Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Big Game Rifle

Greetings to all,<P>I am trying to round out my rifle battery with a big game rifle. I am planning to get a brown bear hunt by 2003 and want so bad to make Africa by 2004 or 5 at the latest. The brown bear hunt could come sooner as my hunting buddy and I are contemplating hunting the Kamchatka Peninsula as he just returned from Russia on business with some information on coastal bear hunts there. <P>For African big game, I would be interested in eventually taking cape buff and lion. <P>I have a 338 Win Mag at present, I believe this chambering is quite suitable for inland grizz, but pushing it when it comes to big brown bears. I also have a 444 Marlin, and loaded with 305 grain Cor-Bon solids or Beartooth 330 grain cast gas checks, would no doubt cut quite a hole in any bear inside 200 yards, but I need a larger bore bolt gun too.<P>Keep in mind that I'm looking for an economical bolt action rifle and probably an offering from Ruger, Win, or Rem.<P>So heres my question, would I be better served skipping the 375 H&H or Ultra (The 375 Ultra looks pretty potent on paper) and moving to a 416 Rem or Rigby? <P>I have not really considered any .458s (Win or Lott) in this equation, as I think they are essential equipment for the PH on a DG hunt. I see no need to stoke 500 grain bullets as a hunter, but can surely see my PH using them to back me up. I see no need to increase any recoil above the 416 Rem and see a 400 grain bullet being plenty capable. Am I wrong in this thinking? <P>I know the 416 Rem or Rigby is a bit much for brown bear, but is it the best compromise when considering large African game too. <P>I really want to buy only one so called "DG" or "Big Game" rifle that extends my battery to game described above. <P>So what do you guys think is a wise choice? <P>Thanks,<BR>~rossi~

Rossi:<P>I recently had a similar dilemma, but my deal is that I had a .300 Winchester already and wondered if I should skip the .338 WinMag and go to the .375 H&H.<P>I considered and almost bought a .338 RUM, but eventually, I went with the .375. I'm happy.<P>In your case, since you already have the .338, I would go for the .416 in a Model 70. With a .338 Win and a .416 Rem, you can hunt the world.<P>I'll be honest, though, I've really taken a liking to the .375 H&H. I'm glad I have it instead of the .338 WinMag.<P>Go for the .416!<P>Rick

Rossi, I'm looking to do the same thing you are. I need to round out my rifle battery with a larger caliber rifle. I found these CZ 550 rifles at Gunbroker. They're controlled round feed and are available in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, and 458 Win. I'm thinking of buying one in 9.3x62 to use as an Elk rifle, just to have something a little different than everyone else. They are nice looking rifles. I've got a 444 Marlin too and it's great for shots out to 150 yards or so but you never know when you will need to make that 250 yard shot. I don't have any experience with Brown Bears or African game but I hope to change that in a few years if I can.:^} I don't know if this is what your looking for but I thought I'd post the link anyway. ATB Greg<P> <A HREF="http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=1757585" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=1757585</A>

Rossi, if you can handle the recoil difference go with the .416. There is very little you can do with a .375 that a .338 won't do and there is no such thing as overkill on Dangerous Game, especially in Africa. <P>You will have the perfect combination for a DG/Plains game hunt- the .338 for larger plains game such as Eland, Kudu, etc... and a real "stopper" in the .416 for the nasty biters and bruisers.<P>In the CZ's the .416's are very affordable and built well, from all the reports I have been reading on the different forums. A Winchester would also be nice, but then you are looking at a custom job. Great choices!- Sheister

