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#1982342 - 01/31/08 07:09 AM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: IndyCA35]
allenday Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 3052
Loc: Yamhill Co., OR
I've used the 458 Win. Mag. before in Tanzania on buffalo, hippo, and zebra with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids @ 2100 fps. MV, and I've also used the 416 Rem. Mag. with 400 gr. Swift A-Frames @ 2400 fps. MV as well as 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs @ 2470 fps. MV. Both cartridges and all of these loads have been absolutely devastating, and to say that one worked well while the others didn't would be rather ridiculous.

Even so, no matter how much us 416 fans love our rifles, a properly-loaded 458 Win. Mag. is still more rifle, and those big 500 gr. bullets clobber the biggest stuff harder and have the weight (and thus, momentum) to penetrate deeper, on average.

I still think that good 500 gr. bullets loaded to 2100 fps. or better get the most performance that the 458 Win. Mag. has to offer, and with today's powders, that's not all that tough to achieve. In many ways, the 458 Win. Mag. is today a better cartridge than it's ever been before, especially with much more suitable, modern powders and contemporary bullets, and especially with modern, high-performance factory loads (like Winchester's new 500 gr. Nosler Part. & solid ammo promises to be), the 458 Win. Mag. ain't no slouch, and many of the old objections to it are somewhat obsolete.

Do I think that the bigger 458s like the Lott, Dakota, and Weatherby are still fundamentally better?

Yes I do, but all of them still burn more powder and kick harder than the 458 Winchester does, plus the man who can find a good buy on an older, high-quality factory 458 Win. like a Browning Safari or Model 70 can certainly tune-up, adjust, load for, and make hum to the point of having a totally sufficient dangerous game rifle that'll get any job done, from hunting lions to elephants.

A few years ago, I sold my old Model 70 Classic 458 Win. Mag. to a good friend and hunting partner, and a short time later one of our mutual friends bought a Ruger Magnum 458 Lott. It terms of handiness, balance, and light carrying weight, that old Model 70 with its 22" bbl. is a far more user-friendly and practical rifle to carry than that Ruger Lott is, and if I had the choice of either one of them to select for an elephant hunt (long hikes day-in and day-out), I'd grab that Model 70 in a heartbeat.

Another good reason to go with the 458 Win. Mag........

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#1984344 - 01/31/08 08:05 PM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: allenday]
JPK Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 782
I have to agree with Allen, his analysis covers it all.

But I'll mention that getting 500gr bullets to 2150fps and beyond, while staying within book loads, is no trouble with a couple of today's powders, especially AA2230.

I'll also add that flat nose monometal solids like the North Fork or the GS Custom in 450grs outperform the 500gr solids, with far greater penetration and no loss in apparent impact effect. The 450's can run a good bit faster. I run the 500's at 2145fps muzzle velocity using AA2230 and the 450's at 2200fps using H4895. Neither load is anywhere near max and neither has proven temp sensative. Both loads are completely adequate and more for buff or eles, the 450's get the nod for eles because of the greater penetration. I've knocked down or down and out several eles with less than perfect brain shots with both loads, stopped a charge with the 450, and that shot wasn't perfect either.

JPK


Edited by JPK (01/31/08 08:06 PM)

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#1985831 - 02/01/08 01:23 PM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: Odessa]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Indy,
that only says part of the story, it sounds good but its not a fact by any means...Sectional density, is a very important part of any DG round and a short stubbey 458 will not penetrate well enough for buffalo and elephant..The only way a .458 qualifies IMO for a DG round is with a good handload and a 500 gr. bullet that is long enough to have sufficient penetration. The monolithics can change this according to some, but then they can do the same for a .416 so the equasion never changes...By the same token I won't shoot 300 gr. bullets in my .416 even though they have the same velocity as a 300 win or something on that order.

A 350 or 400 gr. .458 is more of a ball than a bullet IMO...however I speak for myself and have no quarrel with those that choose to do otherwise.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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#1986810 - 02/01/08 07:51 PM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: atkinsonhunting]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 3429
Loc:
atkinson,

I know about sectional density but what about JPK's contention that the flat point shape of 450 grain North Forks creates an effect that lets them penetrate deeper than Kynoch-shaped 500 grain round noses which have better sectional density? In other posts, JPK has actually shot animals with North Forks to prove this, IIRC. Also, there have been some theoretical studies about this posted on various boards, though personally I trust the people who have used them better than the theoretical studies.

Irrespective of shape, the sectional density of the 450 is over 300 and I can get 2250 fps with no pressure problems. From what I have read, that should put my .458 easily into the DG range.

The 450 grain .458 bullet has slightly better sectional density than does the 300 grain .375, slightly lower velocity, and 50% more weight; also slightly less sectional density than the 400 grain .416. What's wrong with that?

The only problem is that North Fork went out of business. I only have 44 of these solids left. Fortunately, I have the load worked up and I keep very thorough notes. The North Forks shoot 1.0" lower than 450 grain TSXs in my rifle at 100 yards, so I don't even have to waste any confirming my zero. 44 might last many years.
_________________________
"Christianity is based upon the Golden Rule. Islam is based upon bringing the world to 'Perfection.' According to the Qur'an, Christians are at war with 'Perfection.' And we will die unless we fight and kill Radical Islam." B. Clegg

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#1986876 - 02/01/08 08:16 PM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: IndyCA35]
JPK Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 782
 Originally Posted By: IndyCA35
atkinson,

I know about sectional density but what about JPK's contention that the flat point shape of 450 grain North Forks creates an effect that lets them penetrate deeper than Kynoch-shaped 500 grain round noses which have better sectional density? In other posts, JPK has actually shot animals with North Forks to prove this, IIRC. Also, there have been some theoretical studies about this posted on various boards, though personally I trust the people who have used them better than the theoretical studies.

