Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Accuracy / group size debate

Been following with interest that thread. I'm just a average layman with average skills, but here is my take on the subject.

When working up loads, load 5 of each load.
select the best 2 groups, load 10 of each.
shoot 10 and declare a winner.
At this point might play with OAL
From there on, shoot 3 shot groups at 100 / 200 yards.

If time after time 100 yard groups of 3 are consistently under an 1.5 inch, and 200 yard groups are consistently under 3 inches. I'm happy. Why? Because that's all I ask of my rifles. Do I genuinely know what the actual accuracy of each rifle is? Probably not, but I don't need to know down to the inth degree what they are purely capable of. I do know that when I go hunting I have confidence I will fill the freezer out to 200 yards. Anything beyond that is not needed for my criteria. It suits my needs well. This applies to me. Your needs may vary. In Michigan where I hunt, its rare unless you live / hunt down a power line clearing to get 100+ yard shots, hence my logic.

That was/ is an interesting thread to say the least.

I have been keeping up with the post I started. Perhaps, we need to dig a little deeper and spell out what I see as important. I received a PM that truly categorized people with their firearms.

1. Shooters
2.Hunters
3. Casual shooters

He further went on to say there was a big difference between 1 and 2 and 3.

First off to be good in #1, one has to have enough trigger time to be able to tell if an errant shot is the shooter or gun/ammo. This takes a lot of trigger time with almost year round shooting, if old like me. Sitting down on the bench with confidence and complete control, takes lots of practice. In addition, shooting Rock Chucks and Sage Rats provide an outlet from April thru June. If I had to just shoot paper, I would not pursue this like I do.

And as I shoot chucks, I want to extend my range. My longest shot on a chuck is 417 yards. Not a long ways for many, but for me, a long ways. Next season if I am still around, my goal is about 550 yards. To make those shots, I have to be confident along with having a very accurate rifle/ammo combination.

Big game hunters could care less as the target is much larger. I shot many dozens of big game animals with a Ruger 270 that was 1 1/2" gun.

As for the number of shots needed to test your loads, since 1961, I have shot 3 shot groups with maybe a dozen 5 shot. I find that if I can go out the next time and shoot a group similar to the last one, the 3 shot group is suffice. I think that what Mule Deer was actually talking about with 10 shot groups, is what bullet companies must do to prove their bullets. Primarly, I am interested in one shot groups. I want to be able to have that bullet go where I want in one shot. I do not want to have to shoot the second time to make the kill.

Many of you reading this are likely much better shots than I am. About that, good for you. If you are not, then you have something to work for.

Fred,

Actually, I was talking about 10-shot groups (or anything more than 3-shot) to provide a realistic idea of what a given rifle and load will do IF somebody needs or wants all the accuracy possible.

Here's an example. Most years I normally shoot quite a few prairie dogs, and while I always taking several rifles I use the .204 Ruger as my main PD cartridge. The .204 I used for a while was a Remington 700 VTR that would group 10 shots of its primary handload under 3/4" at 100 yards. This translates into a rifle that will keep all its shots in around 2" at 300 yards, or about an inch from point of aim. Now, I'm not talking about typical PD shooting conditions, but the inherent capability of the rifle and load.

Year before last I started missing dogs at around 300 after what I thought was a good hold. So I put it on paper again at 100, shooting another 10-shot group with the same load, which was closer to 1-1/2". Which meant the barrel was starting to go, so I replaced it.

But the same barrel would still average right around 1/2" for 3-shor groups, which many shooters would consider very accurate. But three shots simply don't show what ALL shots will do with a given rifle and load, and that's what I'm interested in with a PD rifle. Otherwise even a perfect hold at 300 results in too many misses, and that wastes far more ammo than using a 10-shot group as a basic test at 100, instead of cheaping out and only shooting 3-shot groups.

With many of my big game rifles, however, 3-shot groups are plenty. As an example that's what I normally shoot in my 9.3x62, and they average under an inch, good enough to sight-in, while a 10-shot group would be considerably larger, so is any animals I'm going to shoot with the rifle. I'm not going to use it on pronghorn at 500+ yards, and most of the time shoot animals bigger than deer at less than 300 yards. It doesn't really matter if the rifle shoots half-inch or 1-inch or even 1-1/2 inch groups, because any are plenty for trying to hit the basketball-sized vital zone of the rifle's usual game,m at usual ranges.

