Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Scopes That Track Perfectly Every Time ?

Lol.... staying perky into middle age w/o a sports bra?

Non firing tracking shouldn't be done on a rifle, it should be done with a block mount with a laser at 100 yards as the control group to be sure the physical pointing of the scope didn't move whilst one was screwing with the knobs (spinning). Even the crappy mounting can screw things up.... Loose, cracked, ....

Shoot testing spinning tests the scope, the rifle, the mounts, and the nut behind the butt's shooting skills.... I.e. - the entire system.

Now that's a better - should you try this in the field test than anything else - this is for sure.

I've still missed a critter by jerking the trigger without even spinning a turret.... So I sure the heck don't think I'm perfect.

Spot

Matt,
Sent you a PM. No way a man could argue with your post. I am fortunate enough to have one of those famed barrels out of Clay Spencers shop. Next barrel comes out of the shop in Verona and I cannot wait.
Pics of that JD project when it's done please.

Dave

Dave,
Had to correct a mistake. Here it is once more:

Gentlemen,
I've typed this out and erased it a couple of times as I really did not want to get into the discussion with those who defend or attack Leopold from an emotional and not a factual standpoint, however, I THINK this may have some value to this conversation. Realize I have shared this before, the source is beyond reproach, and it is offered for your consideration ONLY. I'm not here to argue the fact as benchrest is NOT my thing. Holding zero interests me greatly...

I was talking to Clay Spencer some years ago regarding having him build me one of his famous "Virginia Hog Rifles" in 6BR. He guarantees them to shoot into a .25" at 100 yards for 5 shots, using bullets he had made(or two others), shot from his covered range, AFTER he has shown you how to hand load to his standards. At the time they would have also been shot down a barrel that he had button rifled and cryogenically treated as well. If you know how small his shop is you would be amazed at what the man could do per square foot and keep it perfectly clean...

He told me that I would have to buy either a Leopold 6.5-20x40 EFR OR a Nightforce BR Scope. I had already bought my first scope, a Nightforce 8-32x56 BR, from Bill Shehane at the VA1000 in Remington, Virginia in 1997, however, I could tell Mr. Spencer had more he wanted to say so I asked which he recommended. He said it did not matter unless the weight was an issue in carrying the rifle. I pushed on the Leopold and he started to explain the following. I should begin by saying that Clay Spencer does not suffer fools. He works on the 1-2 insults for 1 piece of solid information rule. With him it is well worth the insult tradeoff...

He said, and I apologize for not writing down the man's name, that there was one man at Leopold who understood the inability of their scopes to hold zero with an accurate rifle. He said that he was essentially the lone voice of dissent within the organization. He knew the scopes needed to be built to stand up to recoil from both directions and hence that is how the EFR became known as an "air rifle" scope with Extended Focus Range. At any rate Mr. Spencer went on to say Leopold's New Competition Scopes(at that time) had the very same problem as the older 1" tubed 36x BR scopes. Ironically enough the man who had pushed for the EFR scope(s) had retired, however, his son was still employed by Leopold and called Mr. Spencer to ask him why he did not recommend the new fixed power competition scopes. Mr. Spencer told him what I related above. New scope same problem. He was offered a scope and he turned it down. He suggested they fix the problem and send him a scope for testing and he would give them and honest take and send it back...

At this point Mr. Spencer went on to explain that most shooters, even many BR shooters, DO NOT HAVE a rifle that is consistently ACCURATE ENOUGH to actually TEST A SCOPE. He made his own bullets, barrels, and did his own machine work and bedding. He farmed out Custom Actions, Jewell Triggers, and Stocks. When I would ask about which bullet for said twist he would reply in a number that was several hundred thousand revolutions per minute. He has never struck me as anything other than a man who has dug deeper into "excellence" to know his trade and to carry it to the next level. Will never forget telling him I wanted an 11 degree target crown and he said the HP WHITE Laboratories had done quite a bit of work on that and found that gas exited the muzzle at something closer to 13 degrees. What do you say to that?

Went to see his shop and noticed his Romi CNC lathe with a Barrel Chucked up for Chambering and he was getting the breach bore to 50 MILLIONTHS of an Inch Total Indicated Run Out... I'd alway thought working do .0001"ths would be the height of my chambering/machining ability IF I could get a lathe that would hold those numbers. Should anyone want to call bullshit on the the above number D'arcy Echols has seen and relayed the very same thing. He is a friend of Clay's and visits when he returns home to Charlottesville...

