Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Getting tired of this

That is exactly what most of us would really like to see!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (except that rifles would be allowed also cuz they were very common then too)

and there in lies another problem . not all traditionalist chose to dress in period artier to hunt ? Why should they ,isn�t it really about hunting with a particular weapon, not a fashion show .
Personally I don�t care how a person dresses, eats , farts or what ever as long as they follow the laws and the base for what those laws were founded upon .
Heck I don�t really even care if you shoot a modern inline with 2000.00 worth of cabalas gortex . Which by the way is not as warm as period clothing unless you want to look like a Hollywood actor then your going to be cold .
As long as that modern weapon is confined to short range capabilities . Open sites , roundball or solid lead conical of bore diameter, lose powder and no smokeless I don�t care what you do . Having an extra season of a few more day in the wood frankly I find to be a poor excuse for the lack of ability to become proficient on a given system .

Im sorry I just don�t get it ? . I think SSE hit it right on the head in another thread when he replied as to why someone would want to use the exampled weapon .
His answer � because center fires are not aloud �. I think that cut strait to the issue at hand for all sides to include the traditionalists

+1.

Except if you hunted with my buddies, you could ignore how they eat and dress, but you'd have to pay attention to the fartin'.

Separate tents......

Got to agree with you on this one too.......I do hunt with a flintlock (rifled) and dress in buckskins, moccasins and 18th century style accessories. If I were suddenly time-warped to 1750......nothing would be out of place.

That's my choice because it pleases me to do it that way. I don't exspect everyone to do as I do. In fact it took me years to step backwards a little at a time and give up my caplock rifles and all modern gear. I have no problem with inline weapons (don't like 'em but will accept them) as long as they are used with open sights and black powder (or equivalent sustitutes). Sabot bullets, shotgun primers and pelleted powder are borderline, but still within the spirit of the special seasons.

However, scope sights and smokeless powder take hings too far. Check out this sight....badbullmuzleloaders.com

That's where this all is headed, a smokeless powder "muzzleloader" that throws a 200 grain bullet at 3150 fps. Think .338 Magnum ballistics.......300 yard (or more) shots are not just possible, but likely. That's NOT within the spirit of the law. If someone wants to use these type of weapons, I have no problem........in the regular gun season. To ask that the same weapon be allowed in the special black powder seasons is not OK. These guns are clearly designed to circumvent the spirit of the muzzleloader laws and qualify on a technicality.

Sure I wish more people would wear period clothing and use historically correct weapons.....I believe they would get more enjoyment out of the sport......but that's personal decision. However, the line on "improvements" must be drawn somewhere or we run the risk of losing the special seasons that we worked so hard to gain. If this "improvement" is allowed.....we might as well open the regular season a month early. That's not going to happen. If we don't stop this movement now we lose all.

I think you are right about smokeless powder and scopes, however there is no way I'm giving up my fiber optic sights on my TC Renegade .54, and yes I cast the roundballs myself!

Ever seen one or shot one? Know of anyone who owns one? Neither do I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Do you believe the ballistics just because they are on a web page?

Consider the cost, what they weigh, and what the recoil pulse is-- it is not as glittery as you might think.

Any heavy, .45 caliber projectile is not going to shoot particularly flat. Even a .458 WinMag is not a "long range weapon." You don't see too many folks trying to hot rod .45-70's-- high velocity low BC bullets just aren't in the cards for long range work.

The same goes with 4 pellet / 5 pellet shooters. Recoil takes the fun away-- unshootable for most, and still not that flat. Sure, printing MV's gets your attention-- that's what it is supposed to do. Printing winddrift @ 300 yards won't cut it; making a .308 looking like the ultimate firearm comparatively.

No muzzleloader compares with a even a .30-30 favorably in external ballistics, using Hornady LeveRevolution ammo. MV sounds great-- as long as your target is at the muzzle.

But, it got your attention-- just as it was supposed to.

Im thinking that if they hired you tonight you would be singing a different song in the morning . that�s what im thinking .

i seem to recall a time one people said much the same thing about today�s common modern designs . .

do we need to sa that smokeless not to long ago had the same stigmas of WHY? . smokeless cant be used its un safe .

someone has to be the inventor of the next step

Then, you're thinking incorrectly-- or just not thinking.

After two weeks here, surely you could find something a bit more contributory other than mangled English and personal comments?

Hey Randy ,
I've never heard you say that " smokeless makes you nervous " ....... even after all the expirence you have with the 10 ML II ? ....... I just picked one up , and have saved all the documented research I can find that you have posted . I'm still gathering the powders / primers / bullet / sabot combinations I want to try out . Maybe next weekend I'll put in some range time with'er . Nothing fancy , just a shooter/hunter :

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Of course not. Maybe there are few still wondering how shotshells work?

Pet Loads

To this day, 42 - 44 gr. 5744, a 300 gr. std. .452 XTP, and the std. short MMP sabot is what Henry Ball & Co. use year after year.

If you can hit it, you can eat it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree on both counts, as I said above the best I can get out of my 7mm WSM is 3150 with 160 grain bullets. So I'm not convinced that this is realistic or doable for the masses.

And there sure are limitations to what you can do with a fat bullet, the physics being what they are. BUT....

Mark my words, the next big area of "research" and new products for MLs will be on thicker-walled sabots to shoot smaller-diameter bullets, and the bullets will be spitzers with plastic tips. I'm surprised we haven't seen this yet. Maybe this research is going on right now and I'm just not aware of it.

So, when we get there, then what?

Every one acts like the inline's are going to create a deer slaughter. Here in Arkansas I am allowed four deer whether I kill them with a bow, inline, flintlock or modern rifle. I can set on my stand and kill two bucks and two does with my 7mm08 or I can let some of them walk and try to kill them by another method. As long as it is legal, I will use what I want to and you can do the same. If they change the rules, I will change my way of doing things. They will not change very much until more deer are being killed or the herd goes way down. Everybody needs to get out of the "do it my way or quit" mind set. miles

they are being marketed smoke pole . the main draw back however is the cost , they are IMO extremely expensive

no wakeman i just see you for what you are .

Miles, if you go back and read many of the posts, not many are complaining about in-lines. I own two myself. What we're talking about is all the other stuff that goes into making a muzzleloader a "long range" weapon. That, and whether "long range muzzleloaders" are appropriate for special muzzleloader seasons.

If the manufacturers and people who make a living off of marketing all this new stuff keep at it and there are no restrictions on equipment, before you know it special seasons for muzzleloaders will be an anachronism.

The place for today's most "advanced" muzzleloaders is in the general firearms seasons IMO. If the advocates of these rifles would stick to those seasons and quit trying to get the states to change their laws and allow anything and everything during special seasons we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yeah cap, I know but I'm talking about something that's closer to .30 caliber that can take advantage of 3,000 fps downrange, more akin to a centerfire bullet.

I bet some folks are working on it right now, I can see the advertisemnents in Field and Stream...

i wonder thought ? how many states have a min. cal law for big game ? 45 cal is the min here and some are talking now of making it 50 .

Well, if that's the bullet and not the bore size, I'm all for it.

Me too. I see him as a helpful and well informed gentleman. You, on the other hand, are not looking too good. Perhaps, it's a misconception you can clear up with your future posts.

Here's a variation on that theme. They've been around a few years. I've tried these but another bullet from the same company shoots better in my gun. That comes by scant load developement. Another powder might change my tune.