Dear Kevin,


Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Dan,

Very good. I just can�t understand why we still have people out there teaching point shooting when it has been proven time and time again that you can deliver an accurate aimed shot just as fast as if you point shoot. So if you�re going to choose between say a 40% chance of a hit or a 95% chance of a hit, which one will you choose? Yet, we still have LE shooting instructors who opt for the known lower hit percentage.

Originally Posted by Mando
In my nigh on twenty year law enforcement career I have talked to a zillion cops who have been in shoot outs some pretty darn extensive, I have never, ever heard of a bystander getting hit.


Mando � If that�s the way you want to train, so be it. But to insinuate that�s the only way an officer is going to survive is either self delusional or misleading. You said you�ve never heard of a bystander being hit or killed in a gunfight; wow, that really amazes me. I can name a couple incidents where I was on scene and exactly that happened. So when you�re researching shooting incidents, you�re either not paying attention or ignoring such things.

I don�t really follow such things, but a quick Google produced a few stories:
http://www.topix.com/city/san-mateo-ca/2007/09/da-says-bystander-was-shot-by-police-officer �A bystander who was wounded in a shootout following a July armed robbery was hit by a police officer, not by the robbery suspect, authorities said Friday.�
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/GPG0101/708170587/1978 �Sonnenberg, 25, was shot 11 times and killed during a traffic stop on April 21 outside of Studio 720, 720 Bodart St. Police accidentally shot Grijalva-Ortiz, 31, who was inside the club.�
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/police/hughes-update.html �Officer Wojcik was wounded by "friendly fire" and a bystander was shot in the leg.�
http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=78120 �police killed Ramirez and shot an innocent bystander�
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CF92B35-1C1D-4D2B-AD8E-88621106A0BA.htm �The guard's gunfire also apparently hit bystanders�
http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page208.html �- a sharp contrast to the Boxing Day shooting, when no intended victims were hit and seven bystanders were shot.�
http://www.pulitzer.org/year/1998/breaking-news-reporting/works/gunfire.html �Three civilians were also hit by gunfire�

Bystanders get hit in gunfights all the time. Some by the BG�s and some by cops, it�s the nature of gunfights. With LE some of these are covered up, this I know because one incident I was on scene at, the LE agency refused to release ballistic information, and to my knowledge never did.

Teaching point shooting when we know that aimed fire can happen just as fast and be significantly more effective is foolish.

If you spent a weekend at Gunsight, it will forever change your views. They keep track of how things work with point shooting and how things turn out with their graduates who use a flash confirmation sight picture. The last I checked, no graduate of gunsight has ever been killed in a shooting, and all shots have been accounted for. (my data is probably a decade old though)


what do you mean by writing, "...if that's how I was trained."? No one, to my knowledge, is trained to hit bystanders. Do you know of where one could find such training?

Now that you're amazed, please tell me of the incidents in which bystanders were wounded by police officer fire and of which you have direct knowledge. In what city where you a paramedic to have had such extensive exposure to such extensive shootout experience???

What was covered up by LE? Are your intimating a conspiracy? Just what was covered up? To even remotely insinuate such nonsense betrays your extensive experience. And why would the investigating officers, who would have been conducting a criminal investigation, share sensitive confidential information with a paramedic? There is not a damn thing in law enforcement that is not subjected to subpoena, save an ongoing criminal investigation, even personnel files, which are far easier to get in federal court than in sate court. So if you know of some purported reckless indifference to society where a bystander was wounded, why wasn't a lawsuit filed??? Don't forget, Kevin, that it is a felony to knowingly introduce lies as evidence in any court, criminal or civil. It is also a felony to introduce in court a report that is knowingly false!

When I read these fantasies of cabals, conspiracies, cover-ups, I immediately become extremely suspicious. While, Kevin, you might have incorrectly interpreted an event at the scene of one of the numerous shootings you've investigated, it is wholly sententious, pretentious, and arrogant to assume that, based upon your interpretation, cops would place themselves in jeopardy of prison by engaging in a cover-up. God forbid you worked where I did and even remotely tried to tamper with evidence or submitted a knowingly false report.

BTW, were you able to find more links than the ones you have posted? Did you peruse peruse each article? Were these articles credible? Were any conclusions stated in these articles supported by facts? Assuming for a second that these articles do represent actual factual incidents where citizens were wounded as a result of gunfire in a shootout in which a law enforcement office participated, of what percentage of shootouts would they constitute? Maybe far <.01%? That would make such incidents extremely rare, wouldn't you agree???

Kevin, how many bystanders were wounded in the the North Hollywood bank robbery??? The SLA shootout??? The Norco bannk robbery shootout??? Probably a zillion rounds combined in just these three, m'man! And all occurred during daylight hours!!!




Take care,

Mando