I keep hearing rumors and was wondering if it's true.




Shod

No it's the .275 Rigby

Cats are mousers not 7x57s.

Regarding the 7x57 Mauser it is timeless.

It's gonna be mine.

One of my all time favorites.

BTW, the Rigby is a pretentious English poser cartridge. All of mine are marked correctly with 7X57 or 7MM Mauser.

Mine are marked 7mm-08

Amen...pretentious...and hard to find brass...:)

Which campfire? It has been the cartridge at my campfire for quite a few years.

I'm working up a B-29 necked down to 7mm, and Acley-ized, with custom 200 grain solid copper bullets turned individually on a water powered lathe, driven with black powder. I betcha that'll be the new Campfire Up-and-Comer.

It'll be one helluva Mouser!

Not anymore.

http://www.hornady.com/store/275-Rigby

Not to mention the ease of making it out of '06 brass.

Or just sticking 7X57 brass in it since that's all it is anyway

It is not the campfire cartridge of 2016, it is the campfire cartridge of all time!

No it is so passé, this years flavour of the year is the 22lr.

By virtue of limited rounds availbale...to you anyway, I have organised a case of 5000 Winchester subsonics, because I can...and because I suspect that it will be handy to have those on hand sometime in the future.

Yep this or its son Bob which seems a perennial favorite as well?

gads...designer brass...

That reminds me of the cartridge I thought of as "Campfire Cartridge of 2015", the 6.5 RSAUM for which Hornady made a limited run of brass.

Oddly enough, while Hornady offers loaded ammo marked both 7x57 and .275 Rigby, only the Rigby marked brass is offered to reloaders.

Well, the 7x57 has proved to be too much gun for me--too powerful--am dropping down to a 6.5-257 for some of the chores this year...

the marketing departments job is to make money, not sense

Elmer Keith is smiling at the appellation "mouser" to a needle blower caliber like the 7 mm!

That more accurately seems to be the "trend" around the Campfire for more than 2016.



Jerry

Jerry,

You actually see a "trend" here on the Fire...

Doesn't a trend require direction...??



DF

WEll, why don't you go to 284-257 Roberts?


Jerry

Maybe not exotic enought, but how about a plain ole .257R or a 6.5 Swede?

Got'em both, like'em both.

DF

"Is the 7x57 mouser the campfire cartridge of 2016?" No,it's the .270 the "happy" cartridge everyone should own.

Starting in 1961 with a Chilean Mod 95, the 7x57 was my mule deer, Coues and elk cartridge for a long time. Still use it - still the favorite.

It is for me for all time, not just 2016.

Such a great cartridge deserves it and I thoroughly enjoy it.

Easy to load, easy to shoot, and kills stuff quickly and cleanly if I do my part.

Steve

.257 Rob, 6.5x55, 7x57, & 30-06; no self-respecting rifleman should be without ANY of those IMHO.

Well stated, I agree.

The absence of the ".270" is glaring...



DF

he said "rifleman"...

To answer the original question, if not it should be. Too bad we can't get enough people to make the publishers of load data to furnish us with proper load data for modern rifles. They do it for the 45-70 and .45 Long Colt so why not the 7x57? Maybe they're afraid it'll kill of the 7-08 or some such other bad deed.

I've seen data worked up by a man that took a 150 gr. Nosler Partition to 2900+ FPS in a Winchester M70 Featherweight. I have since seen quick load data that backs up what he did. For the record I corresponded with the gentleman about his at a which he generously gave and repeated his pressure trials. Velocity level reached was 2910 FPS from a matching M70 Featherweight. Only difference was IIRC he used Lapua brass and I used Winchester. On, and my rifle has a Pachmeyr Decelerator recoil pad so my wife can use the rifle if she wants. Different scope if that's worth anything.

So, will that load work in other rifles? I don't know. I think it migh work in my Ruger #1A in 7x57 but I have serious doubts it would in a custom Mauser I own. It has an extremely tight chamber, so tight that the normally seen pressure ring almost does not exist in cartridges fired in that rifle. One series of test loads showed velocity from that rifle to be 150 FPS faster than the other two rifles. Gonna have to watch load work up in that rifle very closely.

Anyone interested in checking that out can go to the Nosler forum and do a search. The quick load stuff is there with a couple of charts with H4350 IIRC. The other is for RE17.
Paul B.

Yep,

"Self respecting rifleman..."

DF

Amen to all of it! The old Hornady book that Roundoak posted, backing up Seafire's 3031 load, has better reloading data than the new Hornady book. I'm with you: the manuals ought to bring the data up to date.

And in keeping with the 7x57 being the 2016 Campfire cartridge - not that Derrick would be interested after his experience with the first two Campfire rifles - how about MRC 1999, stainless, 22 inch Featherweight contour, European 1:220 mm (1:866 inch) twist, bedded in one of the X2 stocks? If it was weatherproofed and bedded in one of their Boyds, then a nice red Decelerator would be nice. I need a rough weather 7x57 to match the fit and feel of my Featherweights. I'd buy one; I expect my BIL would buy one too...anyone else? I think we'd only need 28 more buyers to make it happen.

I was up late last night reading about the 6.5x55 Swede. It all started after I handled a beat up Mauser M12 last month at Cabela's Gun Library. It felt great in the hand, but they had it priced comparable to a new one online and it was a 270. Anyway, I figured it would be appropriate to perpetuate the confusion by chambering a modern Mauser in the Swede.

I can't find any 7x57 brass so I bought a 7mm08. Cant find any brass for that either but I was able to buy loaded rounds to get the brass.

Seek and ye' shall find.

It is a veritable work horse in the big game fields.

I couldn't agree more. With the exception of the brick of CCI Quiet 22s, it's all 7x57...even the 13 boxes of .275 Rigby.

ammoseek.com and gunbot.com are your friends....

Ding! Ding!

WINNER - best post of 2016!



Jerry

Well, 'backwards' is a direction....I guess.


Jerry

Geez, Rev it is one thing to have plenty on hand, but that is hoarding.

Maybe 1816, but not 2016.

I'd be more likely to suggest the 6.5 Creed for the darling of 2016, as it's being chambered in more and more factory rifles each year. Not that an animal hit with a 130gr 6.5mm at 2,850fps is going to be able to tell the difference between that and a 140gr 7mm at the same speed......

What do you mean? It's only one brick.

Ruger 77 tang 7x57, the same gun Dennis Hall used for his load development in Handloader Mag. Dennis ended up with some off the chart performance. I traded my 7x57 CZ 550 FS and the article as well as my load data went with the gun.

I tried to pull the article up on line, but without success. Anyone with a Handloader Mag. subscription could probably get a copy of Dennis' article. Interesting for sure.

Those guns, reportedly, have long throats and are very strong, both needed to survive Dennis' loads...

DF

"Karamoja" Bell's .275 Rigby
Walter Bell’s .275 Rigby is one of the best known rifles in the world.
By Harry Selby
9/16/2010
The year was 1956. Bob Ruark and I were standing at the customs desk in the old Nairobi airport building. He’d just arrived on a flight from London and had brought two rifles, which we were about to clear through customs. His bringing rifles surprised me because he wasn’t planning to hunt, having come out to Kenya on this trip only to collect material for an article about the “winds of change” blowing across Africa. When the gun cases were opened Bob lifted out a slim little Rigby rifle from one and handed it to me.
“What do you think of this, Haraka?” he asked. I looked down at the little rifle in my hands. It had seen plenty of honest use, but looked to be well-cared for and in very good shape. “Turn it over,” Bob said, grinning. When I did so, I noticed an elongated silver plaque let into the stock where a monogram plate would normally be. It read: “Mark R. Selby From Uncle Bob Ruark.” As I looked more closely at the little .275 rifle I noticed some engraving on the magazine box cover. The inscription read: “WDMB.” Could it stand for “Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell?” Surely not, I thought. I looked up at Bob, my eyes asking the obvious question. “That’s right, Haraka,” Bob said. “You’re holding ‘Karamoja’ Bell’s .275 Rigby. I visited Westley Richards recently to order a .318 rifle, which you’ve always sung the praises of, and Malcolm Lyell, the boss man there, showed me two rifles, which had arrived the previous day—they were from Bell’s estate. “The .275 Rigby you’re now holding and a double .450/400 by Jeffery. I bought both rifles on the spot for my godson, Mark.” Bob was referring to my son Mark, who was 4 years old at the time. I was speechless. Bell had been my idol ever since I’d become a professional hunter. And now, all I’d heard and read about him crowded into my mind. I was holding the little rifle that the legendary hunter had carried while penetrating the wilds of Karamoja in the northeastern regions of Uganda. While still in his 20s—15 years before I was born—Bell went there to hunt the great elephant bulls abundant in Karamoja, despite of the region’s population of wild and warring native tribes. Bell had moved about freely in the Karamoja area with a small safari, at a time when Swahili traders from the coast dared not set foot in the area with fewer than 300 guns. Several large, well-armed parties of traders had been completely wiped out through primitive intrigue—natives pretending to be trading, would in fact wait for a given signal, at which time each warrior plunged his spear into the nearest Swahili in order to steal all their trade goods.