And this, of course, is why so many people on the other thread said they'd great results from shooting only 3-shot groups when working up loads and hunting big game. Most people shoot big game at ranges where 2" or even 3" accuracy at 100 yards won't make any difference at all, because the target's so big. Yet the same people will often spend plenty of time working up loads and shooting 3-shot groups they can brag about. If that's what makes people happy, then why not?

But 3-shot groups at 100 yards don't really have any relevance in actually hitting a SMALL target at 300 yards. At the same time they're no handicap in shooting basketball-sized targets at 300 yards, because there's so much room for error.

So yes, it depends on what kind of shooter you are, but also on the level of accuracy required for what kind of shooting you plan on doing.

Whatever John says.

And,

Whatever

Makes

You

Happy.

I'm not happy unless all five touch the same hole, and I'm not sure I'm happy until ten of the production batch make a bigger continuous hole.

But that's me. I'm such a terrible shot I want to make sure it's not the GUN's fault when I MISS.

Old Dotter and Fred Willis.

Thanks for being in the crowd of 95% Good Guys.

I covered this repeatedly and most recent down in the miscellaneous section.

It's very extensive.

If you want specifics I will try again.

Bill

John, I do not shoot the volume on chucks that you shoot at prairie dogs. I've killed over a thousand chucks and never had a load bite me in the butt. I shoot two primary rifles, A Sako 223 with a PacNor barrel and a 20 TAC with the same brand barrel. If I do my part with my reloads, they shoot under 1/2" anytime. Both guns were rebarreled by Bob Greene.

I seldom shoot anything less than 200 yards as it is not very sporting.

So I have confidence in me and my guns and that is why 1 shot groups are what I like after the final loads are chosen.

John in being very truthful, I have never had a good experience with factory barrels except with 06's and my 243 HB Sako. Both were extremely accurate. I suspect that you have used lots of factory rifles, of which there is a huge difference in accuracy generally.

Really 3 shot groups are totally appropriate if you are combining them in a running average. Let me give you an example: A deer hunter says he rarely shoots over 3 shots at deer so he decides that a 3 shot group is how he wants to evaluate his load under its intended purpose. What he should do is fire 10 or so 3 shot groups For a running average. Realisticaly he doesn't even have to do them on the same day or he can even clean his barrel in between strings (especially if that's the state of the rifles barrel when he sets out to hunt) and let it cool. This is load/system reliability and would be appropriate.
The example Mule Deer gave using 10 shots makes sense shooting varmints or in volume and was able to detect a problem using this method.

everything becomes a non-issue if you shoot a good Audette and pick a load from an obvious node.

Holy Good;

At last some one that thinks along my plane.

Bill

Good stuff as usual there Bill.


Past time to put it down on paper (in the form of a readable manual) for consumer usage, of course...

.

For hunting rifles my primary concern is that the rifle put the first shot from it's cold barrel right in the game where I aim!

Subsequent shots may be needed however keeping track that the rifle stay sighted in is vital.

Here is how a favorite shot:

24 hr by-line:

stop.

surrounded by.

idiots.

stop.

please stop...

.the idiots.



stop.

Some random thoughts on shooting groups:

If one can not call his shots and know he shot a flyer before looking through the spotter, he is wasting his time at the bench.

One of the most revealing tests you can do with any hunting rifle and load is to staple up a target and shoot one shot from the bench each morning for ten days in a row.

A couple of five shot groups will show that the barrel does not walk as she warms up.

I usually shoot three shot groups during load development because:
Three shots into three inches at 100 yds tells me all I need to know about the load.

Three shots into .5 inchs warrants the expenditure of a couple more bullets to produce a more statistically relevant sample.

For me, being able to get closer to the animals I shoot is more sporting and gentlemanly than sniping them from afar.

Not that I have anything against it or that I, myself, do not find satisfaction in a well executed 400 yd shot but I can`t see how it is more sporting than a well executed stalk.

A few years ago I read an article on group size. The writer said that he puts a second target behind his first target as a backer. Every time he shoots a three shot group, he puts the same backer behind his target. Eventually, he has a 51 shot group in his backer that shows what he and his rifle are capable of on demand. Interesting concept.

Excellent post John......

Great threads,on a worthy subject.



If one hasn't learned to "call his shots",...e.g. the sight picture at the instant the trigger breaks,....he's spent far to much time ON benches, and not enough time dry and live firing on his hind legs.



Amen, and I thank old Cactus Jack for having written / published that so many years ago.

GTC

the real secret to shooting a good group is a good trigger, the best upgrade you can do to any rifle. Plus the best way to fire a one hole group is to fire only one shot.

if you can't call your shots on the bench, you ain't learned much...