I have bought and owned a lot of guns and never once asked how well the gun shot. A cursory look at condition and the throat are all I have ever considered when buying a gun. The last thing I worry about is how well a rifle shoots, when 99% of them shoot better than the guy that owns it.
When I sell a gun, I don't discuss groups or round count. The gun is as described and that will do. If it doesn't shoot to someone's expectations, that isn't my fault, as I didn't build the gun, I just owned it.
To misrepresent a gun with a known problem is an issue that would be regarded as wrong and shouldn't be done, but how it shoots is so subjective that I don't waste much time discussing that...
All this from the guy that actually tried to Out-Claiborne Safariman.
Gotta admire that!
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I sent Mark a junker of a .22 once and he didn't like it. It was real cheap, but he still didn't like it and I gladly took it back. He wasn't mad, I was a bit embarrassed, but no one got hurt. Mark has an open invitation to me to came and spend time with him at my leisure, and I just may take him up on it sometime...
Not all incomplete transactions need to be sour. I always allow the buyer his determination of anything I sell and I demand satisfaction or return the item. I honestly think Mark would deliver anything I would get from him in person if I wanted it bad enough...
Almost daily I see a common theme play itself out on at least one of the gun forums I frequent. Shooter buys a gun. Gun isn't accurate enough for shooter. Shooter sells gun. New shooter now has a problem gun. I suppose in some cases shooter tells buyer the gun is an accuracy dud, but I am reckoning that is the exception.
How do you in good conscience sell a gun that doesn't perform well without telling the buyer? My morality won't let me do that.
I think you're an idiot. I mean that most respectfully, but I mean it.
When I buy a used gun, I assume it is a used gun. It's either worn out or is not meeting someone's need else they would not be selling it.
Anybody buying a used gun expecting it to be pristine, only 3 rounds down the barrel, capable of bughole groups is a friggin' retard. Gun buying / selling ... "it takes two to tango." You sound like you've been burned by being a friggin' retard and you're trying to duck taking responsibility for your participation.
Tom
Tom, thank you for your honesty, but in the midst of rushing to tell me you think I am an idiot, you missed the point of the post. I'll help you. It's about what is going on in the mind of someone who knowingly sells a gun that they consider inadequate and the morality/ethics of doing so. It's not about assumptions we make as purchasers.
I have never been burned. I made the impetus of the thread quite clear in the OP.
How would someone unknowingly sell a gun they consider inadequate..
Why would they sell a gun they consider adequate?
If I don't want the gun anymore what am I supposed to do with it?
T O M is correct in his thoughts
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
I have bought and owned a lot of guns and never once asked how well the gun shot. A cursory look at condition and the throat are all I have ever considered when buying a gun. The last thing I worry about is how well a rifle shoots, when 99% of them shoot better than the guy that owns it.
When I sell a gun, I don't discuss groups or round count. The gun is as described and that will do. If it doesn't shoot to someone's expectations, that isn't my fault, as I didn't build the gun, I just owned it.
To misrepresent a gun with a known problem is an issue that would be regarded as wrong and shouldn't be done, but how it shoots is so subjective that I don't waste much time discussing that...
What if I'm a great shot and my handloads average 3/4 MOA....and I sell my 788 to a shakey alcoholic that runs Remington factory core-lokts and shoots off the top of his truck hood?
Do I owe him a refund for accuracy issues after he missed the deer and scratched the stock on the truck window?
I don't think that was a serious question, but I'll play like it was. First, you don't "run" ammo, you shoot it. More on point though, you treat people the way you like to be treated yourself. That philosophy has always served me well..
So Paul, You treat everyone with that holier than thou, "I set the moral rules and you're no good if you don't agree" attitude. If you believe in the golden rule you must realize that the Lord said "judge not that ye be not judged". Most people don't particularly care for sanctimony.
And I'll "run" my ammo if I like.
What moral rule did I set for anyone? Where did I say "you're no good if you don't agree? Give me the screen name of one person I judged.
Yes, just like the two board members that sold me the ones that failed to feed from the magazine. They sold cheap cause they couldn't fix them I guess, I spent about fifty dollars for each for repairs and ended up with gems.
Did you know there was the feeding issue before you bought them? If not do you wish you had known about the defect?
I didn't care, That's part of the gamble you take when buy something used. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you score big. I try to be man enough not to cry about little things. I have two handguns in my safe that I just bought. Both are unknowns, if they work well all's good. If not I'll fix them.
Folks, this is the very kind of response I was looking for. He didn't get butthurt. He didn't read into my post what was not there. He answered my questions about his morality/ethics and owned his answers.
I have bought and owned a lot of guns and never once asked how well the gun shot. A cursory look at condition and the throat are all I have ever considered when buying a gun. The last thing I worry about is how well a rifle shoots, when 99% of them shoot better than the guy that owns it.
When I sell a gun, I don't discuss groups or round count. The gun is as described and that will do. If it doesn't shoot to someone's expectations, that isn't my fault, as I didn't build the gun, I just owned it.
To misrepresent a gun with a known problem is an issue that would be regarded as wrong and shouldn't be done, but how it shoots is so subjective that I don't waste much time discussing that...
All this from the guy that actually tried to Out-Claiborne Safariman.
Gotta admire that!