Moral of the story is Mr. Spencer was not talking about the scopes ability to track, however, his problem was the scopes ability to maintain zero from shot to shot. To spoon feed this I will remind you he was not talking about a .338 Lapua but a 6BR. I actually was very happy with a borrowed 6.5-20x40 EFR that dated from the late 80's on my 40X. Then I replaced it with Hubble, the Nightforce and the dreaded .125" click, no zero stop, etc.. I later went on to buy a brand new VX-3 6.5-20x40 EFR while I was going to Gunsmithing School in Colorado(through a Leopold discount program though I wonder if we got seconds;-), and hoping D'arcy would not find help until I finished, but alas he did... At any rate I brought that new Leopold home and mounted on a Beautiful new Anschutz Meister Grade 1913 in .22 LR... In full sunlight it was optically the dullest scope I have ever tried to shoot with.. In short I had to nearly give it away and I have yet to replace it as there are few scopes that fit that role well.

The take home message from my trip down the rabbit hole was Mr. Spencer and Leopold's inability to hold zero even with a light recoiling 6BR with anything other than the 6.5-20x40 EFR. I've shot a good one and I've owned one that was as dull as Joe Biden. Don't know what the take home message is, however, there is evidently a reason for the BR guys having "warranty ending work" done on their Leupolds to get them to hold zero. Had it been anyone other than Clay Spencer and had I not had some personal experience with his level of the next level of excellence I may not of have put much credence in it. However, he is above the argument and is simply stating a fact. One that he can show you if he has the time and inclination...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-482-1593

Form

Just curious. What's your thoughts on the sightron siii 6-24? Track well? Hold zero? Glass?

So Matt in VA......with all due respect......how do you guys explain the fact that there are multitudes of hunters who've never had a problem with Leupy, after years/decades of use? I know guys who hunt all over the world with them, and yes, I have other makes of scopes as well.

Matt in Virginia's post sounds just like the conversations I used to have with a guy at my club, heavy into the Northeast bench rest circuit,and quite good at it.

Rick told me the biggest issues he had in BR was the scopes and Leupold BR scopes were well known for warranty trips back to the factory after 800 rounds or so,or after market modifications to make them hold zero.

Of course these BR guys are different animals from BG hunters and if the hunters get some slight shifting in the scope their rifles are likely not accurate enough to even notice it.We'll still kill animals and never even know we missed a beat. But a good BR shooter will,and his rifle is also up to the task.

Anyway I thought Matt's post was interesting even though I do not BR shoot myself. He corroborates what Rick used to tell me about scope snafus and with exactly the same scopes..

Kahles are really good at tracking.

JGRaider,
Your reading comprehension must track along the bottom of the Bell Curve... Did you notice anywhere in that discussion about Clay Spencer's observations, not mine mind you, saying anything about Leupold Scopes not holding zero well enough to hit a game animal? Turn the ego investment off and read through my post again for comprehension. You might be amazed what information slips through when you don't have an agenda...

He was referring to changes in point of aim point point of impact so small that one of HIS 6BRs shooting a bullet he made, in his barrel, button rifled by him, cryogenically treated by him, chambered by him in his Romi CNC Lathe chucked up to 50 millionths total indicated runout at the breach, and mated to a receiver he has either trued or checked over no matter the maker to be as perfectly square to the world as possible, etc AND SHOT ON HIS OWN COVERED RANGE OUTSIDE THE BACK DOOR OF HIS SHOP with the ability to wait for ideal conditions...

If more of us could step out of our garage/barn to a covered walk and firing line to our Bench we leave setup 24/7/365 and get our sand bags out or gucci front and rear rests out of a protective box beside said bench and start shooting there would less BS on many of these boards. We have to much talking, posturing, and general bullshit and not enough scientific method.

Merry Christmas Gentlemen...

