allows for a blinker shot far more easily than 3" high. Nothing beats having the bullet go where the crosshairs are planted, a fact that escapes many.
Course I'm not prone to stick it in a chicks belly button cuzz it's going to high for close range work.
3" high at 100 don't help me much here.
Seen this pic a few times, been meaning to ask how far away was this critter and did you ever find out if it was a buck or a doe? It reminds me a lot of where I got older (note I didn't say grew up...grin) in Northern Minne where we hunted whitey's in the thick and nasty hardwoods and swamps. Think our close shots were in the 4 yd to 8 yd ranges.
Thx Dober
It's a buck, if you look up off to the left side you will see a little bit of ORANGE antler. I'd say distance was 60'ish yards.
I zero my standard-caliber rifles (308 and '06 class trajectory) at 200 yards to take advantage of their flat trajectory. Mid-range trajectory is less than 2-inches high. At 25-50 yards the bullet hits dead center for all practical purposes. That is perfect for close range shooting at game. It is not necessary to zero at 100 yards to thread the needle at close range. Doing so is a definite handicap when the shot comes at 175-250 yards. Both shots are common where I hunt, and I use the same scope setting for both. I have not yet ventured into the realm of turning external adjustments and long range shooting at game. It sounds like great fun but I have just not found the need. The 200 yard zero has proven plenty versatile for me. My freezers (2) get filled every year.
if it's not in your familiar old man camp way of doing things
I suppose we may have a general gap between the young and old. I grew up shooting iron sights and was in my twenties before I fired a shot through a scope, so am more comfortable with less magnification than some of the young guys. I can't handle the shakiness of 14x, and before hunting scope adjustments were refined to what they have become today, had enough sight in experience to know not to trust adjustment notches. We could adjust a scope 4 notches and it would move an inch on the paper, 4 more notches and it would move a different amount and maybe even shoot at a different elevation. So, this is why the old man camp guys don't want to change the adjustments, we havn't learned to trust them yet and being more comfortable with hold over than adjusting.
But I do find the B&C reticles very quick, dependable, and useful.
It's good to know that so many people out west can INSTANTLY judge wind well enough to mentally calculate (factoring in angle of the wind to line of fire) whether they need hold 6" or 36" inches of windage (or something else) into the wind on a quick shot at 378 yds (or whatever distance). I'm exaggerating a little, but the difference in windage due to misjudging the wind by merely 5 mph is in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 inches at 400 yards for a .270 Win. with typical 130 gr bullets. That's more than enough to miss the vitals of a deer or pronghorn, even with a sub-moa gun and a sub-moa shooter with a solid shooting position, and one hopes that is a clean miss and not a gut-shot animal.
Do you take a abacus with you when you hunt to calculate each shot? I had a long conversation with a long-range shooter friend recently regarding wind. He shoots 10k to 12k shots a year. Practices with the local police sniper unit, shoots in regular competitions, instructs, etc. Regular practice shots up to 1,000 yards. His advice regarding wind, forget about it until you're past 400 yards or are having strong winds. I'll stick to his advice, thank you.
With just a 10 mph wind a .308 with a .420BC starting out at 3000 is pushed 8" at 325 yards. That's the difference between a solid heart/lung hit and less desirable paunch hit on a WT.
It's good to know that so many people out west can INSTANTLY judge wind well enough to mentally calculate (factoring in angle of the wind to line of fire) whether they need hold 6" or 36" inches of windage (or something else) into the wind on a quick shot at 378 yds (or whatever distance). I'm exaggerating a little, but the difference in windage due to misjudging the wind by merely 5 mph is in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 inches at 400 yards for a .270 Win. with typical 130 gr bullets. That's more than enough to miss the vitals of a deer or pronghorn, even with a sub-moa gun and a sub-moa shooter with a solid shooting position, and one hopes that is a clean miss and not a gut-shot animal.
I had a long conversation with a long-range shooter friend recently regarding wind. He shoots 10k to 12k shots a year. Practices with the local police sniper unit, shoots in regular competitions, instructs, etc. Regular practice shots up to 1,000 yards. His advice regarding wind, forget about it until you're past 400 yards or are having strong winds. I'll take my advice from people doing it versus someone theorizing.
No theorizing on my part. All you have to do is shoot under controlled circumstances (e.g., at a range) when there is any appreciable wind to see the effects of wind. Try this the next time you are at the range when there is any appreciable crosswind (e.g., a MEASURED 10 mph or more) - don't correct for wind and see where your shots at 400 yards land - I'm guessing you'll be surprised based on your comments. "Strong" winds is not very descriptive, but based on what happens at 400 yards, once you get close to 10 mph, you had better correct for wind. If where you hunt doesn't have much wind, then don't worry about it, but in the places in the plains states I've hunted, there is often wind, and it is often more than 10 mph, which based on your friend's advice would be "strong" wind.
How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
What ya all think???
Take me to school somebody I'd appreciate it
The question of the OP seems pretty direct to me...so simple a child could understand it....he asked simply whether being zeroed 2.5" high at 100 yards would get him to 275 yards, the farthest he intended to shoot.
I don't recall that he asked whether he was doing it "right",or was suffering some level of diminished acumen because he wanted to do it this way,as opposed to how some others do it....
Late Bloomer the answer to your question is "yes", a 270 with 130 gr bullet zeroed 2.5 or so inches high will get you to 275 yards very easily,and you will be slighly low at 300 yards.
Shoot to confirm. You will kill a pile of game zeroed in this manner if you take the time to learn your rifle,and its' trajectory,and work on your field skills.And you will do it at all sorts of distances out to your self-imposed limits,whatever that may be.
I'm continually astonished by how some otherwise intelligent people here feel this compulsion to insult people who do not do things their way,rather than simply pass on the good information and experience they have obtained along the way.
He asked what do you all think? Pretty open ended question, of course Bob makes smart ass comments and in particular makes guesses about things.
I've seen many times with you Bob if it's not in your familiar old man camp way of doing things you do the typical left hand attacks.
Seems things like this give you a little sense of superiority.
I'm BOB I don't need nothing but a 4x scope and KNOW the best way to sight in. Anything other than the way BOB does it shows a lack of experience.
Just cuzz you generally post "nice: don't make you any less of a pompous prick.
Scott don't forget "obtuse"....
I am not going to engage you in a public debate on the matter. We have done that enough...apparently you don't like the way I do things and that's fine.....I've said many times ".....this is how I do it....do it your way...."
It seems to me that when someone does not do things "your way",they are in for a round of criticism and name calling and personal attacks. This apparently makes you feel pretty good about yourself,and given your general demeanor on here I am not surprised.People who are confronted by an alternative point of view they cannot handle frequently resort to child-like behavior for self-gratification; it gives them confidence they otherwise lack..I mean this is pretty apparent through a lot of posts.
So, apparently we have two standards on here....when the OP asks about a 4X(among other scopes),and I relate what I have done with them,and declare it "easy"(meaning BTW,I feel it is "enough" for the appointed task) I'm a (what?)....oh yeah..."pompous prick".....
