Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Getting tired of this

Why the fuss about traditional vs inline?Both ARE muzzleloaders, both misfire occasionally, both are subject to the same principals of ignition and operation ( with allowances made for spark chuckers of course)both will miss if improperly aimed. I shoot a repop P-53 Enfield rifle musket as well as a T/C Omega and my 16 year old daughter hunts exclusively with a scoped Traditions Tracker with which she has been good enough to bag 2 deer with 2 shot at 100 and 115 yards.We are happy with our ordnance and we do not feel any negatives about hunting with these rifles. Although smokeless in a muzzleloader is safe in one designed for it I am nervous about them. However I would never make a negative comment to or about a brother hunter so armed.His use does not in any way positively or negatively impact my day in the woods. Game animals are not targets and as elementary as it sounds they bleed and feel pain.If a hunter decides to use a modern inline ( btw the first inline system was patented in the 1830's I read somewhere) and sabots ( which the artillery has been using for 500 years) to give him or her a chance to put that animal down quickly and cleanly then BRAVO. Kudos as well to the more traditional (and probably more experienced) shooter who taps off a round ball or minie.Inlines can also be an entry level tool as well.Minimum expense to see if the " muzzleloader game " is all its cracked up to be.I know more than a few who started with inlines and went to sidelocks or sparkchuckers.The same can bee seen in archery circles with the resurgence of recurves an long bows.Heck , I giggle every year about the guys who look down their noses at my Marlin 336 . 30-30 until they see th sub inch 3 rounders it shoots at 100 yards and some are still slack jawed at how fast a deer drops to a nice pokey 'ol 150 round nose. Could we all try to get to the point where our personal preferences and experiences are just that? We can and should share them ( the greatest storytellers are hunters) and laugh at the misses and rejoice in the kill.Lets give the DNR's and F&G people a break too, their's is a tough row to hoe.Satisfy the traditionalists as well as the moderns and allow for weapons,loads and sights that will also minimize the number of crippled and wounded deer running around after each season.Shoot whats legal, shoot what you like and if you see someone lugging something different than yours ask them how they like it and smile that there's another person who pays the way for wildlife and wild places JUST LIKE YOU DO...Thanks for the opportunity to rank abit...

I agree with your post whole heartedly, but you know that there will be some that feels that if you don't do it the same as them, it's wrong and should be banned. miles

Now that just makes to much flippin sense man,,,,,,,,but I shure do agree,,,problem is people are out to stir the pot and make a buck and other people are all to happy to jump on in,,

Good post.

Very Very Very well said NO BUTS ABOUT IT !!!!! I say again,,,,, VERY WELL SAID. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ABSOLUTELY!! Nicely done.

Yup, so am I. Well said Double30.


Check your PM's Double30 . . .

I agree whole heartly,but right now there are traditionalist who are stired up over the toby thing.They are at war right now.They are not only doing their best to support the states that dont allow scopes but they are now emailing and writing states that have nothing to do with it.They want scopes,sabots and all smokeless out of muzzleloader seasons.They would like nothing better than to ban inlines from all muzzle loader seasons and have gone as far as wanting them even out of shotgun sesons.they are emailing and writing every state.
I have 5 trad guns and 1 inline and i could care less whats going on out west or any other state but when they start messing with what we have enjoyed in my state for the past 20 years i get a little teedoff.
Maybe its time we as muzzleloader hunters started thinking about whats good for all of us not just a greedy few who want it their way cause they just dont want to share the woods or the tags.The hard core trad crowd right now are at war with inlines in a most serious manner.Will it be their last stand or will they finaly get what they want.We can set back and wait if we want,hoping they will be seen as the greedy people they are or we can try and fix the damage before it happens.
Maybe all of us as muzzleloader hunters who belive in freedom of choice need to form a group or join one.At present i belong to no group or assocaition.

Once upon a time there was a deer hunting season. Then some traditional minded folks in various locations around the country got together and persuaded many states to institute muzzleloader seasons for certain game.

Since then, in an effort to lure hunters to extra days afield after their game of choice, a sizeable industry has burgeoned, which has sought and accomplished production of a firearm, which does load from the muzzle, but which also uses newly designed propellants, projectiles, ignition and sighting systems. The end result is that past about 100, or so, yards the external ballistics is more akin to centerfire firearms. With some variations, most States have allowed the use of these "muzzleloaders" in the seasons which were originally intended for real muzzleloaders.

That started a slow simmering feud. Now, some inline proponents are beginning to lobby some States to alter their regs to allow inlines with additional modern capabilities. One of them has even insinuated that the patched round ball be re-visited for its continued use afield.

The traditional minded folks have had it and will now wage a relentless campaign to return the muzzleloading season to the implement for with it was intended.

Regards, sse

I thought that it was intended for an implement that loaded from the muzzle. miles

miles - If you're not being sarcastic, then you're simply mistaken. The season wasn't intended for something that didn't exist at the time the regs were promulgated.

Regards, sse

Yes,but these inlines have been in some of the season for 20 years now.Inline shooters have been scorned and called just about every thing in the book since the internet has taken off.Some of us have had it also.I now know what group i will be a part of.Right now most muzzeloader shooters are not standing togeather.Maybe that will change someday when every one accepts that we should have a freedom of choice when it comes to muzzleloader season.Your gonna have a tuff road ahead of you once the word gets out just what you guys have plained for the rest of us.

Man, I couldn't agree with you more. I just want to tell the folks who don't believe all "muzzeloaders" are ok, to 'STAY THE HELL OUT OF ARIZONA". Go cry somewhere else!

Jerry

Double 30 said....."( btw the first inline system was patented in the 1830's I read somewhere)"

Am thinkin' this is something that's been missed by lotsa folks in this fray.....be curious to know the exact facts associated with that.

Also wonderin', if back in the day, the matchlock savy folks made a bitch fest over the advent of the flintlock for meat gatherin' use....or the flinters made a fuss over the advent of the percussion cap...

The transition to breech loaded cartridge weapons musta raised a stink with the front stuffers...if the logic held today holds true.

Those Civil War Guys musta sat 'round the Ol' Campfire all bowed up and favorin' their sore balls whinin', "Those darn centerfire cartridge repeaters are gonna bring this war to ruin....."

I'd rather sit on the porch for a week and listen to 15 old women nag on their old men and bitch about their ailments with a sharp stick in my eye than listen to this stupid traditional vs. modern "argument".

I was being sarcastic. As long as my state say's that I can use an Inline, that is what I will do. I use a muzzleloader to extend my season, not so I can spend a lot of time cussing and cleaning. I have killed them with sidelocks and with inlines and also with a crossbow ( that makes the bow hunters mad). The deer don't seem to give a damn. miles

I don't care what anyone shoots. If it loads from the front it is a muzzleloader in my eyes and that even goes for the smokeless shooters. I hate the I'm better than you attitude. Can't we all just get along. We are all out there for the same reason. We want to do things differently, some just chose to do it easier than others. This I'm better than you reminds me of the same BS that the "purist" fly fisherman do to other trout fisherman who use hardware and worms. It don't cut it in my book.

