|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
http://news.yahoo.com/police-fire-84-shots-man-233124390.html..so much for 9mm being accurate, effective and easy to shoot well. That said one to the calf did bring the guy down.
Last edited by RJM; 09/06/15.
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Glocks are fine weapons as they normally come from the factory, but NYPD orders them with extra heavy trigger pulls. Their hit ratio is little wonder when you add that factor into the equation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Training is a lot of it
It's been quite a while but I remember the average rounds fired during the academy for NYPD was something like 150-200
I have a G22 with a NY+ trigger in it and it isn't tough to shoot accurately at all
Last edited by gitem_12; 09/06/15.
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,195 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,195 Likes: 7 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Yeah, and I'm sure the average NYPD cop is an avid shooter/hunter........bawhwhwhwhwhwaah
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269 |
Bill and Jim were extremely aberrational for NYPD. We always said it was easy to tell if a guy got shot by NYPD.....powder burns....
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
Glocks are fine weapons as they normally come from the factory, but NYPD orders them with extra heavy trigger pulls. Their hit ratio is little wonder when you add that factor into the equation. The NY Tigger excuse just don't cut it... Dallas PD only had DA revolvers and semi-autos that triggers pulls were all longer and harder than a NY Glock but yet we managed a 85+% hit rate. And least you think all people from Texas were natural shooters 80% of the officers hired were from states other than Texas... It all comes down to training and attitude...Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
Bill and Jim were extremely aberrational for NYPD. They were excellent for any location. Bill never missed a shot in a gun fight, that is remarkable.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
Werent they members of an elite team? I used to train with a New York City transit cop, and he told me that they had a policy of encouraging frequent training, even providing unlimited practice ammo, and their hit to miss ratio in gun fights was far superior to that of regular NYPD.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,150
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,150 |
I believe they were members of the "Stakeout" squad. Supposedly hand-picked because of their ability to shoot well, fast, and accurately. Perhaps, they worked under a more progressive Chief. Progressive isn't a bad word when it comes to changing dogma concerning upgrading tactics.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ That's brilliant, ain't it?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
They should probably come up with a way to lock the magazine in place. You only have one magazine, and that can't be removed from the weapon. Additionally, 1/2 dozen blanks are scattered randomly in the magazine.
That might help them even more.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ Before moving to Florida thirteen years ago, I was a Long Islander. Around qualifications time every year, the outdoor handgun range where I did much of my shooting would become rich with NYPD cops trying to prepare. They were generally awful shots with their service weapons, and had little interest in firearms. In fact, the NYPD psych evaluators would eliminate anyone from the applicant list who revealed an interest in firearms or hunting. I remember one such cop at the range shooting next to me who said the reason my groups were a small fraction the size of his was that he was required to use a double action only S&W Model 59 (a permitted alternative to a Glock), and I was shooting a 1911, which has a "hair trigger." I asked to shoot his gun and produced a group half his size, while shooting twice as fast as he was. The guy's jaw dropped. If you like to shoot, you get good. Otherwise, not so much.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,813
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,813 |
I used to shoot at a range and one guy would come and he would always have a mountain of .45 Gold Dots he would shoot. One day just making conversation I asked him if he had a magic well he pulled all those Gold Dots out of. Told me he was a cop (for a large city near me) and the Dept gave every officer X number of rounds to practice on their own with. Said most of the other officers weren't "Gun Guys" so they gave their ammo to him. I was stunned he openly admitted that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
If that is true NYPD should go back to revolvers...the people and their property would be much safer...
But NYPD isn't alone...for whatever reason it seems that those who make it to the top regardless of department have anti-gunfigher attitudes... They are more interested in politics and keeping their position than keeping their men alive...
We had the same problem in Dallas. Back before I joined the department a robbery squad was formed after several clerks at Stop&Robs were murdered. The squad was REAL effective killing a bunch of bad guns in just a few months...and robberies went down 75%...so what did the powers that be do...peed their panties and disbanded the squad...shortly robberies were back up again... They had another squad that were doing street robberies while I was there. They killed several the first two weekends and the squad was shut down...just too effective for pantie wearers...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
I used to shoot at a range and one guy would come and he would always have a mountain of .45 Gold Dots he would shoot. One day just making conversation I asked him if he had a magic well he pulled all those Gold Dots out of. Told me he was a cop (for a large city near me) and the Dept gave every officer X number of rounds to practice on their own with. Said most of the other officers weren't "Gun Guys" so they gave their ammo to him. I was stunned he openly admitted that. ..yep...give them back the empties to be turned back in and all is right with the world...
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
To be fair, other reports indicate both the perp and officers were mobile throughout most of the gunfight.
Running targets aren't exactly easy to connect with.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,378
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,378 |
Does the words "Spray and Pray" ring a bell? I think Jeff Cooper is spinning in his grave muttering something like I told you so...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
To be fair, other reports indicate both the perp and officers were mobile throughout most of the gunfight.
Running targets aren't exactly easy to connect with.
Travis Can't be, cops are all schitty shots. We hear it here all the time from folks who shoot paper alot that never miss
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
I used to shoot at a range and one guy would come and he would always have a mountain of .45 Gold Dots he would shoot. One day just making conversation I asked him if he had a magic well he pulled all those Gold Dots out of. Told me he was a cop (for a large city near me) and the Dept gave every officer X number of rounds to practice on their own with. Said most of the other officers weren't "Gun Guys" so they gave their ammo to him. I was stunned he openly admitted that. Not uncommon I can't even count how many 45 rounds I have cause the guys gave it to me. Same goes for 357 Sig ammo We got 300 rounds of duty ammo and 1200 round of range ammo yearly. If we needed more we just asked
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I believe more than 600 rounds were fired by uniformed personnel in the North Hollywood shootout.
Based on everything I have read, round counts tend to climb when people run and shoot back.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
I believe more than 600 rounds were fired by uniformed personnel in the North Hollywood shootout.
Based on everything I have read, round counts tend to climb when people run and shoot back.
Travis I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying that according to "experts" here who never miss the paper target they shoot at. Cops are all bad shots
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ Before moving to Florida thirteen years ago, I was a Long Islander. Around qualifications time every year, the outdoor handgun range where I did much of my shooting would become rich with NYPD cops trying to prepare. They were generally awful shots with their service weapons, and had little interest in firearms. In fact, the NYPD psych evaluators would eliminate anyone from the applicant list who revealed an interest in firearms or hunting. I remember one such cop at the range shooting next to me who said the reason my groups were a small fraction the size of his was that he was required to use a double action only S&W Model 59 (a permitted alternative to a Glock), and I was shooting a 1911, which has a "hair trigger." I asked to shoot his gun and produced a group half his size, while shooting twice as fast as he was. The guy's jaw dropped. If you like to shoot, you get good. Otherwise, not so much. To be fair how much of NYC'S population are "Gun people" I've often wondered if it isn't so much that lots of cops aren't "gun" people, but more that shooting becomes too much of a reminder of work and most guys find a hobby that puts them as far away from the job as possible
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
To be fair how much of NYC'S population are "Gun people"
I've often wondered if it isn't so much that lots of cops aren't "gun" people, but more that shooting becomes too much of a reminder of work and most guys find a hobby that puts them as far away from the job as possible
Could very well be.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
It'd be so much simpler if everyone else here was a reserve green Beret
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,019 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,019 Likes: 10 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ That's brilliant, ain't it? The only next logical step would be to take their handguns away entirely. It worked so well for the British "Bobbies"? RIGHT??? At least, if you took their handguns away from the NYCPD, the general law abiding population would be safer. The article makes no mention of where those 84 slugs all eventually landed.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ That's brilliant, ain't it? The only next logical step would be to take their handguns away entirely. It worked so well for the British "Bobbies"? RIGHT??? At least, if you took their handguns away from the NYCPD, the general law abiding population would be safer. The article makes no mention of where those 84 slugs all eventually landed. You must be one of the guys who never misses his stationary paper target
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 927
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 927 |
To be fair how much of NYC'S population are "Gun people"
I've often wondered if it isn't so much that lots of cops aren't "gun" people, but more that shooting becomes too much of a reminder of work and most guys find a hobby that puts them as far away from the job as possible
Could very well be. That's exactly what I am told by the blue I know. One has told me that drawing their gun is the absolute last resort because of the avalanche of 'ish that ensues...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
To be fair how much of NYC'S population are "Gun people"
I've often wondered if it isn't so much that lots of cops aren't "gun" people, but more that shooting becomes too much of a reminder of work and most guys find a hobby that puts them as far away from the job as possible
Could very well be. That's exactly what I am told by the blue I know. One has told me that drawing their gun is the absolute last resort because of the avalanche of 'ish that ensues... Pretty much There were scores of people I delay with that I would have been completely justified in shooting, but didn't Likely that way for 99.9% of cops. Contrary to what cursor and company want you to believe
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,980
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,980 |
Not all New York City cops are bad shots, But most are. My brother was a New York City police officer from 1982 to 2006. 18 of those years he was a detective, Street crime unit, Robbery squad, homicide unit, joint terrorist task force. He worked Brooklyn North, East Flatbush ( West Indians The original Jamaican posses ) he was involved in seven shootouts on the books, out of seven he had four hits three DOA. they were all up close and personal. A running gun fight is totally different then a static gunfight. They were all with revolvers, Smith & Wesson model 10 and colt detective special. he always carried two guns. In 92 he was issued a Glock 19 but he still carried his Colt detective special in his waistband ( Mexican Carry). when he knew he was going after a bad guy he always carried his model 10 he shot it better than the 19 and you could always use it as a club, which he did frequently! You can't do that with a 19. there are so many circumstances involved, some days you have a good day some days you have a bad day:)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,019 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,019 Likes: 10 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ That's brilliant, ain't it? The only next logical step would be to take their handguns away entirely. It worked so well for the British "Bobbies"? RIGHT??? At least, if you took their handguns away from the NYCPD, the general law abiding population would be safer. The article makes no mention of where those 84 slugs all eventually landed. You must be one of the guys who never misses his stationary paper target You seem to have a bit of difficulty recognizing the sarcasm in the first two lines of my previous post. First off, any criticism is aimed squarely at the Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and the rest of the policy makers. They set the tone for the Dept. They discourage the rank and file from becoming proficient with the tools of their trade. That said, whatever your trade may be, if it involves tools which deliver deadly force, it behooves one to become proficient with that tool. If you drive a truck, you better drive it in a manner which does not endanger the public. If you work in medicine you better do your job, so that you do not cause harm to your patients. And if you carry a gun on your hip, one would think you should have a moral imperative to learn to use it in a manner which is safe to the general public. Even if management should discourage such a mindset. As to the last paragraph of my post, I will let you attempt to tell us that cops poorly trained in marksmanship never hit an innocent bystander when attempting to shoot a felon. Does not a NYCPD shooter OWN that bullet until it comes to its final resting place? While I have never been involved in combat, I am a smart enough hunter to hold my fire until I have a very high likelihood of hitting my target, and to ensure that I have a safe back stop. It seems that is a mindset which would work well in police work, if not military combat where suppressive fire is a common tactic.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669 |
Nice to have somebody like RJM here to tell us how it really is being a cop.
