Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Idaho = wolves ALMOST everywhere

StubbleDuck- I am flattered that you know so much about where I used to live. That's almost neat. I know for a fact that my job gets me out and about with those who do have a 'dog' in this fight more than anyone who worked at Hill.

We do now have wolves in UT with a two being trapped in that last two years and confirmed sitings in Rich Co, UT.

Ahh, therein lies the crux. They haven't been there since they were exterminated in the 30's, remember.

When I lived in Grangeville in the early '80's, I NEVER ran into a hunter that didn't think there were wolves in the back country then. To a man, they had tales of tracks and sightings. Sasquatch, not so much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

For over 50 years, that animal was trained that people meant instant death, and it was one elusive bugger. Didn't hang out around people or things associated with people.

There definitely was a wolf in the region, then, but you'll never find any "official" willing to step over the party line and admit it. So, therefore, if the animal didn't exist, it could not be collected or tested. Catch-22.

Ironically, I think we will be FAR better off in the long run with the Canuck wolves than if the original population would have ended up "seperate and distinct". We'd have been written up for farting upwind of them...... JMO, Dutch.

[color:"red"] I agree with there were probably wolves in the region, but what subspecies were they? Were they really different than the introduced wolves (provable by genetic analysis). I personally think the argument means not much anyway. I think the rabid anti-wolfers are just using the "native species" thing to fight the "experimental" population/introduction (not there is anything wrong with that). I don't think they care if there were native wolves. I think most of them would want to kill the natives too. Of course, that's just a feeling I get when reading these forums.
I also think that the court case over this should have evidence from both sides about genetics or whatever that might provide the facts. I'd like to see that evidence. But, I can't find it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

[quote] I think most of them would want to kill the natives too[quote]

Not so...I remember sitting at the end of a 600 foot tong line on the Salmon river 45 miles back in from McCall..The Linkbelt broke down and I had the choice to stay or walk up the steep grade.I stayed only to see three Wolves walk buy as the largest of the bunch just stood there and stared at me for about three minutes...Wonderful sight!!! Ain't no Huskies running in packs that far back in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

South Fork of the Salmon river they were howling and the wife answered and they talked untill I tried.She said I sounded like a wounded Big Foot.We had wolves and got along with them fine..The loggers/packers and guides and ranchers never had the problem they have now.

They are multiplying like rabbits and someone better get control of it..We don't let the Deer and Elk herds get out of control so why should the Wolves get to the point there only dinner lies in someones backyard?

Good/Bad idea?Who knows but if you start something you have to be prepared to control it or there is nothing but trouble to follow.I don't hate or want to kill a Wolf unless my family is threatened including my pets which are part of my family.....

Never talk about wolves on the internet!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

Some of the remarks remind me of the old european fairy tales, where wolvss were seen as devils. So you see the artificially high number of elk as being in your interest, and you see the wolves as a threat to that interest. Therefore you conjure up hate and evil in the species itself, and in the government agency responsible for managing the species. Do any of you "outdoorsmen" actually care about the outdoors at all? Predators have a place in all wild lands, and I prefer not to hunt in places that aren't wild, whether I fill my tag or not!

Never talk about wolves on the internet!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yah, I think I'll quit now.
I wonder if this guy saved some hair?

DPole I will repeat some of my earlier posts and provide you with material that I doubt would have been addressed when you were studying for your biology degree. I can provide references and documentation but you have to go outside the box and be objective enough to study the facts.

Unfortunately we can't get "all the facts" from our Federal and State experts. To much special interest, myths, fraud and politics involved. I actually have more faith in the USFWS now for providing the truth than Idaho Fish and Game. Idaho is now receiving funding for wolves and they can't afford to be honest about the decline in our herds due to loss of revenue. My opinion is we need an outside agency to establish policy and facts who is not influenced by money or the lack of it by being truthful and obective. The wolves need to be delisted now or our Fish and Game department will need to find some way to feed them because their supply is running out.

