Ranch13;

Now I am perplexed and a little befuddled. You keep misrepresenting what I have written, and it makes me wonder if you are genuinely confused on this topic or if you are just pulling the leg of the newest tenderfoot on the list?

You wrote, "I'm at a loss as to what would ever make someone want to put that much 4f in that primed cartridge, seat a bullet and then actually fire the thing."

I thought we had gone over this pretty thoroughly. There was a need to learn the muzzle velocities produced by moderate loads of 4Fg BP, a topic that had not been addressed in any of the manuals, and a procedure that had not been in general use since the world's military establishments all transitioned from BP to smokeless powder. A safe and rational test protocol was devised and implemented. Even though there was one unexpected over pressure experience, the safety margins built into the test protocol assured that no one, including myself, was in any danger. Is there any way I can say this more plainly?

You also said that you were at a loss as to why someone would, "then proceed to call all the existing data, and suggestions of where to go and what to do to get pressure data, 'questionable' 'suspect' and 'unreliable'."

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have not called all the existing data questionable, suspect, or unreliable.

While there are certainly modest discrepancies between the BP pressures published in various sources, the collective results are fairly close. Accurate's published BP cartridge pressure data does run about 10% higher than Lyman's. This is a simple and incontrovertible statement. Just look at their respective publications and you can see for yourself.

To pick a nit, I used the word "questionable" only in the following context. I'd written, "I don't recommend the use of 4Fg in BPCR rifles for several reasons. Number 1, nobody I know has done any pressure measurements to prove it is actually safe. Theory says it may be, but theory and reality are two different things, and I am not going to recommend anything that I think may be questionable or unproven." That means, the potential safety of 4Fg loads is questionable because no one that I know of has done any pressure testing on 4Fg cartridge loads, other than my observations of the normal primer appearance and muzzle velocities generated by fourteen 4Fg loads.

Similarly, doing a word search on my entries for the GOEX and Campfire boards, I did not call any pressure data "suspect." In the thread on the GOEX board, I'd written only, "I suspect that some BP cartridges may be running higher pressures than a lot of us realize." In all my posts on the Campfire board, I used the word "suspect" in only the following context. "I don't know what data SAAMI's 38-55 pressure limit of 30,000 psi is based on, but I suspect it must be a later high speed smokeless load intended for the Winchester 1894."

Also, I did not use the word "unreliable" on either the GOEX or the Campfire boards. I did talk about the concept of reliability or precision vs. accuracy, saying only that calibrated lab piezoelectric pressure test equipment was probably both more accurate and more precise or reliable than hobbyist strain gauge equipment.

Finally, I did not denigrate any suggestions offered as to where to go and what to do to get pressure data. Some folks offered suggestions about Pyrodex data but unfortunately Pyrodex does not produce the same pressure curve as BP. Others suggested sources that I had already tried, and I thanked everyone who made a constructive contribution to this discussion.

If you as a Campfire Ranger are just pulling my leg in hopes of continuing this useful discussion, then your efforts have been rewarded. I hope the information provided in these posts has been helpful to other shooters.

If you are still confused about this topic, then please say so without any additional and unhelpful personal invective or misrepresentations, and I will try to speak more plainly. We can have a useful conversation based on a difference of opinion concerning observed facts, but we will not get to any truths by behaving in an intemperate or impolitic manner.

All the best,

Dick