I understand that no Kalifornia police agency will hire anyone who has been in any of the military special forces units. LAPD and other departments will not hire ex Marines.
Why ? They have been deemed "too aggressive" and "too prone to shoot."
When I was in high school and going to college, there was no interest in CCW by private citizens. If you went to a range to shoot, everybody shot at 25 and 50 yds. at the handgun ranges.
Nowadays, guys like me, who like to shoot at "long" ranges like 15 and 25 yds. are regarded as odd. That's because everybody practices at 7-10 yds.
When I was in my teens and 20's, all of the sporting goods stores sold guns. None of them had bars on their windows and alarms.
Nowadays, in the San Fransico Bay Area, there are very few gun stores. And all of them are heavily fortified.
Nice. This is what "change" has done for us. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
Yes, it does sound like a very "mobile" gun fight but if you saw some of the pictures there were a lot of holes in parked cars. NYC isn't the desert, regardless of the incoming fire, which will take an act of God to hit you, suppression fire in a city just isn't a good idea.
Anyone know how long the incident lasted?
As I have said in some other posts, gun fighting isn't an "ability", it is an attitude. You don't have to be a super shooter to be a gun fighter and I have known some super shooters who were not. 99% of the officers I knew who had been in gun fights were not "gun people" and rarely practiced between qualifications. But they had the attitude so when the time came they didn't fall apart or run...they stood and took care of the job without injuring anyone else...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
Allard was the 1982 National Civilian Pistol Champion; Cirillo shot and competed in PPC for training. Both were initially recruited from the ranks of the NYPD Pistol Team. Allard was the firearms/tactics instructor for the SOU and personally selected each candidate, based on his scores shooting the old Police "L" course, which is fired one-handed with a revolver. As far as the hit ratio on suspects go, this one was somewhat low, as it was a running gun battle with the suspect shooting back (makes a difference sometimes). All the cops fired one magazine at the suspect. All were sure of their background. The NYPD hit ratio overall has been rising steadily over the last few years; aberrations like this shooting will occur, despite all the calls for "more training" by the uninformed. The NYPD range at Rodman's Neck outside the Bronx is going 24-7, qualifying 35,000 cops (2 times yearly). Also included is shotgun and subgun work, plainclothes qual, academy students, gun repair, bomb detail, etc. Juggling the equivalent of more than two Army infantry divisions that need to train constantly is quite a logistical feat. Police work doesn't revolve around gun-handling skills; it's important, but only a small portion of doing a good job and finishing your tour in one piece and your career intact. Two or three points that most don't consider, or care about: 1. In a real gunfight, you don't pick your "scenario", unlike most of the shooters here at their weekly range practice. 2. Lots of rounds available in a gunfight is always good; you keep shooting until the bad guy gives up or dies. You take the shot you're offered, good or bad. Two of the cops in this shooting were highly experienced distinguished marksmen. Good shooters don't always win the day with a well-executed head shot from 50 meters. 3. No one but the suspect was injured; it was a good day for the citizens, cops and the NYPD. Cops won. This incident will be analyzed and critiqued all the way up to Chief level. Lessons will be learned and implemented. That's how it's done in a large organization. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 09/07/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
a long time ago, in a different life and age, i use to shoot against/with all kinds of popo, from highway patrol, county, city, etc. And i was exposed to training per the respective agencies. Some of it kept me snickering. On the county we practiced exercises out to about 50yards. Highway patrol thought a long range shot was ten yards.
We were all using revolvers too, which dates me.
There were some real good pistolero's, most not so much.
What was funny was a number of years later my wife was taking a ccw renewal course which had life fire. She is just a little class A retentive about stuff like this. She was complaining about her groups, having outshot almost all firing that day, and the instructor who was a LT on the county s.o., came up and said he wished half his men could shoot as well as she could.
We didn't at the time, even then, just shoot at paper targets. There were sessions of all kinds of live fire.
I could buy ammo for about 1.50 a box of 38specials, and it wasn't unusual to burn up 500 to 1000 rounds a month. I wasn't the only one doing that.
I wonder how many today do that. I have seen some practice targets punched by some of the local county's guys, i thought they were using a shotgun.
What that story tells me is lack of training, training, and more training and firearms proficiency.
RJM reminded me of an instructo i had, who had faced down more than a few. He said an awful lot of it was attitude, and being able to control the nerves. If you got into it, you had to assume you were going to leak blood, but you were going to win at any cost. The ones that mostly got my attention were not very loud, but were soft spoken men. They just knew what they were doing.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 09/07/15.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
All I know is less training is seldom the right approach to anything.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
there are a couple of guys on here that like to shoot bunnies with 1911's. My dad was a county guy way back when. He used to like to pop running jack rabbits, also use to practice shooting the heads off quail. With a handgun.
I have a habit upon seeing popo to look at what they are carrying. I remember running into a cochise county deputy a few years ago down south, and he was packing this weathered ol 1911. I told him i figured he probably knew how to use it, as apposed to one of the new hi cap polymer guns. He just grinned.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
Nice to have somebody like RJM here to tell us how it really is being a cop.
I understand that no Kalifornia police agency will hire anyone who has been in any of the military special forces units. LAPD and other departments will not hire ex Marines. Don't know where you came up with this bit of misinformation, but it's incorrect. The LAPD has traditionally been a Marine Corps "mafia", with LAPD organizations, clubs and fraternal groups made up of former Marines. It's encouraged. Academy training is still based on Marine cadence calls and PT; the student class leader will traditionally be a former Marine. Probably close to 30-40% of the new recruits now have military prior service in their background. Former military get preference in hiring. The department actively recruits on Camp Pendleton, FT Bragg, FT Irwin, etc. Ex-military (including SOF) are encouraged to join and are VERY well treated by the department. They're older with more life experience, which Personnel Div and cadre both realize and desire. Having come from an SOF background with 24+ years on the LAPD, I think I have some insight into our hiring practices. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 09/07/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Just read an article that stated an average CCWER who practices twice a year has more range time than the average NYPD cop It also goes on to say how the Nypd Policy is to minimize firearms traing, with the belief that more firearms training will cause the officers to make the choice to utilize their firearms on duty more often http://m.animalnewyork.com/2015/i-u...simulator-and-learned-i-should-be-a-cop/ That's brilliant, ain't it? The only next logical step would be to take their handguns away entirely. It worked so well for the British "Bobbies"? RIGHT??? At least, if you took their handguns away from the NYCPD, the general law abiding population would be safer. The article makes no mention of where those 84 slugs all eventually landed. You must be one of the guys who never misses his stationary paper target You seem to have a bit of difficulty recognizing the sarcasm in the first two lines of my previous post. First off, any criticism is aimed squarely at the Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and the rest of the policy makers. They set the tone for the Dept. They discourage the rank and file from becoming proficient with the tools of their trade. That said, whatever your trade may be, if it involves tools which deliver deadly force, it behooves one to become proficient with that tool. If you drive a truck, you better drive it in a manner which does not endanger the public. If you work in medicine you better do your job, so that you do not cause harm to your patients. And if you carry a gun on your hip, one would think you should have a moral imperative to learn to use it in a manner which is safe to the general public. Even if management should discourage such a mindset. As to the last paragraph of my post, I will let you attempt to tell us that cops poorly trained in marksmanship never hit an innocent bystander when attempting to shoot a felon. Does not a NYCPD shooter OWN that bullet until it comes to its final resting place? While I have never been involved in combat, I am a smart enough hunter to hold my fire until I have a very high likelihood of hitting my target, and to ensure that I have a safe back stop. It seems that is a mindset which would work well in police work, if not military combat where suppressive fire is a common tactic. Some good points in your post, however Truck drivers and medical professionals learn a great deal of their trade through experience, how do you propose cops get experience with running gunfights? Noone bats 1000% in a gunfight, regardless of training Gun fights are not hunting arena there is no way to equate the two. Waiting for a good shot in a gunfight may put you on the wrong end of the other guys good shot People continuously fail to take in account the stress levels and adrenaline levels present in a gunfight and most gunfights don't exactly take place in chosen locations.