I don�t think it�s a better then you attitude ,.IMO that�s just another excuse such ask wearing dead mans cloths or leather under wear .
Myself ? Well to its a question of why do we
�chose� to shoot muzzleloaders ?
If its to get another season ? Simply comply with the reasons for that season and why they were established in your area .
If its to get another animal ? Then push for a longer general rifle season .

If its to experience the hunt with all the complications ,uncertainties and short range of a weapon then why add all the new fangled gadgets to take away from that ?

Here we go again! I live in Pennsylvania and we have a flintlock only season after Christmas.Used to be round balls only.Now the allow fiber op sights but not apertures ( too modern?)and now you may use rb's minies , maxi's and sabots. I use my inlines in the early antlerless season and in the special regulation areas( shotgun or frontstuffer only).The nice thing about any muzzleloader is that it does force you to pick your shots carefully and it is more relaxing to me anyway.I take the time in between shot to swab her out and replay the shot in my mind.It also gives me a chance to get my pulse rate back int the double digit range.Like it or not in an area of heavy hunting pressure , someone with a muzzleloader is at a severe disadvantage in the woods loaded with breechloaders.In the event of a dead deer running or a questionable hit there is no fast second shot.Unfortunately deer hunting on public land can be quite competitive ( shame on us all for that).I havent seen that tendency in the muzzleloader community in the 10 years I've been using them.It almost seems that people equate modern muzzleloaders with single shot breechloaders.Not a good comparison.In fact , after nearly 10 years as a Confederate reenactor I can , with an empty Enfield rifle musket at shoulder arms,load aim and fire in 19 seconds.I can get 3 rounds per minute without breaking a sweat and can hit with every round.I cannot equal that rate of fire with my Omega.I limit myself to shots no farther than 125 yards.To me shooting past that with muzzle or breech loader is more shooting than hunting and most of my kills with either weapon are under 50 yards. We do ourselves and our sport great disservice and injury by way of this arguement .We all wind up looking foolish.If a specific season was set up for a specific purpose then work within it.In fairness though , these game agencies use these seasons for controlling game populations.Specifing weapon types is a happy benifit to them achieving their goals else they might have lessened the firearms season to compensate for the muzzleloader kills.And Captchee I'm sorry to say all the complications , uncertainties and short range limitations ( for the average hunter) still exist for the inliner.I have found that it is easier to get an accurate load developed for my Enfield than it was for either my Daughter's Traditions Tracker or my Omega.We all need to examine our motives and expectations here before we gather ourselves a whopping black eye.

Double30
so why then not use your enfeild ?



you are most certainly correct about that . but only when confined to reason .
In fact IMO if the modern weapon is confined to the same loads as traditional ones , IE PRB . Solid lead bore size conical , open sights , exposed ignition . Traditional weapons are far superior . Well I should say most


If you add in , palletized powders , stingers , sabots carrying specialized long range bullets . Add on variable scope , smokeless powder and I would have to disagree whole hardily

so are they gonna ban compound bows during archery season?
i want a special season for people who hunt w/ a cue ball in a wool sock.

Compound bows? Well, I used to hunt with a compound. My accuracy range was set at 25 yards for optimum and I didn't exceed that. Now, I hunt with a long bow and my accuracy range is 20 yards and I won't exceed that. Yup. That compares quite favorably with 75 to 100 yards vs 175 to 200 yards...as the manufacturers claim.

Of course, then there's that argument that the pioneers would have used them if they'd have had them. True. But they also used punt guns and small howitzers to take 100 ducks at a time. Oh, and that neat argument that inlines were invented in 1830. They really caught on didn't they? It took modern manufacturing and components to make them viable and now they are certainly viable. Not all modern muzzleloaders fit into this category, but most of the ones I talk to went to inlines because they thought they were easier to clean.

Dan

you have it now . its called the general any weapons season , use a fly swatter if you like just make sure it has the correct let off and hydraulic activation as well as pressure relief valves . Maybe self propelled so you don�t have to pack it . you of course will need the most Up to date computer softwear so all you have to do is input a photo or drawing of the intended target and let it go .
Satellite imagery linked to a TADS would also be recommended . One must take the most advantage of the laser sighting system
then let her go . Hang out around camp , have a few , itll be back LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

just kidding , just kinda struck me as funny , nothing personal



i dont know . i doubt very much anyone that i have heard is talking of banning any weapon to include compounds a or modern muzzleloading firearms.
I can say I have heard much the same disagreement with the archers . Seems there are so many modern gadgets coming out , optics , laser sights . Mechanisms that will hold the bow at full draw . Shoulder mounts . Some of the new designs and I don�t know for sure , but I have been told have 80 , 85% let off ..
So I would expect that you will see restrictions in some states concerning what can and can not be used in both modern muzzleloading and archery

I'm going to petition the game & fish where you hunt. You are taking unfair advantage, you got to use a cotton sock to be fair. miles

Why don't we all just stay out of the woods and kill things from our PC's. in our living rooms <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

To no one in particular...

I don't know how big game seasons are set-up in other states, but in Minnesota the muzzleloader deer season offers a huge incentive to the hunter. The incentives are in place because of the supposed "limitations" of the method. Minnesota allows inlines, but no scopes or smokeless powder.

This year the regular firearm season for the zone I hunt has two options - a 2-day season (Nov. 4-5) or a 4-day season (Nov. 11-14). The tag is good for one buck OR one doe via a lottery. The area I hunt is slug only.

The muzzleloader season for the exact same area is 16-days (Nov. 25 - Dec. 10). The tag is good for either sex.

While I'm all for the special muzzleloader season, as the performance level between slug guns and inlines blurs, the huge difference in the two seasons looks pretty silly.

Give the above, I'm interested in what "hi-tech" inline hunters think is fair.

I think the fair thing is for you to get an Inline, sidelock or flintlock (your choice) and go hunting. miles

happening sir .
a few months ago i remember a article , I have its somewhere ??? But anyway , this company set up canned hunts . You paid your fee. They had a camera set from a hunting blind . These blinds were spread out over different areas .
These were direct links mind you .
It was basically like playing a video game . Set the cross hairs and shoot .
As I recall the fee included a taxidermy cost as well as shipping of meat to your location .
What caught my eye was that the state this was set up in was trying to shut them down for not providing hunting licenses and tags .
The company was saying that this these were canned hunts , for private raised game . on private property .
That their customer by law were not in the state hunting and there for did not need to comply with state regulations .
Ya it was a heck of a deal .
Even had an interview with a customer who said basically that he didn�t have the time to go out and actually do a guided hunt . This way he felt he could get the experience on his lunch hour or in the evenings

That's exactly what I was referring to. Fits right in with allot of the whinning going on in several of the threads. Keep on fighting guys,,,,that's what the anti's are looking for.!!!!!!!!

ya really you guys thought i was kidding . here you go


do a google search for remote control hunting you wil find you get 4,760,000 hits on the subject <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I know an ex cop who was shot in the neck and is paralyzed from the neck down. His dad created a hunting chair that is equipped with a gun vise that is electronically controlled. Using a toggle arrangement, the young man can move the rifle and zero a target. Sipping on a plastic tube will fire the weapon. He shot a 10 point buck the first time it was used on a private farm! There isn't anyone who cannot go hunting if they want to and lots of organizations that will help them get there and do it - and even push their chairs!

