Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Best handgun for civilian self defence.

Except a 17. Better shooter, more ammo on tap, not enough heavier to matter, and since the main print point on a Glock when carried IWB is the rear of the slide, it doesn't print appreciably more.

In regard to my earlier statement about "a big gun and a little gun" I should probably add that I carry the same two handguns off-duty, that I do on duty; a Glock 30 with a modified grip and/or a Ruger LCP.

You're missing out on a great Walter Mitty fantasy life that way.

I'm not sure you're "Mall Ninja" enough to survive. Everyone knows if you don' carry a Glock and have an AR in the trunk, you're just gonna die.

The pistol you shoot the best.

It still amazes me that most other makers don't make a direct competing pistol to the G19. The M&P, XD, and Ruger all have shorter barrels than the G19 and that's their "competition" to the G19. Sig and CZ were smart enough to recognize that Glock hit the ball straight out of the park with the 19. Not that I'm saying the M&P compact isn't a good gun, I think it has better ergos than the G19, but they really should have added that extra 1/2" of slide/barrel! The extra barrel/slide means NOTHING for concealing the pistol, but what a difference it makes to balance, feel, and shootability...yeah pretty subjective, but look at how many people choose the G19...I'm betting they agree with that bit of subjective.

The G19 is a concealed carry masterpiece. No it's not the end all be all of handguns. I still like the ergos of the XD & M&P better, but I want that extra 1/2" of slide/barrel/sight radius. The CZ P07 has the same slide/barrel/sight radius and it's a magnificent little carry piece.

You know, now with the new Army pistol program you'll see "modularity" being THE catch word for years to come. Well one really good piece of "modularity" that S&W could do would be to offer a 3.9" barrel/slide option for the M&P compact.

The MPc compares a lot closer to the Glock 26/27, than it does to the 19/23.

Glock 19 for me although a 4" S&W 686 occasionally gets the nod. They both work well for me and feel "just right" in my hand.

Question for you...exactly what do you want this gun for...concealed carry, all-around defensive handgun... Prefer a revolver or semi-auto? Lifestyle that would allow you to carry a bigger gun...willingness to carry a bigger gun...

Bob

The_Real_Hawkeye - "I would prefer my LW Commander was in .38
Super...".

Many years ago I had a Colt LW Commander in .38Super. At the time, due to how it was head-spaced, accuracy was just marginal. Today I've a Taurus SS 5inch 1911 in .38Super with 'modern' head-spacing and it is very accurate despite what some folks think of the brand. It even shoots my hand-loads from the Colt Commander days very well. Like you, I can't fault the .45ACP

Homesteader.

for the most part, I carry a .45 ACP pistol. 230 grain HydraShock. I am comfortable with a 9mm, or a .38 special, but if that little voice says 'be extra careful today', I take the .45

That's not a quote from me. I think Kevin said that.

Bob,
I started this thread in retaliation for the FBI best pistol cased closed thread.
I think if your life needs protecting a 44 or 45 is preferable to a 9mm wondernine.
I like an N frame smith in the woods or in the house. If I am out and about a J frame is plenty.
If I am attacked by a flash mob or squad of rifleman I will shoot four and save the last one for me.
whelennut

Some of the myopic thinking and attempts to fit things into pre-determined parameters made me think of a thread from a few years back.

Rather than re-type the same thing over again, I am going to just cut and paste.

From the "Assumptions in regards to handguns" thread:

I just got done reading 8 pages of another thread and was not sure if I should be mildly annoyed or amused. Reading the posts it was readily apparent that many posters had some pretty distorted assumptions in regards to the use of firearms in conflict.

Friends this may ruffle a few feathers, but I feel like letting off a bit of steam.

This will likely be a bit random as I do not feel like editing and sorting it all into a nice and neat package.

I would like to offer a different perspective.

Here is a quick and dirty general bio. My entire adult life has centered around the use of martial skills. I started out as a 17 year old infantryman and have never stopped carrying a gun for a living. That path has involved (and still does) a combination of law enforcement, military, competition, and working for the government in other capacities overseas.