Bell had earned the respect and the friendship, and finally total acceptance of the warlike Karamojang people. This was due partly to his fearlessness when dealing with a herd of bull elephants bearing down on him, relying on braining the one directly in front of him, but mostly from occasions when his safari was confronted by a group of belligerent warriors—tall, jet black, naked, and armed to the teeth carrying a shield, two 10-foot long razor-sharp spears, a circular knife on each wrist and wicked hooks attached to rings on the fingers—Bell would face them down, without showing the slightest emotion or fear. The situation never deteriorated to the point that Bell was ever forced to use his rifle. Bell was also supremely fit with tremendous stamina and endurance, qualities necessary for survival, and for which the Karamojang, as primitive people, greatly admired. But mainly they stood in awe and possibly dread of his small but deadly “fire stick,” which fired, without smoke, tiny shining bullets causing instant death to the largest bull elephant, and often laid low a group of bulls in a matter of seconds. These natives had never seen anything like this before. When the Swahilis tried to hunt elephants, they poured copious amounts of powder down the gullets of their muzzleloaders, then rammed down whatever projectiles were available, to produce huge clouds of smoke—but rarely dead elephants. The Karamojang affectionately named Bell “Longellynyung,” or red man. The big men who owned vast numbers of cattle even offered Bell their daughters as wives.

Bell’s Rifle Returns to Africa
If only this little rifle could speak, tell us where it had been, what it had experienced, how many of those grand old tuskers it had laid low. Its tales would be fascinating. I finally snapped out of my “Karamoja” trance, and we cleared the rifles, which was a mere formality in those far-off days. We then headed into Nairobi to check Bob into the New Stanley Hotel, after which we settled down with a couple of cold beers. We were both as excited as a pair of schoolboys about the Bell rifles and were surprised by the fact that the .275 was a takedown model. By flipping a catch the barrel and forward part of the fore-end unscrewed, but when in the locked position, it was totally rigid—a very neat arrangement. There were a couple of threaded holes on the side of the Mauser action where, presumably, Bell had fitted a scope at some time, perhaps as he grew older, in order to hunt stag back in his native Scotland. I asked about the elongated slot cut through the buttstock just above the monogram plate. Bob said that Malcolm Lyell had told him its purpose was for carrying the rifle. The butt end of a spear would be inserted through the hole then the spear placed over the shoulder with the rifle hanging down the carrier’s back. This sounded very strange to me, for it would mean that there would be about nine feet of spear protruding in front of the carrier as he walked through bush, and the rifle could be easily dislodged from the spear landing muzzle first on whatever surface lay beneath it. I never did hear nor imagine a plausible reason for that slot. Finally, Bob asked, “Haraka, when you first got involved in the safari business with Percival, back in late 1945, there must have been a few old-timers around who actually knew ‘Karamoja’ Bell.” “Yes,” I replied. “There were some old-timers who knew Bell—mainly from the ‘Ivory Rush’ days of the Lado Enclave.” I’d become a fan of “Karamoja” Bell after reading his two books, “Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter” and “Karamoja Safari,” and was always eager to hear about him from anyone who’d known him. “What did hunters think of him generally, and especially his use of smallbore rifles on elephants?” Bob asked. “Bell was admired for his ‘brass’ in venturing with a very small safari into Karamoja with it’s hostile pastoral tribes, whose main purpose in life was tending their precious cattle and killing each other and anyone else who might come along,” I told Bob. “By all accounts he was an outstanding hunter…fearless, with tremendous physical endurance, and it was generally agreed that he was a really superb marksman. He also had an amazing understanding of the bone structure of an elephant’s skull, and he was able to direct the small bullets from almost any angle to the brain hidden within that massive head. Stories of his prowess with a rifle were legion. “In those early days I don’t think anyone cared what rifle was used. Anything you could get your hands on with a supply of solid ammo was used. But with the passing of time and with the larger bores coming into regular use, controversy began about the use of small-bore rifles on elephant. However, I never met anyone who spoke badly of Bell.”


Back On Safari
Bob was scheduled to come back on safari later in the season, when we planned to hunt southern Tanganyika for sable, kudu and roan, and then move on to Ikoma for buffalo and leopard. He was anxious, as was I, to use the .275 Rigby as much as possible. The rifle was fitted with open sights, which featured a wide V rear sight with flip-up leaves, and a small-bead front sight. I realized we’d need to fit a scope to the rifle because Bob was not used to shooting with open sights, other than with big doubles at close range. I had a Lyman Alaskan 2.5X scope, but no scope mounts were available in Nairobi, so I took the rifle and scope to Robert Triebel, one of the famous Triebel brothers, who was employed as a gunsmith in Nairobi, and an absolute artist working with metal. He crafted a mount high enough to allow the operation of the unaltered Mauser bolt handle, but also built in an aperture, through which open sights could be used. The arrangement worked well and proved to ring out the best of the rifle’s inherent accuracy. The job took some time, but fortunately it was ready by the time Bob’s safari was due to start.

When Bob arrived for the safari we drove for three days via Lake Victoria to our campsite on the Ugalla River, some distance south of Tabora. Livingstone and Stanley had lived together here for a while after their famous meeting at Ugigi on Lake Tanganyika, and the compound they shared still stands today as a national monument. Called “Kazeh” in those days, Tabora was one of the main inland centers used by the Arab slavers. There are still hundreds of huge mango trees growing in the vicinity, serving as a living legacy to the slave trade. The mango fruit was carried up from the coast by the slave caravans as food, and when eaten the seeds were discarded, finally germinating and flourishing in the soft soil during the rains.
We found conditions favorable, the long grass having been burned off and a new growth of green shoots had shot up to attract a variety of game animals to the burned-off areas. But having had previous experience with the .275 (7x57 mm Mauser) cartridge, I was well-aware that the 173-grain Kynoch bullet was no speedster, exhibiting a fairly curved trajectory, and hence, it would be necessary to get fairly close to the quarry.

On the second day we spotted a small herd of sable antelope accompanied by a very respectable bull emerging from some long grass, which had escaped the fire. They were not aware of our presence, and there happened to be a large termite mound with trees growing on it between the sable and us. The wind was in our favor, so we hurriedly crept up to the mound, and remaining concealed, enjoyed a good view of the approaching herd feeding slowly along until they were no more than about 120 yards from us.
Bob had a good, solid rest for the rifle, so I said, “Take him as soon as he presents a broadside shot.” Finally the bull stood clear of the herd. With his shiny black body contrasting with his white belly and facial markings, and his long, sweeping scimitar-shaped horns arched majestically over his back, he looked magnificent. Bob fired and the sable reared high on his hind legs, then ran some 40 yards and stood. I knew the bull had been mortally wounded, and it collapsed before another shot was taken. That was the little .275’s first kill in Africa after so many years!

