I played with the 17 s some never really warmed up to them...I thought the 17fb would be great but it was hard to load..finicky and I could kill more dogs with a 223... So it went the trip....it caused me to turn my nose up at the 20 cal stuff...but when a scored a Cooper in 204 cheap it was worth a try...that thing will kill like a 220 swift and has les recoil than a 223...so I immediately rebarreled my l461 to 20 tac and have forgotten the 17 cal even exists...