WV,<P>I forgot about the CZ. It is a very fine action in its own right. I have read that it is perhaps the best modified Mauser action on the market. The CRF is smooth along with other up dated features. I have also read, and this would not be gospel, that the Brno design is essentially a CZ. It seems that the Brno plant was really a CZ plant prior to Soviet occupation. Perhaps someone here has the exact history lowdown. <P>I think its a class act action w/very good hammer forged barrel. In the states you can get some real good deals on the 550 in 270 and 30-06. My friend is an FFL dealer and some catalogs I've seen have the CZ550 (270-30-06) at $359.00 to the dealer. Its rare to see them offer 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 Win in these catalogs.<P>I really like the Rem Custom Safari in 416 Rem Mag (I know, no CRF). This rifle has the KS stock (which I think someone here said is McMillan) 22" matched stainless barrel w/.82 inch contour. Its a real bruiser. I like the 22" barrel, as I think any added length is a waste in howitzers.<P>I have read that the synthetic stock and stainless setup for Africa is not terribly necessary, as some think. Maybe JJ or Ray can chime in on that. I think its much more a necessity in Alaska.<P>Hey Rick, the 375 H&H is one hell of a cartridge, and I have not entirely dismissed it. But as you have said, I have the 338 Win so I need to think about leap frogging into the .40s.<P>Sheister, I'm with you on the 416. I can get the Ruger Express Magnum for around $1200, the Win Model 70 Classic Safari Express at around $800, the Rem African Safari at about $1300. I'm guessing the CZ through my FFL dealer would be around $800-900. <P>I am not terribly recoil shy thanks to my friend Don who has me squezzing his 338-378 Wby and 50-140 Sharps at the range. He just likes to get a good laugh at the contorted facial expressions I make. I got news, nobody shoots a 600 grain 50-140 sharps without a contorted facial expression [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img].<P>It appears the 416s shoot plenty flat at 250 yards, what more do you need?<P>Take Care <BR>~rossi~

Rossi,<BR>News flash, most PH's I know, carry a .375 because of ammo cost and availability. For the most part, they cant find/afford .458 or any significant quantity of the double calibers.<P>Winchester does make a .416 Rem in their lineup, and we see them at shows for around $900 or so..<P>... and much as I hate to give him credit, Sheister is right, when it comes to African DG, their is no such thing as too much rifle..

Rossi, From the perspective of a guy who has hunted all the game you have an interest in (professionally) I would suggest you get a 375HH and shoot the heck out of it. You will carry this gun while hunting much more then you will shoot it so a light rifle will be a huge benifit. Yet you do not want to shoot an 8.5 pound 416 mag for hundreds if not thousnads of rounds of pracitce. <P>I have never seen a single animal escape a well placed 375HH bullet. Every one has died and been found. A bad shot from much bigger guns has resulted in many lost animals. The ability to surgically place a 375HH bullet because you have hours and hours of practice with it is a far greater benifit then the additional power you will get from a 416 that you have had much less practice with.<P>The other thing to consider is that every skiff and pickup truck you will be in in Alaska will likely have 375HH ammo in it, so will every safari camp you visit. The main problem with the 416 is that there are to many versions and finding what you want in remote places is not likely.<P>When you said a 416 may be a bit of over kill for Brownies that surprised me. A big brown bear will be equal in weight to an Average cape buffalo and much quicker on their feet. Over the years I have had an average of three shots per brownie to keep them down. Oddly enough that is about the same as the Cape buffalo! There is nothing less dangerous about brownies then African game nor are they any easier to keep down. I guess from my perspective I have seen many more tense and dangerous problems with bears then buffalo. Granted I worked guiding bears for over 20 years and have worked as a PH in Africa for a much shorter time. <P>One well placed shot from an easy to shoot 375HH is far better then anything bigger that is off the mark. Your second shot will also be WAY faster using the 375 then the 416. Of the cape buffalo I have shot for my personal hunting, all have been taken with a 375HH and 300 grian A frames. All died in short order and two were dropped in there tracks with shoulder/ spine shots.<P>Your correct that the PH will have a bigger gun. My 458 Lott is under construction as I type this!jj