By the end of that safari the little Rigby rifle had accounted for a sable, a roan antelope, two zebras and a fair number of plains-game species required for camp meat. Seldom was a second shot required—the .275 did all that was expected of it, and more. Bob also used the little Rigby on a later safari to Karamoja—Bell’s old hunting grounds in Uganda. Bob and I felt like we were taking Bell’s Rigby .275 home, although we found the area very different from the Karamoja that Bell knew. Gone were the elephants, buffalo and rhino, and with the exception of lions and Jackson’s hartebeest, game was so scarce that the only animals we got to use it on were the hartebeest. We shot a number of them for lion bait and again the .275 proved more than adequate.

Move to Botswana
By the early 1960s East Africa was in a process of rapid political change, and the safari industry felt the pressure with many game areas becoming overcrowded. Hunting blocks were being booked months in advance for anticipated, but unconfirmed safaris. This meant planning and booking hunting areas for a genuine safari long before its arrival without any idea of what the situation would be in those areas when the safari arrived. New laws governing firearm security while on safari, during transit, and when in Nairobi also added to the overall pressure being felt. At about this time stories began to circulate among the East African hunting fraternity about vast herds of game in a little known British Protectorate by the name of Bechuanaland, which bordered South Africa. Ker, Downey & Selby (KDS) Safaris, the company I then worked for, became interested in the possibility of establishing a hunting safari operation there dependent on obtaining permission and the viability of such a venture. As I had expressed an interest in moving from East Africa, I was authorized to explore the possibility of setting up the operation. After discussing the move with my wife Miki, we decided to “give it a go,” fully realizing the risks involved in moving the family south to an uncertain future. After my initial investigations indicated that there was in fact a considerable amount of wildlife in the very large and sparsely populated country, which encompassed the Kalahari Desert in the south and the Okavango Delta (the largest inland delta in the world) in the north, KDS decided to go ahead with a plan to set up an operation in Bechuanaland.

Having obtained permission from the Bechuanaland government for a one-year trial period, we set up operations in the centrally located village of Maun, situated on the Thamalakane River along the southern reaches of the delta. KDS was allocated two locations for our hunting operations—one in the north, which encompassed a large area bordering the northeastern edge of the Okavango Delta, and one in the south, encompassing a large area of the Kalahari Desert for desert game. What we found exceeded our wildest expectations—a land that time had passed by. It was quiet “back water,” where nature had remained unchanged by the intrusion of the hustle and bustle of the 20th century. The vast savannas bordering the delta were teeming with huge herds of elephant, buffalo, numerous greater kudu, zebra, wildebeest and sable in excess of 100 animals, usually accompanied by truly magnificent males. There were many more species of plains game and lions everywhere, showing little fear of man, which in fact was the case with most of the animals.

Within the delta, gin-clear streams meandered between large palm fringed islands, home to large herds of red lechwe and buffalo. Elephants moved freely among the islands and pods of hippo inhabited the larger lagoons. In the vast reed beds the elusive, splayed-hoofed sitatunga were present in good numbers. The extensive Kalahari Desert scrub lands, which stretched for hundreds of miles, also provided a very encouraging picture. Large herds of gemsbok, eland, red hartebeest, wildebeest and springbok were constantly on the move, lions following the herds were also plentiful, and magnificent black-maned specimens were not uncommon. Leopards, too, were fairly abundant in the Kalahari.

In 1963, I moved the family to Maun, “lock, stock and barrel,” including all the firearms I’d acquired through the years, which also included the Bell .275. KDS Safaris commenced operations that year and, after a couple years of operation, we came to know our areas well. We established beautiful camps at attractive sites, cut tracks and made bush airfields, and by the mid-1960s, KDS was able to offer safaris equal in sophistication to those being conducted in East Africa. During this period the little Bell .275 saw very little use. But, when our son Mark entered his early teens it became the ideal rifle for him to use and he bagged a number of animals with it, including kudu, wildebeest, tsessebe, lechwe, zebra and impala. At one time, when I had a fairly large workforce in the bush cutting hunting tracks and airfields, meat was required for rations. There were good numbers of buffalo in the vicinity and out of curiosity I decided to take one with the Bell .275. Crawling up close to a large herd, I carefully selected a large, fat cow. At a distance of about 30 yards, I decided to do a “Karamoja Bell” and placed the long 173-grain Kynoch solid behind her ear, ranging forward into the brain. She dropped in her tracks.

Some time later staff rations were again needed, and I decided to use the little Rigby once again. But this time, I selected a large bull to see how the 173-grain Kynoch solid would perform. The bull stood broadside at about 60 yards and I aimed a little back on the shoulder to avoid having the bullet strike the large shoulder bone, possibly preventing it from penetrating into the heart cavity. At the shot the bull stumbled, but quickly regained himself and took off with the rest of the herd into thick mopani scrub engulfed in a dense cloud of dust. Following a wounded buffalo in thick bush with a scope-sighted .275 did not appeal to me, so I exchanged it for my Rigby .416 and took up the tracks of the retreating herd. Tracking carefully through the dense scrub, which was about shoulder high, we found little blood but did discover after several hundred yards where the wounded bull had separated from the herd. We now became even more cautious, because from experience, I knew that wounded buffalo will often run a short distance after separating from the herd. Then, if the bush is thick, he’ll lie down, and you’re on top of him before you realize he’s there. Fortunately, after another couple hundred yards of slow tracking, we could see a small clearing ahead and in the middle of this clearing lay the buffalo—stone dead. He’d collapsed at full gallop. Careful tracing of the bullet’s path established that the long, pencil-thin .275 Kynoch bullet had creased the heart, but had failed to penetrate its large internal chambers. The fact that this bull was able to gallop for nearly a half-mile with such a wound before collapsing is an indication of the vitality and tenaciousness of a buffalo.

The KDS Khwai concession area, located northwest of the Okavango Delta, had an extremely large population of elephant, and the company’s elephant quota was very generous in those days. During the 1970s, at a time when the price of ivory was increasing considerably, I’d agreed that any members of the company who wished to hunt an elephant at the end of the season, after all our “client safaris” had left the field, were welcome to do so.
My daughter Gail, then in her late teens, expressed the wish to hunt an elephant, which surprised me somewhat. I knew Gail had a very deep-rooted respect for elephants, having witnessed some noisy demonstrations when she had accompanied me while I was doing some photography. She was very familiar with the handling of firearms, though, and had bagged a number of plains game without incident. I agreed that she could hunt an elephant with the proviso that she accompany me on the hunt all the way, and that she shoot the elephant herself. I would assist only if it were absolutely necessary. To this she agreed, and again, I was somewhat surprised, knowing her feelings about pachyderms. With no caliber restrictions on the use of small-bores in those early days, I figured the little Rigby .275 would be the ideal rifle for her to use.

When all the safaris had been wrapped up, it was time for Gail’s hunt. We still had a couple of weeks before the season closed, and I decided to try our luck in the Mababe Depression where some early rains had filled some backcountry waterholes. We commenced the hunt and looked over several breeding herds accompanied by young bulls, the odd one carrying ivory, which appeared quite nice, but with thin tusks and long nerves they would not meet our weight expectations. We also encountered our share of one-tuskers and broken-tuskers, not to mention numerous groups of young bachelor bulls. Finally, I decided we should have a look at a distant water hole about a two-hour drive from camp. It had rained during the night and as we approached the water hole we came upon the tracks of a large bull elephant, which had crossed the road not long before our arrival. Leaving the car under a tree we shouldered our rifles and, with a water bag carried by one of the trackers, we hurried off in pursuit.