But when Scott says...."spinning turrets is easy",or ..."killing shidt is easy".....or something else...then it is to be taken as gospel.I get the program.....
Where I come from we call that a "double standard"....At least I go to great lengths to avoid belittling people...you, OTOH seemed to have developed this into an "art form"..
Do me and yourself a favor,Scott...please put me on ignore because I intend to do the same to you.You really are not the type of person I care to have any involvement with....
You said it Bob! If you do things like Scott does them then you're right, if you don't then you get called childish names by him. I've seen enough of his posts to know that they are very light on substance and very big on pomposity. Please put me on ignore as well Scott.
Do you take a abacus with you when you hunt to calculate each shot?
No abacus needed. Just need to know the range (laser rangefinder), the windspeed courtesy of a windmeter and wind angle to line of fire, and a chart with windage for 10 mph crosswind at 25 yard intervals. I can do the mental math once I know the distance and crosswind component of the wind. If shooting out to 200 yards or a little further, the wind doesn't matter much, but any amount of range time with any appreciable wind shows what wind does once you get out to 300 yards or further.
On second thought, Mr. Moore, just ignore everything I've written about accounting for wind because obviously you don't need to know anything about wind for the shooting you do.
Do you take a abacus with you when you hunt to calculate each shot?
On second thought, Mr. Moore, just ignore everything I've written about accounting for wind because obviously you don't need to know anything about wind for the shooting you do.
It's a joke, don't take it personal. Abacus is funny.
Use what works for you. I'm killing 2 to 4 animals a year with one shot, so trying to change my mind on MPBR will be tough.
I think using MPBR is great out to a distance where the shooter has practiced sufficiently, so I'm not trying to change your mind. Using MPBR is one of a number of legitimate solutions, and it works particularly well for those who shoot a cartridge that is very flat shooting like a .270 Win.
You obviously aren't shooting animals much past 250 yards with any appreciable (10+ mph) crosswind if you aren't taking wind into account, so if that approach is working for you, then continue on until you run into a situation that changes your mind.
My last 5 kill were from 250, 225, 400, 285 and 325. No wind problems. I do shoot my gun a lot during the summer at milk jugs from 100 to 400 yards. I've never had wind issues.
FWIW, I have dots on a 6x42 on my 338 Ultra Mag, as well as a turret. I'm zero'd at 225. First dot goes 325, second dot will get me to 425. It's the only scope I have dots.
How do you folks sight-in your deer rifles for MPBR?
I have a 270W shooting a 130gr pill...My shots won't be longer than 275 yds...my comfort zone
Does a 2.5" zero @ 100 yds sound correct???
I'm only now trying to understand MPBR vs. doing calculations in the field for drop...someone told me just to sight-in like this and I'd be GOOD to GO...At 300yds I was told just hold up a tad higher from center of vitals...
What ya all think???
Take me to school somebody I'd appreciate it
The question of the OP seems pretty direct to me...so simple a child could understand it....he asked simply whether being zeroed 2.5" high at 100 yards would get him to 275 yards, the farthest he intended to shoot.
I don't recall that he asked whether he was doing it "right",or was suffering some level of diminished acumen because he wanted to do it this way,as opposed to how some others do it....
Late Bloomer the answer to your question is "yes", a 270 with 130 gr bullet zeroed 2.5 or so inches high will get you to 275 yards very easily,and you will be slighly low at 300 yards.
Shoot to confirm. You will kill a pile of game zeroed in this manner if you take the time to learn your rifle,and its' trajectory,and work on your field skills.And you will do it at all sorts of distances out to your self-imposed limits,whatever that may be.
I'm continually astonished by how some otherwise intelligent people here feel this compulsion to insult people who do not do things their way,rather than simply pass on the good information and experience they have obtained along the way.
He asked what do you all think? Pretty open ended question, of course Bob makes smart ass comments and in particular makes guesses about things.
I've seen many times with you Bob if it's not in your familiar old man camp way of doing things you do the typical left hand attacks.
Seems things like this give you a little sense of superiority.
I'm BOB I don't need nothing but a 4x scope and KNOW the best way to sight in. Anything other than the way BOB does it shows a lack of experience.
Just cuzz you generally post "nice: don't make you any less of a pompous prick.
Scott don't forget "obtuse"....
I am not going to engage you in a public debate on the matter. We have done that enough...apparently you don't like the way I do things and that's fine.....I've said many times ".....this is how I do it....do it your way...."
It seems to me that when someone does not do things "your way",they are in for a round of criticism and name calling and personal attacks. This apparently makes you feel pretty good about yourself,and given your general demeanor on here I am not surprised.People who are confronted by an alternative point of view they cannot handle frequently resort to child-like behavior for self-gratification; it gives them confidence they otherwise lack..I mean this is pretty apparent through a lot of posts.
So, apparently we have two standards on here....when the OP asks about a 4X(among other scopes),and I relate what I have done with them,and declare it "easy"(meaning BTW,I feel it is "enough" for the appointed task) I'm a (what?)....oh yeah..."pompous prick".....
But when Scott says...."spinning turrets is easy",or ..."killing shidt is easy".....or something else...then it is to be taken as gospel.I get the program.....
Where I come from we call that a "double standard"....At least I go to great lengths to avoid belittling people...you, OTOH seemed to have developed this into an "art form"..
Do me and yourself a favor,Scott...please put me on ignore because I intend to do the same to you.You really are not the type of person I care to have any involvement with....
Steelhead cannot handle a debate. Never has been able, never will. Whatever merit his point of view may have on a given subject is lost in a barrage of personal insults and attacks. The dude's best years were Jr. High and he's still livin' that dream.
With that said, if I'm running a turret I do what I believe he does- which is, a nominal 100-yd zero, which I can easily click up to a 200, or MPBR for that matter, zero if field circumstances dictate that.
It really is the most flexible and (once you get over any phobia of changing your zero around) the most "intelligent" way to do things. You gain everything, lose nothing. But it does require a scope with good repeatability and RTZ characteristics and some range time verifying that.
I fully understand, as a former Leupold junkie, how once you get the damn thing zeroed you just want to NOT TOUCH them knobs anymore. I get that. But if a guy is willing to turn em, and has a mechanically sound scope, zeroing at 100 and dialing to other zero's really makes a whole bunch of sense.
As to running an actual MPBR zero as a person's "one true zero"... eh, not for me. I don't want to be zeroed that high in some circumstances. But I can see it's merits in some terrain, for certain, and it's utter simplicity for a high percentage of game shots cannot be denied.
Steelhead cannot handle a debate. Never has been able, never will. Whatever merit his point of view may have on a given subject is lost in a barrage of personal insults and attacks. The dude's best years were Jr. High and he's still livin' that dream.
With that said.......
Typical liberal-esque smoke and mirrors blame shifting.....
There's no personal attack of your own, there, in that, Obama Boy?
Why are you posting on this thread anyway, you've led us to believe that you hunt in a deep dark rain forest where shots are quick and fast, at mere feet, and you need a hot chamber because every spit second counts.......