Regards, Matt Garrett

[quote=JGRaider]So Matt in VA......with all due respect......how do you guys explain the fact that there are multitudes of hunters who've never had a problem with Leupy, after years/decades of use? I know guys who hunt all over the world with them, and yes, I have other makes of scopes as well. [/quote) I think most hunters and most of their rifles could not detect a quarter or half inch change in point of impact.if they do, they simply adjust their scope a click or two and forget it till next time. And for a deer out to 200 yrs it really doesn't matter. You have to remember that most of these hunters only shoot a box of shells a year, if that.

Well Matt, a little disappointed in your personal attacks, but so be it, as I precluded my question with an "with all due respect". Too bad you followed prototypical 24HCF tradition and took the low road.

I think there is no doubt that hunters have been harvesting game for a long time with leupold scopes. The vast majority never dialed. I think more recently with all the dialing the scopes seem to show tracking or return to zero errors more now.

fwiw,
It is assured that whenever the "L" word comes up any attempt at the rational is gone. A few of the reasons I am a Leupold hater:

1. Shot my tightest 5 shot group with a #3 Broughton 5C in .223 AI that were actually the first five fully fire formed cases fired in the chamber. The cases were factory Winchester Varmint and they were fairly heavily prepped, sorted, and yet the H-335 was thrown, and the 40 grain BTs were straight out of the box. Scope was a Leupold 4.5-14x40 LR. Would rifle or handloads do that regularly? Dunno... Doubt it. Not a BR guy.

2. First group at anything beyond 100 yards when I was about 25. Had bought a new Remington 700 LTR bedded by the guys from Crane, who milled a bit of the the HS Precision bedding block away(horror JB) and bedded the receiver in Marine-Tex. With M118LR Sublot A I shot 7 rounds into slightly less than 2.49" at 525 yards. 6 were in a smaller group with 7 opening the group to the figure noted. Scope was a Leupold 3.5-10x40 LR M1 turned into a FFP Gen 2 Mil-Dot by the late Dick Thomas whom I considered a friend and mentor. He even helped me with Schmidt Bender when Schmidt Bender USA could not break a problem loose... He had given me that scope and I could kick myself for ever letting it get away...

3. Most fox killed on a single stand: Six sets of eyes coming to the truck and I had the same FFP Gen II Mil-Dot LR M1 atop an M40A1ish .223. Dropped all six with one hail mary running shot even with a jackass on the light trying to make me miss. He failed and they cashed in their chips... I found a new Fox Hunting Buddy...

I can sit here and go through many positive experience I have had with Leupolds, however, they are not going to help anyone and most people don't want to hear recycled hunting or shooting stories. Including me. If Ross Seyfried did not write the hunting story I'd just as soon you keep it to yourself...

What might be of interest to some.... I actually really like and admire LEUPOLD & STEVENS, maybe the OLD Leopold & Stevens, to the point I don't pull punches to cover up something when they "halfass it" in the extreme. I know they can do better and I point that out.

I'd love to try their Mark 8 3.5-25x56 right now, however, I can't say I have a great deal of faith in it without running it a bit. Further I can get a Schmidt Bender for the asking. The Leopold is $3250 out of pocket, requires a 35mm mount, and it is sketchy about getting your money out of one... That said I could pull the trigger if someone would make me a deal...

I could be good publicity guys. It would a Leopold on an AI. Have them in .308 and .338 Lapua with a .300 WinMag likely after Christmas... Switching barrels is OK, however, I'd just as soon have another rifle...

Regards, Matt Garrett.

Quoting this from the first page just to say, THIS. This is why it matters to me. I liked Matt's post but in the end, very tiny "failures" aren't really the concern for me they seem to be for BR shooters.

But half having a problem bad enough to cause a miss on vitals at 500 yards?! That gets my attention. Every one of my hunting rifles, except the .358, is set up to go to at least 500 yards.

Matt, by the way, the 50 millions tolerance you mention is very impressive. I believe that's the runout spec for an HLV at the nose, and they grind the 5c nose taper in situ to hit that spec. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and watch him work. He ain't doing it between centers on an old Logan!

While researching my Whacheon I saw you asking around about Mori manual machines some years ago. Did you get one? My Whach is a beautiful machine.

Anyway......

JGRaider,
Commenting on your inability to comprehend what was posted was hardly an attack. It was a statement of fact. Further real courtesy does not have to announced like a guest at a formal ball. It is clearly evident by your conduct. Most folks tend to start anything but a respectful response when they declare "with all due respect". Your response was no different.