Tracking was ridiculously easy due to the rain the previous night, and after some two miles of tracking through thick mopani woodland, we spotted the bull ahead in the middle of an open plain feeding on small shrubs. It was moving slowly toward a thick mopani forest on the far side of the plain. The binocular showed both tusks to be intact and evenly matched. I judged the tusks to scale about 50 pounds apiece. We now deviated with the wind in our favor to get ahead of the bull and be in a position to intercept the elephant before it reached the heavy bush on the far side of the plain. Having accomplished this maneuver we strode toward the bull. When we were some 200 yards from him, Gail said in a quavering voice, “This is close enough, dad!” I said, “No we must get a lot closer,” and continued to approach the bull. Gail’s protests became more urgent as we got nearer, and when we were within about 80 yards, I realized I would not get her any closer unless I picked her up and carried her. There was a nearby tree, which provided a decent rest, and I said, “OK take him from here.” I explained again where to aim for the heart as she sighted through the scope. Gail fired and by the bull’s reaction I felt she had got it right, so I did not fire. There was sufficient open country between it and the bush for me to take a hand if it did not collapse. The bull ran for about 40 yards then stood, swayed and collapsed.

Gail was elated with her prize, and I congratulated her on a fine shot and having gone through with it. At the same time I could not help feeling a sense of nostalgia as this was the first elephant the little Rigby had laid low since it was used by “Karamoja” Bell so many years before. In retrospect Gail’s bull will almost certainly be the last elephant the little rifle will account for as in most, if not all African countries, calibers of .375 or larger are mandatory for the hunting of elephant.

Mark eventually decided to dispose of the Rigby .275 through Holland & Holland of London, and we lost all trace of it for nearly 20 years until quite recently when someone phoned Joe Cooganto say that he currently owned the rifle and wished to sell it. Mike Evans now owns “Karamoja” Bell’s Rigby .275, and he brought it back to Botswana to use on safari in 2009. How wonderful to think that this unique little rifle returned to Africa yet again, and that its voice echoed through the African bush once more

It's the cat's pajamas!

I have some Victor mouse traps but what is a 7X57 mouser?

I've always wanted 7x57, but haven't met the right one yet. I hunt with a guy who's been using a FN Commercial Mauser in 7x57 since 1965 when it was lent to him by his best friend. They are still best friends and hunt together 30 or so days a year.

Here you go. DF

Handloader Magazine Vol 12 - No 2, Mar/April 1977

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl66partial.pdf

Many of you may remember the column Harvey Donaldson wrote for the Handloader magazine. I earmarked a "Yours Truly" letter dated October 31, 1970 and put a copy in my 7X57 file folder. Several years ago I tested Donaldson's progressive bullet weight loads with a single powder measure setting.

Donaldson used Hornady bullets for his progressive loading and starting with 100gr he determined 45grs IMR3031 gave good accuracy and normal pressure. He locked the powder measure setting and used it to throw charges for heavier bullets.

46grs IMR4895 - 120gr bullet
45grs IMR4064 - 139gr bullet
48grs IMR4320 - 154gr bullet
47grs IMR4350 - 175gr bullet

I set my Lyman 55 powder measure at 45grs of 3031 and locked it to throw the different IMR powders.

47grs IMR4895 - 120gr bullet
45grs IMR4064 - 139gr bullet
48grs IMR4320 - 154gr bullet
45grs IMR4350 - 175gr bullet

Charges varied from Donaldson's.

I did not have all the .284 bullets on hand so I called an amigo for some help and he wanted to know..what the heck I was doing. When I explained it to him he wanted to participate so he came over with empty R-P cases and his pre-64 M70 with a 22" McGowen barrel. We dropped 2grs of powder and worked up to Donaldson's loads, loading 4 cases for each bullet weight.
Chrono for each load:

M77 tang safety 22" bbl. 1:8 3/4 twist
100gr highest fps 3087
120gr highest fps 3017
139gr highest fps 2765
154gr highest fps 2643
175gr highest fps 2622 (Donaldson's 47gr load was too hot)

M70 McGowen 22" bbl. 1:9 twist
100gr highest fps 3100
120gr highest fps 3036
139gr highest fps 2731
154gr highest fps 2630
175gr highest fps 2597 (Donaldson's 47gr load was OK in this rifle)

Elkhunternm,

Last year I acquired a Sako Finnbear L61 in 270. It has a nice wood stock and shoots 150 partitions into little tiny groups. It certainly made me rather happy.

In the works for this year is a 7X57 and a 6.5X55 Swede. I've got a 7X57 barrel on the way and a Whitworth action to go with it. Rifle should be completed in a few months. I have no idea what route I'm going to go concerning a Swede but there will be one in my gun cabinet sometime this year.





Shod

I have another one in the works for this year also. A tricked out G33/40 action and 22" swamp contour barrel with integral quarter rib, front sight and sling swivel stud.

I'm not sure if it'll finish this year. I'm still waiting on the barrel and after that I have to get in line at James Anderson's shop.

What did you do to the action, Terry?

I think we should adopt the 6mm Remington necked up to 7mm.

Well Parson, I see you're getting ready for the Zombie Pig Apocalypse. Maybe Hornady will turn out some green-tipped GMXs for you.

The article brings back memories of velocities we saw with MRP and H205. MRP was the successor to Norma 205 and all three powders followed the theme of dense ,double based propellants that aded velocity as long as you added powder until something gave. The velocities would give you pause and we saw it other cartridges besides Hall's 7x57, but the 30/06 ,338,and 375 H&H as well. A couple of blown primers as we got to top end convinced us that chasing larger case velocities with miracle powders in small cases was not such a hot idea.

MRP was a darling of some gun writers of the day, among them Bob Hagel and John Wooters,who noted the velocity gains. The stuff became a cult powder, like H205. Eventually MRP became scarce. Wooters attended an SCI time here in New England,and discovered my buddy had a stash. They cut a deal and my pal parted with two pounds for him.

H205 eventually was pulled from the market and Hodgdon said it was due to lot to lot variations.My buddies had carefully stashed hordes.

Couple the miracle powders with throats as long as the Holland tunnel,and barrels with over sized groove diameters and no telling where you would end up. Hall's barrel is .2852 through the grooves instead of the standard .284. These two characteristics in tandem are like effectively adding powder capacity and using a slightly larger case, leading to the results Hall observed.

We deliberately built cut rifle barrels asking that groove diameter be cut 1 to 2 though oversized in calibers 270,7mm,30,and 375 to see the effect. You didn't have to ask with some pre 64 M70 tubes...many of them came that way and I had a 375 H&H barrel that measured a .378+ through the grooves.

One 7 Rem Mag barrel with long throat and .285 groove diameter swallowed loads that would give anyone pause if he compared them to manual loads.

Bottom line was it seemed that a groove diameter a thou over would show these kind of results but once you got above 30 caliber it took an increase of 2-3 thou before the rifle started digesting heavier loads.

All this goofing around over a solid decade shed a lot of light into why some barrels display more, or less velocity than some others. Also, that it's far easier to simply go buy a bigger case if you want more velocity.This is how I eventually started to head and it works almost every time I try it.

Nevertheless,long throats and free bore do allow more powder consumption than something with standard throats. Weatherby has built a company around the principle.

I would not waste a lot of time chasing Hall's velocities. It can get hair raising after awhile and isn't worth it.

Surface ground, custom bases, new bolt handle. Phase 2 will include the bottom metal and safety. For the bottom metal I'm going to have the original triggerguard milled off and a EURO style shotgun (single trigger) triggerguard installed. I'm also going with a old school floorplate release lever. For the safety I'm going with a BRNO ZG-47 unit I've had stashed away for some time now.

It sounds a little funky but I think the end product will be nice.

Terry

One of the early Norma 205, 7x57 advocates was Ike Ellis, a gun dealer and very good stockmaker from Idaho Falls. Among other animals, he killd a grizzly with, as I recall, a 140 Partition at around 3100 fps from a 22" barrel.

I got to know Ike pretty well in his later years, partly through buying a very nice Frank Pachmayr 1903 Springfield custom rifle from him. He told me he hadn't pushed handloads like that for decades--and was a happier many because of it!

John after watching a pal blow a primer in the 06 with a dose of H205, it was the beginning of the "end" for me, too!

Astonishingly, through all this play, I only blew two primers...one in the 338 with H205,and another in the 280. In both cases i switched bullets without backing off first...another story.

The velocity readings for that 30/06 were above what we'd call "normal". He got away with it for awhile.

