Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Penitration or lack there of

I went along on a muzzleloader Mule deer hunt a few weeks ago with 3 friends. I was the only one not hunting. My friends were using modern in line Knight and Traditions rifles in .50 cal. They also used Pyradex pellets, sabots and jacketed bullets in the 240-260gr. weight class.
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<br>Three deer were taken at ranges of 40-60yds. The deer were 2 forked horns and one 3x3. All were average sized deer for the area. All shots were broad side. None of the bullets exited.
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<br>All the deer either dropped in their tracks or within a few yards of point of impact. Though mortally wounded, they all required a finisher.
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<br>Frankly I was surprised these bullets did not penetrate completely. Is this performance typical of what a person can expect from a modern muzzleloader? A 4-inch 44mag shooting similar weight bullets would do as well if not better. I think it would be hard to keep them inside a broad side deer at 50yds or so.
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<br>These bullets seemed to have plenty of killing power for deer sized animals. Elk and up would need a bit, maybe quite a bit more.
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<br>What kinds of performance have you guys seen on game? Is lack of penetration a problem?
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I have very limited experience with this, bit have used a similar bullet over 70 gr. of pyrodex on one deer. That bullet penetrated the "elbow knuckle", went through the heart and out the ribs on the off side. Range was about 30 yards, I was pleased.
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<br>I used a 240gr Knight bullet.
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<br>I would think the bullets used were quick expanding "defensive pistol" bullets, not older JHPs or Nosler Partitions. But that is just a guess.
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<br>If it was me I would not be satisfied with that level of penetration and would look for an older bullet design that expands slower.
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<br>Bob
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I'll keep a long story (nightmare) short. I shot two bulls with Black Belt 405 grain (?) .50 cal hollow points. They were the recommendation of choice at the local ML shop.
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<br>Well, on a broadside shot they have a tough time making it as far as the second lung. I lost a super bull early in the hunt and spent most of 3 days trying to locate him. I'm POSITIVE about the shot placement as I had plenty of time to watch the bull after the shot. Anyway, drilled another nice bull 4 days later at only 30 yards and he just stood there. After 5+ minutes he hadn't tipped over so managed to reload while prone and put another in him. This time he layed down, but after 10 minutes more, still alive. This time I had to move to get another shot and when I did, he jumped up and ran off. Managed another shot at about 90 yards as he ran full tilt through the lodgepoles. Nailed him again (all 3 shots into the same side though). Finally, he was too sick to go further and a full 35 minutes after the first shot, it took a 4th from 10 feet to put him down for the count. I was sick!
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<br>Moral of the story? You're already getting a .50 cal + hole, why worry about significant expansion? Give me a pass through every time!!! I can't use sabots where I hunt, so don't know anything about them. I'd like to try the barnes ML bullets but will have to wait for a version that is legal in CO. I'll be a maxi-ball fan until I can find something that will out penetrate it. BTW, I've shot 2 bulls with maxi-balls and neither exited, but at least they made it through both lungs!

I have killed a lot of deer with my 50. cal CVA mountian rifle. But I have never used anything except 120 grs. of fffg and a patched round ball. I have recovered only one round ball, all the others made an exit. I keep the distance short, 30 to 100 yards. and try to put them behind the sholder. I have no experience with jacketed bullets,sabaots, or fake powders. btw - my target load is 70 grs. of fffg. in that rifle. I shoot tennis balls off of a pond at 40 yards with that load. If I hit them just right they launch into orbit.
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<br>I do not try to modernize my black powder rifle performance. We don't have any advantages such as early seasons etc... so my reason for hunting with the muzzle loader is nostaligic, the challenge of getting closer, keeping my powder dry, And making meat to the smell of burning sulpher. Were I to get the chance to hunt Elk with it I might try a bullet shaped lead projectile just for the added weight and penetration. But I have yet to find round balls lacking in penertation on deer.

The bullets used by my friends used were from Hornady and I believe Nosler.
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<br>I am leaning toward hard cast lead alloy bullets similar to what one would use in a hunting handgun. A good Keith style bullet at 450 to 500gr. should do the trick. Your idea that a .50 cal hole being enough is about the same as what I am thinking.
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<br>We don�t have the luxury of high velocity so a heavy for caliber, tough bullet with a large flat meplat seems the best answer.
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I've used everything from 180gr XTP's to 505gr Minnies.
<br>The 180gr XTP's were purposely used for safety in a
<br>populated area -- they didn't exit, but made a devestating
<br>wound to both lungs, using 150gr equivalents with Clear
<br>Shot and Clean Shot.
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<br> This year, I tried the PR Dead Center 200gr Bullets. I've
<br>never rolled a deer before. These things are NASTY! And
<br>yes, they go clear through. Their url is www.prbullet.com

I will have to agree with PDS on the round balls. I have shot several deer with round balls and 90 gr. of Pyrodex Select in 50 cal. rifles. Ranges have been anywhere from 20 feet to 65 yards and all have gone on thru.
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<br>Only shot one deer with saboted bullets. Was a TC PTX using 120 gr. Pyrodex Select at 160 yards out of a TC Black Diamond ER. This one went thru the close shoulder, heart and was in the upper leg on the far side.
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<br>None of these deer required another shot to finish them off. Most of the ones shot with round balls only moved in one direction and that was down.
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<br>Am now working on a load with the X-Tended Range Sabots from Cabela's (same as PR bullets). So far these things on paper are gonna be the cats meow.

I just came back from a deer hunting trip and I am proud to be able to report some info on what you asked.
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<br>I shoot a Lyman trade rifle 50 cal flintlock using 80 gr FFg pushing a 333 grain T/C maxi' ball I hand cast from pure lead. It chrono's at 1600 FPS.
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<br>I tipped over a 9 point white tail at a distance of 60 yards. He ran 60 yards and piled up. (I'll be posting a full story with pics on the big game board later...) I was in a tree stand 30 feet up. The buck was facing me. The bullet hit just between the right front shoulder and the spine and traveled 24 inches! by my rudimentary measurements. The bullet was found just shy of the right rear ham. It wieghed 317 grains and mushroomed nicely.

blammer - Bravo! I plan to give those maxihunters a try this weekend.
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<br>Regards, sse

Muley, will your state allow CVA Powerbelts? They are a lead-to-bore bullet, but do have a plastic skirt. I'm working on a story now regarding my ML buck taken with one. That tale of yours is a nightmare story!
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<br>I believe a single shot (behind the shoulder) with the CVA I put into my whitetail would have done an elk in good fashion. I have more experimenting to do.
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<br>Jeff

Talus, yep they are allowed. I believe though, that they and the black belts are one in the same. That said, I had a buddy shoot a cow elk with the copper clad hollow point and it worked out fine for him (even though I tried to steer him away from them). I'd also imagine that the flat points would be fine too.
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<br>Nightmare is right! Which is why I haven't tried the other black belts even though common sense says they should work fine. Of the two elk I've shot with maxiballs, one dropped on the shot and the other only went 80 yards.
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<br>Live and learn!

MS, I'm talking about a slightly underbored lead bullet with a green skirt at the bottom. The skirt is about 3/16" and fits around the bottom of the bullet. It is held in place by a "nipple" cast into the bullet.
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<br>I bought a pack a couple years ago. I understand they now come in something like 240 grains. I will try that size, as 295 is a bit much. I don't have a chrony, so no idea how fast she was going. The bullet retained 77% weight though, and was balled up under the hide after quite a lot of penetration. Again, I would prefer the faster 240.
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<br>I'll be glad to experiment on elk/bear ASAP! I think the iron sights on this gun will keep me within lethal range. Sounds like you would have been better off with a bow in your prior story.
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<br>I should be makin' smoke again when ML season comes into the Central NC zone on Nov. 9. Deer are in full rut here now, and I've got a couple honey-holes to take the boy to!
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<br>Jeff

Talus. Those CVA belts are meant for the more precision bored muzzle loaders like the inlines. I just went through a learning curve with TC after my Hawkin bellied up and I had to get something for a deer season pretty quick. So I bought a TC Black Diamond that a local store had in and a fellow never picked up. It wouldn't shoot any of the cast bullest worth a plug nickel and TC advised these Power Belts (295) gr over 100 gr powder..Don't know how they would work in a regular front stuffer meant for cast bullets since they are not full diameter as std lead bullets
<br>I never got to plunk adeer , but I got one on my desk that went into dirt ( not a real test of expansion) and it is 1 1/4 inch in dia and mushroomed all the way back to the nub that holds the skirt on. In addition I have a targert with 3 shots at 100 yds that measures 1.3 inches done with iron sights

Talus, yep you described the black belts perfectly! Except the ones I used were heavier. I'm pretty sure they are one in the same. I'd just stay away from the hollow point lead ones if you go for elk.

Greetings.
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<br>I have been using Speer Gold Dot 270 gr. 44 cal bullets w/ sabot in my Traditions 50 cal in line. To say I have been pleased with the performance of these bullets is an understatement.
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<br>These Gold Dot's are HARD. In my opinon that hardness has gone a long way to ensure breaking bones and exiting. The velocity of the projectile also is going to be a factor if you want an exit.
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<br>The best example I have was in Dec of 2000. I shot a yearling buck at 60 paces through the near shoulder. The bullet entered the near shoulder, went through the top of both lungs, breaking the off shoulder. There was a .44 cal hole on near side, and a slightly larger exit hole on the off side. The deer simply fell over and died.
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<br>The load I was using at the time was 85 grains of Clean Shot, 50 cal Hornady sabot, and a 270 gr .44 cal Speer Gold Dot. Chronied the load. I don't remember the exact fps. but it was around 1340 to 1360 fps. This was a pretty accurate load for this rifle.
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<br>My brother in law and a friend of his did not like the performance they saw with some of the Hornady bullets & sabots they used (purchased as in a pack). In my opinion the bullets were too soft. They expanded, but didn't give much penetration. One buck required 3 or 4 follow up shots.
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<br>My experience with the Gold Dot's left me with the impression that the bullet was just starting to expand as it was exiting the off shoulder.
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<br>What I've learned from my own experience and that of others is that you should use a good quality projectile that will not expand too quickly. As someone said above, you are already starting with a 50 cal hole (or in my case a .44 cal hole).
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<br>Good shooting.
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<br>gundog

I have shot 7 whitetails and 5 hogs with the .50 round ball. All were lung shots, and all balls exited. None of these animals ran over 50 yards. Longest shot was 70 yards.I have been amazed at the performance of the round ball.

Can't believe no ones shooting Barnes saboted bullets. After having trouble with jacketed bullets coming apart I switched to the Barnes. Shot a 140 lb buck in the shoulder. Dropped him in his tracks, turned both shoulders into jelly, and left a huge exit hole.

LSU fan, I just switched over to the 250 grain Barnes bullets this year. Only got to shoot one deer so far. Shot a spike buck at about 40 yards. Bullet entered right behind left shoulder, both lungs were totally devastated, exited center of ribcage on right side. 50 cal. entry hole...large exit hole with about a 2 inch piece of rib missing. I have been totally satisfied with the accuracy and on game performance so far. Shooting 100 gr. of Clean Shot through a Knight Wolverine.

I use a .45 . First bullets I used were the knight 155 grain with 155 grains in pellets. Barnes makes the knight bullet.Anyway I shot a smallish doe at close range on a steep downhill angle dropping her in her tracks. Shot went through the spine and the perfectly expanded bullet was recovered just under the hide on the off side. I was extremely disappointed that the bullet did not exit at such close range under a full charge. Expanded bullet measured .80 . I now shoot the barnes 195 grain bullets which is the same as the knight only 40 grains heavier. I have shot 11 deer since then including a couple briusers from ten yards to a couple well over 150 yards and not recovered a bullet yet . I think the .45 barnes is better than the .50 barnes as it has a much more moderate hollow point compared to it's caliber size than the .50's I saw which looked like they'd expand to the size of a pie plate. I've taken a few deer wityh PR QT spitzers .40 cal. and 250 grains. These really blow through the deer as well. I think if you really want penetration you want a .45 shooting 450+ conicals. Ironic that alot of states won't allow it for elk when it's probally the best elk round out there muzzleloading wise.

OK Guys! Here's three posts on muzzleloaders using Barnes bullets. I've done a little research and for those of us shooting 'modern' muzzleloaders it's sure looking like the Barnes bullets are the way to go. Can we hear from other muzzleloaders using the Barnes bullets? Thanks!