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AS said: How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one? The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about. Antelope Sniper, I know nothing of your worries but, particularly if you are an atheist, it is refreshing and even invigorating to see your above statement. Interesting that an atheist would be compelled to tell a Christian, maybe with some authority in his/her voice, that the Christian has a lot to worry about. It is refreshing and even invigorating to be reminded that I have no worries with regard to eternity and that there is nothing to be feared in this life on earth. No human mind/voice - no matter how presumptuously assertive - can affect that. Such peaceful freedom is precious beyond explanation. One of my hopes and wishes is that many others will seek, find and experience. What if you are wrong? What if you are wrong? Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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I love the outdoors and all it has to offer. However, when I enjoy the outdoors, or examine the night sky through a spotting scope, EVERYTHING I see can be explained by natural means without the need to invoke a creator. In general, this argument, depending on how it is made, falls under one of two fallacies, either the Argument from Ignorance, or the Argument from personal Incredulity.
Our world is amazing, wonderful and complex, but we can explain it all without invoking a creator.
Ironic and logical fallacy. Please read my earlier post in the Jesus Picture thread regarding the True Scotsman Fallacy. It seems to be a Christian favorite. Projectionism. Which is only a difference of opinion. Kent If I committed a logical fallacy, please name the specific fallacy, and explain where I am wrong. Explain the moment of life, it's inception and existence. Use facts and evidence that you possess, I'm glad there is finally someone who can explain it all. Kent What do you mean by "them moment of life". Would you please define that for me. You're boring me. Kent
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He also died for unbelievers, yet Christians are told to "come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them".
Yep, Christianity does a great job of creating in groups and out groups. It's always easier to dehumanize, exploit and murder an out group. Is it honest to imply that atheism doesn't? I find it weird that so many who are so convinced of that which cannot be proven (a negative, hence A-Theist) are so determined to prove the superiority of their position. I'm ok with you not believing. Frankly having observed your thoughts in political discussions here I probably agree with you far more on things aside from religion than I do with other Christians. I also find non-evangelical atheists to often be more like able than fundy Christians. Still... I scratch my head at the proseletyzing that goes on here by atheists. I know I'm biased, but I see it more on that side than from Christians. Either way I really honestly don't care what you don't believe in nor what of my beliefs you find dishonest. I mean all of this sincerely; not being snide nor trying to poison the well such as if I were to say that a position in a debate was fundamentally dishonest. But I digress. Peace to all of you! It's Friday!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What do you mean by "them moment of life". Would you please define that for me. You're boring me. Kent So you expect me to discuss something with you that you cannot even define?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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AS posted:
How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one?
The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about.”
This strikes me as being a very legitimate question. “How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?”
John 14:20 - Jesus speaking: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
Also, John 14:17-18 - Jesus speaking: “.....the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
There it is and it is simple. Once God has come to live within someone, they know it. They also begin to understand more about the truth.
TF
so, were humans (Adam & Eve) {24 hourcampfire is not responding}. true humans? I say they were. were they hybridized from space aliens and pre-human primates? I say they/we could have been. but, who's to know? what about this "truth" of which you speak? what does it tell you? can you share with the rank & file, or just quote scripture? inquiring minds would like to know. seriously, the Hebraic Tradition and the greek & egytian beliefs are so far apart that the twain shall never meet? Simply the truth about God, the world and our place in it. TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Are Atheists more honest than Christians? How could atheists possibly be more honest......when they don't know the TRUTH? I know I'm more likely to be [bleep] over by a 'Christian', that I know. You're more than welcome to an afterlife with Ken Howell and Ringman. Having been an atheist who was graciously pursued by a Christian man at one time, I'm glad that there are still people in this world who judge people in other groups as individuals. If people were to apply your standards, they might take you as all the proof they need that non-believers are all bitter, glass-half-empty pricks. Applying other logic than yours shows there are people like you from all different fath traditions  .
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AS posted:
How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one?
The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about.”
This strikes me as being a very legitimate question. “How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?”
John 14:20 - Jesus speaking: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
Also, John 14:17-18 - Jesus speaking: “.....the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
There it is and it is simple. Once God has come to live within someone, they know it. They also begin to understand more about the truth.