I think all this is still good stuff to know. But it made me cautious and conservative,too!


Did Ike Ellis know Hagel?

Ruark and Selby using see-thru mounts!?!

I can almost hear the cheering in Pennsylvania.

Nice Terry, pics when you get there...

Will do.

A lot of interesting info, guys.

DF, thanks for the fascinating story!

I'm definitely more of a user than a collector but one rifle on my bucket list that I'd be happy to keep in the safe forever showed up last summer in the Boise Cabelas gun library. I was up there with some friends and after dropping the girls off at the mall my buddy and I headed in to see what's what.

Normally, I'm quite unimpressed with Cabelas selection and prices but when I saw her sitting there behind glass, pulled it out and saw 7x57 Mauser scrolled on the barrel I knew I was lost...(and also that serendipidity was, indeed, a thing)!

For now she has the Skinner peep on which I really like and will work great in the thick stuff I've been hunting the last few years.

Unfortunately, I took up bow hunting and Idaho's weird draw/open hunts near me basically mean I have to choose between rifle or bow for deer each year. Sucks. But whether I get a draw or not, like I said, this one stays.

There is one more 757 dream I'd like to fulfill some day if I ever have the spare cash and that's a Merkel K3 Jagdstutzen. Piece of functioning art! Gdub's is absolutley beautiful even if it is chambering in the 'wrong' Seven.....

Previous Post Deleted

Subject for a different thread.

Jerry

I have had a 7mm rifle in the gun cabinet almost from the first one I bought. Have built a couple and still have one but have another in the works with a 1916 Erfurt small ring that I will whittle out a blind mag stock for it. Should be a nice light hill rifle. Going to run the 130/140gn bullet where my other one is set up for the 160gn weight and shoots it very nicely indeed.

I remember that article about Dennis Hall's Ruger M77. I figured that maybe I ought to get me one, which I did. I guess the chamber and barrel dimensions were closer to normal as I never could get close to the velocities he got.
I did play with H205 a bit in the 30-06 though and liked it. Naturally, I find a powder I like and they drop it. Not too sure I go with Hodgdens claim of inconsistent lots though. I've always had the thought in the back of my mind that some people might have confused H205 with Norma's N205 which could be a problem. Maybe Hodgkin was right but it's what I think. Never did get to try H205 in a 7x57. Might have been interesting.
Paul B.

That and a Bombay Bowler and I'd be set!!

I always thought it was the perennial darling already. I've seen the .222 mentioned a bit lately and of course Ingwe has one so the lemmings should be lining up in the starting blocks. Seriously though it is such a fine old round it would be cool to see all those old sakos and 700 V's pulled out of the back of the the safes.

If the 7x57 is the "insurgent" cartridge for 2016, what are your thoughts out there:
the various bolt actions available or a Ruger 1A?

Winchester M 70 Featherweight.

I have both. Take your pick.

Don't forget copious quantities of Tanqueray, for Zombie Pig bites, of course.

I too have both. A win win situation.
Paul B.

Really enjoyed reading the article DF....

Thanks!!

Way back around 1990 or so, give or take a few years, I saw an ad from Grice Gun Shop for a 7X57 Winchester Lightweight. They claimed the rifle was made for the European market, as it had iron sights on it. Anyway, I bought one, and used it for several years on whitetails. I haven't fired that rifle in probably 10 years. I didn't want to hurt the wood stock by hauling it in and out of deer stands, so I bought a fiberglass stock and put on it. Reading these posts makes me want to dig it out of the safe and shoot it again. Luckily I was able to lay in a supply of brass when it was plentiful.

Will Bombay work? It sort of goes with the hat.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Ingwe's fav---

222 Magnum?

Elkhunternm (Ken) will know.


Jerry

IIRC, it's Shrap that likes the .222 Mag

Poobah is a .223AI man.

DF

London Dry is okay, but not Sapphire. That draws 'em like flies to honey. Sunlight filtered through the green Tanqueray bottle will cause the Zombie Pigs (ALWAYS capitalized) to melt into little puddles of bacon grease, however. Good to have that extra arrow in your quiver.

Could be, maybe so....

they look alike on the 'fire'



Jerry

Neither one endowed with an over abundance of pretty...

Not referring to the rounds...

DF

I'll make a note of it.

By the way, for the guys wondering about Ingwe's move to small caliber rifles, he has a .223AI AND a .222. I believe it's a Ruger No. 1 that Derrick found for him. I also believe he may be in Texas slaying varmints with them as we speak.

He's spending an awful lot of time down there with them Texicans...

DF

Maybe no one else will have him.

I'm beginning to wish I was someplace else myself. Got 34" of snow for my birthday that gave way to days upon days of high winds. Finally, yesterday we got a couple inches of soft tracking snow, but when I loaded up to go look for canine predators, the old Exploder wouldn't crank. I was pretty disgusted at first, but shortly thereafter the sleet started and turned the roads into a skating rink. Somebody's obviously looking out for me, but I hope He lets me out for some fun pretty soon as cabin fever is setting in pretty bad.

The new season of Vikings starts Thursday, one bright spot.

Neither; go custom Mauser and thank me later.

Brno Model 21/22 Full or Half stock.
Small Ring Mausers with mag rails designed for the x57 cartridge

All the rest are cheap imitations

Oh, yeh we heard all about them Brno's and their fabulous ballistics from Ray Atkinson.

I've had mine since 2004, a M.98 sporter which has just about retired my 1981 WRA M70 Featherweight.

MAUSER !

What fabulous ballistics, they are rifles not lasers.

i have a riedl falling block carbine in 7x57. about the time i got that i got a box of knoch 173 full metal jacket bullets, marked for "dangerous game, and a number of boxes of 7x57 sold by montgomery wards. I have often debated about using the projectiles or the wards ammo.

1910 and 1936 Mexican M98's make great donors for the 7X57.

I like the .257 Roberts necked up to 7mm better!

22 lr, 7x57, 338 Win mag all bases covered...oh yeah add in a 12ga

But that wouldn't be much fun for a gun junkie like me.

Well that's the first step admitting I have a problem

Hard to beat a nice 1A.

Will give you that!

But as the gents said above, for the 7x57, a SR Mauser. They feed the 57 case like a dream and the action is always short and long enough...:)

I was being facetious. Ray Atkinson told us he could get 7x57 AI ballistics out of his Brno's and beat the 7mm Rem Mag.

Great fan...if someone would make brass I'd order a barrel tomorrow.

Remember what JOC wrote...an old timer told him if you (we) had a 22lr, a 12 ga, and a 3006 we'd do just fine.

Check Nosler and Grafs; it's in stock, all you want.

I had not seen that one, he must shoot different 7x57's than I have.

In point of fact my last 7x57 model 21 got 2700 fps out of 50 grains of ar2209 and 150 grain corelokts, up it to 51 grains of '09 and I couldn't hold the little bugger in my left hand.

Shocked the living crap out of a couple of 7mm rem shooters locally, it didn't up the speed much but by Christ it made the rifle lively.

Anyone that thinks they are going to jet-pack a 21 stock is in for one heck of an experience.

I never understood hot rodding a 7x57 I thought it's best attribute was being mild yet effective as is.

I'm happier with a .280 or a 7mm-08. And I love to read Corbett and Bell but I don't feel any need to gun the exact same cartridge. I used to get caught up in that sort of thing but as I get older I'm about what I like andnostalgia isn't much of a factor.

It is hardly nostalgic for me.

The 98 mauser is my first choice for a hunting action for all conditions. The 57mm case is native to that action.

You can make other cases work great and talented smiths do stuff others can't. None the less, the design favors the 57 case.

Same here. With it's slight tapper it was designed to feed. Throw it in a magazine box that was purpose built for that cartridge and it's amazing. Put that in an action designed specifically for that case and becomes a total package and a peach of a rifle

Beauty work on that Mex, Terry

Mousers and Mausers are both timeless:


My Mouser:








My Mauser:











... and it's even a 7x57!