I understand that Minnesota only claims 2,500-3000 wolves and this number hasn�t changed much in 10 years. I do admit I�m only guessing with the numbers due to reports from outfitters and guides in MN who I put more faith in than the DNR. Idaho has been claiming to have 500-600 but I have good reason the numbers are double and maybe triple of this. One of my observations with wolf numbers came during 2004 when I observed over 30 wolves in an area the USFWS claimed only 1 lived. In the winter of 2005-2006 we took 21 separate hikes into the Lolo zone to observe elk winter range and conditions especially habitat and found the elk being absolutely harassed beyond description in their narrow winter range with no protection. Their habitat was excellent and food supply perfect but they had been pushed off all their typical winter ranges and sought cover in old growth forest of the main trails and logging roads where the wolves normally patrol. In fact the old growth timber is providing some safety for the elk. Wolves tend to patrol the trails, ridge tops, logging roads and open areas. In fact an acquaintance with the Idaho transportation department said their crews saw wolves every day last winter on highway 12 up the Lochsa. The wolves are so intelligent that they have discovered what our Native American Indian friends have known since highway 12 was built that it is much easier to hunt from the highway in the middle of the winter when the snow is deep and the elk are forced down to the highway for easy shooting and the elk can�t go anywhere else and it�s a butcher shop.

Ed Bangs can verify Tom Bergerud credentials or anyone associated with the wolf Reintroduction program. He has been studying the Canadian Gray wolf for over 30 years in BC. I hope he will work as a reference because these are his quotes.

Tom Bergerud top wolf expert from BC has said the following:
"I predict that you�re going to have major impacts from wolves in this state," (Idaho) he said. I predict a major elk decline.
He said that he saw wolves "repeatedly depress moose, caribou and elk populations while studying them throughout Canada and in some cases they wiped out local populations of caribou."
"I've watched herd after herd (of caribou) go EXTINCT across Canada," he said. The problem: wolves have no known predators to keep them in balance with the ecosystem..�
�The subspecies Canadian gray wolves run in packs of 14 or more, weigh up to 135 pounds and -- given the fact that it takes 2500 elk per year to feed 100 wolves. Wolves have no known predators to keep them in balance with the ecosystem. Indigenous wolves weighed only 80 pounds and roamed in pairs. (These former Idaho wolves have now been mostly devoured by the new sub species and the E.S.A. hasn�t even batted an eye about this issue.) �The subspecies Canadian gray wolves run in packs of 14 or more, weigh up to 135 pounds and -- given the fact that it takes 2500 elk per year to feed 100 wolves with an excess of 1200 or more -- they are also now known to be killing humans.-In northern India, wolf populations have gone uncontrolled for years, wildlife is all but gone, leaving domesticated livestock and humans for prey. Since 1996, over 80 people have been killed and eaten by wolves in northern India. We must realize that the species of wolf introduced in the tri-state areas (Idaho, Montana and Wyoming) is an exotic subspecies that is not indigenous to these areas.�



Here is a quote from Dr. Kay:

Charles E. Kay has a Ph.D. in wildlife ecology and is adjunct professor of political science at Utah State University and a Research Fellow for the Independent Institute

�I am committed neither to having wolves in the West nor to keeping them out. I am committed, though, to science being used responsibly in policy debates, something I have not yet seen with wolf recovery. My analysis indicates that the federal government and other wolf advocates have taken liberties with the truth, with science, and with the Endangered Species Act�.



I have 2 addional new reports in PDF from Dr Kay that I can email you if you are interested. The 1st one is entitled: Predation: Lies, Myths, and Scientific Fraud. The 2nd one is: Are predators killing your hunting opportunities? His studies on habitat research took him over 500 miles in 30 days in Banff and Jasper National parks. He found that with the addition of wolves into the ecosystem the elk and moose populations have been reduced by more than 80%. The habit is still there but the elk are not and hunting opportunities continue to decline. He also has the same documentation regarding the habitat in Yellowstone. He claims the R.M.E.F. has spent millions in the Yellowstone Ecosystem on habitat improvement but the elk numbers continues to decline.


Here are the references of Dr. Charles Kay's article that I hope you also read in my previous posts.

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PS: I have a lot more data if you are interested.

Hats off to you Waha, well put.

Well thanks for trying Waha,
Most of what you wrote, I agree with, and have no comment. I "studied" for my MS in the 70s, so you are right that I had not yet seen all the data. It wasn't out yet. I'm sorry you have assumed that I'm stuck in a box.