MPBR, BC's, best caliber, and best bullet, best this, best that,,. ect...shouldn't even mean dick to you.
Hell JeffObama, you don't even need a rifle up there in your Pacific coast jungle, just get a decent aluminum baseball bat and hide behind a tree.
Y'all have succeeded in taking me out of my happy place enough to where, yeah, I'll take a shot at SH or his ilk when it's there. Why the [bleep] not?!. You guys sure don't hold back.
But if the other guy is even reasonably polite, I'll debate a topic calmly, politely, and to the best of my ability, effectively. And BobinNH will back me up on that. He and I have had several "conversations" where we didn't agree but you know what, Rancho? Reasonable people can disagree in a reasonable manner.
Then there's YOU. The master of the snide, passive-aggresive little poke, usually contributing nothing of substance, and intended to annoy.
Steelhead cannot handle a debate. Never has been able, never will. Whatever merit his point of view may have on a given subject is lost in a barrage of personal insults and attacks. The dude's best years were Jr. High and he's still livin' that dream.
With that said.......
Typical liberal-esque smoke and mirrors blame shifting.....
There's no personal attack of your own, there, in that, Obama Boy?
Why are you posting on this thread anyway, you've led us to believe that you hunt in a deep dark rain forest where shots are quick and fast, at mere feet, and you need a hot chamber because every spit second counts.......
MPBR, BC's, best caliber, and best bullet, best this, best that,,. ect...shouldn't even mean dick to you.
Hell JeffObama, you don't even need a rifle up there in your Pacific coast jungle, just get a decent aluminum baseball bat and hide behind a tree.
But don't get a blue one...................
Bob is a friend, Steelhead is an azzhole who is poison to a forum and so are you, and I don't just hunt the deep dank chit, though I most certainly do that and not a little. Wanna see some eastern Oregon pics? It can be quite open. Terrain suited for a MPRZ with a .270 if a guy was so inclined.......
Y'all have succeeded in taking me out of my happy place enough to where, yeah, I'll take a shot at SH or his ilk when it's there. Why the [bleep] not?!.
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Then there's YOU. The master of the snide, passive-aggresive little poke, usually contributing nothing of substance, and intended to annoy.
Jeff and I have communicated many times on a variety of subjects and we find that we don't agree on practically anything!
.....but he does not take it personally,and neither do I...
I also communicate with lots of others who post here,by phone and email (I was on the phone for 45 minutes yesterday with Dober);two of my closest younger buddies(avid shooters/hunters both and widely traveled)show up at the range with a wide array of solid gear,some expensive,some not so,replete with turrets, variables, McSwirly,etc.....
I make fun of the McSwirly's and big scopes,the 300 and 338 RUM's and they make jokes about my pipsqweak 270's and 4X scopes and mousy wooden and synthetic stocks dating from the 80's.We laugh at the generation gaps and differences in tastes and methodologies,and plan hunts together.
Anthony and I shoot 500 yards together;he spins turrets on the 300 RUM,and I twist the 2.5-8 to 6X on the 7 mag and use the bottom post to aim.POI is the same for both;groups, ditto.
Point is,I don't knock him for his method,and he doesn't knock me for mine;we both kill game.We both know this.There is no "one upmanship" as is seen on here.I don't tell him he's "wrong",and he doesn't call me a "pompous prick" or tell me I'm "obtuse" for not using turrets, because he knows I have been doing it "my way",successfully for 30+years.....He knows full well the advantages and disadvantages of spinning turrets;and the advantages of my methods....
But for some reason....on here.....you mention a method,cite experience doing it a certain way...and the name calling begins by some who disagree,and the childish behavior kicks in......
One thing I've learned in 30 years of practicing law....when the conversation degenerates into personal attacks and name calling....you just lost the debate,even if you are "right". Some on here are not grown up enough to "get it".
Its maximum point blank range. The greatest distance that you can shoot directly at an animal without hitting over or under your kill zone. For my 270 its about 325 yards.
Interesting thread. I have in the last year gone to my 270 with a 130 partition as my all around rifle, which in Southern Idaho is all a guy needs. I get 3100fps and I am zeroed for 200 yards which puts me around 6" low at 300 and 20" low at 400. Simple and easy to remember. YMMV.
I have never used turrets. Using MPBR has worked fine for me, with the flat shooting calibers I have used. However, I am not along range hunter and have only taken a couple shots on game over 300 yards. Most of the game I have shot hasn't given me the time to deploy a rig like JWP uses. And this includes hunting in Montana, Alaska and Canada.
I can't understand why this thread got so acrimonious.
Turrets work, as does MPBR, and in fact they can work together. And you don't have to use a rifle that offends your esthetic senses, either. I have several very nice walnut-stocked rifles equipped with reliable scopes that can easily be cranked up for longer ranges, and look like "normal" scopes. One of them is my Heym .300 Winchester, with a Schmidt & Bender Summit that can easily be cranked up for shots out to 750 yards, though I have never taken a shot that far with it. The adjustment turrets are normal size, with caps, but are marked for cranking and can be easily rezeroed because they're marked that way too.
In fact many of today's scopes have adjustment dials that can be loosened to be set to a zero mark, with hashmarks that tell how many clicks you've cranked. As somebody already said, it isn't rocket science.
[/quote] In fact many of today's scopes have adjustment dials that can be loosened to be set to a zero mark, with hashmarks that tell how many clicks you've cranked. As somebody already said, it isn't rocket science. [/quote]
I thought I was only simpleton that noticed this. After zeroing all my scopes at 100 yds, I then spin the dial until the zero mark reads 'zero". It is easy to make adjustments from there w/o even having turrets, although it does take a few seconds longer and a penny or other tool to spin the adjustment.
I pulled out of this discussion when I saw it going south. Some people are unable to agree to disagree. Just because one guy does something different doesn�t necessarily make the other guy wrong....Unless it is voting for Obama. This does not apply to those that haven't actually done anything and just like to speculate....
Most of the game I have shot hasn't given me the time to deploy a rig like JWP uses.
That's a fairly common argument....
I can understand not having time when hunting doves, or rabbits, or grouse....but not having time to make a shot on big game just doesn't wash with me where the far reaches of MPBR or the need for turrets would be concerned.
If the animal is aware of the hunter enough to make it spook, then that lends very little to the ability of the hunter to actually hunt....especially at "long" range, which is the crux of this "debate" as JO wants to call it.
The concept of turrets is easy, if one takes a second to understand it.....
Using a 200 yard, or 250 yard zero with turrets is actually employing a form of MPBR. From the muzzle to 200, or 250, it's a simple matter of holding on a kill zone and squeezing the trigger. My ten point last year walked himself right into that "MPBR" and I didn't have to twist anything on him. 205 yards, bang flop, with a 208Amax out of my '06.
If the hunter is doing things right, an animal that is beyond that 200, or 250, yard zero is easily ranged, and easily range compensated for by twisting an ele turret. The shot is made, a follow up shot is readied just in case, and once death is confirmed the ele turret is returned to zero.
