I have had some people tell me how darn cool that are
I have been doing some mall cop research online
I have not been able to shoot one
but for the cost I dont see it being that cool

If it were 600 to 700 looks like a cool toy but at 1600 to 1800 it looses a bit of luster

Am I just missing it?

Hank

I'm not sure either. The guy that does my transfers aquired one recently. He changed out the trigger and raves about it. He says it's accurate, fast and handles well. I've handled it but haven't shot it yet. Most of it's mass is further back than on an AR and it feels good shouldered. The part that I don't think I would like is the muzzle is pretty close to my face. I bet it's loud.

The cool thing its its sold as a carbine no stamp required
and still has a 15in barrel for velosity

Hank

It's a nice bullpup.
But, in handling one, it seemed very unbalanced to me.
But it is a nice convenient and compact carbine.

I felt the same about the AUG too. Bought one, it was cool, but expected more for an $1800 rifle. For half that price, I'd buy another, but I think most of the price is because it's foreign.

a fellow firefighter loves Israel, all... and so bought one.

I'm not overly impressed with it, but then again I"m SO used to a normal AR that has an effect on my opinion.

When you pay that much to have a less accurate piston gun that has to have the trigger replaced with an expensive one to start with.....

Now if someone gave me one, tis possible to get used to it and end up liking it more... you never know.

What can it do better than a 16 inch ar?

Well, being OAL shorter, it could be handier in tight quarters, where triggers and accuracy doesn't much matter.

You could learn to deal wiht the balance either better or worse, but only running a couple thousand rounds through one could answer the question for each person.

Beyond that, I dunno, I never was after polished chrome wrenches. Don't even care if the wrench has a bit of rust as long as its solid and works right.

Can't say if this is chrome or not. I'd say its mostly a chrome thing IMHO.

^^^This^^^

Bullpups are one of those ideas that seems great on paper, yet falls far short in reality. When tested and measured for accuracy, speed, handling, manipulations- pretty much every aspect that matters for a practical/combat carbine, they pale in comparison to the M16/M4 family of weapons. Their sole "benefit" is reduced overall length with a longer barrel for higher velocity. Yet not only is that not always a good thing when trying to hit targets, it is no longer a problem.

There is ammo available that will expand/fragment in excess of 400m from a 10.5in barrel. Anyone issued 10.5's in the military have at least two types and civilians have no such problems.


The balance of bullpups are only in carrying them. They suck for shooting. There is a reason (or lots and lots of reasons) that every single unit/organization that has a choice, chooses an M4 based weapon. Even in countries that issue bullpups- the "special" units use M4's or a variation thereof.

Thats interesting info on the spec forces in all countries running an M4 type instead.

I still have no interest in trying, and certainly not at that cost. As the current platform works.

This^

It lets you pivot and watch your six in a shoulder width underground tunnel without lowering your weapon.

Just saying

This^^^^^^
I went through a bull pup phase. I just absolutely thought I had to have. I had an MSAR and a RFB. I have neither now. Lol

Bullpups do what they do well...be compact.
But reloading is arduous and a long transfer trigger mechanism is almost impossible to make crisp.

You get used to the difference in weight distribution fast. You're just used to the forward heaviness of an AR carbine. You also quickly appreciate the intuitiveness of the operations compared to an AR. It does, however, require a switch out of the issue trigger component to a Geissele drop in replacement. The original trigger is god awful. With the Geissele, it's an awesome rifle. Piston operated, too, so clean and reliable. Not to mention, you have what's functionally an SBR, without the paperwork and government supervision, and without giving up a normal length barrel.

Because of the rearward weight distribution, you can actually hold it at the ready, and able to fire it, with one arm while using your other arm to open doors and such.

Junk.




Travis

You've wrung one out pretty good, have you? What about it causes you to conclude it's junk?

I picked up a Tavor a couple months ago. SO far it's so-so. Trigger is horendous to put it lightly. My trigger scale goes to 10lbs and it takes considerable force beyond that! Accuracy is decent and I'm only shooting it with XM193 ammo and an EoTech with a 3x magnifier on it and aging eyes. It's heavy and doesn't balance that well IMO but you can hold it at the ready for a long time due to the weight distribution.