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,980
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,980 |
Hey RGK, you asked how long the gun fight lasted. . My brother made a couple of phone calls to his friends in the NYPD . Less then a minute! My brothers friend said it is a detectives nightmare :-) he is trying to get more info on it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Nice to have somebody like RJM here to tell us how it really is being a cop.
I understand that no Kalifornia police agency will hire anyone who has been in any of the military special forces units. LAPD and other departments will not hire ex Marines. Don't know where you came up with this bit of misinformation, but it's incorrect. The LAPD has traditionally been a Marine Corps "mafia", with LAPD organizations, clubs and fraternal groups made up of former Marines. It's encouraged. Academy training is still based on Marine cadence calls and PT; the student class leader will traditionally be a former Marine. Probably close to 30-40% of the new recruits now have military prior service in their background. Former military get preference in hiring. The department actively recruits on Camp Pendleton, FT Bragg, FT Irwin, etc. Ex-military (including SOF) are encouraged to join and are VERY well treated by the department. They're older with more life experience, which Personnel Div and cadre both realize. Having come from an SOF background with 24+ years on the LAPD, I think I have some insight into our hiring practices. Bob ![[Linked Image]](http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee449/Ghostgem102/Tim%20Roth%20gifs/timrothbitchslappingyoass.gif)
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
Hey RGK, you asked how long the gun fight lasted. . My brother made a couple of phone calls to his friends in the NYPD . Less then a minute! My brothers friend said it is a detectives nightmare :-) he is trying to get more info on it. Roger that; several different crime scenes, canvassing for witnesses at each and empty fired cases galore. This caper will be analyzed, picked apart and lessons learned for future coppers. And no good guys got hurt. Win-win. Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
Allard was the 1982 National Civilian Pistol Champion; Cirillo shot and competed in PPC for training. Both were initially recruited from the ranks of the NYPD Pistol Team. Allard was the firearms/tactics instructor for the SOU and personally selected each candidate, based on his scores shooting the old Police "L" course, which is fired one-handed with a revolver. As far as the hit ratio on suspects go, this one was somewhat low, as it was a running gun battle with the suspect shooting back (makes a difference sometimes). All the cops fired one magazine at the suspect. All were sure of their background. The NYPD hit ratio overall has been rising steadily over the last few years; aberrations like this shooting will occur, despite all the calls for "more training" by the uninformed. The NYPD range at Rodman's Neck outside the Bronx is going 24-7, qualifying 35,000 cops (2 times yearly). Also included is shotgun and subgun work, plainclothes qual, academy students, gun repair, bomb detail, etc. Juggling the equivalent of more than two Army infantry divisions that need to train constantly is quite a logistical feat. Police work doesn't revolve around gun-handling skills; it's important, but only a small portion of doing a good job and finishing your tour in one piece and your career intact. Two or three points that most don't consider, or care about: 1. In a real gunfight, you don't pick your "scenario", unlike most of the shooters here at their weekly range practice. 2. Lots of rounds available in a gunfight is always good; you keep shooting until the bad guy gives up or dies. You take the shot you're offered, good or bad. Two of the cops in this shooting were highly experienced distinguished marksmen. Good shooters don't always win the day with a well-executed head shot from 50 meters. 3. No one but the suspect was injured; it was a good day for the citizens, cops and the NYPD. Cops won. This incident will be analyzed and critiqued all the way up to Chief level. Lessons will be learned and implemented. That's how it's done in a large organization. Bob Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
Allard was the 1982 National Civilian Pistol Champion; Cirillo shot and competed in PPC for training. Both were initially recruited from the ranks of the NYPD Pistol Team. Allard was the firearms/tactics instructor for the SOU and personally selected each candidate, based on his scores shooting the old Police "L" course, which is fired one-handed with a revolver. As far as the hit ratio on suspects go, this one was somewhat low, as it was a running gun battle with the suspect shooting back (makes a difference sometimes). All the cops fired one magazine at the suspect. All were sure of their background. The NYPD hit ratio overall has been rising steadily over the last few years; aberrations like this shooting will occur, despite all the calls for "more training" by the uninformed. The NYPD range at Rodman's Neck outside the Bronx is going 24-7, qualifying 35,000 cops (2 times yearly). Also included is shotgun and subgun work, plainclothes qual, academy students, gun repair, bomb detail, etc. Juggling the equivalent of more than two Army infantry divisions that need to train constantly is quite a logistical feat. Police work doesn't revolve around gun-handling skills; it's important, but only a small portion of doing a good job and finishing your tour in one piece and your career intact. Two or three points that most don't consider, or care about: 1. In a real gunfight, you don't pick your "scenario", unlike most of the shooters here at their weekly range practice. 2. Lots of rounds available in a gunfight is always good; you keep shooting until the bad guy gives up or dies. You take the shot you're offered, good or bad. Two of the cops in this shooting were highly experienced distinguished marksmen. Good shooters don't always win the day with a well-executed head shot from 50 meters. 3. No one but the suspect was injured; it was a good day for the citizens, cops and the NYPD. Cops won. This incident will be analyzed and critiqued all the way up to Chief level. Lessons will be learned and implemented. That's how it's done in a large organization. Bob Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob Those that knew the man said he had filed off the front sights of his revolvers so he wouldn't be tempted to use them in a gun fight (the opposite of modern gun fighting theory). He just pointed them instinctively. Those close to him also said he was only, at best, a fair shot when he took careful aim with a sighted revolver. I don't believe he is recorded to have ever killed a man who was further away than 20 feet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
I had never heard anything about LAPD being anything less than gun/Marine/SF friendly...with the number of BGs out that way and the shootouts they get into it just would not make sense...
A minute can seem like an eternity...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob Those that knew the man said he had filed off the front sights of his revolvers so he wouldn't be tempted to use them in a gun fight (the opposite of modern gun fighting theory). He just pointed them instinctively. Those close to him also said he was only, at best, a fair shot when he took careful aim with a sighted revolver. I don't believe he is recorded to have ever killed a man who was further away than 20 feet. Better read his history yourself...he killed a card dealer at 70 yards... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickok_%E2%80%93_Davis_Tutt_shootout Can't do that point shooting....his sights are still on his guns... https://www.google.com/search?q=wild+bill+hickok%27s+guns&tbm=isch&imgil=68F_mhsdVm_YKM%253A%253BdlD-vBCS1Y5M8M%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.flickr.com%25252Fphotos%25252Ftoby_d1%25252F3590186084&source=iu&pf=m&fir=68F_mhsdVm_YKM%253A%252CdlD-vBCS1Y5M8M%252C_&biw=1225&bih=539&usg=__5gUpA-LH2jcyCQM7KleMdcYfx-E%3D&ved=0CCsQyjdqFQoTCOjO547Q5ccCFYI5PgodtXoN8w&ei=OOHtVejSJILz-AG19bWYDw#imgrc=68F_mhsdVm_YKM%3A&usg=__5gUpA-LH2jcyCQM7KleMdcYfx-E%3D Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,834 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,834 Likes: 1 |
Regarding police gun fighting, or anything else for that matter -
'No generalization is worth a damn, including this one!'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,810 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 10,810 Likes: 2 |
Gunfights tend to be harder in real life than on TV. Add the physiological changes that occur, like loss of fine motor skills, with vision loss, hearing loss, ect and it becomes a little more challenging. Add in the fear of being shot and defecating or pissing your self and the fun really begins.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,677
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,677 |
Sights are still on these. Provenance is not 100%, but the folks at Cody seemed to think these are his last 2 Navies. ![[Linked Image]](http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc327/Son_of_the_Gael/Alaska%20June%202009%20806_zpshnswrm09.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc327/Son_of_the_Gael/Alaska%20June%202009%20814_zpszn71bsun.jpg)
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
It's been a long time since we've had a thread this full of misinformation.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
I'm not convinced those are his. Folks who actually knew the man said that both his revolvers went missing soon after his death. One was given to an Indian friend of Bill's, soon after which he too was shot dead from behind and the gun taken, never to be seen again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
It's been a long time since we've had a thread this full of misinformation. Roger that. Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669 |
That is the way it was at one time. Not anymore.