An accurate method to determine range, a range card (confirmed by actually shooting it) and an intimate knowledge of the shooting platform is all that's needed.
For me that's an LRF, a detailed dope card (much of which is committed to memory), and I shoot constantly off season.
There are sensible limitations that anyone with common sense would adhere to. Certain wind conditions will prevent me from taking a shot at game regardless of having a windage knob and a dope sheet. I also limit myself to a maximum effective range with each chambering. This is dictated by the level of energy at that range, and what the bullet will do there. With turrets I can certainly hit beyond that range but I won't depend on the physics to do the job it needs to do on the animal.
The animal too, is a determining factor. With my 243AI I will most definitely take a shot on a groundhog or coyote out to 1K, but the same load will never be fired at a deer beyond 500 yards. To make a 500 yard shot with that rifle and it's 200 yard zero, I would need to dial 7.25 MOA elevation. A full twist gives 15 MOA. Spinning to 7.25 on my M1's takes about one second....if a person can recognize whole numbers and count by 1/4's.
My guess is that typing the correct characters on a key board is much more difficult.....
Sure, everything I've mentioned can be done with dots instead of turrets, and to some extent MPBR, but to me those are just not as precise as dialing dope and pasting crosshairs. Not every shot on game is made under ideal conditions. There are enough external forces at play that without as much inherent precision as possible, a miss or wounding is too easy.
Noone will ever convince me that they can judge a distance by eye and hold over a shot with more precision than I can do with an LRF and turrets....ain't happening.
Turrets give you the precision not found BETWEEN the dots, and not found out further than MPBR allows. Anyone that feels they need to argue that is either one helluva great shot, or hasn't shot much at all.......
Lets see here�..you live in beautiful HI, have a son as a hunting partner, get to hunt Axis deer, have fresh venison in the cooler and need our support? You got a lot of nerve. Good thing you didn�t post this about mid February when we were buried in 2 foot of snow
"In fact many of today's scopes have adjustment dials that can be loosened to be set to a zero mark, with hashmarks that tell how many clicks you've cranked."
Thought I'd put this out there in case no one has seen how the Vortex Viper E and W adjustments work. That turret knob is spring loaded. Don't know if you could/should leave the E cap off for turret use in the field though.
Lets see here�..you live in beautiful HI, have a son as a hunting partner, get to hunt Axis deer, have fresh venison in the cooler and need our support? You got a lot of nerve. Good thing you didn�t post this about mid February when we were buried in 2 foot of snow
You sound like you got it pretty good !
Thank you brother....Hawaiian born and bred
It's HOME!!!!
Just want to expedite the LEARNING CURVE a wee bit...I know nothing can substitute TIME in the field,,,,
Most of the game I have shot hasn't given me the time to deploy a rig like JWP uses.
That's a fairly common argument....
I can understand not having time when hunting doves, or rabbits, or grouse....but not having time to make a shot on big game just doesn't wash with me where the far reaches of MPBR or the need for turrets would be concerned.
If the animal is aware of the hunter enough to make it spook, then that lends very little to the ability of the hunter to actually hunt....especially at "long" range, which is the crux of this "debate" as JO wants to call it.
The concept of turrets is easy, if one takes a second to understand it.....
Using a 200 yard, or 250 yard zero with turrets is actually employing a form of MPBR. From the muzzle to 200, or 250, it's a simple matter of holding on a kill zone and squeezing the trigger. My ten point last year walked himself right into that "MPBR" and I didn't have to twist anything on him. 205 yards, bang flop, with a 208Amax out of my '06.
If the hunter is doing things right, an animal that is beyond that 200, or 250, yard zero is easily ranged, and easily range compensated for by twisting an ele turret. The shot is made, a follow up shot is readied just in case, and once death is confirmed the ele turret is returned to zero.
An accurate method to determine range, a range card (confirmed by actually shooting it) and an intimate knowledge of the shooting platform is all that's needed.
For me that's an LRF, a detailed dope card (much of which is committed to memory), and I shoot constantly off season.
There are sensible limitations that anyone with common sense would adhere to. Certain wind conditions will prevent me from taking a shot at game regardless of having a windage knob and a dope sheet. I also limit myself to a maximum effective range with each chambering. This is dictated by the level of energy at that range, and what the bullet will do there. With turrets I can certainly hit beyond that range but I won't depend on the physics to do the job it needs to do on the animal.
The animal too, is a determining factor. With my 243AI I will most definitely take a shot on a groundhog or coyote out to 1K, but the same load will never be fired at a deer beyond 500 yards. To make a 500 yard shot with that rifle and it's 200 yard zero, I would need to dial 7.25 MOA elevation. A full twist gives 15 MOA. Spinning to 7.25 on my M1's takes about one second....if a person can recognize whole numbers and count by 1/4's.
My guess is that typing the correct characters on a key board is much more difficult.....
Sure, everything I've mentioned can be done with dots instead of turrets, and to some extent MPBR, but to me those are just not as precise as dialing dope and pasting crosshairs. Not every shot on game is made under ideal conditions. There are enough external forces at play that without as much inherent precision as possible, a miss or wounding is too easy.
Noone will ever convince me that they can judge a distance by eye and hold over a shot with more precision than I can do with an LRF and turrets....ain't happening.
Turrets give you the precision not found BETWEEN the dots, and not found out further than MPBR allows. Anyone that feels they need to argue that is either one helluva great shot, or hasn't shot much at all.......
Maybe I have been fortunate, but I have never had the oportunity to shoot at anything 500 yards away and that includes a fair bit of hunting out west. In my neck of the woods you might be able to watch a deer for hours and you might only catch a glimpse. I like to use my Geovids to range landmarks where I am hunting then I know exactly where I can and cant shoot. But in all honestly I cant say I have used this to good effect as most of my shots have been close enough that it doesnt matter with a flat shooting gun. I see and read alot about guys setting up for the long ball. IMO and IME I am better off practicing enough so I am able to hit anything out to 300 from field positions 100% of the time than worrying about shooting something 600 yards away. Besides I use sporter rifles which are not really suited to the long range game and I have no desire to tote around a rig like JWP's.
Most of the game I have shot hasn't given me the time to deploy a rig like JWP uses.
That's a fairly common argument....
I can understand not having time when hunting doves, or rabbits, or grouse....but not having time to make a shot on big game just doesn't wash with me where the far reaches of MPBR or the need for turrets would be concerned.
If the animal is aware of the hunter enough to make it spook, then that lends very little to the ability of the hunter to actually hunt....especially at "long" range, which is the crux of this "debate" as JO wants to call it.
The concept of turrets is easy, if one takes a second to understand it.....
Using a 200 yard, or 250 yard zero with turrets is actually employing a form of MPBR. From the muzzle to 200, or 250, it's a simple matter of holding on a kill zone and squeezing the trigger. My ten point last year walked himself right into that "MPBR" and I didn't have to twist anything on him. 205 yards, bang flop, with a 208Amax out of my '06.