FC

I am a fan and have been for a bit. My Swede.





Youngest son is too. His Walther Mauser.

To each his own.

I never understood why the 7x57 should languish in SAAMI pressure limits because of the weakness of the Mauser Models 1892, '93 and '95. I don't consider exceeding those limits "hot rodding", rather using it's potential.

atkinsonhunting 4/16/09

I have been a avid fan of the 7x57 for many years. I always have one around the house and I have hunted extensively with that caliber, its a nostalgia thing I suspect..

All my 7x57 have been Brno M-21 or 22s or custom rifles that I have built...I always have a 30-06 length box (magazine) and I always cut a long throat that will allow for the bullet to be seated out..I throat them to where I can seat a 160 Nosler or perhaps a 175 gr. Nosler .284 depth into the case, depending on the particular rifle..In effect I have a 7x57 Improved if I use H414 powder..I load H414 considerably over any book max so I won't give the load..

BTW, the Brno M-21 and 22 come with such a magazine and chamber. That is why I started doing my rifles like this..

With the above procedure I can get an easy 2600 FPS with the 175 gr. Nosler, and 2916 FPS with the 160 gr. Nosler..

I will add that one of my favorite deer, antelope bullets in the 7x57 is the 130 gr. Speer as it performs flawlessly on such game. It has to take quit a jump to the rifleing but todate it has shot well in every 7x57 I have owned, so perhaps that old wives tale of short bullets making a jump is just that, an old wives tale..Some shoot and some don't just like everything else in the world of gundome, it just depends on the rifle in question.

I have tried this with several calibers/cases, but found that this type of improvement only wo

atkinsonhunting - 8/19/10

Long throats is a misconception..The most accurate 7x57s I have ever shot are the Mod. 21 and 22 Brnos and they have an extremely long throat in that I can seat a 175 gr. Nosler or Hornady half way to the cannalure and get great MOA accuracy, then turn around and shoot the 130 gr. Speer ( a favorite deer bullet of mine ) with the same accuracy..and I am convienced, based on the large number of Brno 21s and 22s I have had over the years, that all the brnos will do just that. I have never seen a Brno M-21 or 22 that would not shoot great groups.

As a result of my many years of hunting and building rifles I have adopted the Brno specs in all my custom 7x57s using long boxes and very long throats, and accuracy has been great..

I suspect the lack of accuracy in most 7x57 is bad barrels and the throat and the jump to the lands is bad press without substance, thats been repeated way too many times..I use Lothar Walthar barrels in all my custom rifles and they all shoot well.

My using loads are huge doses of H-414 with any bullet and I load way over max with that long throat and magazine as the long throat is, in effect, the same as a 7x57 Imp..I get 3200 FPS with the 130 gr. and 2916 FPS with a 160 gr. Nosler and 2700 with a 175 with all of the guns set up like this. These are 10 round chronographed with the high and low taken out for the average..pressures are mild in that I get 14 to 15 loadings with them.

I won't list the powder charge as I would be concerned that someone would use it in a standard chamber or in a Mod 95 or 96 Mauser for instance, but its considerably over book max for a 7x57...

While there is no arguing that point there is nothing better than making a very good cartridge better. If the 7x57 had been loaded to it's full potential, there would have been no need for the 7-08. Based on one experiment there probably would have been no need for the .280 Remington as well.
Admittedly, the only reason would be to increase the range for reliable hit at longer range.
The 140 gr. factory ammo is advertised at 2600 FPS. My pet load for that weight bullet is 2800 FPS which is safe even at the 100+ degrees here in our summers. Matter of fact we're forecast to be about 90 today.
Paul B.

Must have been using much better Brno model 21's in 7x57 than I have.

[quote=Zs84]I never understood hot rodding a 7x57 I thought it's best attribute was being mild yet effective as is. [/quote

This ^^^^

As I have stated elsewhere I always chuckle when one claims that " with proper loads the 7x57 can approach the 270 ballistically". Well if that's what you are looking for I can think of a lot easier way to get there.

It's very possible my favorite rifle is a sporterized Mod.98 which had a new FN 7x57 barrel installed. Got this one from a friend in 2004 who passed away later that year. I told him I would get an elk with it, and I did in 2005. I have bagged deer with it also and know he smiled at each shot.
The rifle, the cartridge, the result:



What's not to love?

Joe...best reason I have ever heard for hunting.

I concur factory stuff and SAAMI limits are mild and not utilizing full potential, it was those figures out of that Brno that had me going

A great velocity and bullet weight for the old rifle. That's pig and whitetail medicine in southern palmettos for sure.

Dang it Ed, every time you post that pic I have to go to confession!!

Yeah, that is a stunning rifle!

Joe - that's a great story and I'm glad for ya.

The rifle is also a LOOKER !!

That buck is a great 6 PT. I'm not being critical. In Ark. we have a 3 pt on one side MINIMUM. I have killed a couple of BIG 6s, but on a 'point' count they were BARELY legal.

Great Pic - thnx for sharing.

Jerry

Yeah, I hunted Ark. when that rule came into effect. I and several others saw a fork horn several times for a couple of years that was about like the one pictured. Non of us could put eyegards on that rascal.

I like the idea of getting there and then beyond with a 175 grain Nosler Partition hammer.

It seems to me that the 7x57 really needs to be in a traditional package...

That is a very handsome little rifle. A shame that the bolt handle is on the wrong side.

Good for you!

Utah, that is some really fine eye candy! Very high lust factor but, for some reason, the crank is on the wrong side. More details.

Yeah, I know what ya mean...even on the ground!



Seriously, that's why I've gone to 4-12 scopes. These guys that don't hunt in 'point restricted' areas don't appreciate that dilemma.

Jerry

I agree . In fact I think you could add the .250 savage, 8x57 and 9.3x62 to that list as well.

My next rifle is going to be a 7x64.

I must not be self respecting. The only cartridge that I would keep on either of your lists is the .30-06.

Yup, and like EdM's rifle, it's too bad they couldn't find a decent piece of wood for the stock.😛

Oh boy, I just bumped into a nib Ruger #1 in 7 mouser. Its gonna be a sleepless night......................

Great to see some folks who think the old classic calibers aren't dead. The 275 Rigby, AKA 7x57 is my all time favorite. Have a bunch of them in drillings & combo guns and a couple bolt rifles as well. One of the all time great writers, Jack Oconnor, loved the 7 Mauser also.
Karamojo Bell killed a bunch of elephants with that caliber in a 98 Mauser. Some of them while standing on the shoulders of his gun bearer in tall grass. That guy must have had cajones the size of grapefruit.:). I did a piece on classic hunting calibers on my web page, and have had a lot of folks tell me they agreed. When I retired from gunsmithing a few years ago, I was still chambering custom rifles for 8x57JS. Another highly efficient big game cartridge.
That a nice looking "stutzen" in the OP. Always had a soft spot for full stock rifles. My wife's a lefty and would love that one.

Where is it?

I could be in Loony land soon.


Jerry

I think I've gone metric looney, sold all of the others. Now I have nothing newer than 100 years old and metric. CZ500FS 6.5x55, Steyr in 6.5X57, 44 BCD 98K in 8X57, a CZ550 in 9.3X62, and I just bought a Sauer 101 select in 7X64.. Thinking I have most of it covered..

I'm probably a generation before many of the ones who post here on the Gunwriter section of this forum. The truth is I have great respect for the ways of the older generation and I see a lot of the good slipping away in each new and upcoming generation. For this reason I decided to build a 7X57 and years from now whether hunting is allowed or not I will in honor of all the old-timers shoot some venison every now and then and enjoy the fruitage of my kill over a nice fire. Not only will I make honorary kills but I'll do it with an old cup and core bullets.



Shod

Shod -

I respect what you said.

By the same token the 270 Win, born 1925 ain't the youngster amongst cartridges. Being born here in the USA also deserves its rightful homage.

IMHO - there are several cartridges that have earned their place in our minds, hearts, and admiration.

Now back to our regular program.