If the SHTF I'm grabbing my 1.5" AR though as it's lighter, more accurate, has a better trigger and is easier to work on.

I will probably sell it next year as I live by the motto "the one who gets to play with the most toys wins"

By 1.5" AR do you mean it groups that size at a hundred yards?

As for the trigger, like I said, I don't recommend even buying the Tavor unless you know from the start that it needs a Geissele trigger to replace the one it comes with. It's not the same rifle once that's replaced.

PS Apparently the IDF thinks it's enough better than the AR to give up the free ones they can get from the U.S. and manufacture enough Tavors to do a total switch over. I may not approve of the behavior of the State of Israel, but few will question the seriousness of their defense forces, and its ability to evaluate weapons systems in the field.

PPS I believe all Tavors are manufactured in the U.S. by Americans in Israeli owned facilities. The military versions are then sent to Israel, and the dozen or so other nations currently switching to them, while the semi-auto versions get sold domestically.

Look at it.



Travis

Looks can be deceiving. Look at the Glock.

The Tavor is perfect for the niche it was intended..which is...bilking money out of gullible gun aficionado's.

LOL, oh come on now. Do I detect a slight case of sour grapes?

Show me them clearing a jam.

This is where the BUll PUPs failed in the carbine classes I took.

One was a Tavor, one was a Sig(?), one was the Ke-Tec 308.

We sent up different failrues (double feed, etc.) and they were more difficult.

Show me a forced transition to the opposite side of the gun, with the case ejecting into your body.

Also, a right sided gun being forced into shooting from the left side in the middle of fight if FINE for a AR.

The TAVOR, not so much. This is what caused jams that we did NOT set up in class.

BMT

BTW-The Kel-Tec was very cool with the front ejection (shot right or left fine). But still sucked at clearing jams/malfunctions.

BMT

"The manual of arms (the operation of the gun and drills to mitigate malfunctions) is in principle very similar to that of an AR-15. Malfunction drills work just like an AR. Yes, some controls are in different places, but the steps that have to be done when it goes click instead of bang are identical. The only thing that I had a hard time getting used to was locking the bolt open. Jonathan, on the other hand had no trouble with this. In the end, it’s no easier or harder than an AR. Just different." Link

Not me dude, I am 100% into AR's, I would not even attempt to use something that was not almost instinctive to me at this point.

Is this comment supposed to make sense?




Travis

Completely understandable.

I've owned and enjoyed ARs since the late 1970s. Haven't been without one since. The one in this picture is AR number five for me. It's a Sig P516 G2 piston gun with a ten inch barrel, classified a handgun, and sporting an arm brace (not a shoulder stock). It's also sporting an AimPoint Micro T2 with a Larue lever-detachable base, a set of Troy Industries flip up sights, and an AGL Combat Trigger, which I love.

Junk.




Travis

Oh, I forgot. To you, a Glock is the image of perfection. Well, I like them, but I don't think they exactly exude the look of quality, at least in the traditional sense.

Nice comparison. I see the coolness factor in the Tavor now. Is the pistol a black out

Both are 5.56 NATO. Switching the Tavor to Blackout or 9mm is easy peasy. In 9mm it uses Colt stick mags.

If you're trying to make no sense, you're on a roll.



Travis

Steaming pile of fugking schit.





Travis

Oh, I'm cut to the quick.

You've really let your mean little boy out to play tonight.

I could sort of like the idea of a bullpup for a HD gun, easier to use in tight quarters, etc. For a general purpose rifle? ummm....

The price keeps dropping, so at some point I may try a Kel-tec shotgun.

One of the local shops has a Sig 716 pistol (yes, a .308 pistol with a 12" barrel) and the Sig brace. I suspect one shot, even a miss, would send the bad guys running.

true, my local shop has one of these 308's as well, there are no bounds to foolishness. The Tavor is short that is a good point, nevertheless I shall stick to my regular DI DD, Colt etc guns I know that they work fine and I know how to make them work....

Sorry I left out a "0" it's a 10.5" AR.

I understand that the Israelies are using it and they must have a reason. Maybe it's the shortness?

Look into it. It's more than that. It's just a much more modern military main infantry weapon. Modularity, ease of maintenance, etc.,.

Just stating facts.




Travis

I've been around a 10" .30-30. They are exceedingly unpleasant. a 8.5" .308 would be Uber unpleasant

Great review on a worthless hunk of schit.

I do hope they sell though.




Travis

No. He is like a character on the Letterman show. It's weirdness so bad it's funny.

The Tavor costs what it costs. I have one and expect to have another before the end of the year. On the whole I'd say the Tavor falls into the PDW category and maybe price competes as much with Wilson Combat and other high end handguns much more than with true rifles or even carbines.

My immediate comparison is with an old - LEO marked when I got it so I've had it quite a while and I'd say bonded OK - 6920 M4gerie. Incidentally current 6920 prices from CDNN and others are a fabulous deal buy 2 and half of those instead of a Tavor if you don't already have at least a brace of AR's. Great value and far more versatile than a Tavor - I've got a 24" Shilen barrel in .204 Ruger on a Colt lower and I can't imagine wanting that on a Tavor chassis even if it were free.

No question the AR is a better choice for a designated marksman role and that's more the civilian role in an end of the world as we know it conflict. I'm moving a CQB sight and light from the AR to the Tavor and going with a 3-gun style higher magnification at least available setup on the 6920. I say this to emphasize that I see a difference in roles.

For folks who've gone to the trouble and expense of papering a short barreled AR and adding a can for indoor use I'd go with the Tavor every time - likely enough in 9x19 with the cute and short suppressor - doesn't work with anything else but is really neat on a 9x19 Tavor so far.

See Jerry Miculek's videos of fun with a Tavor for suggestions including in vehicle to longer ranges.

Seems that the coolness factor is only in its short length.

A one trick pony,$2000/8MOA gun??

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/06/foghorn/gun-review-iwi-tavor-sar/

There are many types of insanity...this one guy we ran into was dumping all his AR's and going strictly .40SW Keltec sub 2000's...

Not for a second am I suggesting that anyone here is insane...

OK. Understood.

Jimmy, the Glock reference was made in response to Travis commenting that he knew the Tavor was junk because of what it looked like. My reply reminded him that many thought the same about the Glock when it was introduced, thus looks aren't necessarily a good basis for judging whether something is junk. Seems unlikely, in fact, that the IDF would switch their entire force to junk. I imagine they gave it a very good wringing out before making the decision, in fact.

Not unpleasent at all. Remember the 30/30 is loaded with much slower powder than the 300BO. I have an 8.5" 300BO and it's a very mild report.

Bullpups are a step backwards into the days when Drill instructors beat left handed shooters.

Actually, the Tavor can be easily switched into a 100% left hand rifle. Takes a couple of minutes to do so. Being convertible and being ambi aren't the same, I understand that, but it's pretty versatile in that regard.

The FAL pictured in the video is a full length 7.62x51 NATO/.308 Win, not a .300 Blackout

TRH,

I've shot, worked with and seen bullpups used.... Maybe not as much as you as it has only been a few hundred thousand rounds..... They are built for people that don't shoot. When the goal is hitting a target as fast as possible, generally from unusual and awkward positions- bullpups suck.

I've shot, worked with, trained with and trained Israelis. There is a lot of redeeming qualities that they possess...... Skill at arms is not among them. Overall they are a conscript military. They have a few units that are better, yet like everyone else besides America they lack the resources, institutional knowledge and culture of guns. This can not be overstated. There are US Reserve and National Guard units that are better trained, funded and prepared than Israel's very best.

I do not mean that as a slight, I mean it as ground truth and why what they use should have absolutely no bearing on anyone's weapon choice.

Having said that, again- EVERY SINGLE "special" unit in countries that issue bullpups use an M4 derivative weapon. Read that again. Every single Israeli unit that has a choice uses an M4 based gun.


You can take to the bank that the best shooters and killers on planet earth reside in the United States. They all shoot M4 derivatives. Where I come from that's called a clue.

That must be why Hezbollah kicked their butts in Lebanon.

interesting, thanks. I might start another thread with a related question.

here is a smoking deal on an 8 MOA Travor...

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/fs-tavor-16-od-green-5-56-nib.1008029/