If the hunter is doing things right, an animal that is beyond that 200, or 250, yard zero is easily ranged, and easily range compensated for by twisting an ele turret. The shot is made, a follow up shot is readied just in case, and once death is confirmed the ele turret is returned to zero.
An accurate method to determine range, a range card (confirmed by actually shooting it) and an intimate knowledge of the shooting platform is all that's needed.
For me that's an LRF, a detailed dope card (much of which is committed to memory), and I shoot constantly off season.
There are sensible limitations that anyone with common sense would adhere to. Certain wind conditions will prevent me from taking a shot at game regardless of having a windage knob and a dope sheet. I also limit myself to a maximum effective range with each chambering. This is dictated by the level of energy at that range, and what the bullet will do there. With turrets I can certainly hit beyond that range but I won't depend on the physics to do the job it needs to do on the animal.
The animal too, is a determining factor. With my 243AI I will most definitely take a shot on a groundhog or coyote out to 1K, but the same load will never be fired at a deer beyond 500 yards. To make a 500 yard shot with that rifle and it's 200 yard zero, I would need to dial 7.25 MOA elevation. A full twist gives 15 MOA. Spinning to 7.25 on my M1's takes about one second....if a person can recognize whole numbers and count by 1/4's.
My guess is that typing the correct characters on a key board is much more difficult.....
Sure, everything I've mentioned can be done with dots instead of turrets, and to some extent MPBR, but to me those are just not as precise as dialing dope and pasting crosshairs. Not every shot on game is made under ideal conditions. There are enough external forces at play that without as much inherent precision as possible, a miss or wounding is too easy.
Noone will ever convince me that they can judge a distance by eye and hold over a shot with more precision than I can do with an LRF and turrets....ain't happening.
Turrets give you the precision not found BETWEEN the dots, and not found out further than MPBR allows. Anyone that feels they need to argue that is either one helluva great shot, or hasn't shot much at all.......
Maybe I have been fortunate, but I have never had the oportunity to shoot at anything 500 yards away and that includes a fair bit of hunting out west. In my neck of the woods you might be able to watch a deer for hours and you might only catch a glimpse. I like to use my Geovids to range landmarks where I am hunting then I know exactly where I can and cant shoot. But in all honestly I cant say I have used this to good effect as most of my shots have been close enough that it doesnt matter with a flat shooting gun. I see and read alot about guys setting up for the long ball. IMO and IME I am better off practicing enough so I am able to hit anything out to 300 from field positions 100% of the time than worrying about shooting something 600 yards away. Besides I use sporter rifles which are not really suited to the long range game and I have no desire to tote around a rig like JWP's.
SW VA has all kinds of potential for a long shot, and we're not skeered to take advantage of it.....
Per sporter rifles:
Here's one....
Short barrel, low X glass, with an 8 year old driving it in the wind, turrets.....and 5 for 5 hits at 500+.
Go long or go home....A guy I guided a couple years ago. This buck was laying out on an open sagebrush hillside with a handfull of does. No way to cut the distance. I offered to loan my rifle for the shot. We were 600 meters from this buck. We waited for him to stand up and from a rock solid rest he put one .308 155gr scenar through this bucks lungs. It was dead calm. A crisp November morning with no mirage....this guy had never fired this rifle before. He had no idea how far the shot was until it was over...when he asked how far 600 meters was I said you'll find out when we start walking over to get him...
Granted this rifle isnt one you would carry around the mountains all day but for a lot of hunting in Eastern Montana it works just fine...glad I had it along that day!!
We found this 28" buck the evening before and ran out of daylight. So the next morning we walked about 2 miles in the dark, hoping to catch him going back to bed down...it worked out fine but the closest we could get to him was 430 meters. We were up on a high bluff with the sun at our backs. John killed him with one well placed 165gr accubond from his .308. It was basically a chip shot for that rifle.
One of my favorites...My cousin comes out and we hunt antelope every year. This is his buck from 2 years ago, taken with his 7MM Dakota. This was also a 500+ meter shot. He shoots 168gr Berger VLD's. That setup is an absolute hammer!!
One of my favorites...My cousin comes out and we hunt antelope every year. This is his buck from 2 years ago, taken with his 7MM Dakota. This was also a 500+ meter shot. He shoots 168gr Berger VLD's. That setup is an absolute hammer!!
Now that to me is one cool pic! For me there's something about hunting critters in the snow and lopes/yotes and bruins are some of my fav.
All bullets have a trajectory no matter how they are zeroed....if you zero at 100 yards,you are "under" the crosshairs at some distances and "over" them at others.If there is no time to click up or down you are "guessing"This is hunting;not banging steal gongs. Or shooting varmints like woodchucks and coyotes.
Common sense should prevail; if you hunt varmints, change up; I don't zero a varmint rifle like a Swift the same way.Anyone with half a brain gets that....cripes....
In some places game animals are stupid and common. There is all kinds of time for any bizarre zero you choose to use, and make adjustments.
In other places a trophy mule deer or whitetail is completely aware of you at common distances to 300 yards, and do not generally stand around while you dick with extraneous gear.
I LMAO when I hear MPBR is not "precise enough".... this demonstrates lack of experience.
My best friend and me with his first buck...he used my old .270. I really cherish this photo as a great memory of my friend who lost his life in a car wreck when he was only 21...We still spend time together up on the mountain..
My best friend and me with his first buck...he used my old .270. I really cherish this photo as a great memory of my friend who lost his life in a car wreck when he was only 21...We still spend time together up on the mountain..
One of the best pics, and statements seen 'round here in a LONG time.
w-walker- Great video!! Kinda makes me feel lame for not know how to use my turrets better!
Scenarshooter- I seriously hope you've kept some sort of journal/log of these hunt to go along with the pics. If not, I would recommend you start and even try to catch up from years past. Might not seem like a big deal now, but your boys will cherish it to no end someday down the road. My dad, who passed in '08 at 58, didn't take a whole lot of pics nor write anything down. I really wish he had so I could relive them and share them with his grandsons. Thanks for sharing the pics and stories with us.
pointer, Thanks!! Believe it or not I've kept detailed journals of all the outdoor things in my life since 1968. Back then it started out as a school assignment...I kinda got hooked on it and have been doing it ever since....some of it is pretty funny stuff. But its all there...all hand written too as I'm the worlds worst typest...thats one class I wish I would have taken back in the day.
I still have thousands of old pictures that need to be scanned...gives me something to do when the weather is too lousy to hunt coyotes. I keep adding a few here and there.
SS- Good to hear! If you ever need help getting any of that typed, let me know. Seriously! I've tried to get things down, but haven't been as terribly dilligent as I should have. But, with son #2 coming next month I'm planning on getting caught up.
EZ: Yeah! Most were great good fortune....but all are 270/7 mag MPBR victims;some short range and some longish......which maybe goes to show both methods work if a guy is familiar with each of them.
And a guy could use both methods in the same setup, so he has the ability to reach with precision through his turrets beyond practical MPBR...
Steelhead has opened my mind up a bit and I am going to shop this week for a suitable scope to give it a try with some "clicking"....