Dan

i agree dan . but isn�t that really completely different ?
I have no problem with truly handicap folks doing what they need to and using technologies to keep them active .

Most states have too many deer. In Mississippi you can use centerfire rifles in the primitive weapons season. Cross Bows are becoming legal everywhere. The number of people hunting goes down every year. Let people use what they want.

one has to be careful with that broad view . while its true many eastern states are having a problem with whitetail . At the same time many other states are not having a problem and in fact have areas where the populations are in trouble .
As to less hunters .
Maybe true in your location but again not true everywhere .
One statement that always gets me is
Hunter numbers are down !!
You have to look real hard at this statement and find out , down compared to what .
Down compared to the actual numbers 10 years ago ?
The Idaho fish and game is well know for this statement when they want a pay or tag increase.
When you actual look to find the comparisons they use one finds it compared to % of population .
This makes the statement true
when you see actual tag numbers have never been higher .
So just another wording we need to better understand

Here in OR. tag sales are down from 20 yr.s or so ago (emperically)...Population has grown by 20%...early 90's, dog hunting for cougers and bears (baiting also) outlawed through a voter referundum..."Beware of the tyranny of the majority". Better get our [bleep] together if we want to pass on any opportunities to our grandkids.
My $.02

"I'd rather sit on the porch for a week and listen to 15 old women nag on their old men and bitch about their ailments with a sharp stick in my eye than listen to this stupid traditional vs. modern "argument".

I think WW's comment pretty well sums it up, from my point of view, anyway.

well said, bro....

GTC

Cap, I'm bad at nuance. I was referring to the idiot who is offering internet hunting to people who cannot get to the woods. My anecdote was to show that there is no such thing. If Mike can get to the woods, anyone can.

Dan

Cap' I prefer aperture sights on my muzzleloaders and my Enfield is my re-enactment rifle.Her issue sights hit 4 inches left at 50 yards and are not windage adjustable in any way and modifications out of issue standard are a no-no.Also she's a big girl ( 39 inch barrel 10 lbs)with alot of worn blueing and honorable scars from many a bloody field...After 2000 blank rounds and 2500 ball rounds she's NEVER misfired including several battles fought in the rain.She hangs on the living room wall over skull/rack of her first kill , a nice 6pt buck.50 yard shoulder shot. Lyman 575-213OS Bore butter lube 60 gr Swiss 3f.

Just tap that front sight an itty bit left

Cant. Front sight is a solid piece soldered to the barrel and doubles as the bayonet lug...( Co. E 1st Texas Volunteer Infantry C.S.A.)

not much smaller then my de Chase which has a 44 inch barrel .
if your that far off at 50 then i would suggest taking it to a good black powder gunsmith and having it fixed to shoot correctly . you should have no problem centering an Enfield.
i can tell ya how to do it the right way . but PM me as it may scare ya a little.
Had a fella a couple years back bring me a SXS that some fella had tried to blue with a torch. I kid you not the barrel was 1 � high at the muzzle , looked like a banana.
Fixed her right up. He went out the next weekend did fine shooting clays ..

I have a sidelock and an inline, and I think if the traditionalists want to do it the old timey way they should all have to use flintlock muskets with no rifling. They should also have to wear "period clothing" so they look really authentic while they freeze their butts off!

That is exactly what most of us would really like to see!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (except that rifles would be allowed also cuz they were very common then too)

and there in lies another problem . not all traditionalist chose to dress in period artier to hunt ? Why should they ,isn�t it really about hunting with a particular weapon, not a fashion show .
Personally I don�t care how a person dresses, eats , farts or what ever as long as they follow the laws and the base for what those laws were founded upon .
Heck I don�t really even care if you shoot a modern inline with 2000.00 worth of cabalas gortex . Which by the way is not as warm as period clothing unless you want to look like a Hollywood actor then your going to be cold .
As long as that modern weapon is confined to short range capabilities . Open sites , roundball or solid lead conical of bore diameter, lose powder and no smokeless I don�t care what you do . Having an extra season of a few more day in the wood frankly I find to be a poor excuse for the lack of ability to become proficient on a given system .

Im sorry I just don�t get it ? . I think SSE hit it right on the head in another thread when he replied as to why someone would want to use the exampled weapon .
His answer � because center fires are not aloud �. I think that cut strait to the issue at hand for all sides to include the traditionalists

+1.

Except if you hunted with my buddies, you could ignore how they eat and dress, but you'd have to pay attention to the fartin'.

Separate tents......

Got to agree with you on this one too.......I do hunt with a flintlock (rifled) and dress in buckskins, moccasins and 18th century style accessories. If I were suddenly time-warped to 1750......nothing would be out of place.

That's my choice because it pleases me to do it that way. I don't exspect everyone to do as I do. In fact it took me years to step backwards a little at a time and give up my caplock rifles and all modern gear. I have no problem with inline weapons (don't like 'em but will accept them) as long as they are used with open sights and black powder (or equivalent sustitutes). Sabot bullets, shotgun primers and pelleted powder are borderline, but still within the spirit of the special seasons.

However, scope sights and smokeless powder take hings too far. Check out this sight....badbullmuzleloaders.com

That's where this all is headed, a smokeless powder "muzzleloader" that throws a 200 grain bullet at 3150 fps. Think .338 Magnum ballistics.......300 yard (or more) shots are not just possible, but likely. That's NOT within the spirit of the law. If someone wants to use these type of weapons, I have no problem........in the regular gun season. To ask that the same weapon be allowed in the special black powder seasons is not OK. These guns are clearly designed to circumvent the spirit of the muzzleloader laws and qualify on a technicality.

Sure I wish more people would wear period clothing and use historically correct weapons.....I believe they would get more enjoyment out of the sport......but that's personal decision. However, the line on "improvements" must be drawn somewhere or we run the risk of losing the special seasons that we worked so hard to gain. If this "improvement" is allowed.....we might as well open the regular season a month early. That's not going to happen. If we don't stop this movement now we lose all.

I think you are right about smokeless powder and scopes, however there is no way I'm giving up my fiber optic sights on my TC Renegade .54, and yes I cast the roundballs myself!