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I sent Mark a junker of a .22 once and he didn't like it. It was real cheap, but he still didn't like it and I gladly took it back. He wasn't mad, I was a bit embarrassed, but no one got hurt. Mark has an open invitation to me to came and spend time with him at my leisure, and I just may take him up on it sometime...
Not all incomplete transactions need to be sour. I always allow the buyer his determination of anything I sell and I demand satisfaction or return the item. I honestly think Mark would deliver anything I would get from him in person if I wanted it bad enough...
.
"Those that think they know everything are annoying those of us that have Google." - Dr. D. Edward Wilkinson
Note to self: Never ask an old Fogey how he is doing today. Revised note to self: Keep it short when someone asks how I am doing.
This is easy. I have a local shop that tries to shaft everyone that walks in. .22 ammo repackaged from WalMart at inflated prices, poorly lit store so you have a difficult time determining the condition of the gun, gruff sales staff, damaged guns with the damage covered up, etc. If I wanted to get rid of a turd, I am pretty sure I know where I would go...
Wait just a minute here. If there is going to be any discussion of a newly recognized deity here on the 'fire, you'll need to run that through me, thank you, or else I'm going to complain to the shop steward.
Ah, Shaman. You didn't see that coming? After all you are a Shaman. Hmm...
When its time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to get on Noah's Arc... and brother, it is starting to rain!
Tom, thank you for your honesty, but in the midst of rushing to tell me you think I am an idiot, you missed the point of the post. I'll help you. It's about what is going on in the mind of someone who knowingly sells a gun that they consider inadequate and the morality/ethics of doing so. It's not about assumptions we make as purchasers.
I have never been burned. I made the impetus of the thread quite clear in the OP.
Ok, for the sake of discussion I'll buy that.
As long as any statements of safety or performance made by the seller are not known by that seller to be untrue, there's no ethical or moral issue. Morality/ethics only come into play when a seller deliberately and knowingly misrepresents the product to artificially inflate its value.
If both parties are fairly gun-savvy it is somewhat incumbent on the purchaser to ask right questions just as it is for the seller to be honest in their answers. If the purchaser is not, it's not right to take advantage of them. I don't see too many people not willing to skin a seller if the seller messed up and low-balled the price. It has to go both ways.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
If somebody wants a guaranty, they need to buy a new gun.
Yup
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Folks, this is the very kind of response I was looking for. He didn't get butthurt. He didn't read into my post what was not there. He answered my questions about his morality/ethics and owned his answers.
And I didn't????
Originally Posted by Scott F
I have had three that would not shoot worth a darn. All three went to people who knew and did not care. All three were sold discounted because of their inaccuracy. All three got a money back trial period.
I sleep at night. I have sold guns to people who would still call me a friend.
Yet you still refuse to answer my questions.
You titled your post "I Question Your Ethics/Morality". You question our ethics/morality. That means you are accusing us of having lesser ethics and morals that you. Please, with all due respect, show me where I am wrong in my interpretation of the title of your original post.
Tom, thank you for your honesty, but in the midst of rushing to tell me you think I am an idiot, you missed the point of the post. I'll help you. It's about what is going on in the mind of someone who knowingly sells a gun that they consider inadequate and the morality/ethics of doing so. It's not about assumptions we make as purchasers.
I have never been burned. I made the impetus of the thread quite clear in the OP.
Ok, for the sake of discussion I'll buy that.
As long as any statements of safety or performance made by the seller are not known by that seller to be untrue, there's no ethical or moral issue. Morality/ethics only come into play when a seller deliberately and knowingly misrepresents the product to artificially inflate its value.
If both parties are fairly gun-savvy it is somewhat incumbent on the purchaser to ask right questions just as it is for the seller to be honest in their answers. If the purchaser is not, it's not right to take advantage of them. I don't see too many people not willing to skin a seller if the seller messed up and low-balled the price. It has to go both ways.
If somebody wants a guaranty, they need to buy a new gun.
I understand your point, BUT- Unfortunately most production rifle manufacturers seem to consider hitting a pie plate at 100 yards as acceptable accuracy.
The thing that I find problematic about this thread is that there is the assumption of a moral obligation on the seller's part to anticipate the results the buyer will have. I would never sell a gun I knew had a potentially fatal flaw in it. I would never sell a defective gun to a mental cripple. However, if you come to me, wanting to buy a gun, and we agree on a price, that's all there is to it..
There is no such assumption. Let me ask you this. You are an experienced shooter and gun owner. If you bought a sporter weight bolt action rifle from Ruger or Remington for example, and you couldn't get that gun to group better than 4 inches at 100 (yards, would you disclose that if and when you sold it?
Been there a couple times. Sold the rifles accompanied by average targets.
They were accurate enough to put a bullet into the vitals of an elk at 300 yds. (10 inches at 300 yds) And in both cases the purchasers have used them to kill numerous head of big game and are happy as hell.
No, I could not sell a problem rifle to an unsuspecting buyer. Otherwise, this boat paddle ruger in 260 would already have gone through the free classifieds.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
When I sell a gun, I don't discuss groups or round count. The gun is as described and that will do. If it doesn't shoot to someone's expectations, that isn't my fault, as I didn't build the gun, I just owned it.
I always get a kick out of when someone asks the round count on a hunting rifle. That question has tire kicker written all over it.
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