And if you happen to need a new home I can sell you some Montana land and Brad can build you a fine custom on it...grin
Only problemo is that there's no big bucks left here so you'll have to keep traveling..
Dober
(side note, I just got back from the range doing some dicking with clicking, gotta remember to move that darn turret back to zero though...tough thing for the challenged like me)
Hell,I never new what MPBR was until I got a computer just six years ago but I did know where my rifle hit at 1-2-3 and 400 yards,just from doing it.
I'm not against those that use computer tech to figure out where there bullet might strike,but I have always done my own homework needing the game to get my family through the winter which I was usually,layed off with only unemployment to get us through.
I know a tone of people living away from the city's that would never think of using a computer program(if they had one and most don't)to tell them where to aim or start clicking scopes to hit the target...
Neither is wrong,but it's hard to fix something that ain't broke for alot of people that lead a totally different life style and live the life 24/7 rather than a week or two hunt.
Then we agree..Sometimes people are to hard on the new guys asking,to them,an honest question that is old news for the old dogs and flames and insults fly.Not fair to the poster wanting to learn,in most cases,what alot of us already know..My learning was on the job training from childhood without a magazine or the net, which I am not knocking.
Different strokes for different folks and no one has to be wrong..Experiences differ and nothing is written in stone when it comes to hunting!!!!!!!
Don't care what something says something should do at 387 yards, the only way I know is if I shoot it at that distance, to not only verify the rig but me.
Course they tend to be fairly good at predicting drop if you know velocity. Hit a Crown Royal box on the second shot at 700 yards from running numbers. Only required an extra .5 MOA dialed in from what the program spit out.
A couple years ago I passed on a long shot with my .300 Win Mag because the Elk were so little through my 3-9X scope and at a walk up hill from the creek with a mild breeze...I later filled my tag with a closer shot but it got me as to how far that was.
My wife bought me a cheap rangefinder for Christmas and we went back the nest year with an empty freezer box marked as an Elk with a 10" kill zone...Different conditions wind wise,but I would have hit that puppy where it would have needed to be hit...But I chose not to under those conditions that were down hill at a good grade and breezy...
It's almost impossible to do every angle or grade in every condition and get it right..But that's hunting.
I think the biggest problem with computer ballistics (Like Quick Load) is the things they do not take into thought,like winds..
I worked under three Logging Company Helicopter companies.Columbia/Croman and Intermountain and never saw one year where one didn't almost go down from the unseen winds the average person doesn't...
Anyone who has ever fought Forest Fires as I have, on the ground, knows winds are a killer and have had friends killed by them,one a smoke jumper.They come from know where..What's calm on a ridge can be violent in a draw..
One of Idaho's Senators(also a logging contractor) was killed in a helicopter crash looking at a new job..I can't spell his name ebven though I worked for him..Sverstein.
Spend enough time in the woods,and you know winds come from know where whenever they want..More than one of my friends have been seriously hurt falling tree's from the unseen winds that just happen.
Dead nuts on at 100 allows me to thread a needle in the bush, which is almost always under a 100 yards and also allows for a blinker shot far more easily than 3" high. Nothing beats having the bullet go where the crosshairs are planted, a fact that escapes many.
Course I'm not prone to stick it in a chicks belly button cuzz it's going to high for close range work.
3" high at 100 don't help me much here.
Seen this pic a few times, been meaning to ask how far away was this critter and did you ever find out if it was a buck or a doe? It reminds me a lot of where I got older (note I didn't say grew up...grin) in Northern Minne where we hunted whitey's in the thick and nasty hardwoods and swamps. Think our close shots were in the 4 yd to 8 yd ranges.
Thx Dober
It's a buck, if you look up off to the left side you will see a little bit of ORANGE antler. I'd say distance was 60'ish yards.
So if I hear what you're saying right Steely, one of the reasons you prefer to be sighted spot on @ 100 (over 3" high @ 100) is that if you need you can hold spot on for a blinker shot on a buck like this @ 60 yds right, where as if you were sighted 3" high at 100 then you'd have to correct the hold a bit to do a spot on shot to the blinker?
I've not done a spot on @ 100 sighting and then back up to see where the bullet hit @ 75/50/25 etc for a long long time so I can't recall for sure or not but I'd think that your bullet would be a bit down from your crosshairs @ 60 yds with a 100 yd sighting and not spot on...?
I've come to appreciate the elegance of a 100-yd baseline zero with the ability to click up to a 200-yd or MPBR zero as desired. Or click to whatever "zero" (range).
I also very much appreciate the "locked down" aspect of a "Dober Dotz" equipped rifle. Get it set up, don't touch it. Pretty cool.
Can't like being stuck with a MPBR zero, though I can appreciate the simplicity out to it's limits.
See, what bugs me there is being ~2" high in that 60-yard-ish range. For many if not most hunting situations- no big deal. Point conceded. But I'm setting stuff up to work best for ME and I kill the large majority of my big game in that 40-60 yard window and speaking of windows it's not uncommon to be shooting through one in the brush! Being more or less dead-nuts out to 100 yds keeps it stupidly simple. Which suits me.
And not to belabor the point but say I'm taking my '06 or .325 or whatever into more open terrain- which could be as simple as a clear cut or could be Colorado or wherever- all I have to do is unscrew my turret cap and turn the turret 8-10 clicks "up", and now I'm at a 200-yd zero give or take. Simple.
What this requires is a willingness to turn those turrets. What THAT requires is a scope you trust. And what THAT requires is putting the scope through it's paces; I budget about 200 rounds minimum just to get comfy with a scope's RTZ and tracking capabilities, and if that goes well, to shoot at further ranges to verify come-ups.
Hey Bob- which conquests do you have again? The little stock turret on those is completely usable as-is as a low-profile hunting turret. And my half dozen Conq's have all tracked well. If you feel like clickin' and dickin' that'd be a good place to start. Cheap.
Your argument for your method makes a lot of sense, especially when you added the part about the 8-10 click comeups. And I certainly can relate to "stupid simple."
I thought mathman nailed it early in the thread - the variances caused by group size (shooter/rifle error) and that allowed by MPBR are *additive* and so the usual MPBR story of being safely within the edge of the vitals at max MPBR range doesn't apply - at that edge range you have a 50% chance of being completely out of the vitals because of the added variance caused by group size. Using turrets to recenter the potential group at the center of the vitals would avoid this. It doesn't matter that you aren't shooting the "rest" of that group - the group size is indicative of the probabilities.
I thought mathman nailed it early in the thread - the variances caused by group size (shooter/rifle error) and that allowed by MPBR are *additive* and so the usual MPBR story of being safely within the edge of the vitals at max MPBR range doesn't apply - at that edge range you have a 50% chance of being completely out of the vitals because of the added variance caused by group size. Using turrets to recenter the potential group at the center of the vitals would avoid this. It doesn't matter that you aren't shooting the "rest" of that group - the group size is indicative of the probabilities.