Ever seen one or shot one? Know of anyone who owns one? Neither do I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Do you believe the ballistics just because they are on a web page?

Consider the cost, what they weigh, and what the recoil pulse is-- it is not as glittery as you might think.

Any heavy, .45 caliber projectile is not going to shoot particularly flat. Even a .458 WinMag is not a "long range weapon." You don't see too many folks trying to hot rod .45-70's-- high velocity low BC bullets just aren't in the cards for long range work.

The same goes with 4 pellet / 5 pellet shooters. Recoil takes the fun away-- unshootable for most, and still not that flat. Sure, printing MV's gets your attention-- that's what it is supposed to do. Printing winddrift @ 300 yards won't cut it; making a .308 looking like the ultimate firearm comparatively.

No muzzleloader compares with a even a .30-30 favorably in external ballistics, using Hornady LeveRevolution ammo. MV sounds great-- as long as your target is at the muzzle.

But, it got your attention-- just as it was supposed to.

Im thinking that if they hired you tonight you would be singing a different song in the morning . that�s what im thinking .

i seem to recall a time one people said much the same thing about today�s common modern designs . .

do we need to sa that smokeless not to long ago had the same stigmas of WHY? . smokeless cant be used its un safe .

someone has to be the inventor of the next step

Then, you're thinking incorrectly-- or just not thinking.

After two weeks here, surely you could find something a bit more contributory other than mangled English and personal comments?

Hey Randy ,
I've never heard you say that " smokeless makes you nervous " ....... even after all the expirence you have with the 10 ML II ? ....... I just picked one up , and have saved all the documented research I can find that you have posted . I'm still gathering the powders / primers / bullet / sabot combinations I want to try out . Maybe next weekend I'll put in some range time with'er . Nothing fancy , just a shooter/hunter :

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Of course not. Maybe there are few still wondering how shotshells work?

Pet Loads

To this day, 42 - 44 gr. 5744, a 300 gr. std. .452 XTP, and the std. short MMP sabot is what Henry Ball & Co. use year after year.

If you can hit it, you can eat it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree on both counts, as I said above the best I can get out of my 7mm WSM is 3150 with 160 grain bullets. So I'm not convinced that this is realistic or doable for the masses.

And there sure are limitations to what you can do with a fat bullet, the physics being what they are. BUT....

Mark my words, the next big area of "research" and new products for MLs will be on thicker-walled sabots to shoot smaller-diameter bullets, and the bullets will be spitzers with plastic tips. I'm surprised we haven't seen this yet. Maybe this research is going on right now and I'm just not aware of it.

So, when we get there, then what?

Every one acts like the inline's are going to create a deer slaughter. Here in Arkansas I am allowed four deer whether I kill them with a bow, inline, flintlock or modern rifle. I can set on my stand and kill two bucks and two does with my 7mm08 or I can let some of them walk and try to kill them by another method. As long as it is legal, I will use what I want to and you can do the same. If they change the rules, I will change my way of doing things. They will not change very much until more deer are being killed or the herd goes way down. Everybody needs to get out of the "do it my way or quit" mind set. miles

they are being marketed smoke pole . the main draw back however is the cost , they are IMO extremely expensive

no wakeman i just see you for what you are .

Miles, if you go back and read many of the posts, not many are complaining about in-lines. I own two myself. What we're talking about is all the other stuff that goes into making a muzzleloader a "long range" weapon. That, and whether "long range muzzleloaders" are appropriate for special muzzleloader seasons.

If the manufacturers and people who make a living off of marketing all this new stuff keep at it and there are no restrictions on equipment, before you know it special seasons for muzzleloaders will be an anachronism.

The place for today's most "advanced" muzzleloaders is in the general firearms seasons IMO. If the advocates of these rifles would stick to those seasons and quit trying to get the states to change their laws and allow anything and everything during special seasons we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yeah cap, I know but I'm talking about something that's closer to .30 caliber that can take advantage of 3,000 fps downrange, more akin to a centerfire bullet.

I bet some folks are working on it right now, I can see the advertisemnents in Field and Stream...

i wonder thought ? how many states have a min. cal law for big game ? 45 cal is the min here and some are talking now of making it 50 .

Well, if that's the bullet and not the bore size, I'm all for it.

Me too. I see him as a helpful and well informed gentleman. You, on the other hand, are not looking too good. Perhaps, it's a misconception you can clear up with your future posts.

Here's a variation on that theme. They've been around a few years. I've tried these but another bullet from the same company shoots better in my gun. That comes by scant load developement. Another powder might change my tune.

Just out of curiosity, what was the bullet diameter andthe bore size?

well rick im sorry you feel that way but when it comes to wakeman you will find a challenge from me concerning him on every turn. see i know him . we have chatted more then couple times .
.

Personally I wouldn�t ever divide you from you choice . I once was just like you but one day I saw the real randy .

You will to

so i guess you and I , will for now just have to agree to disagree . i have no problem with that .
i my reason for being here isn�t to constantly badger wakeman even thought right now it may look that way
Be safe

Hot diddle, I love these Neverending Threads on subjects of small note! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't care what you use.

No inline will ever grace my locker. I'm a better hunter and shooter than that. I'm starting to think that even caplocks are too modern. More'n a few of you that would profit from a season behind a flinter in the forests. JMO.

Use what you want, I won't insult you for it.

Don't ask me to think the ballistics of inlines are like...wow-neat. They ain't.

A friend of mine catches pigs bare handed.
Thinks spear hunters are a bunch of wussies. He may be right or wrong, but he doesn't care what you do.


A bloomin' Luddite

Yeah, it'll be a "subject of small note" right up until they cancel the special ML seasons because bowhunters and centerfire hunters get fed up with all the "advancements" in muzzleloading to use an oxymoron.

And if you don't care what other people use, why the jab at in-lines?

"Use what you want, I won't insult you for it" and "No inline will ever grace my locker. I'm a better hunter and shooter than that" don't seem to add up.

Personally I think you could profit from a few seasons with a longbow. JMO.

Been there, done that. Quail.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Nothing Freudian about it, Dan.

I suppose you�re right in that 99.5% of the topics discussed on this forum could be considered �of little note� in the grand scheme of things. So it always cracks me up when someone who splits mouse hairs and waxes eloquent on his favorite subject(s) wades into a discussion and dismisses someone else�s favorite subjects as �of little note.�

A little presumptuous, don�t you think?

You may know where I�m headed with this, but just in case you don't, try this on for size:

"virtually all bullets leave the barrel with AT LEAST two precession cycles at play, fast and slow. The two of them together are called an epicyclic precession and if the pattern the bullet nose makes were put into two dimensions on a piece of paper it would look like a rosette pattern, or a larger radius circle with short radius loops about the circumference. The slow or large radius precession is proportional to gyroscopic stability factors and will not null during the course of the bullet's flight. The small loops/fast cycle precession results from the bullet being unbalanced on the longitudinal axis...being freed from rotating on the center axis while in the barrel and then adjusting to rotation on the center of gravity(longitudinal). The fast cycle precession WILL null in less than 200 yards, usually a fair bit less...figure 125-150 yards from what I've read, give or take, more or less. Precession yaw is measured in degrees, or small fractions thereof, having deliterious effect on BC and resulting in a deflection. The net effect of these gymnastics is that bullets fly in a path that resembles a helix though it is not the proper term to describe it..."