Anybody can slap up a bunch of unrelated references. I've got a billion of 'em too. Thats a poor use of references meant to impress, and usually used by undergrads. They soon learn better.
Now if you could narrow the references down to my two pertinent points. Which one proves that the "native" wolves are a distinctly separate subspecies (or even differ in size), and which one proves that all the "natives" got ate up by the relocated wolves? Or are you going by what one biologist said? Is that the only biologist you trust? Is it because you agree with him? By the way, for a guy who has no faith in gov, you sure use a lot of gov references. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as counting wolves goes, MNDNR published the 2004 wolf report. You can find it on our web site. Because of a mange outbreak after 2004, the wolf pop is probably at the low end of the stated range (2500-3500), at least in my area (my opinion). I'd be interested in what methods were used by those you have faith in (guides and outfitters) to count the wolves. Was it a statistically valid count?

And to all the talk of what wolves are doing out there, and how they are acting, etc., I could care less. As I've said, I don't care very much what happens to wolves out your way. I'm just interested in finding out the facts and correcting misinformation. Like when somebody tells me that the "native " wolves were so scared of humans that few folks ever saw them, and then disagrees that "most" folks out there would kill the "natives" too....well, maybe you can see why I want proof instead of the heresay and occular measurements (that would be seeing them and saying how big they were without actual measurement) that are posted here.

Anyway, I'm trying to get off this, as it seems to be nonproductive (no genetic info). So even though its not PC, I shall reply to others no more about it (at least that's the plan-now if I can just stick to it). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Were the "native" wolves as big as these?

Dpole, for someone who don't care what happens out our way you sure have stuck your nose in it. If you really don't care, quit trying to discredit everything that is said by someone other than you know it all types. I don't have a college education, I don't need one to go into the woods and see the dead elk that the wolves have killed. I don't need one to figure out that more mouths to feed, mean less elk. Its not rocket science, the wolves that are being refered to as native were noticably smaller in size and number. Most people who I have talked to in Idaho don't have a problem with having wolves here(very beautiful animals) we have a problem with letting them get out of control.

I will narrow down the research and provide it to you. I apologize for the "In Box" comment but I have found that like a lot of the "redneck" hunters who don't do their homework and study enough, the Federal and State Biologists are studying but they tend to study from the same source and they become like robots quoting each other and not digging deep enough on their own. Every Idaho F&G biologists gives me the same line and I realize they have been programmed to do so for many reasons and as you know it always comes from the top. The top has to worry about liability, lawsuits, and loss of revenue, public perception, ECT, ECT. In other words the truth can be twisted. In all of our hikes the last 20 years we have never found a Fish and game employee out on the ground trying to be proactive in their research. I realize some do get out but due to funding or whatever excuse they have it's not happening enough. This has really effected our management and as you know about management when "crisis management" becomes the Norm we all pay.
I predict like Dr. Kay did in the August 1993 issue of Petersen's hunting even before we got our wolves that this day would come and due to special interest and all the lawsuits and established court decisions that you or I won't be hunting any wolves in the near future. I truly wish I were wrong and if I get proven wrong I will fly to your city and buy you a steak dinner!

You should also care about our wolves because they are now legally connected to yours and that�s why I've researched your lawsuits due to established Case Law and court decisions. Also your State Geography, wolves and circumstances are so different to ours its hard to compare. You will probably always have fair deer hunting and so will we. The elk seem to be in peril and our whitetail are so plentiful that I'm not as worried as others are about their future. I wouldn't worry about the elk if they didn't have such small areas to winter when they get pushed down into a small window each Nov-March. I saw a Native wolf in 1981 on the Lolo Trail and I know a retired F&G expert that I trust who studied them in Cayuse creek over 20 years ago. By the way I do trust a few Federal and State Biologists. Some of them are my best friends and they tell me too much at times. In one case a USFWS biologist came clean and told me in 2004 that he thinks Idaho may have close to 3,000 wolves at that time and that in 4 years from then we won't recognize what�s happened to the elk herds. Unfortunately he is correct and I didn't want to believe him then. As grim as the elk are doing in this area the elk are flourishing in the southern part of the state where the wolves haven�t made as big of an impact and that is where the feds capitalize on when looking at the big picture. This is deceiving to the public when you have all the elk go extinct in 2/3 of the state but you can still claim the elk are doing great in Idaho! This is what Defenders, Ralph Maughn and all the others are doing and its criminal and it doesn�t reflect the entire truth.