This is why I do not use a vital zone the size of the actual vitals instead I use say a 2" vital zone radius leaving a little room for shooter error. With a 2" vital zone (4" total) It gets you out to around 300 yards before you have to start spinning turrets.
I run MPBR on my rifles with turrets I mostly hunt open county glassing large clear cuts so it works for me. If I go into the timber or brush I turn it down to a 100 yard zero, but mostly I keep it on MPBR and if I see something farther I spin the turrets from there.
Jeff, I have 4X Conquests; MagMarc told me that he has clicked up with the Conquests. I know from zeroing them that they track very well.
If memory serves you even have a spare 4x, right? Might have to try and pry that away from you someday <grin>. Anyway pop the cap off the elevation turret and look at the little turret under there. Note that after zeroing the rifle, you can lift it up and align the hash marks to the reference mark. If you do this such that all the has marks are in the "up" direction, it's very intuitive which way to turn it, visually. And it's turning the exact same erector as the bigger "target" turret would.
Furthermore, if you buy a roll of white electrical tape at the hardware store, and an ultrafine Sharpie, and use a dime as a template to cut out a circle in the tape... then it fits right on top of that turret like it was made for it <g>. Now use the sharpie to make marks- I use numbers like "4" for 400 yds- at however many clicks it takes to get to those numbers, and hey looky here, you now have a turret custom- calibrated in yards for your load, for about $4.
The sharpie is waterproof on the tape, and the tape is waterproof. Only downside is, you'll probably hafta buy a multipack of colored tape, and you'll end up with a roll of the blue stuff.... and that is a sure ticket to Turdsville!
I thought mathman nailed it early in the thread - the variances caused by group size (shooter/rifle error) and that allowed by MPBR are *additive* and so the usual MPBR story of being safely within the edge of the vitals at max MPBR range doesn't apply - at that edge range you have a 50% chance of being completely out of the vitals because of the added variance caused by group size. Using turrets to recenter the potential group at the center of the vitals would avoid this. It doesn't matter that you aren't shooting the "rest" of that group - the group size is indicative of the probabilities.
This is why I do not use a vital zone the size of the actual vitals instead I use say a 2" vital zone radius leaving a little room for shooter error. With a 2" vital zone (4" total) It gets you out to around 300 yards before you have to start spinning turrets.
I run MPBR on my rifles with turrets I mostly hunt open county glassing large clear cuts so it works for me. If I go into the timber or brush I turn it down to a 100 yard zero, but mostly I keep it on MPBR and if I see something farther I spin the turrets from there.
I must suck as a rifle shot.....
No acrimony intended .......
........ but I keep reading about all these theoretical reasons telling me why a 3" zero won't work,that I will shoot over them because of my group dispersion(I have rarely been able to shoot a group in an animal),why I can't shoot through windows in the brush,I can't hit "precisely" at distances 250-400 yards,etc etc.
I truly wish I could agree with you guys but as a practical matter I have encountered so few difficulties from 20 feet to 400 yards that I'd have to wrack my brain to come up with them.......I dunno.... confusing to me
Nothing wrong with the way you do it Bob I am certainly not trying to persuade you in any way. Just giving my perspective on what I do. Hell the way you do it is the way my Dad taught me growing up I have just adapted to my own way. Different strokes
This is why I do not use a vital zone the size of the actual vitals instead I use say a 2" vital zone radius leaving a little room for shooter error.
I feel the same and if I were to run a scope using MPBR I'd do the exact same thing. I don't like my bullets hitting too high at the shorter ranges, even though most of the game I take is beyond them.
I guess I'm in the minority here as I don't think I've seen any one mention ballistic reticles (maybe I missed it). It's more natural for me to worry about compensating for bullet drop than to worry about how high I might hit at whatever range I'm shooting. So I prefer to zero like so:
Standard caliber: Zero at 100 yards. "Magnum" or any flat shooting caliber: Zero at 200 yards.
I Use the "tick marks" to help compensate for drop. No clicking or re-zeroing for different distances. You just need to learn what distances the tick marks really mean for your rifle and load. With a standard caliber I'm good out to 450 to 500 yards and with a flat shooter I'm good out to 575 to 625. I hunt pretty open country more often than not, but that's still more than enough distance for my own needs.
A flat shooter zero'd at 200 puts me about 1.5" high at 100 and a about 1.6" high between 110-130 yards. That's not enough above the line of sight that I feel like I have to worry about compensating for it at any distance.
I have rarely been able to shoot a group in an animal
You keep saying this, but I don't understand it. How does the fact that you're (hopefully) only firing one shot insulate that particular shot from the influences that may prevent it from hitting dead center if it were the first in a group instead?
BTW, I haven't said any particular method will or won't work, does or doesn't work, whatever. I'm just interested in seeing how people account for the size of the envelope their bullets are supposed to travel in.
Took this buck a few years ago, shot was 500+..set up, ranged, dialed and drilled him..I even had to remove a the cover off the turret,and gasp, chamber a round!!
The reason I started twisting turrets? Tired of missing! takes the guess work out..if its far enough to need to dial in, you have time..If you feel like your missing out by taking a hail mary @ 400+ from your knee, then I guess you wont want to take the 2-3 seconds to dial in..but it sure feels good when you know where the bullets going!
Not saying the guys that are proficient with MPBR are taking pot shot's..but i bet you aren't taking off hand shots @ 350+,and while your getting your rest figured out/set up, dialing in becomes automatic at the same time...just my way.
No Rosco, off hand shots at 350 yards are not part of the agenda....I killed a MD buck at 340 last year;I did not guess,did not miss, and he is dead....arrived from taxidermist this week.
No Rosco, off hand shots at 350 yards are not part of the agenda....I killed a MD buck at 340 last year;I did not guess,did not miss, and he is dead....arrived from taxidermist this week.
No, and they aren't for anyone that wants to hit what they're shooting at.My post was not directed at one single person.And I didn't say guys were guessing that utilize MPBR, and are proficient at it. rather to the crowd that thinks they are missing out if they dont get a shot at a fleeing animal at 300+, that is a pot shot at best..in country with that type of open terrain, i'd rather get a rest, range, and usually you will get a chance, it may be at 500+, but to me thats better than an off hand runner @ 300 every time..and i really dont know why I'm explaining what should be incredibly obvious (to me anyway..everyone has their methods)
No Rosco, off hand shots at 350 yards are not part of the agenda....I killed a MD buck at 340 last year;I did not guess,did not miss, and he is dead....arrived from taxidermist this week.
Jeff, I have 4X Conquests; MagMarc told me that he has clicked up with the Conquests. I know from zeroing them that they track very well.
Bob, Shot the 270 with with Conquest last night. After twisting it all over the place Sunday afternoon it was dead nutz back to zero last night.
That's my experience with my Conquests (1.8-5.5, 3-9, 3.5-10, and 6.5-20). Excellent tracking (which includes excellent RTZ and repeatability).
Marc, are you using the stock lil' turret or did you upgrade to the target turrets?
At any rate: Bob, fixed 4x notwithstanding, you likely have a great scope there to mess with clickin' if you want to join us in the 21st century.