Sound familiar? You post stuff like that and then turn around and tell me that a discussion of muzzleloaders, modern equipment, and special seasons is "of little note??"

Now I will say that I�ve read some of your posts like the one above and I find them informative and interesting. But I could just as easily dismiss them as �of little note.� Like the one above and the thread a while back that discussed detailed chronograph testing of various bullets to derive BCs and see if they were a few decimal points different than published BCs. Interesting and informative, but to me �of little note� because if I wanted to, I could do like millions of other guys and stick to off-the-shelf rifles and factory ammo., shoot 2 inch groups, and get my deer or elk every year. Or I could continue to do as I do, handload, shoot sub-m.o.a., and never worry about the accuracy of published BCs or even own a chronograph. Much less the "precession cycles at play."

But all of this is beside the point, let me tell you why I think the subject of this particular thread is not �of little note.� I really do think that all of the modern ML equipment hitting the market will put the special early muzzleloader seasons at risk. And I love to hunt during those seasons; here in CO the early ML season is in mid-September and is my favorite time of the year to be in the mountains. Bull elk are bugling, the aspens are turning yellow, and mountain brook trout are in their full spawning colors. The nights are cold, but the days are still warm. If the state did away with the early ML season, I�d hunt with a bow, but I�d rather use a muzzleloader. I�d like to keep the special season just as it is.

Now if all the manufacturers, marketers, and promoters of this modern ML stuff would just leave it up to the individual states to set their own regulations and restrict equipment as they see fit, no problem. But when the purveyors of this stuff talk about how the states are discriminating against them and infringing on their rights to hunt with whatever equipment they choose, I throw the BS flag. They can already hunt with whatever equipment they choose, they just can�t do it during the special early seasons.

The special early seasons were instituted for hunters using equipment that puts them at a disadvantage compared to modern firearms. We should keep it that way, and if we have to do it through regulations, so be it. If I�m allowed to hunt before the centerfire rifle toters, and allowed to hunt during the elk rut, I should be willing to pay for that privilege by restricting my equipment. One can argue about the scope of the restrictions, but to say that everything should be allowed or it�s �discrimination� is just plain, old-fashioned B.S.

Personally, if I was to hunt during the early ML season and use a weapon that was effective at 200 yards with just a little practice, I�d feel guilty, and I�d know that I was violating the original intent of the special season.

And I�m not saying that I�m better or more ethical than other hunters; I also hunt with a long bow and a WSM. I just think that each has its own appropriate time, place, and season.

So, if you disagree with that and think that the special seasons are not an issue, then tell me why. But don�t tell me that my special seasons are of little note.

Smokie, you're preachin' to the choir buddy...and crackin' me up wit dat quote up thar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK...I'll pull down my drawers a little and give any who want it a shot at my azz on the subject. I am sad to report that the quote above IS mine, and it is unfortunately totally correct, anal retentive, and made in an effort to help folks understand what their bullets do. Little details matter in that world. Do I care a great deal if anybody else cares? Not my job.

Ready, Aim, Fire!

First off, let me tell you all that this is an opinion, based in part of facts as I know them. It is an opinion I hold close to MY heart, not yours necessarily. Paraphrasing my sentiment on the post, I'm not going to show flagrant disrespect for one's choice of arms, so those feeling sensitive on the debate kick back and relax...a little...if you can. This debate is hysterical, the issues are less so.

A year or so back I retrieved some old magazines, dating from the early 60s, GD, OL, SA, those sorta things that mom and dad had saved over the decades...because I had. I did a few synopsis reports on several of them here in the Campfire. Askins, O'Conner, Keith and their geishas(yeah, that too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) Along the way I was reacquainted with aritcles long forgotten and reminded that the world of front stuffin' guns had never really died out. Dozens of articals on the subject, those boys competing with everyone else in the general season, and with themselves.

Well, this was before the time of modern in-line guns of course but they were fun then, fun now. Archery was undergoing a revival too under the tutelage of Fred Bear. Somewhere along the way somebody somewhere had the idea to create a 'special' season for these primitive weapons. In my world the bow was first, MLs second to that occurence. Bows were long or recurved, MLs use black and caps, or flint, and except for rare circumstance they shot round balls.

Human nature being what it is in a free market society it did not take a lot of time for the widget makers to crawl out from under a rock and start muckin' things up. Compound bows, in-line rifles...primitive??? Not in this life. Effective? Damn right. Too effective? I don't think so. Illustrating that too many seek salvation in the world of HI-TECH as a panacea to misunderstanding and/or lack of skill, oh yeah. But then Roy Weatherby did just the same, who would insult Roy?

What has occurred is this. In most if not all of the country modern gun shooters have been largely disenfranchised due to encroachment by these special seasons. Some may say and will, that everybody has the right to buy a bow, or in-line, or what ever it takes to make the hunt. Well yeah, but don't you see that what has happened is that the legislators have divided our house? Set us against ourselves? As scurrilous as Honest Abe was, even he knew that divided houses fall. There is NO Constitutional protection on the Right to hunt at the Federal level.

Right now, as I speak there are a whole raft of CF hunters out there that would be pleased to see all of the special seasons vanish as they are denied their opportunities at prime time hunting in many states due to the false perception of advantage bestowed on their weapon of choice. Here at the campfire we have have the moderns vs. the true primitive rifle shooters for another issue. One states that we are free to use whatever is legal, the other fears for the future due to concerns that the more advanced weaponry will make it all go away some day.

Here's the kicker...there's bureaucrats in the mix...they are the threat. Being a 'crat does not mean you have a love of the outdoors or hunting in this case. It means you have either a power fetish or have consigned yourself to mediocrity and are wont to do things that make your life more comfortable. Like when the volume gets too high, turning the box off. Whether they have the 'right' is debatable. They DO have the power.
That's the playing field as I see it, what y'all make of it is up to you. If you truly believe your postition is proper, befriend some infulencial politicians and defend yourself. Don't count too much on fact, politics ain't about facts, never was 'ceptin' in times of dire need.(Think WWII)

On a more personal note I eschew inlines for a multitude of reasons. They are my reasons, I don't care too much about what blows air up your skirt.

