Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Which is the better design?

Dr. Howell and others, in your opinion which of the new short mags is the better design. You here more about the WSM, but I recently read a post by a notable gunsmith who 'thunk' the Rem the better designed version.

Neither cartridge has interested me enough for me to look into it, so I don't know enough about either one to opine intelligently.

Pointer, theories go around and around which is best chocolate or strawberry. Who is going to sell the most Remington or Winchester...the proof is in the shooting and in the math.
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<br>Bullwnkl.

Ken,
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<br>"Neither cartridge has interested me enough for me to look into it, so I don't know enough about either one to opine intelligently."
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<br>I couldn't agree more.
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<br>ZM
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The WSM line has resulted in allocation of certain rifles due to demand. There is considerable interest in these cartridges. Since the object of gun companies is to sell new product it seems that they will do more of the same.
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Yeah, who would want a cartridge that will give similar performance as a 300 WM, while using 10+% less powder and in a package that is inherently accurate? Sounds like a loser to me (grin).

It seems to me that these will be "made" by the folks who write for the magazines.The advantages they offer-which you mention- are just not that important to most users left to their own devices.
<br>I'll stand corrected when the target guys start using them [ accuracy ] or the custom builders desert their present favorites and start touting the short ones based on feedback from their customers.
<br>Either of them necked down to 257 does seem to offer something,but I'm not getting rid of my 257 WBY and 257 AI, replacing 2 rifles with one.That's counter productive for a gun nut!

<br>Short, fat, and beltless are wonderful things for single-shot target and varmint rifles. However, they are a pain to make feed properly from a magazine. Some folks have had no problems, while many others have experienced jams or have reported their rifles experiencing uncontrolled magazine regurgitation - yes, a technical term.
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<br>The notion that the short mags generate as much energy as the .300 WinMag or H&H is simply not correct. If you considered chamber pressure as the constant, the short mags come up, well... short. Yes you can push pressures in the short mags and use anemic factory loads in the .300 WinMag and close the performance gap a little. However, the added case capacity of the WinMag simply outperforms the short magnum.
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<br>Two other interesting trends with the short magnums - 1. They are not as accurate when pushing max loads. The best accuracy is generally achieved at mid range load densities. 2. Both Win and Rem are having a difficult time manufacturing quality brass for the short mags (and interestingly the Ultra mags as well). Case life is a problem - a problem compounded by excessive chamber pressures.
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<br>Short and fat has been around for a long time. In the LR target community, the 6.5-284 has ruled supreme for the past six years and the 6 PPC dominated the 100 yard range for over a dozen years. Unless you are just after a short action rifle, the short mags don�t really measure up - that is unless you are a sales rep or accountant with Win or Rem. Then, the short mags are the best thing since sliced bread.
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<br>As far as which short mag is �better� - they are almost identical in performance. The only consideration would be to look at the manufacturer and ask this question - �Which one will discontinue it quicker?� Considering Remington long history of abandoning poor sellers, I would pick the Winchester any day. Remington�s board of directors are much more �corporate� in their thinking. It would appear that they would just as soon be manufacturing mops over guns. Of course their quality mirrors this thinking...
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Zero Drift,
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<br>The WSM that I have feeds perfectly. In fact it feeds better than the pre 64 M70 in .300 H&H that I have been shooting all year. The chamber and barrel in this Stainless Classic are as smooth as any rifle that I have ever had and that includes 40X's and rebarreled 40X's with custom barrels.
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<br>The accuracy of my 7M WSM is excellent with full power loads. I have seen no difference between lighter loads and full power loads. The only accuracy problem that I had with the rifle was bedding related.
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<br>Of course a larger case will produce more velocity but the shorter WSM case does leave more barrel length to gain efficiency.
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<br>What short magnums do you have?
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<br>In summary I feel that the new short cartridges are way overdue and have created intererest in new rifles. I look forward to more introductions that may lead to the end of the belted cases.
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<br>There is a article in Precision shooting outlining the benefits of short cases and sharp shoulder angles in terms of the primer igniting the powder in the case and not in the bore.
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<br>We can buy what we want but some of these posts on the new short cartridges seem to be making up stuff and others are sour grapes as they did not think of it themselves.
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<br>Don

<br>Don I have
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<br>1 - 6 PPC
<br>1 - 6mm-284 (just sold)
<br>2 - 6.5mm-284 (both target guns)
<br>And I am in the process of building a .270 WSM target/varmint gun.
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<br>I have a lot of experience with the �shorts�. I did not wish to imply that every short mag is a problem. However, if you look at the number of new guns being sent back to the factory or speak with the larger gunsmith operations, there are a lot of feed problems out there.
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<br>Yes, there are plenty of good gunsmiths that can make short and fat cases feed well from the magazine. Lazzeroni is renowned for making their guns reliably feed their line of short magnums. It is not impossible, however, the mass manufacturers are still figuring out their magazine follower and rail problem. I am sure they will get a handle on it sooner or later.

