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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
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Waiting for a couple jobs to finish, so you get to suffer from my boredom. As background, a .308" bore actually consists of a .300" diameter circle bored through a barrel, and then rifling added which makes the rifling-rifling width a total of .308". Now there's been a lot of talk about .224 bullets being bad for 22HP's which have a .228" bore over the long run, because they don't seal the barrel and hot gasses escaping past the bullet will erode the metal. That's a very valid concern... Except, a .228" barrel is would typically have a main bore of .220", and rifling added that makes it .228" max width from the bottom of one rifling to the bottom of the opposite rifling. But.. there's this report from 1920 which state that the 22HP bores were actually .226", and they did the same trick with oversized bullets of .228" similar to the .303 caliber bullets out of a 30 caliber barrel they did in the 303 Savage very early on. If that's the case, then the main bore on a 22HP would probably be .218" and the rifling extends it to .226". Which is the same main bore that's on a modern 5.56 which shoots .224 bullets. -- Horace Kephart, Outing article 1920 introducing the 1920: "Again when they brought out the .22 H. P., they made the bullets .228 for a .226 barrel."My thought is regardless of whether the bore is a .226" or .228" on a 22HP, that a .224" bullet is going to seal that barrel just fine because the rifling is a small portion of the bore surface. So the .224" bullet will be swaged down to .218" or .220" over the majority of the body, and the (relatively) soft copper will be squeezed into the lands to a depth of .228" quite easily. Am I off? I would still say .224" bullets aren't ideal for the .228 barrels, if nothing else the difference in diameter will change the pressure and velocities you get. But I just don't see it being "bad" for the rifle. Now the fun part is to dig out my 22HP and slug the barrel to see if it's really .226".
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2 |
You're not off, by much. I now have four functioning .22HP barrels in my arsenal. I recently slugged all of them, and did chamber casts as well. Dimensions weren't as different between them as I thought they would be. Three have .228 groove diameters, one is .227. Depth of grooves run .003 in the three .228s and .0035" (near as I can tell) in the .227, which equals .222 and .220 bore diameters respectively. Throat diameters tell a different story. The throats all run .230, except the .227 barrel which is .229. Again nothing out of the ordinary, as typically a throat is one or two thousandths bigger than groove diameter anyway. I went to all the aggravation of measuring those barrels with the aim of having a custom mold cut for cast bullets. (To throw a bullet cast from wheelweights at .230", sized to .2295", with a bore riding nose tapered to match the taper of the leade, with a length of .7" to stabilize in a 1-12" twist. Cast bullets should be sized for a nice fit in the throat, not the groove diameter. The molds I have now aren't perfect in that regard.)
I wonder if Horace Gephart was speaking from empirical observation or repeating a theory he heard at the counter of a country gun shop? Who knows.
As I believe I stated once before, a .224 bullet is certainly viable in such a large bore. Is it "bad"? Depends on one's definition of bad. It just won't bump up to seal said bore quick enough to minimize gas cutting as a proper size bullet will. No big deal if not very many shots get fired per year, IMO. It becomes a big deal if the gun is shot a lot. Let's face it, not many of us here shoot them that much, except for me and one certain member in Michigan whose initials are "saddlering" who shall go un-named, and perhaps one or two others.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1 |
Hell my Lis. plate on my Jeep reads 22HPsav, a bit off corse I have never seen an AD for the 22Hps, a lot of the savage ads say High Power but it seems to always be for the 2503000, Im likeing the one on Ebay with the 303 and the Tiger tho! I have never tried a 224 bullet in the Hps like the 228s just fine!
Last edited by saddlering; 07/09/15.
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666 |
If you cannot drop a .224 bullet down a .228 barrel there is resistance. I would bet that bullet is swagged to the ID almost immediately. I never tried .224 bullets because I have had access to .228 bullets. I have tried .308 bullets in a variety of .303 barrels and some shot REALLY well. I kind of doubt that those that shot well had undersize bores.,
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,777 Likes: 1 |
gnoahh, another review from 1912 gives these stats for the 22HP:
Bullet diameter: .228 in. Diameter of barrel land to land: .219-.220 inch Groove to groove width: .226 in Depth of groove: .003 in Width of groove: .065 in Number of grooves: 6 Twist of rifling: 1 in 12 in
Townsend Whelen in his 1918 book, "The American Rifle: A Treatise, A Textbook And A Book Of Practical Information In The Use Of The Rifle", writes about the 22 Savage: Diameter of bullet: .228 inch Groove diameter of bore of rifle, about: .226 inch Depth of grooves: .003 inch Twist of rifling, one turn in: 12 inches
So it's not just Horace. Interesting numbers..
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2 |
Indeed. Curiouser and curiouser!
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,777 Likes: 1 |
Need more bores slugged and measured!