-They are ugly for the most part.
-Other than the fact that they load from the muzzle there is nothing leading me to believe they are "primitive". Those states that allow(ed) such seasons years back had no premonition that in-lines lay over the horizon.
-They are without soul, grace or substantial performance.
-They use optical sights, a feature I would allow by medical waiver but for no other reason. Dan'l Boone had no Luepy.
-They stink
-They shoot bullets that in the main are intended for CF pistols. Not primitive, and poor sons of an Irish whoore in regards to ballistic characteristics. I shant understand the logic of this, ever, never.....always. It hints that the average American male is susceptable to ADVERTISING, and may even prefer it to education and the odd stray lucid thought. Protest if you wish, but know deep in your heart there a conventional MLs out there that will eat the guts out of a modern in-line from a ballistic perspective, and there is no substitute for pure lead in the world of terminal performance.
-I don't like guns sold in shrink wrap, bubble packs, lingere'...
-I know how to keep powder and lock dry and do not need to suffer the dignities above to put meat on the table.

Inlines work, sure....but why not be a little different, maybe a little better. Do you really want to hand down your Knight InLine to your grandson?

There's a reason we call it HUNTING and not Killing. If you give it a little thought, learn a few skills, the second part will come easy enough. It's man that is the weapon, not the gun.

WOW outstanding and great post .
i would disagree with the encroachment of special season on the modern general season hunters though. well at least here in Idaho . both archery and muzzleloaders seasons are in time frames that were never set aside for the general big game season .
Some of the muzzleloading units also are open during the general season and even after the general season closes . However even those have either, always been designative short range weapons , were closed to hunting all together or had no legal season at all .
Again good post

I am from PA. and I believe we are the only state that still has a true flintlock season. It used to be open sights patch and roundball only but I do believe they allow mini's and sabots now. We also have an early ML season for doe that is any ML includeing scoped inlines. I have no problem with inlines untill someone with a scoped inline brags about how he killed a deer at 120 yards and laughs because I did not get one with my flintlock! Hey I would be happy he got one and I choose to use a flinter but don't even attempt to tell me the guy with a scoped inline has to have the same skill level that the guy with a flintlock does.

I think we as hunters all need to stick together and support those who hunt different than we do. We all need to judge the hunter by his or her merits and the first thing is to make a clean kill with whatever weapon you chose to hunt with.

thanks for the post Dan, it was a good one and I agree with most of it, but......

I don't think legislators have set us against each other at all. Here in CO, the hunting season is a huge source of income over most of the state and if hunting went away, the economy would really suffer. It's a cash cow, constituents know it, and legislators know it. So the legislators here in CO at least have no earthly reason to set one group of hunters against another or do anything to mess with the hunting industry. That would be a sure way to lose the next election.

I most often hear that particular argument ("they're setting us against each other") from the people who think they should be allowed to hunt with whatever weapon they choose, or the people who think they should be able to drive their ATVs anywhere and everywhere, or the people who defend "canned hunts," as in "we're playing right into the antis hands by being a house divided." I ain't buying it though, IMO its better to take a stand and police our own ranks than go along with every kind of hunting there is just to have a "united front."

Now I will admit to owning in-lines and sidelocks. And I'd agree that most in-lines are ugly, but not my T/C Encore with stainless steel, gold inlay (from the custom shop) and walnut, that is one fine-looking rifle and knowing my sons, they won't give it to the grandsons anyway so whether I'd want to leave it to the grandkids is a moot point.

As a matter of fact, in two weeks my 13 year-old will be using that frame with a .308 barrel for the late season elk hunt so he's already establishing his claim.

I think the rub comes in not with the in-line action itself but when people add all the other stuff you mentioned--optics, smokeless powder, saboted bullets, etc. I think we agree on that. All of those accessories are IMO in direct conflict with the original intent of "primitive" seasons because they're all intended to expand the effective range of the weapon. In that regard, they are a substitute for the skills needed to get close for a shot. By the way, I don't know if you've kept up with the latest sabot rounds but they've come a long way from the pistol bullets you referred to, but this only strengthens your (and my) argument.

Back to the regulations, if you look at how a state like Colorado has done it, IMO they have it just about right because they didn't get into the traditional vs. modern argument, but based their regs. on things that affect the effective range of the rifle. The state muzzleloader association lobbied for a ban on in-lines but they didn't get it because the DOW reasoned that in-lines don't really offer an advantage or increase the effective range. But the DOW banned scopes, sabots, pelleted powder, and smokeless powder because those things would increase the range.

And if everyone would just learn to live with those regs. this whole subject would go away.

Mileage may vary from state to state on the season's of course...down here the legislators enable angencies such as FWC to make RULES. Those are the 'crats I refer too. People been hunting in Florida and Georgia for a month or more now, with bows and MLs..other southern states are similar to a degree or two. Of the two, politicians and bureaucrats, I think the latte are the more dangerous. The former can be fired by the electorate, the latter are forever, building domains and fiefdoms, strutting, crowing.....Pols don't care when what season for what creature occurs, or how it's managed...down here.

Interesting, the differences from place to place. I did a little research into the area of the CO regs. a while back, and spoke to a few DOW people who had a hand in developing them. They are for the most part educated in wildlife management, and most are hunters and fishermen. Overall, I was very impressed with their professionalism. Now I'm not saying that money and politics don't play a part in the process, but I think out here there is much more influence from the professional game managers. I guess it's because hunting is so important here.

I can tell you that a few years ago when the big game license fees for non-residents were just about doubled to be in line with surrounding states politics didn't win out there. Most of the small business owners in areas where hunting is a big part of their business were dead set against the price hike, because they thought it would decrease the number of non-resident hunters. They are the constituency but the prices were raised anyway.

That is perzactley what I'm talkin' about. THEY are in charge, THEY make the rules. Perhaps not universal but many state legislatures create these little warrens and let the rats write the script w/o a lot of concern. Few politicians are going to fall on their swords over hunting issues. Dangerous situation in my eye. I mentioned in the last....displaced seasons, that bow and ML have been underway for a month or so? General gun started in Ga last Saturday IIRC, and about 2 weeks from now in Fl. It tends to rile some folks up a bit and I don't blame 'em actually.

Oh, Florida FWC are a bunch of steely eyed professionals too....yuk, yuk....lots of education but they leave common sense tarnished on the roadside. Flippin' moonbats...lemme know next time you see a warden down here with mud on his boots or truck....anybody... The comment about them dividing us...in my opinion it is not conscious activity on their part, just the result of moonbeams....

"All of those accessories are IMO in direct conflict with the original intent of "primitive" seasons because they're all intended to expand the effective range of the weapon. In that regard, they are a substitute for the skills needed to get close for a shot."

Having been around awhile, the legislative intent was to allow longer seasons, more hunter access and to create another tool to manage populations. One of the justifications for the black powder season was the shorter range of the weapons. I have to observe that the effective range of modern firearms has evolved over the past 100 years. As noted in another thread, I have no problem with common sense regulations. I also think hunting regulations should be driven my game management science, not personal opinions or political interest groups. Set the seasons based on harvest data. If muzzeloaders are killing too many animals, give hunters an option: shorten the season or tighten the regs.