Where did I get that information ? Jeff Cooper mentioned it before he died, for one.
The ban on hiring anybody from special forces is state wide in Kalifornia. And that information comes from someone who is retired from the San Jose PD's brass. Other branches of the military are not so banned. Air Force, Army and Navy people are hired and often prefered.
All of this came about in the last few years. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
You're wrong. So just sit there in your wrongness and think about how wrong you are.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
That is the way it was at one time. Not anymore.
Where did I get that information ? Jeff Cooper mentioned it before he died, for one.
The ban on hiring anybody from special forces is state wide in Kalifornia. And that information comes from someone who is retired from the San Jose PD's brass. Other branches of the military are not so banned. Air Force, Army and Navy people are hired and often prefered.
All of this came about in the last few years. E
Was that before or after you were kicked out of law enforcement and convicted of shooting an unarmed suspect, false reports, planting evidence, etc.? The word of a LA SWAT officer (recently retired) is going to carry more weight than your words, Rocklin.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669 |
LAPD has long had the reputation of the highest gunfight survival rate among large police organizations anywhere in the world.
The skills they use were developed by Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver, and several others way back in the 1960's.
The last I heard, they still train their cops that way. They shoot alot. Both with side arms and their shotguns.
In spite of all of this, their "Politically Correct" shooting policies are so demanding that very few dare doing any shooting. Even in self defense.
On top of that, the temperment of many of their new hires are really not suited to effective shooting. When they were hunting the ex-cop that killed some of them, they managed to fire 117 rds. at a truck containing two women that did not match the description of the suspects truck. The range was aprox. 50 yds. shortly before sunrise in good light. Luckly, they only wounded one of the women in a non serious way. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
I believe the reason most Police Officers have a problem hitting their target, is because they are having second thoughts about shooting another human or scared chittless about being shot themselves. They don't even see the sights and aim, they just point and shoot and hope for the best.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
That is the way it was at one time. Not anymore.
Where did I get that information ? Jeff Cooper mentioned it before he died, for one.
The ban on hiring anybody from special forces is state wide in Kalifornia. And that information comes from someone who is retired from the San Jose PD's brass. Other branches of the military are not so banned. Air Force, Army and Navy people are hired and often prefered.
All of this came about in the last few years. E
Gotta be the the dumbest thing I've heard today, but hey, the day is still young. No "statewide ban" on SOF hiring; what a lawsuit and a newspaper article that would be. Like I said, LAPD actively recruits Army, Navy, USMC, etc, to include SOF dudes. I had more than one Marine 0311 or an Army 11B/18B MOS guy as my trainee when I was an FTO. As far as that gunfighter god Jeff Cooper goes, he wasn't a cop in So Cal or any other place. "What he told you" is BS. But hey, I was only there for 24 years. Since I've just retired from the LAPD and you've been out of it for several decades, maybe you should do a google check or something on the LAPD and So Cal police hiring. When I was back on active duty as a 1SG at FT Bragg SWCS (Special Warfare Center & School) in 2012 and 2013 I personally recruited more than one SF dude for the dept. And they're there now. Amazing the schitt that pops up on the internet. Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669 |
4ager, I am not a convicted felon. The background check done for CCW permit revealed no criminal record. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
That is the way it was at one time. Not anymore.
Where did I get that information ? Jeff Cooper mentioned it before he died, for one.
The ban on hiring anybody from special forces is state wide in Kalifornia. And that information comes from someone who is retired from the San Jose PD's brass. Other branches of the military are not so banned. Air Force, Army and Navy people are hired and often prefered.
All of this came about in the last few years. E
Gotta be the the dumbest thing I've heard today, but hey, the day is still young. No "statewide ban" on SOF hiring; what a lawsuit and a newspaper article that would be. Like I said, LAPD actively recruits Army, Navy, USMC, etc, to include SOF dudes. I had more than one Marine 0311 or an Army 11B/18B MOS guy as my trainee when I was an FTO. As far as that gunfighter god Jeff Cooper goes, he wasn't a cop in So Cal or any other place. "What he told you" is BS. But hey, I was only there for 24 years. Since I've just retired from the LAPD and you've been out of it for several decades, maybe you should do a google check or something on the LAPD and So Cal police hiring. When I was back on active duty as a 1SG at FT Bragg SWCS (Special Warfare Center & School) in 2012 and 2013 I personally recruited more than one SF dude for the dept. And they're there now. Amazing the schitt that pops up on the internet. Bob ![[Linked Image]](http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz76/Rawrrr-Its-Vaness/big_4035640.gif)
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
4ager, I am not a convicted felon. The background check done for CCW permit revealed no criminal record. E When slather a giant load of Über on something that's already Überriffic, whatever that thing is then called, that's what this thread just became. Oheremicus....What were you convicted of, if not a felony?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
4ager, I am not a convicted felon. The background check done for CCW permit revealed no criminal record. E Whatever the background check said VERY recently (when you got your rights restored to carry) is subject only to court order. The incident that got you booted from law enforcement is what it is, and was, and always will be. You haven't a clue, Rocklin, and you're being a fool. Bob has the credentials you don't, and couldn't, have and who/what you are is pretty damned well known these days.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
LAPD has long had the reputation of the highest gunfight survival rate among large police organizations anywhere in the world.
The skills they use were developed by Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver, and several others way back in the 1960's.
The last I heard, they still train their cops that way. They shoot alot. Both with side arms and their shotguns.
In spite of all of this, their "Politically Correct" shooting policies are so demanding that very few dare doing any shooting. Even in self defense.
On top of that, the temperment of many of their new hires are really not suited to effective shooting. When they were hunting the ex-cop that killed some of them, they managed to fire 117 rds. at a truck containing two women that did not match the description of the suspects truck. The range was aprox. 50 yds. shortly before sunrise in good light. Luckly, they only wounded one of the women in a non serious way. E Some more stupidity. Like any organization that has 10,000 people, some aren't cut out for street patrol and catching bad guys. These guys don't last too long. Peer pressure works well. The cops that did the shooting at the pick-up truck in Torrance (Mexican ladies delivering newspapers) were from Torrance PD and the Airport Police. Two LA cops were there, but didn't fire. As far as Cooper's techniques go, they were used as an experiment during the Nov 1984 class. It was taught by John Helms and Larry Mudgett, both LAPD SWAT and Cooper school instructors. Shootings and qual scores by those Nov 84 class officers were tracked for 5 years. SOME of the techniques were adopted; Weaver stance, etc. Not used now. Time marches on. LAPD shooting policy is the same as it always was; you screw up, you go down. If it's a good shoot, you'll be protected. It's happening now; the Chief is going against the finding of the civilian Police Commission in a shooting in skid row. The police chief has final say. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 09/08/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,039
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,039 |
4ager, I am not a convicted felon. The background check done for CCW permit revealed no criminal record. E So how much time lapsed from getting fired to getting your concealed carry permit? The damn paper probably rotted with your charges on it!!!
"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, then why do they keep score?"
Vince Lombardi
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,669 |
I am very surprised to hear that. Thanks for the information. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,039
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,039 |
I am very surprised to hear that. Thanks for the information. E No. Your just blowing off at the mouth again and got caught! Nothing unusual for you!!!
"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, then why do they keep score?"
Vince Lombardi
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob Those that knew the man said he had filed off the front sights of his revolvers so he wouldn't be tempted to use them in a gun fight (the opposite of modern gun fighting theory). He just pointed them instinctively. Those close to him also said he was only, at best, a fair shot when he took careful aim with a sighted revolver. I don't believe he is recorded to have ever killed a man who was further away than 20 feet. I recall reading exactly the opposite, specifically his last gunfight in Springfield, MO. I recall reading that he specifically took aim (distance was like 70 yards) and because of that his shot struck and the other guys didn't (I don't recall who the guy was, but it was over a card game and a watch).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob Those that knew the man said he had filed off the front sights of his revolvers so he wouldn't be tempted to use them in a gun fight (the opposite of modern gun fighting theory). He just pointed them instinctively. Those close to him also said he was only, at best, a fair shot when he took careful aim with a sighted revolver. I don't believe he is recorded to have ever killed a man who was further away than 20 feet. I recall reading exactly the opposite, specifically his last gunfight in Springfield, MO. I recall reading that he specifically took aim (distance was like 70 yards) and because of that his shot struck and the other guys didn't (I don't recall who the guy was, but it was over a card game and a watch). July 21, 1865, Springfield, MO. Hickok killed Davis Tutt at a distance of 70 or 75 yds (depends on what you read). One shot, one kill. Front sight focus with excellent trigger control. Too easy. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 09/08/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,081
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,081 |
God, Family, and Country.