Your inability to comprehend the discussion leads to one of two obvious reasons. Either you were to lazy to read the post and you fired off your "response" that did not in any way address the points posed and merely wallowed in generalities. The second possibility is that you are a middling intellect and are unable to understand... I sincerely hope for your sake that it is the former and not the latter. That said, if you are able, read for comprehension before you fire another broadside of blather when you don't even know the target or the question in this case...

Regards, Matt.

Jeff,
Far out of my pay grade. Mr. Spencer works on a different level... Oddly enough D'arcy and I talked about that for a while. He is not a talent for wood, nor is he big on scratches on metal(engraving according to Ross Seyfried;-), however, he carried precision and repeatability to a new level.

I have no illusions that I will ever work to his level, nor in all honesty, am I 100% certain it is necessary. Don't get me wrong it is great if you have it, however, I just wonder what it really brings. He can bring research resolution that others can't offer which is most interesting. That said the BR guys shoot so well you can't shoot an inverse group... I'm happy to hit on the .001" or .0005" every time on headspace..;-).

I did not get my own Mori from Greer. Great lathes just to far through the head stock for me. I love the machine and being able to buy a new Wacheon is grand.

I actually looked at an HLVH when I bought my new Hardinge Bridgeport from MSC in 07'. I was there to sign off on the DRO. Went Newall which is fair, however, I wish they would have offered Heidenhain with glass scales. Fell in love with an HLVH they had on the floor and it was BRAND NEW and available at $49K and they would have made a deal on that...

Looking at a Haas TL-1 or TL-2, however, I still have to buy a manual machine...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Or the 3rd possibility is that you simply delight in being a priiick. Carry on.....

Not Matt but ill take a stab at it.
Its pretty much always revolves around round count.And the type of accuracy your looking for...
These threads always wind down into a BR vs hunting type of thing.Its apples and oranges.And unfortunate.
In my short range BR days I found Leupold 36x BR scopes would start to open up around 900 rounds or so.I had 4 of them and one did manage to go 1100 before it started to give me trouble.
What kind of trouble am I talking about?
A very accurate 6mm PPC 13.5 pound HV rifle needs to shoot under .2 consistently if you want to have any hope of being competitive.Thats sub .2 MOA at 100 and 200 yards for 50 rounds fired..
I had bran new or almost new barrels that I knew would go sub .2 and I was lucky to get a .4 or even sometimes a sub .5. Swap out the lupie, and your sub .2 again.Seen it happen with my scopes and the people I shot with, over and over again.
800 to 900 rounds always seemed to be where the problems started to show up.
With practice and load development and multiple matches that round count just explodes.At one point I needed two barrels just to get through a summer season.Its alot of shooting.
The thing is, in short range BR.You cant tolerate .2 of crap in your scope.Sometimes youll get .2 of crap in your scope and it will just stop.And sometimes the crap just keeps getting worse.
Tony Boyer had a lupie that he called his .25 scope.It had a built in .25 of crap.But it never got any worse.He kept it and used it for days when the conditions were chit.
The average hunter takes his M700 BDL 270 WCF and shoots, what, 80 rounds a year.It takes him decades to get to the number of rounds fired that we could very well put down range in a month.It makes a difference.I always found most new lupies to be pretty damm good out of the box.Add that to the fact that your not looking for .2 accuracy out of a 270 WCF deer getter, and its pretty easy to understand why multitudes of hunters have never had a problem.
Apples and oranges.

dave

One of the guys I shoot against all summer in my 1000 BR Silhouette game, is running fixed 35x Leupold Competition scopes on both his 12 and 17 pound rifles.He ran both all summer so he has 1 year under his belt with them.These are unmodified, no Tucker conversions, at least not yet.No problems as of yet.I got to look at his heavy gun last summer and I have to admit that the glass is excellent.
Its not S&B glass.But it is as good looking as my NSX and my March.I was impressed.
These scopes weigh in at like 19 oz and there cheeper than NF and March by quite a bit.Only thing I saw I didnt like was its got something like 7 or 7.5 MOA per revolution of up elevation.
Not sure what retard at lupie came up with that chit.10 MOA is the only way to fly when dialing for 850,900,950 and 1000 and back again all day long.

dave