Irrespective of shape, the sectional density of the 450 is over 300 and I can get 2250 fps with no pressure problems. From what I have read, that should put my .458 easily into the DG range.

The 450 grain .458 bullet has slightly better sectional density than does the 300 grain .375, slightly lower velocity, and 50% more weight; also slightly less sectional density than the 400 grain .416. What's wrong with that?

The only problem is that North Fork went out of business. I only have 44 of these solids left. Fortunately, I have the load worked up and I keep very thorough notes. The North Forks shoot 1.0" lower than 450 grain TSXs in my rifle at 100 yards, so I don't even have to waste any confirming my zero. 44 might last many years.


It ain't a theory! 450gr North Frok flat nose solids at 2200fps far outpenetrate 500gr Woodleighs at 2145fps. This has been the case with every 450 shot vs every 500 shot. The issue of greater penetration is resolved, at least for me, but how much greater pentration? My measurements and experiments in elephants leads me to lean toward believing that its in the neighborhood of 40%. But so many North Forks exited that I don't have enough of a sample to be really comfortable with that assesment.

500grs, who post here and elsewhere has also done extensive test, more extensive than mine. He finds a lesser advantage, in the areas of 15% IIRC. But many of the test he tried were equal weight flat noses vs equal weight round noses at the same velocity. So it seems that the flat noses gain advantage through speed rather than mass. But I am unaware of any tests in real game or ballistic gell designed to smoke this out.

Does indicate why moving to 450gr solids in the 458wm results in such a phenominal increase in performance though. The fellow who turned me onto the 450 North Forks finds the same remarkable increase in performance in his 450NE No2, a rifle not limited by its cartridge case capacity - the 450NE No2 has an enourmous case thal ALWAYS requires a filler - but rather a rifle whose velocity is limited by the pressure it can withstand and also by how the two barrels were regulated (same issue regarding regulation for my 458wm DR too, which is why my 500's are limted to 2145fps and the 450's limited to 2200fps.))

From 500 Grains tests, I would be very confident shooting GS Custom flat nose mono bullets, btw.

On lighter weight non DG bullets, used for trajectory improvement. I am a fan of keep it simple stupid. One weight bullet for each rifle on safari. Then your selection is limited to soft or solid. Better a more arched trajectory than the wrong weight bullet up the spout or in the magazine. But I suppose you could keep the light weights "locked up" until all the DG for the trip is shot and then retire the heavies. Still I'd keep it simple.

And Indy, don't let Ray Atkinson fool you, he has been touting the 450gr North Fork cup points - not flat nose solids - for buff for years, so his line about 500's only is just argumentative bull.

JPK


Edited by JPK (02/01/08 08:31 PM)

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#1987510 - 02/02/08 07:34 AM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: rem338win]
tomk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 3701
Loc: Michigan
No, but a lot more than that.

The last Safari with knockout wood that went thru my hands was sold for 1300 USD...and they made a lot of 270s.

With a special order like yours and its condition, I imagine it has significantly more value to the right collector, than to a hunter.

In my experience, Browning collectors tend to be shy on full disclosure.:)

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#1987853 - 02/02/08 10:22 AM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: JPK]
allenday Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 3052
Loc: Yamhill Co., OR
North Fork 370 gr. .416 bullets penetrate and perform superbly, and I can't see that the North Fork .458s wouldn't work at least as effectively.

I surely do hope that someone starts producing North Fork bullets again, and that they are of the same quality as turned out by Mike Brady.

I'm hunting with North Forks again this season with my 416 rem. Mag., but unless these bullets come available once again, I'll be looking to work with something else after I'm back from this year's hunting........

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#1987866 - 02/02/08 10:30 AM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: allenday]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13195
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
 Originally Posted By: allenday


I surely do hope that someone starts producing North Fork bullets again, and that they are of the same quality as turned out by Mike Brady.

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Add me here! They were about as good as anyone could make.
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#1989465 - 02/03/08 05:42 AM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: luv2safari]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 3429
Loc:
Taking over North Fork bullets would be a good second career for someone who is retired. I sense you would have to have a little more penchant for marketing than Mr. Brady had. Also, I suspect the business may have gotten away from him a little. Someone else could either raise prices or hire more help or both. Depending on how much machinery and facilities are involved, one could either move to Wyoming (hunting is good) or move the business elsewhere. You could probably get a small business loan from the govt.

End of advertisement. I hope somebody does that.
_________________________
"Christianity is based upon the Golden Rule. Islam is based upon bringing the world to 'Perfection.' According to the Qur'an, Christians are at war with 'Perfection.' And we will die unless we fight and kill Radical Islam." B. Clegg

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#1995251 - 02/05/08 12:00 PM Re: The .458 Winchester [Re: IndyCA35]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
I love it when I get misquoted..I tested the Northforks before anyone ever used them and the 450 flat nose solids or cup points are fantastic bullets..

What I said was the 300, 350 and even the 400 gr. bullets are not long enough IMO and bullets without SD, tend to slow down quicker, penetrate less as they do not have the mass to push them IMO...especially in conventional bullets, but also in monolithics..reread my posts.

In monolithics I agree that is a good practice to go from the heavy bullet to the next bullet down such as from 500 gr. conventional to 450 gr. monolithics..but that is where you stop for dangerous game in a 458 cal...In a .416 you can drop to 350 gr. Monolithics but not to 300 gr. IMO...

So if you going to call BS then do the curtesy of reading the posts in full...
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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