NRA Endowment Member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,576
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,576 |
Wild Bill Hickok's only training regimen was to fire five rounds from each of his revolvers before sundown in his back yard at a static target, thus emptying them, followed by reloading them with fresh powder, balls, and caps before setting them by his bed for the night. I guess he owed his success at gun fighting mainly to attitude and steely nerves. Can't argue with that. Shooting daily probably didn't hurt, either. Bob Those that knew the man said he had filed off the front sights of his revolvers so he wouldn't be tempted to use them in a gun fight (the opposite of modern gun fighting theory). He just pointed them instinctively. Those close to him also said he was only, at best, a fair shot when he took careful aim with a sighted revolver. I don't believe he is recorded to have ever killed a man who was further away than 20 feet. I recall reading exactly the opposite, specifically his last gunfight in Springfield, MO. I recall reading that he specifically took aim (distance was like 70 yards) and because of that his shot struck and the other guys didn't (I don't recall who the guy was, but it was over a card game and a watch). July 21, 1865, Springfield, MO. Hickok killed Davis Tutt at a distance of 70 or 75 yds (depends on what you read). One shot, one kill. Front sight focus with excellent trigger control. Too easy. Bob I've heard that there is a marker in the place where it happened... sometime when I'm in Springfield I want to go to the square to see it.
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949 |
Sometimes without being there it can be hard to explain to someone why a shot might not hit or how damn difficult it can be to hit someone. To much training by police or CCW folks, relies on a fight they hope to get, not the fight they might actually get.
Multiple times I have held off shooting simply because I could not get a proper sight picture for the needed shot due to suspect movement, my movement, use of cover by anyone involved, lighting conditions, distance, a partner blinding you with a flashlight as you get ready to shoot, someone stepping in front of you because they are trying to use the same cover, the jacked up K-9 shifting its focus to you, citizens standing in the background taking a great facebook photo with their smart phone, etc.
It makes me laugh a little when someone demands we apply square range solutions to dynamic, 3-D situations.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,677
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,677 |
I've heard that there is a marker in the place where it happened... sometime when I'm in Springfield I want to go to the square to see it.
There is.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
I've heard that there is a marker in the place where it happened... sometime when I'm in Springfield I want to go to the square to see it.
Yes there is, that's where I heard about the incident.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,438
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,438 |
jwp475 - "Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers...". That's 2 good individuals out of maybe (just guessing here) 30,000 NYPD LEO's. Homesteader
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
jwp475 - "Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers...". That's 2 good individuals out of maybe (just guessing here) 30,000 NYPD LEO's. Homesteader
Yep, but the fact remains that they were extremely good!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
..so much for 9mm being accurate, effective and easy to shoot well. That said one to the calf did bring the guy down.
Would you say that about your AR?  Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
...at least I aimed...just led too far.
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Are you saying the cops didn't aim?
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
...I will guaranty it... Go watch the LE shootings on YouTube and LiveLeak..and it isn't only LEOs... Point gun, jerk trigger...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Are you saying the cops didn't aim?
Travis 4 cops shot 84 rounds and one round clipped the guy's calf...do you really think there was any sort of basic marksmaship whatsoever going on there? I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Are you saying the cops didn't aim?
Travis 4 cops shot 84 rounds and one round clipped the guy's calf...do you really think there was any sort of basic marksmaship whatsoever going on there? I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds. No you couldn't.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I'm sure that the guy and cops were standing perfectly still, like Kevin's imaginary 400 yard shots.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
...I will guaranty it... Go watch the LE shootings on YouTube and LiveLeak..and it isn't only LEOs... Point gun, jerk trigger...
Bob That's a pretty bold guarantee. Most people have a hard time hitting a moving target even while using support, a rifle, and having full knowledge that the target will not only be incoming, but harmless as well. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
4 cops shot 84 rounds and one round clipped the guy's calf...do you really think there was any sort of basic marksmaship whatsoever going on there?
I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds. I don't know that there was, and I don't know that there wasn't. How many fleeing negroes have you shot at after taking fire? And what was your hit percentage? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889 |
not really on the thread topic here, but in some of the incidents i'm aware of--and the few videos i've seen--the LE officers do a great job. about 5 weeks ago, my brother who recently retired from LE, sent me this video to watch. from what i could tell by viewing the video, the male officer did a good job. the gal got somewhat "squeally" at the moment of truth, but just about the time the gent was neutralized, she managed a few rounds... https://www.full30.com/video/dc1c563aa6b106f252dfe6a9d91ffd94?ref=F530fbbtw, can someone explain how these videos can be inserted into a post, where they appear as a viewing screen, rather than just a link--what is the procedure?
all learning is like a funnel:
however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end.
the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I have not the first idea what I am supposed to ascertain from any of those videos. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
I have not the first idea what I am supposed to ascertain from any of those videos. Travis Watch the shooters, the gun and the line of sight...all of them are point shooting. One of the only ones who uses his sights is the gunfight in the driveway where the guy is using the tree for cover. The officer at the end of the driveway behind the pickup makes a nice aimed headshot... Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
not really on the thread topic here, but in some of the incidents i'm aware of--and the few videos i've seen--the LE officers do a great job. about 5 weeks ago, my brother who recently retired from LE, sent me this video to watch. from what i could tell by viewing the video, the male officer did a good job. the gal got somewhat "squeally" at the moment of truth, but just about the time the gent was neutralized, she managed a few rounds... https://www.full30.com/video/dc1c563aa6b106f252dfe6a9d91ffd94?ref=F530fbbtw, can someone explain how these videos can be inserted into a post, where they appear as a viewing screen, rather than just a link--what is the procedure? There is second video out there of the female officer shooting...she does a good job... If you look, when the BG pulled the gun she went for it but the male officer grabbed the guys shoulder and spun him around so he could not point the gun at the female officer and the momentum spun him long enough for both the officers to draw... First time I have seen a laser in use...and again...no sights and I'll bet as fast as he was firing he never saw the dot either...shoot till they go down.. Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
When viewing a grainy surveillance video or a shaky cell phone video from across the street, exactly how do I tell if the cops are looking at their sights or not?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I'll bet as fast as he was firing he never saw the dot either...shoot till they go down..
Bob And since the cop hit what he was aiming at really fast, your expert conclusion is that he didn't use his sights? Gimme a break.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
The first one is about as clear as it gets... Better yet do what I have done...talk to bunch of officers who have been in gun fights...the ones within 10 yards have just about all told me they never saw their sights.
When it is up-close and personal you are so focused on the BG and his weapon you never see your gun. That is why proper handgun fit is so important and learn and practice point shooting. Dallas PD started teaching point shooting about 1980 and we had the highest hit percentage in the nation. In 1983 we had about 80 officer involved shooting, something like 65 hits with 34 dead. Most gun fights didn't last 3 rounds.
And the officers I talked to, most were not hunters or even shooters, but they all had the attitude that was instilled in them by two DPD Sergeants, Fouche and Patterson who put on an officer survival course that most departments would never have the stomach to put on... And the last thing you wanted to be when you walked out of their class was their next Star up on the silver screen....
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
That didn't answer the question.
I want to know How can you tell from a grainy surveillance video or a shaky cell phone video from across the street that the cop wasn't looking at his sights?
The first video isn't obvious. You have no idea if he was looking at his sights or not. You're guessing.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
not really on the thread topic here, but in some of the incidents i'm aware of--and the few videos i've seen--the LE officers do a great job. about 5 weeks ago, my brother who recently retired from LE, sent me this video to watch. from what i could tell by viewing the video, the male officer did a good job. the gal got somewhat "squeally" at the moment of truth, but just about the time the gent was neutralized, she managed a few rounds... https://www.full30.com/video/dc1c563aa6b106f252dfe6a9d91ffd94?ref=F530fbbtw, can someone explain how these videos can be inserted into a post, where they appear as a viewing screen, rather than just a link--what is the procedure? I guess that guy didn't want to go to jail. Good work by the officers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
...I'll make it clear then..."NO". Go over YouTube and LiveLeak and look at a bunch of the gunfight videos...you think they are aiming with their sights...ok...
All I can tell you is go talk to the people who been there and done that...I have...about 50 of them...and that is what they told me..
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,711
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,711 |
I'm not sure how the officers are trained in Poland or Germany?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
One video is of a couple pollocks, the other is of a couple krauts, and the last is... I don't know WTF it is.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I'm not sure how the officers are trained in Poland or Germany? Whatever it is, it's totally relevant. And you can definitely from the video if the officer's eyeballs are looking at or over the sights.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
So, my 9mm won't kill anything AND I may as well file off the sights.
I love this place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Don't file off your sights yet. I can't tell if point shooting is good or bad. I think it depends on if you're a Texan or a Frenchie.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
So, my 9mm won't kill anything AND I may as well file off the sights.
I love this place. According to some here, yes. Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
...I'll make it clear then..."NO". Go over YouTube and LiveLeak and look at a bunch of the gunfight videos...you think they are aiming with their sights...ok...
All I can tell you is go talk to the people who been there and done that...I have...about 50 of them...and that is what they told me..
Bob Not remembering seeing the front sight and actually not seeing the front sight may not be the same thing. I suspect the eyes were focused on the threat and the front sight was in their peripheral vision.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
So, my 9mm won't kill anything AND I may as well file off the sights.
I love this place. According to some here, yes. Bob Just to be clear, I never said anyone should file off their front sights. I train with my front sight being my focus point. Always have. I was commenting on what I had read about Bill Hickok. Might be false, but true or not, I don't advocate it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your post(s), moreover the apparent generalization that actually aiming isn't happening, so why bother having sights.