From following the trials and tribulations of states where I hunt as a non-resident I know some game departments positively enjoy selling the same deer multiple times. What they actually do is sell a tag in a series of seasons, hoping that the animal won't be taken early (if at all).

They can adjust the number of tags down at any time, and still have multiple seasons.

jim

DD, maybe you misinterpreted what I said? When I said "they" are the constituency, by "they" I meant the small business owners who depend on non-residents for their business. What I meat was that although "they" (small business owner constituents) were against the price increase, it happened anyway despite the political pressure.

True story, last time I saw a DOW person in the field, I was fishing. The guy walked up, asked me how the fishing was, and didn't even check my license. He then proceeded to give me a good tip on what was working in that particular lake, and I caught more fish using his advice!!!! Now that's service.

I think you're splitting semantic hairs here; if the seasons are justified by the restricted range of the weapons, then using longer-range weapons certainly violates the original intent of the special seasons. And I'm very well aware of why the seasons were instituted in the first place, it's just as you've said above; I've said the same right here on this forum.

I know there is financial pressure on Fish & Game agencies to increase revenues, Jim. There is often opposition to raising fees (though most states have no qualms about putting the wood to nonresident hunters). Most of the people I know, however, got into the wildlife business because they care about wildlife. When push comes to shove, I think they care about maintaining healthy, stable populations and about using good science more than selling tags. Unfortunately, there are situations where hunters put political pressure on the regulation process... not in the best interest of the species but in self interest. Herd balance is a big issue. We still have a lot of hunters who want to kill bucks/bulls even when this may be detrimental in a given situation.

And smokepole, I am skeptical of "range." If memory serves, Union and Confederate sharpshooters demonstrated that muzzleloaders can be deadly at impressive ranges. As a fan of the genre, I'm sure you know the accuracy that has been squeezed out of a Whitworth full match rifle at amazing ranges (up to 1000 yards). One of the facts you don't mention is that muzzleloaders (unlike most centerfires) do not allow a quick second shot... another justification for the season. So, Smoke, it's not just about range.

The simple fact is that if you prohibit optics, you limit most hunters using ANY kind of rifle to under 120 yards. Frankly, I just don't know many hunters (as opposed to serious target shooters) who are "MOA" with open sights at distances.

Yup, I agree, there are always those anomalous guys who can shoot accurately at three or four or five times the range of the rest of us, be it with MLs or centerfires but I guess I'm talking about the average Joe because "Joe" is the guy the regulations should be tailored to..

Smokie, no, I understood your "they" as constituents....mine referred to 'crats...bad word selection on my part at that point in the time line, sorry 'bout that. I don't always know who the enemy is, but THEY always be azzholes.

up to and past 1000 yards . however remember these were not in hunting situation . the shots are also taken long distance ranges specifically designed for this type of shooting and at known distances, with spotters , wind flags and such . i ready earlier this spring where the record is now 2000 yards .

i hardly see long range matches as relating to hunting other then proper shot placment. .
an interesting note is that these shots were also taken with open sights

I dunno that match competition relates or not, but I'll take a moment to paste something from another site, posted by a knowledgable sort:


'Tis a cartridge gun, but there is nothing extraordinary about the load. It illustrates what is doable with BP and lead...note the BC... Note too, it is a 15# gun. Note entirely convenient for hunting but not impossible. Shot off the stix in competition Creedmoore Matches...sub MOA nuts, hot roasted...

It is entirely probable that a fella could borrow from the old "Slug Gun" designs and theory to make a front stuffer hunting rifle that would generate impressive long range performance...oh wait, it's already been done....

No, I don't think range is a litmus in comparing the two types of guns, modern and conventional as it were. Bullets...yep, there ya go...conicals do carry some advantage, and so do round balls in their way, though it's not of ballistic nature. I wonder if 1 out of 10 fellas out there shooting inlines is aware on any level at all what conventional ML guns are capable of? Not being snide with that...honest question. Rest assured I would NOT want a Whitworth gun plinking at me on the 1,000 yard line, and I don't recall they were intended only for match work. I seem to recall that Mr. Whitworth was trying to help the King dispatch revolutionaries or something like that.

ill see you that cartradge gun and raise you a traditional side lock Percussion muzzleloader . at 1/2 the distance






here is one im sure you will like 1000 yards to
still open sites



here is another set of targets from a flintlock at 100 yards . granted its only 100 yards but its also using a RB <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />





here is a good place to read up on long range muzzleloading


Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee, 5th Long Range World Championships

Oh, I won't take that bet sir, not with odds! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanking you greatly for taking the time to post those pics....the prosecution rests! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And not only that, you get to see how big a half dollar and siver dollar are. Aint seen that in a while...!

Regards, sse

Captchee

Still got that black & White Polaroid eh!??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Got the ol' Zenith b & w console with the separate VHF-UHF clicker tuners too? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

lost my sony in my Tipi fire 2 weeks ago . sure hope that insurance comes through soon

here is another target from the killdeer flintlock rifle
" guys these are not my targets lol , i wish they were but they are not "

this target is with RB at 200yards with muzzle and elbow rest .
60 grains of 3F. drop of ball is stated to be 39 1/2 inches below POA. the target i believe is an 8 by 11 paper

these photos are from either Dillon�s "the Kentucky rifle� or the muzzleloading cap lock rifle by Ned Roberts .
both are very good books on the subject and show what soft barreled rifles can do

im sorry i was trying to edit my post yesterday when the site went down so here is the rest of the above post

======================================
While its true these photos show what traditional weapons can do . we must remember that the fellas that posted these targets worked hard get them . They took the time to learn the rifle . Took the time to learn what loads shot best . What patch , lube and powder combinations it took to get this accuracy.

IMO when compared on equal ground traditional weapons are far superior to the modern inline in most every way to include conical shooting if equipped with the correct barrel . However the shooter must have the dedication to learn the weapon .

also as I have said to Dan in PM . To many times those coming into this sport look at modern manufacturing hype. Often times these very same folks maybe had their first taste with a lesser quality traditional fraimed production rifle . They read the pamphlet that came with it and went out and shot . Yet they never really understood what was happening and the things they needed to do or for that mater the short coming of their given rifle . Thus they were not happy with the results .

There are just so many myths out , spread by many different folks for any number of reasons .
I personally have seen and been soundly whipped by smoothbore shooters who can hold their own very well even on paper out past 100 yards , Past 200 on clangers .
I will also tell you this . I have a flintlock Hershel rifle with an iron barrel and a slow RB twist . That rifle
� WILL� hold a pie plate group at 120 yards with a hollow based 436 grain conical using and elbow rest . I would bet that a better shooter then I could even tighten that up . None of the conical go through sideways or show signs of tumbling . Maybe it�s the rifling , or maybe the bullet ??. most likely a combination of the two , I don�t know. all I can tell you is it works and I use it for bull elk most all the time as it patterns more then acceptable for that size of game within that yardage .