Jerry

Jwall,

I appreciate the point you make. I can see a need to aquire a number of older rifles including a 270. My oldest rifle as of now would be an 1980 L61 Sako Finnbear in 270.

I just looked up the year of my Whitworth action and its 1984.

In my opinion I'm going to need something more along the lines of 1960. After around 1970 I feel it all started going to hell in a handbasket. I was only 2 years old in 1970. Though I didn't get to see the good old days I have been fortunate enouph to see the product of the good old days in the Men I grew up around and a few that are still hanging in there



Shod

Kind of fond of the 7X57 mouser myself.

This is mean-spirited...talking behind my back and all.


Then equating me with Shrap and his antiquated, underpowered deuce mag!

Worse yet, implying that we look alike!


Its easy to tell the difference...I am the mature,handsome one.




And heres another real 7x57 Mauser to go along with the many already posted...

Is that the rifle you used on the infamous zebra?

Do you really expect us to believe that someone of your "vintage" can see well enough to use irons?

Nice gun. Fine looking goat too!

It is.


And for frame of reference those two critters were the last I shot with open sights.

Continued to use aperture sights for a couple more years but eventually had to scope everything.

Ingwe is infamous. The zebra is merely notable.

Good point.

Just curious: Do you remember your age at the time? At 56 I'm afraid my iron sight days are long gone.

Yeah, that was on my 1999 Safari with JB and his wife. I was 47.


( FWIW Ive worn coke bottle glasses since I was 2 years old, so you may have more time...)

Salute'


Glad you made it home from the Messican Annex!


Jerry

Lots of nice Mausers from that era on GB between $600 and $1000. I've got all I need (for now,...I think), so have at 'em.

The FN Deluxes can often be found with good receiver sights, if irons are your bag. Most don't have open rear sights.

And since this is a thread about the 7x57 I'm damn glad thats what I had in my hands when I shot the zebra.

He was at about 140 yards, a tad more than quartering away, so I thought I'd slip a 175 gr. NPT behind his ribs, rake his vitals and be good.

He WAS indeed more than quartering away, and the shot hit his left hip, broke it, and went ahead to angle forward, rake his vitals and kill him.....roughly five feet of penetration .



The infamous part came when tracking him. My PH, Myself, and Gideon the tracker went after him, no small pool of experience there.....but we ALL missed the zebra taking a corner.
He only went about 200 yards, but it took us a couple hours to find him....and the corner we missed.

Pretty good penetration from that old cartridge! Do you remember the velocity?

Nope. Never clocked it out of that gun....it was going so fast I couldn't even see it though!

Unless I start shooting cattle, I expect they'd over-penetrate on pigs.

Let's see... 1999, 47..,

Good grief, I may actually be older than ingwe! Not good.


Every morning I check the obituaries. If I ever see my name, I'm going to lie down.

See....I'm not as old as you reprobates make me out to be! Theres lots of guys on the 'fire older than me.

But I do remember churning butter as a child, and waiting for the car radio to "warm up" before you could get any tunes......

I walked in the house this afternoon and the smell of pork cooking in the crock pots is everywhere. We're in the 40 days of Lent right now, but Sundays are always feast days, so it ain't all that bad.

Mrs. Rev marinated the backstraps from a little sow I shot last week, as well as one of the hams from a young boar I shot a couple of weeks before that, in mojo sauce (overnight), then put them in the crock pots with fresh mojo sauce, fresh sliced onions, and a little bit of black pepper. They'll cook until they completely fall apart, then she'll shred them a little more and we'll let them soak in their own juice overnight. Tomorrow we'll reheat and dip it all over yellow rice. As I said, it ain't all that bad!

Why do I bring this up? Because both pigs were taken with Ingwe's old "Heavy Rifle" - the Ingwe Special.

Which, of course, was the 7x51, or as we called it the "7mm super" for many years before Remington hijacked it. Great cartridge though, by any name!

Courtesy heads up. I just listed a nice older 7x57 Mark X in the classifieds.

The 7x57 has been my cartridge of the year at least since 1981 or 1982.

This old cartridge needs its own forum. Just about every thread runs 15 or more pages.

Rev, As you are our leader for this day I've got a question . My dad's old (1951) Rem. 721 .270 W. has a .2785 groove. I have a .280 Pacific brand push through die that sizes .284 120gr Horn. HP's to .2795. Does this count? BTW when I was on Maui for the last 2 weeks my SIL (US Postal Service) gave my 2 new Bombay Bowlers, 1 plastic, 1 fiber official ones but bright white! I loaded some ammo with those bullets and a min. load of 4895 and will shoot in the AM. The only bullets that shoot fairly well in that gun are hot loaded 150 NPT with I-4064 so far. "May the Lord keep ......"-Thanks-Muddy

You won't get an argument from me. Let's get-R-done.
Paul B.

Muddy, I think it'll count...as a good ol' .270!

How was the shooting today?

I have some boxes of those 120 grain blue NBTs coming. I'm going to load a few up and see if they're too tough for pigs. I'm seeing pics of dead elk they've taken, so they just might be.

Oh oh, the mouser thread is dead?

Blasphemy!

The Campfire Cartridge of 2016?

The 6.8 x 57, obviously









in fairness, this one is the last 7x57 I owned. It was intriguing enough, that I almost kept it despite the bolt handle being on the wrong side

C'mon boys, lets kick it up a notch, the thread is waning.

Ok I'll ask this. Would JOC have been a bigger proponent of the 7 Mouser if the .270 Win wouldn't have come along? Did JOC endear himself to the .270Win. on his own or was he prompted by the "industry" or maybe even his editor?

Ok, let's mull this around for a couple more pages.

OK, I'll help revive the thread by telling you all I saw the ultimate, consummate 7x57 Mauser. It was absolutely perfect in form and function, and kept in a safe at an undisclosed location by our own EdM here on the 'fire....

I've got one picked out too. Just need to make the phone call. I see sleepless nights in the near term.

Hey Ingwe, ask him to post a pic. I have seen a couple in his threads.

Always like pics of 7x57s. Still kicking myself for not buying an Oberndorf Model M in 7x57 about 15 years ago. Seller and I just could not agree on price.
Paul B.

Whoop, I certainly can't know JOC's mind but I have a feeling that it was a combination of BOTH.

He spoke his mind whether anyone agreed with him or not. He saw the 270 perform over yrs + on multitudes of game. At the same time he GOT PAID for writing, so...

We also know that Jack liked 'other' cartridges as well because he wrote praise of them. My ? is, how many Win 70, 270s did he sell? No one knows but obviously he was involved.


Jerry

Yes I suppose when JOC started to get name recognition - the 60's, the .270 Win was around for some 35 years - although WWII would have slowed down interest and sales. So maybe all JOC did was to help with the interest in the .270 WCF.
I wonder if the .308 put a damper on things in 1952 when it came out. Some of this is just idle conjecture along with a full pot of coffee.

whoop -

I graduated H S in 1967. Around here in the 60s I only knew of people mainly using 3 guns for deer hunting.

12 ga, 30-30s, & 06s. A lot has changed for a number of reasons AS I'm sure you know.

My opinion - only- I think the 308 didn't start showing its influence till later 60s into the 70s. I reserve the right to be wrong. The 06 had such an entrenched head start, I think it took a while.

Also in the 60s we had other NEW rounds introduced. 7mm RM - '62, 264 WM '59, etc. so the 308 had new competition as well.

From my memory (cobwebbed-rusty) I remember the 264, 7 RM, and even 300 WM receiving a lot of attention. I don't remember the 308 getting as much. (just because I don't remember doesn't mean anything)


It seems to me that the 308 has become MORE popular in the last 20 yrs than it was in the 60s. could be wrong??


This is just my impression, I wasn't aware of the 7mm Mauser's popularity till I joined the 'fire in 2010.

As you say, idle gun gack. Interesting to some, not to others.


Jerry

The M-14 rifle went into service with the military in the late 1950's. That gave the 308 Winchester a big jump start toward wide acceptance.