Zero Drift, I do have a great deal of respect for your post, but I do have to ask you. Are your conclusions based upon personal time and knowledge with the short mags? Do you own a short mag?
<br>I do.
<br>On your first statment of feeding problems, I have put
<br>at least 340 rounds through a M70 300 WSM all with
<br>no feeding problems. Maybe the early models did and
<br>Win corrected it.
<br>As far as "velocability" with the short mags. Mine equalls the H&H which suits me just fine. A 180 leaving
<br>the barreal at 3,100 fps is fine for me. 150s at 3,300 is
<br>not coming up short as far as ability to do a job.
<br>The short mag is the easiest and most non finiky round I have ever loaded for. I have not seen pressure signs to indicat problems. Im still using the same brass for several loadings.
<br>As far as accurate, My shoots under MOA, I think thats
<br>pretty good coming out of a factory Featherweight with
<br>not even a trigger job done to it yet.
<br>As far as the manufactures trying to make a buck, well
<br>good for them thats why I live in America. That was
<br>the manufactures goal when they came out with the
<br>7mm Rem or 300 Win mags. They succeded. I hope
<br>the next generation of thought succeds as well.
<br>I respect Remington and Winchester for bringing out
<br>new cartridges, They put it on the line, throw it out there
<br>so to speak and see if something happens, maybe Joe public will like it. We saw value in it... . Who can knock the 350 Rem Mag? Who wants a vanilla 30-06? I dont.
<br>I like variety and the choices they, the manufactures offer.
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<br>I believe Charles Newton was way before his time
<br>with his beltless cartridges. Wish he would have succeded. The war is europe ended his dreams.
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<br>Just curious what do you think of the 35 Newton?

<br>SU35 - I knew I would be stepping into the chit for dis'n the short mag. In any event - as I stated, I have nothing against the short mag other than the hyperbola that has been expounded in the Gun Rags on the exceptional performance of the Win and Rem short mag. The cartridges are fine. They are good launching platforms. People who own them are basically good folks. If I found one injured on the side of the road, I would assist. etc, etc, etc.
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<br>Would I recommend a .300 (or other caliber) short mag over a .300 WinMag or 7mm WinMag or .270 Win for a hunting caliber - my answer is simply �No, there is nothing to be gained over their counterparts�. If you were building a gun for target accuracy, then short, fat, and beltless is the way to go.
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<br>In regards to the 35 Newton, it is a wonderful design (other than being a .35 caliber with a limited bullet selection). BTW - I own a few Dakota cartridge calibers (.404 Jeffery parent case) for the same reasons why the Newton is so good. It is a shame that the mass producers did not learn this lesson a long time ago.
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<br>In any event, if you absolutely want a Win or Rem short mag, go get one. You will make either of the two companies very happy. But don�t expect to meet or exceed the performance of other cartridge designs, and you may encounter some feeding issues. (There are still short mag rifles being returned to the factory with feed problems.)
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ZD You are a very brave man indeed! Beats bland and
<br>not wanting to step on a few toes. Keep going sir.
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<br>I not only shoot a 300 WSM but a 264 wm and now a
<br>338 wm. Why, because they do offer better performance in certain areas.
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When/if a .243 WSSM comes out I will buy one. The Stainless Classic that I just got is my first SS/plastic rifle and I sort of like it. They are a shock to me looks wise but I had the only one of the type at the camp last weekend and it snowed every day. I know my other buddies were looking at that rifle very close.
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<br>They had theirs all apart to clean and oil them and I got a laugh when I said I guess I could rinse mine off in the sink!

When a number of real world reviews accumulate, this will be the time to start an intelligent debate.
<br>On this and other forums, people with no first hand knowledge of the cartridge have poopooed it. There's intelligent/relevant commentary for you!
<br>Some of these newer designs will remain and others fade away. If no good comes from these cartridges as designed, they'll provide stepping stones to better equipment etc.
<br>No design is stupid. Keep an open mind and learn!
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<br>Safe Shooting!
<br>Steve Redgwell
<br>303british.com