A few things to clarify.

Certain military units choose and purchase their own sidearms. They box up their issued handguns and use what they chose. In working around these outfits, the vast majority choose Glocks. Say what you want, most pros choose to shoot Glocks. I love 1911s, but carry an issued Glock at work.

The three most issued handguns to guys who are classified by the government as �operators� are the Glock, the 1911 and the Sig. Like it or not, no matter how great the XD or M&P auto feels in your hands, those three are what are used. They are also what the vast majority of what the pros use in their off time.

A few things about Glocks. They never break or jam until they do. Things go wrong with them. However, they go wrong at a substantially lesser rate than any other handgun I have seen in widespread use, to include high powers, 1911s, berretta, etc.

To think that Glocks are somehow inaccurate is simply wrong. Late yesterday morning after a morning of shooting handgun drills, I needed to empty my magazines that were full of practice ball ammunition and replace them with my issued JHP load. I emptied them into a standard �Izzy� target. I stood at 25 yards and firing slow fire, using the fundamentals of marksmanship, shot roughly 90 rounds into the head of the Izzy. Frankly the gun is far more capable in the accuracy department than I am. 100 yards on a full size silhouette is not much of a challenge for the average B class IPSC shooter.

Don�t believe for a second that 9mm, 45 and 10 mm Glocks are not accurate shooters. On a side note, I have not observed/experienced the same to be true for the .40s for some reason.


People like to attempt to define things such as "self defense" "combat" "offensive", etc. I guess it makes things easier for them to wrap their imagination around. The same goes with distances in which they apparently know they will be engaged or engage someone. Fights do not have parameters. An often quoted saying is that �a handgun is what you use to fight to get to your rifle�. That is a great quote in fantasy land, police academies and for weekend tactical class attendees.

The reality is that quite often the handgun is all you have. Some law enforcement outfits only authorize supervisors to have long guns. Those long guns are often safely locked in the supervisor�s trunk 30 minutes away.

Overseas, a host nation may only permit your unit/outfit to carry handguns within their borders. They may allow long guns, but not at the place you are going to. Sometimes you leave them in the vehicles, sometimes you leave them where you are basing out of. You of course do not want to offend the host nation or whomever. The pattern seems to be that the more stable a country becomes, the less you are likely to be able to access long guns. The simple fact of the matter is that in life usually you have to play by someone else�s rules.

I have stood and sat in meetings that got very heated where the other major players had men armed with long guns, and I was only armed with a handgun that was concealed. That is reality. It is not unusual either. In the vast majority of third world countries, the armed men have no concept of a safety on an AK. They regularly stand around with their finger on the trigger and muzzle sweep everyone in the area. Welcome to working overseas. Not very glamorous is it.



In regards to AKs, they are not even remotely close to as reliable as American shooters have come to believe they are. In regards to M4s, they are not nearly as finicky and supposedly unreliable as some �in the know� people would have you believe. In fact that is probably the single most overblown bunch horse manure in regards to firearms topics I have ever seen.

Thinking that you are only going to use a handgun within only xx amount of feet is phenomenally stupid. I sure would like to know where all the internet experts get their crystal balls at because the guys I work with would sure like to have a few in the team room.

The fact of the matter is fights may start close and engagement distances may increase or vice versa. You may be faced with a threat at bad Haji breath distance or at the end of the trailer park where Joe Bob has decided that he �ain�t goin� back to the joint�, and he has a .270 out the single wide trailer window to make his point.

That brings up another point. �Self defense� versus �combat� versus �law enforcement�. When bullets go to whizzing past your face and that �tick-snap� sound is in the air, all of those stupid definitions don�t really seem to matter. Bullets don�t care, conflict is conflict. Whether a threat is wearing a desert pattern uniform shirt or whatever he got off the rack at Old Navy, it does not matter, bullets just hurt.