JJ, <P>As usual, you make very excellent points. I am looking for a rifle that I can be very proficient with. I consider myself to have good shooting techniques and do practice a great deal. In fact, tomorrow I'm heading to the range with some neww 444 Marlin loads. I have no doubt that I could achieve good accuracy with 375 H&H and manage it well, however, having only experience with taking elk, deer and antelope, with chamberings of of 270 Win, 308 Win, 338 Win and 444 Marlin, I'm in unchartered waters on this one.<P>Having the 338 Win in tow prompted the thought of moving into the .40s. For the exact same reasons you gave about the 375 H&H, it's manageability and accuracy, those are the reasons I went to the 338 Win instead of the 340 Wby. I am in full agreement that first and formost, placement is key.<P>The crack about the 416 being a bit much for browns comes from to much reading and information from writers and hunters (not Guides or PHs). They always profess that the 375 H&H is more than enough for any NA game animal. And in the context of good shooting, it probably is.<P>I would be inclined to agree with your take on Alaskan browns. I have seen photos of 10 foot beasts that weigh in at 1500 lbs. Thats 3 times the size of a lion and considerably more of a handful.<P>When would you recommend a 416 class cartridge be used, if at all? <P>With a proper placed shot, how much better is the 416 at dropping big game? <P>Is the chambering more suitable to a PH, just as the .458s are and simply not really necessary? <P>In your experience do most hunters bring a lot more gun than they can shoot? <P>And lastly, not to start an all out debate because I have read them before, CRF vs. PushFeed, what are your thoughts for a 375 H&H?<P>Sorry about being so inqusitive.<P>In the end, accuracy is paramount with me and I will probably go with what you have suggested, thats why I posted here.<P>Thanks, <BR>~rossi~

You guys are kicking around some points to ponder. The .375 enjoys universal avialability and is recognized performer. However, if I were to get .416, I'd take a hard look at the .416 Taylor. BW would be the go-to guy about this chambering. It interests me because of its shorter overall lenght while still providing the .416 punch. The down side, for the traveling hunter, would be the lack of back up ammo if the first line stuff were to be lost. Rossi, all you would have to do is rebarrel your Winny and you are off to the races.pak

The 416 ia a dandy rifle. I like it, and it is a solid performer. I think it exceeds the recoil threshold of the majority of people for high volume shooting. That is the down side. If you can shoot a 416 as often and as many shots as a 375HH then it is clearly better for the biggest game. I personally shoot my 375 30-40 times at a session and sometimes only wear a "T" shirt. I could not do that with a 416 NO WAY!<P>The Remington chambering is far and away the most popular chambering and I would not even consider anything but that if I had to buy one. It is the only one your likely to ever find ammo for in a remote location. <P>The difference between them on big game with similiar shots is not noticably different. If you shoot a deer in the chest with a 30/06 or a 338 at 50 yards they both run off, shoot them both through the shoulders they both go down. same when comparing the 375 and the 416. Where the 416 has an advantage is in Elephant, rhino, hippo, and Texas heart shot buffalo. It is bigger and as fast with heavier bullets. <P>I hear people say all the time "if you can handle the 375HH then you can handle the 416" <P>Well lets digest this for a moment. That would seem to me that if you could handle the 416 then you should handle the 458 lott, and if you can handle the 458 lott then you should handle the 460 weatherby, and if you can handle that theen the 577 tyranasaur should be no problem.<P>Well the fact is there is a point of concentration breakdown due to recoil, and that is usually at the 375HH. It is typically the most power you can have for your recoil investment. <P>If your one of the lucky ones that likes the 416's recoil go for it. For me precise accuracy from a easy to shoot gun with plenty of power is better. I'll take the 375HH with a great scope and good handloads every time.jj

Rossi we are both, somwhat, in the same position. I have a 3006,and a .338 win, and I too wish to hunt DG "buffalo" in the near future.<P> I am going to give you somehwhat different advise tho and tell you NOT to buy a rifle at this time, especially if your RH'ed. I dont give this advice easily, it never took much of a reason to hold me back from buying a rifle and , for me, reason's to buy it were always kept in my front pocket by the hundreds. I bet I have 197 reason's to buy every rifle ever made, thats 197 for "each" rifle.<P> But I do have one Africa trip under my belt and being able to return, or say return to Canada, is even more important to me then buying a new rifle. I would love a brand spanking new DG rifle ; I salivate and dribble all over my keyboard when JJHack tells me about the new .458 Lott he is building. That damn .458 has ruined 3 keyboards for me already and I am prepareing a Bill for Jim.<P> But unless your are a millionaire you lost the urgent reason to buy that DG rifle when you picked up your .338 Win. On this side of the Pond there is NO! reason to buy anything bigger then the .338. With a 24" tube you can push a 250grn A-frame up to 2700 fps, the Fed HE loads, with the 250 grn TBBC, goes 2800 fps or more. Is a specific DG rifle really needed now ?<P> Im a lefty so I always have to keep an eye out for a specific rifle if I want it. Buying a reasonable LH DG rifle is like finding Hen's teeth but even then what good is a rifle if I dont have the money to take it hunting with me ?<P> Take the .338 Win brown bear hunting with you. Buy the big DG rifle if you absolutely need it , but , if your going for plains game the first time you wont need anything but that .338. Take the "new rifle money" and put it in the "hunting fund".<P> I want to find a LH Winchester in .375 and rechamber to .416R or .458Lott. Yes the .375 is a fine load but I really like big rifles that have real big holes in the end.....best of luck to you.........10

I don't know anything about hunting bears nor dangerous game, but I would agree 100% with 10Point about the .338 Magnum for hunting in North America, specially if 250-grain and heavier bullets (up to the 300 grainers) are used on the largest game. A heavy bullet out of the .338 magnum or the .375 H&H will penetrate just about the same, so the difference will be left to "shot placement."

10PT & Ray, <P>You both make good points about sticking with the 338 Win for NA game (bear) and saving some coin. But I have to tell you, I remember full and well the discussion we had a month or so ago on StevePP's "300 Mag who needs one" thread.<P>I made quite a few statements regarding the 338s abilities and I still have no doubts about them. I do remember full and well what JJ stated on that thread to me and it stuck in my mind. I believe he said, and this is paraphrasing, "...one gets into trouble when they believe certain chamberings can adequately be used and stretched to fill gaps on large game, the 300s won't do what the 338s do and the 338s won't do what the 375 does...", also, regarding large bears he said, "a 338 is just fine, a 375 is just in case". <P>I think there is merit in those statements and I know some may argue and take exception with them, but speaking for myself, I was pretty swayed by them.<P>Thats what got me thinking about the 416s in the first place, I just assumed bolt action .40s were better choices and their performance was needed when persuing large DG (Alaskan or African).<P>Putting it now into perspective, the 375 H&H appears to adequately fill all the gaps for the aformentioned game that I would be interested in. It seems to be one of those extremely versitle chambers, not altogether to large to smack a deer with and not to small to drop brownies and cape buff. Guess that why its still religiously used throughout the world after almost 90 years. Must work pretty good.<P>In the realm of seeking a new rifle, how many of us need our arms twisted anyway? These days, there are a lot of good factory rifles to choose from chambered in the 375 H&H. <P>Thanks to all, <BR>~rossi~

Rossi and others;<P>There is something that seems to go un-noticed or maybe it is noticed just unspoken when we hear that a cartridge has been around X amount of years and is still doing so well. <P>The original Factory ballistics of the 30/06 and the 300HH were not even close, that is why the 300HH was such a fantastic plains game rifle in it's day. Even the big bullet man Elmer Kieth was amazed by it's fantastic performance on sheep, and other game at very long range. He hated the 30/06 too!<P>Today the 30/06 easily outperforms the original factory 300HH ballistics during its "heyday" in Afrcia. By the same token the 375HH with new powders and bonded core bullets is easily twice the gun is was in the early 1900's when its fame was created. <P>If it was able to do what was needed for Pro Hunters when game was endless and shooting buffalo's was like shooting groundhogs in Wyoming think about the vast improvment of the current loads we have today. <P>Get a copy of a John Taylor book and see what he wrote about killing over 3000 buffalo with the 375HH and the original ballistics it had. Think about what it would be like today with our current line up of new powders and bullets!jj

Rossi- check around a little on those CZ-550 prices. They are going for around $550 in GA.<P>Mike