IAAAY.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Are you saying the cops didn't aim?
Travis 4 cops shot 84 rounds and one round clipped the guy's calf...do you really think there was any sort of basic marksmaship whatsoever going on there? I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds. No you couldn't. If you want to make the trip, I'll use my Colt's .38 Super to hit an IPSC target at 400 yards off hand inside of 84 rounds. If I win, you give me $1,000.00. If I lose, you leave with my .38 Super (which is about $1,400.00). Make the trip, you can stay at my house for the weekend. I'll feed you right and proper with biscuits and gravy for breakfast, and I'll even put a brisket and some baby backs on the smoker and give you a right proper meal and your favorite beer on ice to wash it down with. To be honest, I've never tried it at 400 yards before; so this would be "fair chase". I've done it at 250, but that's as far as I've shot my Super. So how confident are you of your calling me out on that one? My Super has some custom touches, but accuracy wise, it's the factory barrel with the factory bushing and link. Think of it...you HATE MY GUTS...You could have my personal pistol, and you could post pictures of it daily on the Campfire and call me a braggart who couldn't hold up his end. If you lose, I'll pocket the grand and I won't even mention it on the Campfire; it will just be between you and I.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
4 cops shot 84 rounds and one round clipped the guy's calf...do you really think there was any sort of basic marksmaship whatsoever going on there?
I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds. I don't know that there was, and I don't know that there wasn't. How many fleeing negroes have you shot at after taking fire? And what was your hit percentage? Travis Zero...It's less about me and more about making a point. If you have time to squeeze off 84 rounds, you have time to at least make an effort to connect on a half dozen or so shots.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
Did the 4 cops shoot 84 rounds each, or is it that 84 sounds better than 21 +/-?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Zero...It's less about me and more about making a point. If you have time to squeeze off 84 rounds, you have time to at least make an effort to connect on a half dozen or so shots.
Ok Kevin. How many shots should the officers have fired? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Did the 4 cops shoot 84 rounds each, or is it that 84 sounds better than 21 +/-? It's a total round count. I believe there were six officers firing. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Make the trip, you can stay at my house for the weekend. Even if he wins, he loses. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
Did the 4 cops shoot 84 rounds each, or is it that 84 sounds better than 21 +/-? It's a total round count. I believe there were six officers firing. Travis So 6 guys dump their magazines?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Two of them were bleeders.
I believe they accounted for 36 of the rounds if I am remembering correctly.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Zero...It's less about me and more about making a point. If you have time to squeeze off 84 rounds, you have time to at least make an effort to connect on a half dozen or so shots.
Ok Kevin. How many shots should the officers have fired? Travis I don't know. But if you can safely expose yourself long enough to empty a magazine, then you ought to have enough time to make one or two count. Like the saying goes, you can never miss fast enough to catch up!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
Two of them were bleeders.
I believe they accounted for 36 of the rounds if I am remembering correctly.
Travis Keeps getting better
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Make the trip, you can stay at my house for the weekend. Even if he wins, he loses. Travis And how's that? He gets to run me down all he wants with solid proof to back it up. And there's more than enough people on the Campfire who hate me to crowd source the plane tickets. Seems like he wins either way, and I'm the one that's gambling. Hell, you guys could run me outta here. I'm betting you've already sent him a PM with an offer to help out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
And how's that? He gets to run me down all he wants with solid proof to back it up. And there's more than enough people on the Campfire who hate me to crowd source the plane tickets. Seems like he wins either way, and I'm the one that's gambling. Hell, you guys could run me outta here. I'm betting you've already sent him a PM with an offer to help out. Should we start a pity/victim/conspiring-against-me forum? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
And how's that? He gets to run me down all he wants with solid proof to back it up. And there's more than enough people on the Campfire who hate me to crowd source the plane tickets. Seems like he wins either way, and I'm the one that's gambling. Hell, you guys could run me outta here. I'm betting you've already sent him a PM with an offer to help out. Should we start a pity/victim/conspiring-against-me forum? Travis No, good Lord you're a freaking juvenile. I have an idea, why don't you let Blue handle this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Blue is busy, and I'm his wingman. ![[Linked Image]](https://farm1.staticflickr.com/696/21138977628_8884d7f416_b.jpg)
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
Jim In Idaho posted this over on another thread...this is what I have been trying to say...
"Couple of baselines:
Placement is 90% of the game, then comes bullet performance and last comes headstamp.
The person who gets the first good hit (placement) in a gunfight is usually going to be the winner.
As noted several times here, the firearm has to satisfy Gunfight Rule #1 – have a gun.
When the S hits the F, it’s going to hit really suddenly. Good chance it will be dark, too.
I’ve had one experience using a handgun in an emergency situation and it was embarrassing. I’m a good shot, not world class but good - when I take my time. I've verified this in silhouette and bullseye matches against other good shooters.
But 40 years ago when a very pissed off razorback came at me I missed him 3 out of 4 shots at something like 8 feet and the last shot hit him in the foot. If he hadn’t been mostly dead already I’d have some really cool scars today.
That colored my opinion on defensive handguns ever since.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I got something that hits exactly where my wide open eyes are looking.
I carry a gun that hits right where I’m looking when I grab it really fast and stick it out there and shoot as fast as possible without aiming or shifting my grip or other niceties, same as I would when my primitive brain suddenly realizes I’m about to really and truly die. That’s it. That’s 98% of the criteria. The other 2% is caliber and bullet construction and all that other stuff.
FWIW, it’s small enough to always be with me while still throwing something that hurts. I always carry the same gun in the same place so I don’t have to waste milliseconds thinking about things. The one I carry has a great reputation for reliability and this particular specimen has been tested enough to verify that. But the fact that it fits me came first.
I may be wrong on this, I’ve never been shot at and hope I never have to put this to a test, but that’s my take on the subject."
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
And Bob if it's that hard chromed Commander in Super 38; I'd say you have chosen well. You have a reliable pistol that's very shootable, and it just oozes cool!!
I'm not trying to say it was an easy shot, clearly it wasn't. The report said the assailant fired "almost a dozen rounds".
But when you watch the video you hear VERY rapid shooting, clearly there's not anyone who's really making a concerted effort to make their shots count. Toward the end you hear 4 much slower shots, like someone just clicked and realized he needed to slow down and make his shots count.
No I wasn't there, and there's no guarantee I would do better. But as a shooter, I have to seriously call into question 4 guys emptying their mags and only one round connecting.
I've been to a LOT of officer involved shootings, and I've never seen that many rounds expended with only one hit. You have to question that kind of hit ratio. You want to give the guys the benefit of the doubt, but they shot 84 rounds and the assailant fired less than a dozen. So they were taking fire, but only a fraction of what they were giving.
And I'll even allot for the cops using suppressing fire. Many instructors will tell you there's no such thing with a handgun, but that's BS. I know because it's a tactic I've used on several occasions in force on force training, and it can be quite effective, especially when someone has the drop on you. You crank off several rounds with the best accuracy you can muter to just break his initiative, and then fire your best shot to close the deal...I've done that a few times and it just plain works (although my finishing shot was never in the leg). But even accounting for the tactic of suppressing fire, you still have 4 cops expending 84 rounds and connecting once!! I understand Blue & Travis wanting to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, but daaammm...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I think it'd be a lot easier if everybody just accepted that when people run and shoot back, hit percentages get really, really low.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
I think it'd be a lot easier if everybody just accepted that when people run and shoot back, hit percentages get really, really low.
Where would be the reason to dick fence with one another?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
I think it'd be a lot easier if everybody just accepted that when people run and shoot back, hit percentages get really, really low.
Travis I do accept that and I don't see how anyone could construe anything that I said to me not getting or accepting that. Yeah hit percentages go WAY the pukk down, but at some point you have to say the hit percentage has gone down well south of what anyone could expect to be due to the stress of combat...And I'd say a 1.19% hit ratio is comfortably into the unacceptable range...and that's what I've been saying all along. But hell yeah, it's rare when people shoot to their potential when someone is shooting at them. Best shooting I've ever seen under stress was a California Highway Patrolman who had a speeding vehicle come at him; the driver was trying to kill him by using his vehicle as a weapon. That cop fired two rounds at around 10 yards, and through a windshield put one round just above the right eye, and another round through the carotid artery of the assailant...amazing! And I've seen quite a few Sacramento cops (Sheriff's deputies and City PD) actually shoot better in combat than they did at the range. But to your point, it's SERIOUSLY RARE for people to shoot well while taking fire. But one hit out of 84...you HAVE to question that. Now maybe there was some good reason, maybe all 4 cops were trying to balance on marbles while shooting or some other extreme challenge. Or maybe they had the upper hand the whole time, broke leather and started jerking the triggers as fast and as hard as they could. My bet is, it's somewhere in the middle, but leaning toward the trigger jerking side.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,407 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,407 Likes: 2 |
If you were using suppressing fire in an LE environment I would like to have been there for the hotwash. I was not aware that there were Dept.s that condoned not being accountable for every shot fired. FOF training is conducted to teach the correct methodology in a manner that demands accountability for each shot.