Like I tell my baby girl, �you get what you get and you don�t throw a fit�. The fight will not tailor itself to whatever you are wearing that day or what gun you chose or are issued. Fights are what they are. Basically you get to unwrap your present and you are stuck with it.

If you are lucky enough to be able to choose what you carry and actually survive, chances are that little J frame will get relegated to second gun status or ditched all together.

Once again, guys assume that they will get into an �average� fight and everyone else will have read the script. They get on internet boards and state adamantly that what they have is good enough and they need no more, because if they do,� someone has made a real mistake�. I have to assume that when they type that or say it, that they are implying that they never make mistakes or are so tactically aware it will never happen to them.

Guess what! Good guys and gals DO make mistakes. Sometimes they over commit, sometimes they under commit. Sometimes they do not know the bad guy(s) have friends within view. Perhaps the bad guys are approaching from behind or putting the sneak on them using parked cars as concealment, or right around the corner, or getting a pack of smokes at the convenience store, or have 16 insurgent buddies having chai tea on the other side of the donkey shed. There are bad people out there who understand the element of surprise and the use of cover and concealment.

I think I will break off from the writing for now.

I suppose I could write a dissertation on the subject but, I have a sneaking suspicion that a certain number of guys just have to touch the red hot burner instead of being told it is hot and seeing visual indicators. I think I will end this for now. It is getting late here in Haji land and I have stuff to do before I rack out.

Cheers


The part I highlighted in bold still hold true today in that people still want to put their own envisioned scenarios in to nice neat little boxes and have clear definitions to wrap their heads around.

It is pretty rare that what you envision happening and what actually happens are one and the same..

In fact since there was some good dialogue in that thread, I will just bump it up again.

Good stuff, and pretty much true in my limited experience.
Bob

Great post Mackay, thanks for sharing it.

Mr. Sagebrush,
Thank you for your service!
I am 60 years old and have never felt endangered by anyone 25 yds away.
Except when I am on a motorcycle.

Minnesota law requires us to be a reluctant participant. I am required to do everything possible to avoid shooting somebody. So that is how I live my life. I know that must seem very boring and in truth it is.
whelennut

Whelennut,

My Friend it is funny you mentioned motorcycles. I took a ride through Yellowstone a few weeks back and due to $%^$%$#%^$ tourists parking on a blind curve, I came to a power sliding stop so close to an enormous bull buffalo that I quite literally could have reached out and tweaked his nose.

I felt very threatened (and very small). In fact I could not drop gears fast enough to get the freak away from that enormous critter.



So,

This reminds me of an incident that happened roughly 10+ years ago. The short version was that it was a holiday weekend and one in which outlaw biker gangs assembled in one particular park along the snake river.

The short version is that some scumbag bikers thought it would be fun to sit on the canyon rim with a rifle and take pot shots at canoeists and kayakers, a few hundred yards below them. They were in very real danger and due to geographic limitations, even running at triple digits, it was hard to get to their aid in a timely manner.

Though not common, bad stuff can happen at extended ranges.

I have no qualms about longer range practice, and consider it part of my normal marksmanship package. Many would be very surprised how accurate a J frame can be at 50 yards and further.

As a side note, If you can get reasonably proficient at keeping all your hits in the A and C zone of an IPSC target, then 25 yards and in seem pretty darn easy. Plus its fun!

In regards to a boring life, That is what I look forward to the day I hang up my spurs!

I was talking with JWP a while ago. We were discussing some of the topics on the forum here, and handguns of course.

I made mention that while hardware is important, the man behind the gun is paramount.

Though I do not know RGK, I have noted from his comments a wealth of experience. He very much reminds me of a couple of my mentors.

I told JWP that I would rather have a guy like RGK with his LAPD narc and ODA background, armed with "just a J Frame", than a newbie with a Glock 17 and a 30 round mag, when the situation got sporty.

Calmness under pressure and the ability to function at the level of unconscious competence is paramount (in my experience and observation).