I can't disagree much with anything you said in your last post.



Thank you. That would be great.

Never talk Wolves on the internet!!!
Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Never talk wolves on the internet!!

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

waha - PM sent. I'd like the pdf references you have and any other electronic refs you may have. Thanks for posting - you're posts have proven to be the most informative I've seen in a long time. Thanks for taking the time.

-- BW

waha - you are on the right track. I agree with your post completely. Not all Govt workers are slugs but they do quote each other and become "conditioned" - I see it in my field as well.

I'll still maintain that the best way to battle the wolf issue is through science, facts, figures, data. Empirical information only goes so far and is very hard to substantiate because everyone has a unique set of "data".

As to the USFWS, I'll just say that I've seen some bad science from some of their eastern counterparts. I'll not paint the entire agency with the same brush though. I have faith in good science prevailing in the long run - it usually does despite what many think.

Good posts.

-- BW

Dpole - it do look to me as tho' waha posted a set of relevent and topical references from one study. I'm thinking that he has put up instead of shut up - and without throwing rocks. I'm also thinking that you could provide a good synopsis of the genetics relevant references he sends you so that all can learn. Or would that be too Undergrad?

As far as waha's posts, he has stated his opinions/synopsis of his research - whether it be one biologist or 20, a couple of research projects or 100 - he has a basis for his opinion. Something I've not seen on this thread since inception. I have seen alot of passion displayed by several and will not fault the passion and accompanying statements - beeen there myself a time or three. My comments thus far have been to direct the passion in the right direction. Combine the passion dispalyed by ic2 and logcutter with the facts, figures, and data shared by waha and you have the begginings of bonifide position for wolf population control. We can argue if they need total eradication or just control, but we have the foundation to present a viable counter argument.

Look forward to your summary on wolf genetics.

-- BW

logcutter,
Now that's what I'm talkin' about. Where did you get those quotes(references)? I'd like to read more.

Here's my summary on wolf genetics, or any other plant or critter's genetics for that matter:

1) Even if there were "breeding pairs", there weren't enough for a healthy gene pool, it was most likely bottlenecked, which leads to inbreeding depression.

"As available habitats for wolves decreased and populations became small, genotypes were fixed at random in the remaining populations, leaving a fractured genetic landscape. Because this landscape reflects the recent activities of humans, preserving each population separately through captive breeding amounts to a continuation of artificial selection on a grand scale and is not justified."

from http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm

Molecular evolution of the dog family.
Trends Genet. 1993 Jun;9(6):218-24.

2) "Domestic species of plants and animals whose wild progenitors are extinct cannot be enriched through periodic interbreeding, and change under artificial selection may be more limited. Consequently, the preservation of wild progenitors may be a critical issue in the continued evolution of domestic plants and animals."

from http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm

Multiple and ancient origins of the domestic dog.
Science. 1997 Jun 13;276(5319):1687-9.

ETA, I'm only quoting one group of scientists because I'm only aware of one wolf genetics study.

Thanks Husky,

I only had time to scan the papers and will have to get a bit of help from a genetics pro. But, the collection sites of samples in the two papers seemed to include the areas (still not sure exactly where the introduced wolves all came from-somewhere in W Alberta?) in question. I'm not sure of the collection dates. I wonder if they sampled the introduced woles in Montana or found "native" samples somehow. I see that Wayne took samples from a museum red wolf collection. The papers didn't really address the differences, if any, between Alberta and Montana samples, but those data probably exist. I'll have to contact some of the authors. I will study further and look into the references. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These genetic sequences were of interest to me. They were from the Vila, et.al. paper. They seem to be evidence of similarity between Alberta, Montana, AND NW TERRITORIES(?) wolves. Of course, if the Montana samples were of introduced wolves,...then....well....ya know.... And they didn't test all loci, of course, so they could very well have missed the appropriate ones. Yet, they found profound differences from the Yukon sequences. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />