Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Excellent article on Improved Cartridges

+1




Dave

Yeah and these are IMproved tooo.

"There are some good improved cartridges. The 308 Winchester is an improved 300 savage. Then 243 Winchester, 260, 7mm08, 358 are all improved 308 Winchesters. The 35 Whelan, 270, 25-06 are improved 30-06. The 300 weatherby in an improved 300HH." .... baltz526...P 3


Jerry

At this point I'm beginning to wonder if anybody else except the OP has actually read the article that started this thread, because so far every insight posted here (except for Savage99's cluelessness) was discussed in the magazine, along with some other points.

But hey, as Savage99 points out, the Campfire is free! Read enough posts and you'll eventually get some information! Which is why he's so well-informed.

It seems that a couple of writers these days only write stuff that tries to dispel a myth. Sure gets old.

John, I did not read your article, I was just being flip, for I just have never had any interest in AI cartridges. Even though I load practically all of my ammo, I've never acquired the taste. Cheers, j

Jorge, your post on Weatherbys may have been flip but was right on. The early Weatherby rounds are part of the article, especially the .300, the only improved .300 H&H (and there were several) to become a commercial cartridge.

Savage99 is a treasure trove of knowledge..

I didn't read it because i don't have it yet. I was just agreeing with Jorg.

But I will!

Yeah, one reason not many have read it is the OP has an on-line subscription, so gets his copy at least a couple weeks ahead of the print copies. In late December the delay is probably longer in most places, because of the volume of Christmas mail. I haven't even gotten my "hard copy" from Wolfe yet.

The same for me as well.

If I wanted 'any' improved cartridge I would simply get the next larger. I have had multiple rifles in various cartridges and bought/sold/traded for so many years.... I've spread the shooting around enuff that the advantage of 'longer' case life isn't that important to me.

NOTE: I'm not critical of others who go that route. It's fine with me, just not for me.


Someone of note has said repeatedly, the higher velocity (speed) of AI cartridges comes from excess pressure RATHER than a few more grains of powder.


Jerry




***If you want to improve the 280 Rem get a 270 Win***

Jerry,

The article is about improved cartridges of any kind, including the .22 K-Hornet (which was apparently the very first improved cartridge) and the .300 Weatherby, not just Ackley Improveds.

No, the velocity advantage doesn't come only from higher pressures, though that's a lot of it in many AI cartridges based on modern rounds. How much depends on the round being improved.

Also, velocity isn't the only advantage to improved rounds, and the other advantages are specifically discussed. And the article isn't a knock on improved rounds, as a few people have posted (without reading it) on this thread, from the very first page on.

J. E. Zoerb would have laughed at this!

I don't want to argue with you but the AIs are the only ones I referenced.




Jerry

Thanks, John, I did enjoy your article on rust prevention in Sporting Classics or Sports Afield !

I currently have 2 AI's, or immitations thereof. I have a .35 Whelen Ackley, and a version of the .35/.303 Imp. in a #4 Enfield. The Whelen does 2640 fps. with Nosler 250's and absolutely no pressure indications of any kind. That's the velocity level I wanted - just enough to have a trajectory very closely similar to the .308 Win. round. For the .35/.303, I just wanted to approximate the .358 Win., and the version I have does that very well. The min. body taper and sharp shoulder (45* on mine) make for just about exactly the same internal capacity. I don't load it as stoutly as I could, and in the old Enfield action, I don't want to press it much so I can get good brass life.

Would I do it again? WIth the .35/.303, probably, but with the Whelen, after forming cases, etc., I think I'd likely just get a .338 and leave off the forming, not to mention the greater uncertainty of loading data. For the Whelen, I've just used an avg. charge from a number of manuals with any given powder, plus 5% added to allow for the increased powder capacity, and that's worked great for me. Best powder so far is VV N-540, and that gives me the 2640 fps. with the 250 Noslers. Darn good load, but the magazine feeding and case forming gets old after you've done it a time or two. Have also had .256 Win. and .30 Herrett, too, but got tired of forming those cases also. Loved them all, but we have stuff now that's just less trouble, and I'm gettin' lazier the older I get. Seems to be an epidemic goin' around?

I just got around to reading the article JB wrote in HL-300. There's been plenty of wildcatters thru the years, some with incredulous claims about velocity increases at professed safe pressures.

I'll throw this graphic into the fray. It's one I drew up in AutoCAD a number of years back to show myself the actual differences in some of these "improvements". Will say that my first foray into wildcatting was rechambering a Ruger #1B in '06 to .30 Gibbs. Taught me a lot about wildcatting and what 70+kpsi does to cases and primer pockets.



I did take note of JB's comments about Wby's claim that the double radius shoulder transformed some of the burning powder into pixie dust and thus enhanced velocity (well, not exactly those words). I recall a well know wildcatter and rifle builder with the initials of F.Z. He had posted this gem on his website to "prove" his designs were better than the others.



We had several heated discussions on how this was possible, but his claim and graphic were thoroughly backed up by pressure testing and chronographing, so physics and thermodynamics be damned.

I read the article last night.
I still think J. E Zoerb and Richard Simmons would get a laugh out of the first statements on the K-Hornet.
Harvey Donaldson once wrote his friend M. S. Risley made the first reamer for the Kilbourn Hornet and reamed the first chamber for Lysle Kilbourn.
Donaldson, Risley (and later, Ed Yard) believed there was little actual advantage to the Improved Hornet over the standard case – I will add with the powder available at the time of their writing.
Certainly the .22-3000, the R-2 Donaldson/Lovell and the ,22-4000 appeared prior to the K-Hornet. But these are small matters.

I believe a rimless cartridge chamber reamed with an Ackley Improved reamer with the barrel not set back cannot be referred to as an AI chamber. There are many of these rifles floating around and they muddy the water when discussing Ackley Improved chambers. Not all Ackley wildcats were intended to be able to fire factory ammunition to fire form the case.

The interesting area for discussion is pressure. I do not believe any of the “early” wildcatters had any thought of remaining within the pressure limits of the factory cartridge. Ackley was not the only writer to discuss higher pressures associated with wildcat cartridges. F. C. Ness and others discussed the higher pressures associated with wildcat cartridges many times. The notion the Improved cartridge should be held to the same pressure limit as the factory cartridge appears to have been first brought forward by Phil Sharpe pre-WWII and then the H. P. White Laboratory post WWII.

There is no point in in bringing up E. Baden Powell and Ralph Waldo Miller along with their PMVF cartridges which were undoubtedly an inspiration for Weatherby.

I haven't seen John's article, but the topic reminds me of Gil Sengel's 1986 article in Handloader 123, ".30-06 versus .30-06 Improved." His last sentence was "The answer is: very, very little."

The lgs here has .219 Zipper on the shelf. But then, they have most rounds. You can even get a lifetime supply of 8mm Lebel from them.

I pulled the barrel from a very accurate 22-250 Savage 114V and had the chamber reamed to accept 22-243ai brass. Dies came from 4D.

I like 60 gr bullets in 14 inch twist 22 cal, and this rifle will certainly go places a swift can only dream about. If only for a limited number of times.

A totally boring rifle which had sat unused in the back of the safe for several years instantly became interesting again.

A firearm one is bored with and does not use is of no use and might as well be sold or altered.