Everybody became aware of the cartridge quickly and almost all the rifle manufacturers started chambering rifles in 308 right away.

Some models were almost created for the cartridge, such as the Remington M-600.

And Savage sold a lot of M-99's in 308 Winchester.

With the stamp of approval of the US Marines, as well as the other branches, I would say that the 308 Win. was born popular, and its popularity has stayed pretty steady to this day.

nifty -

I'd not argue with you. All I can say if the 308 had that kind of popularity 'AROUND' here I didn't see or hear it.
I remember that it was a long time before I ever saw someone hunting a 308.

? Different Place/Area ? maybe? The first deer hunter that I 'know of' hunting a 308 was in 1974.


Jerry





So VERY Nice **** I'd have a hard time letting that one leave even being manufactured wrong!


Jerry

The list of military cartridges that become popular for hunting isn't that long, but commercial rifle versions have boosted their presence. With new powders and bullet designs, they have become even more adaptable.
Because of that, it would be easy to build a life long, worldwide battery just from military based cartridges.
Probably something Mule Deer could tackle?

Jerry,

I agree with you that different areas certainly show different acceptance of rifles and chamberings.

My experience was in Northern California. I worked part-time in a gun shop in the late '60s.
308 Winchesters were selling well at the time, and my brother and I were both using 308's as our first deer rifles. So my observation may be a bit biased.

Shortly thereafter, I also did appreciate the 7.62x51 mm version of the 308 Winchester cartridge that the Marine Corps provided to me in the form of an M-14 rifle. Being an experienced shooter, I found it rather easy to qualify as Expert with that rifle.

To say I was less impressed with the M-16 and its puny cartridge is an understatement. I still qualified Expert, but with definitely more effort.

"You can tell it's Mattel. It's swell!"
(advertising jingle from the 1960's for Mattel Toys).

Humorously, It wasn't long before I obtained a Springfield 30-06 and a 300 Sav. M-99, and the 308 went down the road, and I haven't felt the need for a 308 Win since. But I still like the cartridge and its offspring.

nifty -

We agree. THE reason I know about 1974 is that I moved to NW Ark and met a friend who had the 1st 308 that I'd seen anyone hunting.

We still are friends and hunt together. The 308 ? ? don't know where it wound up. He's a 270er now. <G>


Jerry

Honestly -- seriously-- no joking.

I'm 67 yo and have been around guns/rifles since I was a kid. I've never known anyone WITH or WHO OWNED a 7X57.

No dig-not critical-just true.

Jerry

Edit to Add: I've been a member of 2 large Deer Leases with many members. NONE owned/used 7X57

I've have and have had friends in many locals (areas) and NONE owned/used 7X57.

I am NOT trying to put it down at all. I'd choose the 7X57 over many cartridges available today. I actually seriously considered getting a 7-08 NULA (same/same performance)

I have 3 7 X 57's in the fold right now. First one is a '98 sporting rifle. I bought this one because it matches up with a couple of JP Sauer sporters I have in 9 X 57 and 8 x 57...

Then there is the 1A Ruger. I carried this for 12 yrs, It killed about 18 whitetails and lord knows how many pests. It was supposed to be a nice mild rifle for mama and I even loaded it as such....140 Game Kings @ 2500. Every time she sat it down I picked it up and killed something so eventually she gave up. Now it sees safe duty....I should move it along.

Last one is a 700 Mountain Rifle I stumbled across. I didn't like the throating so I spun the barrel off and set it back a bit and recut the chamber. I bedded it back in the wood stock and it shot lights out. A couple years later I set it in a Ti take off and it made it balance even better. It will shoot anything from 175 PT's and Horn's on down...and I expect it's in the running to be my old age do all rifle....excuse the crappy pic

This one is available.

When you pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Geeez, I will be watching the obituaries. Nice!

Oh Yes! I could make either one (preferably both) of those work very easily.. Nice!

One with lots of honest wear.....

Thanks Dan - just take that UNbalanced scope w/you.


Jerry <Grin>

Full disclosure here, two rifles standing...one on left is Eleanor O'Connor's 7x57 built by Tom Burgess and on the right Eleanor's "Big Rifle", a 30-06 built by Lenard Brownell.

Bottom pic...the 7x57.

Rev Mikes Got mine!

Holy Buffalo Chips !!

R U serious?

More, tell me more !


Jerry

Not much of a pic but a simple offering of an un molested ZG-47....

That's a 7x57!

Well, you are not Eleanor O' !!




Jerry

That Mauser is the pick of the litter.

And Jack was happy for it!!

They are on display at the Jack O'Connor Center in Lewiston, ID.

i MUST make the 'pilgrimage' !!

Thanks R O


Jerry

CZ 550 American

As I've said before...

The 7X57 is the 270 for WOMEN!



Jerry

That BRNO is excellent.

Years ago a guy brought one to our deer camp chambered in 30-06. Besides the look and feel, you know what I liked about it?

The trigger is set way back in the guard and a extreme crescent shape allows a insulated glove to fit thru nicely.

Sorry Rev

Went right over my head the 1st time.
bahahaha a

Jerry

Thanks Bob & Woods Walker!

RO, It's a very easy rifle to shoot and like you noticed, the trigger location works very well. The old rifle still shoots quite well also. According to the borescope it's not seen a lot of rounds. The original cork bedding could use some attention but I'm thinking it's best left alone.

fwiw,
I was fairly fond of the .270 WCF until I compared actual drops to a 7mm-08 Remington.. Not to mention I was giving up 2 or 3 inches of barrel length. I think it amazed both of us just how close, the 7mm-08 was a bit flatter, with 140 grain bullets the two actually are... WHY rehash a 7mm Mauser when we have Lapua 7mm-08 Remington Brass?

Ya'll are going to have the Campfire Spear Model 2 Mark 1 and the following year you can have one called "Big Medicine" for taking down Mammoths on the move... Let's move forward Gents. Will be sleeping in my tank buttoned up. Realize my comments IN NO WAY impact the .275 Rigby. Entirely different chambering altogether...(grin)

Regards, Matt.

Matt -

I don't know you and am concerned for your well being.

Don't you know that comments like that, EVEN comparing the 270-7-08 with the 7X57,....

will get you circumcised..err I mean ostracized from the 'fire.

Man, you ought ta think about that! !


Jerry

Not only unbalanced, but unhinged. Take it to the bank.

Actually, its OK to compare the 7x57 to the 7-08.....not that theres any comparison to make....the panache of the original casts a pall over the usurper.


Comparing the 7x57 to a .270 however is like comparing Christie Brinkley to Rosie Odonnell.

Ing'

I can't believe U said that !!


Jerry

Well, dynamite ? ?

Jerry

I have been a 7X57 fan for years but I must confess to a fondness for the 7MM-08 as well as the 257R. My 7X57's consist of three Pre64 M70's, a custom 7X57AI on a Sako action and a current build in progress as my interpretation of an English stalking rifle. I'm going to cheat though and have this one marked 275 Rigby just to be different.

Gentlemen,
The first barrel I ever chambered was a 7x57 Mauser built on a Remington imported Zastava 98 Mauser. Do believe they eventually started calling them 798s of all things... I pulled out most of the stops with an Austrian Kepplinger Two Stage Match Trigger, Recknagel M70 type three position safety, etc..

Still prefer the 7mm-08 Remington...(grin)

Regards, Matt.

C4 and Comp B....

The standardization of short actions around 2.8" cartridges means that the 7-08 is a better choice than the 7x57, but as I posted above some retro projects still demand the original.

Here are a couple of pics of one of the 7MM-08's.


The Rigby has a couple of months to go yet.

gsp -

Hooly Smooke Dewd!

I could like that, ummm yesterday!


Jerry

geeze dude, your are S T I N G Y ! ! !


Jerry

Cartridge of the century!

Innie:


Outie:


Sometimes it's just dinner.

No, the 7X57mm is not the cartridge of the year. Rather it is the 257 Roberts necked up to 7mm. The 7mm/257 is a cartridge that can be used to kill elephants!