ROR,<P>The CZ is a very interesting rifle, mostly because of it's history and it's supurb action. As I posted earlier in this thread, the link between CZ and Brno are very real, in fact, they are one in the same.<P>Ceska Zbrojovka a.s. Uhersky Brod, (CZUB) Czech Republic was established in 1936 in Czechoslovakia. After WWII the Firearms manufacturers were managed by a single central agency which required that any firearm exported from their factory would bare the BRNO markings", this is why there are a great deal of CZ Uhersky Brod firearms with BRNO markings.<P>In fact, the CZ550 Magnum Safari Rifle, chambered in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 458 Win wears the world renowned Brno 602 action. The Brno 602 is a very excellent modified Mauser action used on many DG rifles in the 1940s to the 1990s.<P>I believe JJ's 458 Lott is being built on a Brno action. At least thats what he was once contemplating early on. Hey JJ, we know the chambering, give us the rest of the mouth watering details (action, barrel length, stock, etc).<P>The CZ550 Safari ia a beaut, with turkish walnut and a host of old euro flavor. The only downside is its weight at 9.3 lbs. I can see it for the big mags and African usage, but thats a little heavy for a 375 H&H that could be lugged around Alaska or the Rockies.<P>Weatherby offers around 5 affordable and interesting sporters from 7.5-8 lbs in the 375 H&H. Rem, Win, and Ruger also participate in that chambering with several offerings as well. Years back, a 375 H&H was almost a special order from these manufactures. <P>Got to go, time to salivate some more on these offerings.<P>Best of Luck,<BR>~rossi~

I agree with you, JJ, about the new powders. I will add that new bullets and new powders have not only helped the .375 H&H, but so all the other cartridges. The same can be said about certain cartridge improvements, to include the RUM and a whole bunch of others.<P>One simple example is Federal HE ammo for the .375 H&H; this ammo is also available for the .338, .300 Magnum, .338 Magnum, etc. <P>In Alaska where I live, the most popular cartridges are the .30-06, .300 Magnum, and the .338 Magnum. The fact is that most Alaska hunters use these calibers to hunt moose, caribou, and other game. Most Alaska hunters are not hunting just bears, specially brown or Kodiak. Yes, the bears are there where we hunt moose and other game, and every now and then those are killed with the cartridges I mentioned above. But the majority of hunters are not hunting the big bears.<P>My point is that if I was only going to hunt bears and I had a .338 Magnum, the .375 H&H would not be my idea of a step up. Instead, I would get a bigger gun, perhaps one of the .416's.

Rossi; I managed to get lucky and find a model 70 classic blued action for my Lott. The 550 is Ok but the safety is backwards from the Model 70 and since that is where my experience and comfort is at, I felt the Mod 70 was a better choice. It will have a pac-nor barrel(22") and a laminated stock. I have not made a final decision on the sights but it will have a rear peep, not open rear sights. There will be a barrel band swivel, and a detatchable muzzle break with a thread protector. I hate muzzle breaks but for sighting and practice purposes it may actually be a practical option. <P>When in a "practice" situation you have the luxury of proper hearing protection and lots of time. When hunting(working) the thread protector will be on and then no worries about excess noise. <P>I know the POI might be different with, and without the device but this is a 100 yard gun and probably more like 25-50 yards most of the time. I doubt the Muzzle break will have any noticable effect on trajectory at those ranges!jj

when you are speaking of "loading up" a rifle to hotter ballistics, keep in mind that effect of tropical heat on pressures. That nice smooth extraction at 80 degrees, will be a whole different deal at 95 degrees...<P>and JJ, I built my 450 Ackley on a M70 factory 458 gun, and it works just fine too... I saw a few Winchester custom shop rifles at the previous SCI show, and they weren't any better than mine, and they cost an extra $1000 to boot!

Rossi- I have the CZ 550 Magnum in .375H&H and really like it. It is heavy enough to tame the recoil. It has express sights with 2 folding leafs for 200 and 300 meters. A set trigger which is about 12 ozs. The bolt is easily disassembled for cleaning. The barrel is 25 inches long. I have been very pleased with the gun. The .375H&H ammo is a good bit cheaper than the .416 and easier to find. Good shooting. Bob