I will also tell you flintlock ignitions are not slow but in fact IMO a person would be hard pressed to tell the difference in ignition between a cap and a flintlock that is properly maintained .
What about weather you say ? I have hunted in rain , snow and wind . When a person takes the time to learn their rifle and how to properly maintain it IMO the only ignition problem you will have has to be blamed on you the shooter not the weapon .
Hard to clean ? Also false .
don�t fall for a bag of cleaning patches and a bottle of cleaner . How long does it take to clean your center fire ? It should take no longer to clean a BP weapon then that . If it does , your doing it wrong . There simply is not other way to say it .
Simple take the barrel off . use the pantry sink or if you have a pinned long rifle get the proper bucket and hose set up . Run a dry patch and follow with a good gun lube . Its true BP is corrosive and if a weapon is not properly cleaned it will rust . However so will your center fires if they are left in the back of the closet for a year ,,,, or more

Now let me say this . Your not going to buy a rifle and open the box or for that mater have a custom one made and get fantastic results if you only take it out 1 or 2 times a year . If the only time that rifle see�s the light of day is the weekend before opening day , then your missing the whole point .
Not only are you missing the point of shooting a muzzleloader , but your missing the point of why the seasons are even available to you
Woooooo lol hope that�s readable lol anyway just had to get that off my chest LMAO

OK, captchee, I'll bite. For one of the great unwashed heathens who's not familiar with flintlocks, what would your recommendation be for a rifle? A good rifle, with a custom lock if need be. I'd want to shoot conicals for elk. But you know, my hawken with 1 in 48 always shot 410 grain Hornadys pretty well, what do you think of that twist? A good compromise? What about having two barels and switching? Sacriligeous? I backapck so I don't want one with a real long barrel.

I know why I can hunt in a muzzleloader season, Cap. We live in America. Our Constitution protects our right to own firearms. The laws of this nation, enacted by our elected representatives, allow me to carry a firearm into the field and hunt.

Hunting seasons are available to us because we understand our right to hunt must be balanced by our responsibility to serve as stewards of wildlife and habitat. This is why we spend our tax dollars on fish and games agencies... to ensure that our public policies reflect our values as a society that respects ethical hunting. Disagree as you wish, that's your right as well. The simple fact is that muzzleloader seasons and regulations vary from state to state because the electorate (including hunters) varies from state to state.

A firearm, modern or primitive, is just a tool. A master craftsman can do more with a simple wood chisel than an amateur can do with power equipment. The same is true for weapons. As I have stated elsewhere, I wager the weapon is less than 10 percent of the recipe for a successful hunt. As such, I don't understand why we, as hunters, spend so much time on the modern versus primitive debate.

Insofar as "range," my point is that black powder rifles are capable of great accuracy at extraordinary ranges. Sure, the "average" marksman doesn't have the same range with a muzzleloader as with a modern, scoped, centerfire rifle... but what are we really talking about? Look at the average range data for successful hunts. It is lower in the east than in the west which, along with robust whitetail popuations, that eastern fish and game agencies (and hunters) don't seem to care as much about the primitive/modern debate. If memory serves, the average range for successful whitetail kills in Maryland was in the 50 to 60 yard range... well below the effective range of any shootable muzzleloader even in the hands of a mediocre marksman. I'd guess the average ranges are higher in the west, but I hunted Montana for many years before relocating to Maryland (and I still elk hunt as a nonresident). I'd bet the backstraps off my next elk that the average range for a successful elk hunt (firearms) is under 120 yards.

I suspect the regulations against modern inlines are a victory of form over substance because I don't think modern muzzeloaders make a statistically significant difference in harvests. Of course, the right way to test this hypothesis is to test it in the field. The problem is that some primitive afficiandos don't want this sort of test. They simply want to keep the "special" seasons and increase restrictions or outright prohibit modern inline firearms. This tells me that some of the arguments coming from the primitive campfire are really a smokescreen for protecting special seasons.

Hamstead, couple of questions and a comment:

Hunting in the US has absolutely nothing to do with "rights". It is a priviledge. I grant that some states MAY have provisions making it a right in that state, but on a federal level it is not.

Would you mind if centerfire hunters joined you during the muzzle loader season, if so, why? If not, why have special seasons for different classes of arms/weapons?

Hampstead .
The constitution protects your right to bear arms . It does not protect your right to hunt in any way shape or form . The only people in this country that have specific rights to hunt are we American Indians and even that is subject to change .wording of individual treaties may very ." big understatment "

Smoke pole :
A good rifle ?
That would depend on what one was looking for as to weight caliber and projectile .
Production gun wise I would say the lyman GPR is one of the best in flintlock .
Now custom guns are a complete nother story ..
One thing IMO that holds true however is that for a flintlock a good lock is the most important part. don�t skimp there or you could be sorry .


I also don�t see anything wrong with interchangeable barrels or for that mater ignitions . A custom maker can build you a rifle that will easily switch from flint to percussion as well as swap barrels either for twist rates or for rifled to smooth bore ..
This avenue also allows different rifling designs for barrels . These also have an outcome on how a particular rifle will shoot different projectiles .


As to the old 1 in 48 twist debate .
How good a twist works is dependant on many things . rifling for sure but also proper fit of projectile .
Just because someone purchases a 50 cal does not mean the bore is .500.. I have seen barrels range from as much as + or - .010 within the same manufacture.
Same with depth of rifling. Yet its not uncommon to find folks shooting .490 or .495 RB.
For instance . I have a Colerain barrel on my De Chase that�s supposed t be 62 cal . Yet it is not . . If I try to load a .600 RB with a .015 patch you cant hammer the ball in . why because the bore is actually . 612

So I have a mould for a .595 RB and use the .015 patch .

I submit this . A slow twist will shoot a conical . maybe not optimally but it will shoot it and within a give distance be accurate . A fast twist will also shoot a RB . Again maybe not the best choice but given the right load both the slow and fast twist will work . the trick is finding that critical powder charge , projectile or prb size that it likes .

With the 1 in 48 this is somewhat easer as the twist is middle of the road . Still however as in sure you have found it will shoot some conical designs better then others .
The PRB is also much the same but takes some work on the powder side .

I think often this size difference is why folks have different experiences with a given twist .
Remember we are talking muzzleloading and in this sport there is no one size fits all even with modern designs

You want a light flintlock , traditionally framed rifle for elk . Id recommend either a NW trade gun with a rifled or smooth bore octagon to round barrel in 54 or better .
Even put rear sights on it if you like . Trade guns having no rear sight is also another miss leading so called fact . if you really get to looking you will find just as many with rear sights or that had rear sights as those that do not .
even a jaeger rifle with the above barrel or a swamped barrel profile .
As to twist ? That would depend on you choices of rifling and how often you shoot different projectiles