TF
And there are scriptures from a thousand other religions that would disagree with your little quote. Sure, but I was just helping explain why someone would NOT have to worry. How one may not worry. The answer is that some of us have had experiences that you have not yet had. Still simple. The "little" quote explains it quite well. TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values. And then you have the Timothy McVeighs and Terry Nichols of the world. ... and ISIS, Al Qaeda, Jim Jones, Saul Alinsky, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Attila, et al. What's your point? You're going to cite The Crusades next I suppose? Historically speaking, who has been perpetrated more mass genocide on this planet than any others ... I mean if we're talking sheer numbers? Religious people ... or non religious people? And what were the first steps to those non-religious people, those non-believers, the atheists ... what were their first steps undertaken before the mass genocides were perpetrated upon the people? As I mentioned before, Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was a seminary student and head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Hirohito was worshiped as a god in Japan. The Rwanda Genocide was the work of Catholics. The Kosovo genocide was done by Orthodox Serbs. The 1915-1923 Armenian, massacre, and the Assyrian and Greek massacres were carried out by Muslims, All of your central African genocides were committed by religious people of one flavor or another, either Christian of Muslim. Technically all Marxist are supposed to be atheist, but does not Marxism itself resemble a religion with people still pilgrimaging to worship at the tomb of Lennin? If you want good people to do bad things, that takes religion. So, maybe this goes off into a different direction? You state that Hitler was a Catholic. Do you think that makes him a Christian? I can call myself an ex NBA player but that does not make me one. Also, there is plenty of evil done in this world done without seeing "religion" as an excuse. TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He also died for unbelievers, yet Christians are told to "come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them".
Yep, Christianity does a great job of creating in groups and out groups. It's always easier to dehumanize, exploit and murder an out group. Is it honest to imply that atheism doesn't? I find it weird that so many who are so convinced of that which cannot be proven (a negative, hence A-Theist) are so determined to prove the superiority of their position. I'm ok with you not believing. Frankly having observed your thoughts in political discussions here I probably agree with you far more on things aside from religion than I do with other Christians. I also find non-evangelical atheists to often be more like able than fundy Christians. Still... I scratch my head at the proseletyzing that goes on here by atheists. I know I'm biased, but I see it more on that side than from Christians. Either way I really honestly don't care what you don't believe in nor what of my beliefs you find dishonest. I mean all of this sincerely; not being snide nor trying to poison the well such as if I were to say that a position in a debate was fundamentally dishonest. But I digress. Peace to all of you! It's Friday! EWF, There is nothing in my skepticism that says I must hate someone, or discriminate against someone because of their race, color, creed, or sexual orientation. Can you say the same about religions? In general Christians believe those with a different sexual orientation should not enjoy all the rights of others. Some Muslims feel it's acceptable to kill anyone who isn't their kind of Muslim. Mormon can have a very Us and Them mentality. Heck even the bible command to "love thy neighbor" is only a command to love other Jews. Some scholars propose the main reason for the strict Jewish dietary laws was to differentiate the Jews from the tribes around them, solidifying the in group/out group mentality. So yea, religions, including Judeo-Christianity are very good at creating in, and out groups.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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AS posted:
How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one?
The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about.”
This strikes me as being a very legitimate question. “How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?”
John 14:20 - Jesus speaking: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
Also, John 14:17-18 - Jesus speaking: “.....the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
There it is and it is simple. Once God has come to live within someone, they know it. They also begin to understand more about the truth.
TF
And there are scriptures from a thousand other religions that would disagree with your little quote. Sure, but I was just helping explain why someone would NOT have to worry. How one may not worry. The answer is that some of us have had experiences that you have not yet had. Still simple. The "little" quote explains it quite well. TF Using the Bible to prove the Bible is just circular reasoning, and proves nothing.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values. And then you have the Timothy McVeighs and Terry Nichols of the world. ... and ISIS, Al Qaeda, Jim Jones, Saul Alinsky, Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Attila, et al. What's your point? You're going to cite The Crusades next I suppose? Historically speaking, who has been perpetrated more mass genocide on this planet than any others ... I mean if we're talking sheer numbers? Religious people ... or non religious people? And what were the first steps to those non-religious people, those non-believers, the atheists ... what were their first steps undertaken before the mass genocides were perpetrated upon the people? As I mentioned before, Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was a seminary student and head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Hirohito was worshiped as a god in Japan. The Rwanda Genocide was the work of Catholics. The Kosovo genocide was done by Orthodox Serbs. The 1915-1923 Armenian, massacre, and the Assyrian and Greek massacres were carried out by Muslims, All of your central African genocides were committed by religious people of one flavor or another, either Christian of Muslim. Technically all Marxist are supposed to be atheist, but does not Marxism itself resemble a religion with people still pilgrimaging to worship at the tomb of Lennin? If you want good people to do bad things, that takes religion. So, maybe this goes off into a different direction? You state that Hitler was a Catholic. Do you think that makes him a Christian? I can call myself an ex NBA player but that does not make me one. Also, there is plenty of evil done in this world done without seeing "religion" as an excuse. TF Are you claiming Catholics are not Christian?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.
Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.
Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.
Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic?
Last edited by efw; 08/28/15. Reason: Ps
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Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values. Hillary was raised Methodist. She was a member of the Senate Prayer group, and regularly attends Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington. Vladimir Putin is a Russian Orthodox Christian. That pair belongs to you, not the Atheist. Antelope, none of those things make either of them a Christian. You mean they could be a Judas? I was sure the gal who worshipped Saul Alinsky was a top notch christian. Darn. Fooled me.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Not seein' much difference between some fundies who try to force their beliefs on others, and some atheists who try to force their beliefs on others.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.
Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.
Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.
Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic? Stalin was Russian Orthodox. Do not conflate communism with atheism. By definition, all communist are supposed to be atheist, but not all atheist are communist. In addition, as I've mentioned before, it's possible to make a good case that Marxism is a religion, as are other cults of personality.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Not seein' much difference between some fundies who try to force their beliefs on others, and some atheists who try to force their beliefs on others. The only "force" I'm using is the force of reason.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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AS posted:
How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one?
The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about.”
This strikes me as being a very legitimate question. “How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?”
John 14:20 - Jesus speaking: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
Also, John 14:17-18 - Jesus speaking: “.....the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
There it is and it is simple. Once God has come to live within someone, they know it. They also begin to understand more about the truth.
TF
And there are scriptures from a thousand other religions that would disagree with your little quote. Sure, but I was just helping explain why someone would NOT have to worry. How one may not worry. The answer is that some of us have had experiences that you have not yet had. Still simple. The "little" quote explains it quite well. TF Using the Bible to prove the Bible is just circular reasoning, and proves nothing. Seems that you either "don't get it" or are choosing not to understand. I was not using "the Bible to prove the Bible." TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values. Hillary was raised Methodist. She was a member of the Senate Prayer group, and regularly attends Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington. Vladimir Putin is a Russian Orthodox Christian. That pair belongs to you, not the Atheist. Antelope, none of those things make either of them a Christian. Who are you to say what does or does not constitute a Christian. If anything your are just making my point how most Christians think that all other Christians who are not exactly like them are going to hell. Instead of working to improve their own, once again, a Christian is just denying their own. I'm beginning to think the "true Scotsman Fallacy" is the Christian favorite.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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AS posted:
How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?
Out of all the tens of thousands of gods, and over 30 thousands sects of Christianity, how can you be so certain you've chose the correct one?
The Muslims, Hindu's, Mormans, and Catholics all believe that unless you believe exactly like they do, you are going to hell to be tormented forever. When you add it all up, you changes of guessing correctly are about 1/40,000, so mathematically, you do have a lot to worry about.”
This strikes me as being a very legitimate question. “How can you claim to have nothing to worry about?”
John 14:20 - Jesus speaking: “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
Also, John 14:17-18 - Jesus speaking: “.....the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”
There it is and it is simple. Once God has come to live within someone, they know it. They also begin to understand more about the truth.
TF
And there are scriptures from a thousand other religions that would disagree with your little quote. Sure, but I was just helping explain why someone would NOT have to worry. How one may not worry. The answer is that some of us have had experiences that you have not yet had. Still simple. The "little" quote explains it quite well. TF Using the Bible to prove the Bible is just circular reasoning, and proves nothing. Seems that you either "don't get it" or are choosing not to understand. I was not using "the Bible to prove the Bible." TF You quoted from the book of John, as if that was somehow supposed to impress me. 
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Ummm... Re-Read your post and then tell me you're not making an argument which puts you as an atheist 'in' (open minded and free of discriminatory bias) and religious folk 'out'.
Creation of in & out groups is a people thing sir; not religious.
Of course I constantly discriminate against green lights by driving right by them, vs red which I stop & stare at.
Ps- you do know that one of the most murdereous ideologies of the 20th century (Communism) was decidedly atheistic? Stalin was Russian Orthodox. Do not conflate communism with atheism. By definition, all communist are supposed to be atheist, but not all atheist are communist. In addition, as I've mentioned before, it's possible to make a good case that Marxism is a religion, as are other cults of personality. Do not conflate being baptized into a church with being a Christian. There are many baptized atheists, Stalin among them. The system of Communism is avowed in its atheism. Seems more honest to say that your original assertion is a generalization based upon your observations of history than to redefine historic facts to suit? And you failed to address the most fundamental flaw in your assertion which I demonstrated clearly. The assertion itself drew in & out lines. Again, it's a human thing not religious. We find all kinds of reasons to exclude and annihilate others. Religion is just one.
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