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,777 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,777 Likes: 1 |
I have never seen an AD for the 22Hps, a lot of the savage ads say High Power but it seems to always be for the 2503000, Im likeing the one on Ebay with the 303 and the Tiger tho! The tiger one is the best, but this was a 1912 ad for when they introduced them. "Twenty-three consecutive bulls in the 20 inch circle at 500 yards".
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1 |
Never have seen that one! do you have it? I have an extra 250-300 Ad with the gorilla, id trade for a nice 22Hp ad, just have to find it! the Ad in my avator is the only one of those that iv seen, just added the 303 tiger Ad with my ebay bucks cert.
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,522 Likes: 1 |
I wonder how close Mr. Rockefeller was to the buffalo. We used to kill cattle with a 22 long rifle. They were below us in a chute and we shot them in the back of the head at about 12". The article says he disposed of them. Makes me think he might have captured them first. Sorry, I'm skeptical of advertising.
wyo1895 With Savage never say never. For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you. [email protected]
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,326 Likes: 9 |
If you think the .224 bullets won't fit the bore, just drill them suckers out a touch at the back so they expand when the bang starts.
_______________________________________________________ An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2 |
Hmmm. Has anybody done that? With no ill effects? I can picture a lead core exposed at both ends maybe squirting out and leaving the jacket behind stuck in the barrel? Maybe farfetched. My imagination is working overtime this morning perhaps!
Anyone who uses .224's in a HP is certainly not doing anything overtly dangerous and should do so if they wish. (Just don't whine if you get carried away and shoot a bazillion of them and wind up eroding the throat excessively. Not saying it's guaranteed to happen, but why risk it with an irreplaceable 100 year old barrel.) It's just that with proper .228 bullets available from several sources there isn't an absolute need to use .224's.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,178
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,178 |
If you think the .224 bullets won't fit the bore, just drill them suckers out a touch at the back so they expand when the bang starts. Hummm, would that make it a Mini Mini-ball. Would look like an ittsy bittsy teeny weeny mini-ball, Joe.
I'm not greedy, I just want one of each.
Remember Ira Hayes
JoeMartin
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 494
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 494 |
Shot my scoped Savage 99 in 22 hp yesterday. Used factory ammo, the European stuff, 1 was Norma the other was Belloit??? At 25 yards, off of a rest, it was not very impressive. At that distance, off a bench, it should only punch ragged holes, but it would not keep them in a door-knob size circle. 2 would hit and almost touch, and then there would be a flyer, several times it would do this.
Barrel is nice and tight. 4x Weaver on a Stith mount.
Thoughts or suggestions?
Surely this gun can do better than this?
Gun is in excellent original condition, barrel and rifling are great, gun shows slight wear for its age, and it original.
Thanks for your input.
Bob
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666 |
You could try reloading, or it may just be your twist rate. I have 1-10 in mine and it shoots S&B factory ammo great.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1 |
Iv only shot a few of the S&B and Norma ammo and it seemed to be loaded Hot compared to old Rem. and Win.Ammo I have shot! Might try some hand loads or old factory stuff. the old green rem. factory ammo with the solfpoint, has been the most accrate stuff iv used and I have used it to take 2 deer!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 494
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 494 |
I have some Hornady.227 bullets, 70 grain spitzers. Have 6 or 7 unopened boxes of them I bought about 30 years ago. Should I use those or find some .228, or won't it really matter? Based on the comments above that .228 is mostly ideal and .224 will work ok, shouldn't the .227 be pretty good for this round?
Thanks for all the input. I have much to learn here.
Bob
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,731 Likes: 1 |
Yes the Hornady 227, 70 gr. will work fine, a friend on here told me to file the tip off them and they shoot even better!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,114 Likes: 2 |
Yeah, I avoid the Euro factory ammo like the plague. Even though they are loaded with excellent bullets, I never got good accuracy and case life sucked after firing- all due to their being loaded hot for use in "modern" European stalking rifles, IMO. I don't know what else to blame it on either, and also based on my limited test group of my personal guns. I know others get sterling results from Norma and S&B ammo. The last box of S&B ammo I had, I pulled the bullets and reloaded them with a mild charge of 3031 in other brass and got splendid accuracy.
Your Hornady .227s should do fine. Try them and if accuracy sucks, try shortening them by .1" to .150" and that should tighten up the groups. Some guys get decent accuracy with them as-is, some don't. Depends on the individual gun and how close to the standard the boys in the barrel department got them twisted on any given day. The nominal 1-12" twist is a tad too slow for optimal stabilization of those long Hornady spire points, but some barrels evidently got out with somewhat faster twists, dependent on the vagaries of the rifling process back then. Like I said, only one way to find out...
Last edited by gnoahhh; 07/13/15.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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