The more you post the funnier it gets.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
COVERING FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
And I'd say a 1.19% hit ratio is comfortably into the unacceptable range...and that's what I've been saying all along.
Yeah. And I've been laughing ever since. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
If you were using suppressing fire in an LE environment I would like to have been there for the hotwash. I was not aware that there were Dept.s that condoned not being accountable for every shot fired. FOF training is conducted to teach the correct methodology in a manner that demands accountability for each shot.
The more you post the funnier it gets.
mike r I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you. Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Did the 4 cops shoot 84 rounds each, or is it that 84 sounds better than 21 +/-? It's a total round count. I believe there were six officers firing. Travis So 6 guys dump their magazines? No, assuming they were all carrying G19s. That would be 96 rounds
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
And I've been laughing ever since.
Travis
You really need to come up with some new material, you're just unimaginative. Rather than talk through an issue, you just ridicule. You do that because you're defending a hit ratio of 1.19% and you're just plain wrong, so when in doubt just sling chit. Like I said before, just juvenile. But those with any critical thinking skills can see through it for what it is; sniveling.
Last edited by GunGeek; 09/11/15. Reason: typo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Are you done pretending to know what you're talking about now?
Or are you going to keep providing me with material?
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
Are you done pretending to know what you're talking about now?
Or are you going to keep providing me with material?
Dave Only members of the club here at the Fire know what they're talking about, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Are you done pretending to know what you're talking about now?
Or are you going to keep providing me with material?
Dave Just waiting for you to point out where I got it wrong...'cause you just can't. That would require thinking beyond the next wisecrack, and you just have no mental depth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Ok Gibson. Since you think you know what you're talking about and have deemed these officer's shooting ability as unacceptable...
Break down the gunfight for me. Distances. Lighting. Cover and concealment. Officers involved. Speed of target. Shooting while moving, shooting while not moving. All of it.
And after you break that down, tell me how it compares to Use of Force statistics around the country.
Go.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Only members of the club here at the Fire know what they're talking about, right? Name the members and I'll let you know. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,604 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,604 Likes: 15 |
I love this thread
BTW I am not a member. I just have one.
MAGA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
And I've been laughing ever since.
Travis
You really need to come up with some new material, you're just unimaginative. Rather than talk through an issue, you just ridicule. You do that because you're defending a hit ratio of 1.19% and you're just plain wrong, so when in doubt just sling chit. Like I said before, just juvenile. But those with any critical thinking skills can see through it for what it is; sniveling. So, what's your solution here? More range time? Rodman's Neck in the Bronx (NYPD outdoor range) is going 24/7, 365. No cops or citizens hurt; bad guy in custody. Sounds like a win to me. What's "too many"? If only 50 rounds were fired and the suspect was killed, would that be OK? How about 20 rounds, no hits, and the suspect surrenders? Inquiring minds want to know your solution to a nonexistent problem. Were "too many" rounds fired at the North Hollywood gunfight? Somewhere over 2,000 total were launched there. Same outcome...bad guys lost, good guys OK, no citizens hurt. Yes, training was updated as lessons were learned, but cops at the scene did the best they could under tough, unusual conditions. You respond and react to the situation you're given, not the scenario you want at the range. The shooting will be critiqued up and down the chain of command and torn apart by the dept tactics and firearms guys. Findings will be disseminated and training will be updated and modified. And that's pretty good for a 35,000 man dept. Travis has actually been easy on you. But you only know what you know. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 09/11/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,600 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,600 Likes: 1 |
I think it is axiomatic that, as the number of variables and the fluctuations within variable categories increase, hit potential goes down. The square range on the perfect sunny day and with no movement is as good as it gets. It goes downhill from there. Yet, I know people who were atrocious on the square range who could buck up and get hits under life threatening stress.
I have a hard time drawing any conclusions on what works and what doesn’t across all people and variables. Actual gunfights are low frequency events and most people don’t get to be in a lot of them. Training can be geared to simulating actual conditions, but it still isn’t the same. (Also, SIMS don’t really work as well as distances increase.)
The only thing I know for sure is that you have a 100% chance of not hitting the target if you don’t shoot at it. So, if the person needs shooting, somebody probably needs to get cranking. When it comes to both opponents moving and especially as distances increase, the actions of coordinating the sights, estimating lead and executing appropriate trapping or tracking techniques and keeping all that together for the shot and follow through becomes darn hard and even daunting for the super pro operators. (Look at people shooting something as simple as an IDPA qualifier with minor forward movement toward a stationary target at relatively close distance.) As long as lives are not endangered, extra holes in trees and such are not a real downside any more than holes in the berm on the range. Of course, decision-making changes once no-shoot targets get in the picture.
Am I supporting the use of volume fire in lieu of proper technique? Of course not. But, sometimes it takes a lot of rounds to end the conflict. (North Hollywood is an example.)
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
So are you saying that 84 rounds and one hit is okay? Sure it all turned out just fine in this incident, but what about next time? There's a bit of a disturbing pattern with NYPD and their lack of marksmanship. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/n...york-city-police-investigation.html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/n...-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.htmlAnd Travis isn't engaging in any sort of debate; just just slinging mud. He actually started to debate for the first time I've ever seen in years at the Campfire, but then he just couldn't help himself. I kept it civilized until he decided to sling mud. I'd be happy to gentlemanly debate the issue with him, but he's not capable of that. You said in one post 10x more than Travis has said on the subject. I think it's because you have the critical thinking skills to intelligently debate the subject, and he doesn't. With Travis there is no disagreement, if you don't see things his way, then you must be some blithering idiot; childish. You and I are on different sides of this one, but you didn't resort to being childish at all, you presented VERY good points that I find difficult to counter. You were able to make your case in a gentlemanly fashion. I both agree and disagree with your position, but I appreciate you being a gentleman about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,600 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,600 Likes: 1 |
84 rounds with 1 hit is certainly nothing to aspire to. The mounted officer in Austin who took the one handed 312 foot shot from atop a horse should be the goal. But, run and gun deals get crazy, and it is hard to make generalizations or to suggest that more firearms training would have resulted in a hit earlier in the process. How many (stationary) people repeatedly fire shotguns at moving birds and fail to connect with a single pellet. How could they miss? Well, it happens.
I don’t see much benefit in debating incidents as they appear in brief news articles. They don’t provide much probative value as to whether the police should have been able to hit the bad guys under the particular circumstances (or whether they should have fired at all).
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,540 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,540 Likes: 2 |
If y'all don't behave I'm gonna walk out back and shoot an old water heater tank at 200 yards with my 1860 Army 
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
If y'all don't behave I'm gonna walk out back and shoot an old water heater tank at 200 yards with my 1860 Army Please take note that it isn't running. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
So are you saying that 84 rounds and one hit is okay? Sure it all turned out just fine in this incident, but what about next time? There's a bit of a disturbing pattern with NYPD and their lack of marksmanship. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/n...york-city-police-investigation.html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/n...-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.htmlAnd Travis isn't engaging in any sort of debate; just just slinging mud. He actually started to debate for the first time I've ever seen in years at the Campfire, but then he just couldn't help himself. I kept it civilized until he decided to sling mud. I'd be happy to gentlemanly debate the issue with him, but he's not capable of that. You said in one post 10x more than Travis has said on the subject. I think it's because you have the critical thinking skills to intelligently debate the subject, and he doesn't. With Travis there is no disagreement, if you don't see things his way, then you must be some blithering idiot; childish. You and I are on different sides of this one, but you didn't resort to being childish at all, you presented VERY good points that I find difficult to counter. You were able to make your case in a gentlemanly fashion. I both agree and disagree with your position, but I appreciate you being a gentleman about it. JFC Gibson. How much further can you cram RGK's cock down your throat? Wouldn't it be easier to just STFU and admit you don't know WTF you're talking about? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,540 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,540 Likes: 2 |
If y'all don't behave I'm gonna walk out back and shoot an old water heater tank at 200 yards with my 1860 Army Please take note that it isn't running. Travis Killjoy.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I'm thinking I may find a way to attach IPSC targets to my son's Traxxas R/C truck. Just for fun.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
No doubt Gibson will morph into an R/C guru next time he logs on and give me all sorts of advice on that schit too.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
I find it amusing that some think they know what the hit ratio should be in a gunfight, despite having never been involved in one.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I could hit a guy at 400 yards with a handgun in less than 84 rounds. No you couldn't. If you want to make the trip, I'll use my Colt's .38 Super to hit an IPSC target at 400 yards off hand inside of 84 rounds. If I win, you give me $1,000.00. If I lose, you leave with my .38 Super (which is about $1,400.00). Make the trip, you can stay at my house for the weekend. I'll feed you right and proper with biscuits and gravy for breakfast, and I'll even put a brisket and some baby backs on the smoker and give you a right proper meal and your favorite beer on ice to wash it down with. To be honest, I've never tried it at 400 yards before; so this would be "fair chase". I've done it at 250, but that's as far as I've shot my Super. So how confident are you of your calling me out on that one? My Super has some custom touches, but accuracy wise, it's the factory barrel with the factory bushing and link. Think of it...you HATE MY GUTS...You could have my personal pistol, and you could post pictures of it daily on the Campfire and call me a braggart who couldn't hold up his end. If you lose, I'll pocket the grand and I won't even mention it on the Campfire; it will just be between you and I. Wow, where to start….. First, I don’t hate you. I hope you sleep better tonight knowing that. But not while actually thinking about me. Don’t think about me when you sleep, just sleep more peacefully because of me. Secondly, no, I will not travel to NW Nevada. Although I figure you’re an alright guy, a sleepover is mosdef out of the question. You’ll never put your gravy on my biscuits. Thirdly, feel free to hit the 400 yard target. I don’t think you can. But if you wanna prove me wrong, please do. You can post about it and I’ll say, “Wow Kevin. Great shooting. That’s awesome. I probably couldn’t make that shot, even with 85 shots.”