(just as an aside, I first tried pure holdover with a duplex. I understand you've got that down to an art form but boy, of the three ways I've shot LR (holdover, reticles, turrets) holdover was by far the least consistant for me)
At any rate: Bob, fixed 4x notwithstanding, you likely have a great scope there to mess with clickin' if you want to join us in the 21st century.
Jeff I will play with it; maybe set up a rifle with a scope dedicated to the purpose so i can do some practice.It should useful for varmints.
So far, the 21st century has brought us Open Borders, Illegal Aliens, Barak Obama, and Nationalized Health Care; not to mention the fringe lunatic arm of the Democratic party and total collapse of the world economy at the hands of the socialists......and you expect me to trust valuable shots at BG animals to the advise the "in crowd " of the 21st Century?
Pure stock on the turrets for now. I have a 4x32 Conquest on 30-06 I've been clicking all over the place along with the 3x9 on the 270. I have a spare 4x32 I'm thinking of sending in for the target turret.
I have the target turrets on my big Conquest, and they are nice. Beefy suckers.
But I find the stock turret to be very usable. It's a great design. My Swaro AV has a similar stock turret which was one reason I bought it.
I was looking at a Kahles scope today at the gunshop and noticed it's stock turret is more like a Leup from the VXIII era. The Conquest has it all over those designs IMHO; I'm surprised they don't pimp it more as, well, a turret.
It's 33 but the Conquest has the re-settable zero. Just dial it back down to zero line. The biggest problem with the stock Zeiss turret is the lack of numbers on the turret and you have to count,the zero mark is easy to pick back up though. The target turret will be much better for field use.
I'm also playing with a Vortex Viper on a 280 and its turrets are marked nothing else needed.
I get it.....just pull up on the turret and run it to the last hash mark;that sets the "zero"(I'm 3" up @100 and 4" low at 300 with my load,165 @2900)I will not change that part of it. I'm too used to it that way.I will need less adjustment for 500 than you do....
To return to zero, just run back to the zero setting...that's it?
I may take today off.....but I'm going bass fishing
Ingwe you are witnessing a huge leap of faith here.....but I'm so bruised about the head and shoulders for not spinning turrets that I'm compelled to try it out.I'm leaving my old 3" high zero the same;won't change that.....I will try this to get to 500....
If this works I will pray to gawd I don't see an outsized buck at 550 yards this season.....
Actually Bob, in my brief turret spinning experience,past 400 yards is where turrets really seemed to come into their own.. It really does help to shoot the difference between 500 and 550 yards... I just don't shoot those ranges at game...maybe I should, but I just don't put in the range/trigger time that I feel I should to be ethical at those ranges...( Knowing my own limitations etc... )
Actually Bob, in my brief turret spinning experience,past 400 yards is where turrets really seemed to come into their own.. It really does help to shoot the difference between 500 and 550 yards...
Ingwe
Well I agree completely;I don't need them to 400 with about any rifle I hunt with...500 does get dicey,but I have killed that far away(3 times in 30+ years IIRC),and do shoot 500 regularly enough to know what to do...if I have to.....but I can see how this can make it a bit easier.
The good scopes are trustworthy, and a good one with turrets plus an LRF can make it all good...
Ive shot three elk with turrets...but no really long shots ( 500 was the max..the other two were both hanging around 450..) Used turrets and an LRF on a Prarie Dog Management thing for a Range Consultant freind...one of those situations where missing the PD only educated them, and I needed to kill them...the combination worked great there, got a never-before-achieved shot to kill ratio...
Twisting turrets certainly is a test of your skill and the precision of the scope brand, but 500+ yards....... I don't feel comfortable with that. Al Qaida up in the mountains, yes, a mule deer, no. Test your stalking skills instead. Too much bad stuff can happen on the way to 500+ yards. Just saying........
bigwhoop:A 500 yard mule deer was previously wounded by a companion...I administered the coup de grace.
The other two kills at that distance were both elk,and there was no route for a closer opportunity...it was do or die from there,but I was comfy with those shots,having shot a good deal to that distance and beyond..conditions were good and I had prepared for the contingency.It worked out OK.
Conversely, I have walked away from a pretty large buck at 550(lazed);too late in the day to risk it;....and the biggest elk I will likely ever have a crack at in AZ;distance was 550-600 but the wind was howling....I passed and spent two hours crossing the canyon,closed to about 50 yards,and could not get a shot through the oak brush.....he was an easy B&C candidate and I'm certain he's dead by now...but it was not meant to be for me that day.
Bob, It doesn't surprise me that you have dispatched several animals at extended ranges just as it doesn't surprise me that you have made decisions to pass on great animals where you determined the shot to be too difficult. The latter IMO is tougher than the former.
Dave: I grind my teeth thinking about THAT bull because it took place on the Dry Lake Unit of the San Carlos Apache Reservation in AZ.....I hunted it before the prices went into the stratosphere...to do it today would likely cost $25k or more...last time I checked,you could add on top of that some $15k-$25k or something stupid as a trophy fee for a bull of his caliber....I was into the hunt all up for $5k....I will never be able to afford that hunt again.If he did not score in the 400 range he was not far from it.
And it was NOT easy....I hunted hard,10 days,to get that one crack...
Bob. I feel your pain although that particular pain sounds pretty intense. Those circumstances were definitley tough. Had you known that 10 years later that hunt would be 25 to 40K a guy might have got a pad and pencil out and tried to dope that wind. Like I said I am not surprised you decided against that shot. 10 days to get that opportunity is a long time and a lot of wear on a pair of boots. Would have been nice to have had your 7 Mag with a load worked up possibly using the 168 Berger and what we know about it today. Trouble with all of that is if that wind is howling everything is still awful iffy. I hope one of these days our paths cross on a mountain somewhere.
Dober,you can't see it because of the angle,but the drop tine buck has a 7-8" kicker coming off the back, right above the drop point. I'll get you another pic and email it.
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Stuff1/Nov11deer.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Texas/SDC10230.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Texas/SDC10231.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://img293.imageshack.us/i/projectpics0032.jpg/)
![[Linked Image]](http://img27.imageshack.us/i/img0636ob.jpg/)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Rifle1/Grouse.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/PMIIturret001.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/PMIIturret002.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/bearhunt2010016.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Rifle1/Range.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Rifle1/Eber2.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Rifle1/Eber1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Picture063.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/bearhunt2010002.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/IMG_1286.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/ElkHuntNewMexico2008063.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/optics/Img_1207.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/optics/Img_1203.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Picture055-1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Picture059.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Picture055.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/ElkHuntNewMexico2008062.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/maryandearl/xx.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/IMG_0398.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0007-4.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/IMG_1242.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0011-1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0004-11.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0014-10.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0019-3.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0025-4.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0003-6.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/scan0015-9.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp83/skane_image/Deer002.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp83/skane_image/Deer005.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp83/skane_image/Deer010.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp83/skane_image/Deer011.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg342/steveberrett/IMG-1.jpg)