I think I posted on this thread or the other thread going right now about my experience with a hard quartering to me whitetail buck. In through the shoulder exit through the flank/front of the opposite rear ham. From the mush that bullet made of that deer I think that a shot made from the opposite direction would have been just fine also. Bergers are not magic but they and they are frangible, but the resulting shrapnel is not pixie dust. The pieces carry enough weight for substantial penetration. I cannot help that all of the other animals that I have killed with Bergers have been more traditional broad side shots.
EddyBo �
I recall seeing that now that you mention it. I saw you are from �SW MS� and assumed it was a small deer, perhaps incorrectly. Just for the record (and it may be in your post), bullet diameter/weight/impact velocity?
Since you shot it from the front, I assume it went straight down, particularly given the damage you describe. My concern is more with shots quartering away, or worse, and more about elk than deer or antelope. (For the most part, I use the same loads for all three.)
According to VLD proponents:
1. Berger says not to expect more than 2-3� penetration before expansion and 14� after that.
2. Bigsqueeze, a VLD advocate, says you need to limit the angle to 30-35 degrees max and I think I�ve seen others suggest avoiding raking shots.
3. Bigsqueeze also reports Ray at Berger suggests 2850fps as the maximum impact velocity to prevent bullet blowup.
4. Mule Deer says the fragments often fail to dent the off-side ribs.
5. More than one (not you) refuses to address the issue of performance when deep penetration is needed, as with the buck I shot in 2007. (It could just as easily have been an elk.) Some refuse to admit the situation is a valid concern, others just refuse to address the issue at all.
You�ve undoubtedly seen the picture of the buck taken with a 140g 6.5mm at 3400fps, provided earlier in this thread. Lots of unnecessary meat damage there. If that was an exit wound I�m sure it dropped quickly. If it was a blow up on entrance, maybe not. I don�t run any hunting bullets that fast, but some of mine clock over 3200fps at the muzzle. Slowing them down to 2850fps, as Bigsqueeze says Berger suggests, means what � I get to choose between not taking shots inside 175 yards or ruining a front quarter?
I�m sure the VLDs work just fine on most chest shots, as there is too much evidence to support that conclusion for me to ignore it. The bullets I currently use also work well and I don�t worry about the angles should things go bad, or their velocity or ability to penetrate.
...............Well let`s see here!
I as a VLD advocate personally prefer limiting angled shots to no more than 30-35 degrees. Doesn`t mean that a few 45s cannot be taken.
So what if Berger recomends a low impact velocity of 1800 and a high of about 2850 fps and up to 3000 fps max. Many other bullet makers have some kind of recomended impact velocities for proper expansion so they can do what they do. Well Berger has their recos too! Berger did tell me by phone "In order to avoid a potential problem with the bullet blowing up from too much speed, they reco`d those maximum impact velocities." He did not say "that if 3000 fps was exceeded as an impact velocity, that the bullet "would" blow up before penetrating the 2" to 3" that the Bergers are supposed to do.
From my 300 WSM Frontier carbine, that certainly isn`t a problem. The 190 VLD which I used on my last elk hunt, had an MV of approx 2865 fps using RL17. In fact, that shouldn`t been an issue for most all 30s including the 300 Win, 300 Bee, 30-06, 308 etc. For just about all average killing distances for elk, 1800 to 2850 fps as an impact speed, is right on par. And if one suspects that his elk will be taken closer at less than 100 yards with his 300 Bee or Win Mag, then he can always load `er down to accomodate the VLD recomended impact speed.
I have addressed very plainly, the issue of penetration or the lack of it by the VLDs. More penetrations are needed IF the shooting angles are too wide and as a last resort on the last day of the hunt, a hind shot is taken to then penetrate forward to the vitals.
I have repeatedly stated, that the VLDs do not kill via a great deal of penetration. That is not the VLD gig or Berger`s concept of killing game.
As far as the deer pic is concerned where a 6.5mm VLD was used at a 3400 fps MV? Yep! I see alot of damage in the shoulder and neck area. But so what? Still plenty of meat there to be had from that deer from other areas.
And why should it matter whether the VLDs dent the off or opposite side ribs or not? Regardless, as long as you have a kill, what difference does that make? On larger girthed elk, VLD fragmentation doesn`t generally penetrate to the off side anyway. As long as the vitals are disrupted which really insures a kill, then why are complete pass throughs or almost complete pass throughs needed?...Oh I know! Just in case there is a wide angled shot or just in case one needs to track the game.
Your main beef with the VLDs are based on the "what ifs." What "if this" or "what if that" happens. We all think about those "what ifs." Guess I`m just lucky uh?...........48 one shot VLD kills. All taken at 35 degree shot angles or less, and all ran no further than a few yards after impact. Keep in mind though that over 45+ years of hunting, I have about 200 to 225 other head of game (mostly hogs) taken with other bullets, none of which were a hind quarter shot, or shots taken at extreme quartering angles. Lucky there too I guess.
In fact, I`ve seen a few cases of people coming back empty handed from their hunts, regardless of what darn bullet they were using.