There’s no need to wait on me to drive all the way across the country to make the shot. If you need 84 bullets I’ll put some in a shoebox and mail it to you. Just let me know.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Blue is busy, and I'm his wingman. And thanks to Dave for having my back today while I was busy at the range. ![[Linked Image]](http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z118/Bluedreaux/Top%20Gun%20High5_zpsqqdbohgr.gif)
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
I find it amusing that some think they know what the hit ratio should be in a gunfight, despite having never been involved in one.
Well that makes 4 regulars of the Campfire who disagree with me, and 3 who were capable of being gentlemen about it (Beavis is still a juvenile). We'll just have to disagree. I don't think you have to have been in a gunfight to know that one hit out of 84 rounds is not a good thing. But you guys (and Beavis) disagree and find it acceptable. Okay then.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
So are you saying that 84 rounds and one hit is okay? Sure it all turned out just fine in this incident, but what about next time? There's a bit of a disturbing pattern with NYPD and their lack of marksmanship. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/n...york-city-police-investigation.html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/n...-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.htmlAnd Travis isn't engaging in any sort of debate; just just slinging mud. He actually started to debate for the first time I've ever seen in years at the Campfire, but then he just couldn't help himself. I kept it civilized until he decided to sling mud. I'd be happy to gentlemanly debate the issue with him, but he's not capable of that. You said in one post 10x more than Travis has said on the subject. I think it's because you have the critical thinking skills to intelligently debate the subject, and he doesn't. With Travis there is no disagreement, if you don't see things his way, then you must be some blithering idiot; childish. You and I are on different sides of this one, but you didn't resort to being childish at all, you presented VERY good points that I find difficult to counter. You were able to make your case in a gentlemanly fashion. I both agree and disagree with your position, but I appreciate you being a gentleman about it. JFC Gibson. How much further can you cram RGK's cock down your throat? Wouldn't it be easier to just STFU and admit you don't know WTF you're talking about? Travis Nice job Beavis, what a burn!!! You're so clever.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
If you want to make the trip, I'll use my Colt's .38 Super to hit an IPSC target at 400 yards off hand inside of 84 rounds. If I win, you give me $1,000.00. If I lose, you leave with my .38 Super (which is about $1,400.00). Make the trip, you can stay at my house for the weekend. I'll feed you right and proper with biscuits and gravy for breakfast, and I'll even put a brisket and some baby backs on the smoker and give you a right proper meal and your favorite beer on ice to wash it down with.
To be honest, I've never tried it at 400 yards before; so this would be "fair chase". I've done it at 250, but that's as far as I've shot my Super. So how confident are you of your calling me out on that one?
My Super has some custom touches, but accuracy wise, it's the factory barrel with the factory bushing and link.
Think of it...you HATE MY GUTS...You could have my personal pistol, and you could post pictures of it daily on the Campfire and call me a braggart who couldn't hold up his end. If you lose, I'll pocket the grand and I won't even mention it on the Campfire; it will just be between you and I.
Did somebody mention juvenile? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
And thanks to Dave for having my back today while I was busy at the range.
No prob, Mav. All I had to do yesterday was punch Meg Ryan and make fun of Debbie Gibson here. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Ok Gibson. Since you think you know what you're talking about and have deemed these officer's shooting ability as unacceptable...
Break down the gunfight for me. Distances. Lighting. Cover and concealment. Officers involved. Speed of target. Shooting while moving, shooting while not moving. All of it.
And after you break that down, tell me how it compares to Use of Force statistics around the country.
Go.
Travis Any fugkin' day now, Gibson. Set us straight. Clever Beavis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,980 Likes: 6 |
I find it amusing that some think they know what the hit ratio should be in a gunfight, despite having never been involved in one.
Well that makes 4 regulars of the Campfire who disagree with me, and 3 who were capable of being gentlemen about it (Beavis is still a juvenile). We'll just have to disagree. I don't think you have to have been in a gunfight to know that one hit out of 84 rounds is not a good thing. But you guys (and Beavis) disagree and find it acceptable. Okay then. I have no idea of the conditions and or obstacles involved in this particular gunfight and neither do you. Therefor I have no idea if the hit ratio is justified or not. Slinging lead at the bad guy can keep the bad guy from sling lead back at you. The good guys in the case won, no harm no foul.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,195 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,195 Likes: 7 |
I love this place. More intertaininig then any TV. Lol.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949 |
Im bored and have some time to waste so I thought I would bump this.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,416 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,416 Likes: 6 |
Nice to have somebody like RJM here to tell us how it really is being a cop.
I understand that no Kalifornia police agency will hire anyone who has been in any of the military special forces units. LAPD and other departments will not hire ex Marines. Don't know where you came up with this bit of misinformation, but it's incorrect. The LAPD has traditionally been a Marine Corps "mafia", with LAPD organizations, clubs and fraternal groups made up of former Marines. It's encouraged. Academy training is still based on Marine cadence calls and PT; the student class leader will traditionally be a former Marine. Probably close to 30-40% of the new recruits now have military prior service in their background. Former military get preference in hiring. The department actively recruits on Camp Pendleton, FT Bragg, FT Irwin, etc. Ex-military (including SOF) are encouraged to join and are VERY well treated by the department. They're older with more life experience, which Personnel Div and cadre both realize and desire. Having come from an SOF background with 24+ years on the LAPD, I think I have some insight into our hiring practices. Bob I agree with RGK. Although I'm not that familiar with the recruitment policies of the LAPD, I am familiar with the recruitment policies of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. The LASD has always gone after former military men, whether regular military or special operations members. L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15 |
I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you.
Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.
kevin, I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept. Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says. With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you.
Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.
kevin, I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept. Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says. With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE. Roger that. The LAPD discussed it (usually in roll call training) a lot after the North Hollywood caper, but it was never taught. One of those "once in a 25 year career" happenings that you can't really train for, but someone comes up with a solution at the time that works. Don't remember too many rounds "hosed" all over "the entire zip code". Quite a few controlled pairs fired in tandem, though. Would love to hear how suppressive fire works when someone gets the drop on you. Interesting. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 11/02/15.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15 |
RGK
With your SOF background, I am sure you are quite familiar with the doctrine:
A command and support element, a base of fire element, and a maneuver element.
Obviously METT-TC dependent, but a similar concept would work for LE of they were well versed.
Heck it often happens anyways, the officers just adapt to the dynamics of the present situation, unaware that the concept is a doctrine within Infantry and SOF units.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
kevin,
I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept.
Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says.
With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
It's nothing anyone was actually "teaching or training" it just kinda happened when we were doing force on force. In a few instances it worked and worked well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
kevin,
I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept.
Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says.
With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
It's nothing anyone was actually "teaching or training" it just kinda happened when we were doing force on force. In a few instances it worked and worked well. Nerf wars can get out hand sometimes. Dink
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
well, aside from all the silly tangents, I wonder what is the average hit % for officer-involved shootings?
The reason for asking is, the next time some gun grabber tries to ban hi-cap mags, I think it makes a compelling argument that "...even police officers miss xx% in real encounters. If you only have 6 or 7 shots on hand, you are at risk if confronted by determined or multiple attackers..."
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Cool.
err...not cool, but useful, thanks.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,622 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,622 Likes: 4 |
So are you saying that 84 rounds and one hit is okay? Sure it all turned out just fine in this incident, but what about next time?
Lots of extra humanity in NYC...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave They're better shots than I thought. Either that or most incidents end decisively and those that go wrong, go wrong in a big way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave Do you have a source for that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave Do you have a source for that? What was the hit percentage when you were doing that suppression fire force on force training? Dink
|
|
|
|
|
157 members (257 roberts, 6mmCreedmoor, 1badf350, 470Evans, 16penny, 44mc, 17 invisible),
1,713
guests, and
814
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,651
Posts18,512,655
Members74,010
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://s524.photobucket.com/user/Son_of_the_Gael/media/Alaska%20June%202009%20806_zpshnswrm09.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s524.photobucket.com/user/Son_of_the_Gael/media/Alaska%20June%202009%20814_zpszn71bsun.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image from ]]( https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Trump-Tweet-Image-Im-Just-in-the-Way-e1577149651503.jpg)
