Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Professional dog trainer - Worth it?

Hi all,

Many of you know that I recently got a Nova Scotia Duck Toller with the intention of him being a gun dog and family pet. We have had him since Christmas and he is coming along pretty good, but it is also obvious that I haven't had a dog in 20 years. I am considering sending him to a "local" (3 hr drive each way) hunting dog trainer that seems highly rated in order to get the kind of hunting companion I want. The trainer says 1 month for obedience training and at least 2 for hunting training. He raises pheasants and chukars as well, so the dog would get exposure to live birds and shooting.

Having never done this before (an it not being cheap) I am wondering if it is worth it? Any issues with the dog becoming detached from the family? Our pup will be 5.5 months at the time training would start.

Any info/opinions would be appreciated.

SS

Been biting my tongue on this one but here goes....Im not from the gun dog arena and I know things are done differently there...but as complicated as a skill set can be for a good gun dog I'm not a fan of having someone else train a dog and drop it off.......especially a toller...they have Border Collie bred into them generations ago and are capable of a great deal.
I personally would do my homework as fast as I could and train the dog myself.5 months is getting pretty old to start training.
One month for obedience and two months min. for hunt training......I could teach the dog to do your taxes in that amount of time.....
If you can train him yourself you become a 'team'....and stay that way without any transfer issues between trainer and handler.

Sorry, I know thats probably not the answer you were looking for, but like everyone else I have an opinion, and that was it.


FWIW in my area of dog training we have an old adage... " The only thing you can get two trainers to agree upon is what a third trainer is doing wrong..."

I see this as the OP having difficulty teaching the dog the basic commands. For that I feel investing the time and money in a decent trainer is money well spent. The difference between me and the consulted trainer is that the basics can be taught at home with the help of a local dog trainer.

Look in the community Ed pages, the Yellow Pages (or the online equivalent if you aren't a dinosaur like me), the local bulletin boards, or word of mouth for someone teaching basic obedience classes. These usually occur one night a week and their greatest benefit is not only teaching your dog what you want it to do but also teaching YOU what you need to know and do.

Sending the dog off for training without you getting trained will soon have your dog back to whatever point it left you and worse yet, it will have learned you are not the master of the pack and therefore it do not have to be listened to. Then you are in worse shape than before.

Spend the money on basic training for you and the dog and you will be miles ahead. Once you have reached that point, the task of training the dog will be less daunting as you will have a base to start from and some success to build confidence. From that point you can do the training yourself with just a little help. For that you could go a couple of ways.

First, you could send the dog to the trainer for training. Depending on what is meant by "trained" two months could be reasonable. Your dog will not refuse to bond with you, it takes more than a couple months for the pup to "forget" you. For proof, look at police and service dogs. They spend the first several months or even year in a foster home, go to a trainer, then get paired up with their handler for additional training. After that they are pretty dang loyal to their current handler- if you don't believe that, punch a K9 handler in front of their dog!

The negative is the dog will come back knowing what it needs to do but you would still be clueless as to what you need to do in keeping the dog's skills sharp. Soon, what you spent on training will be lost and you will be back to where you started- if lucky.

Secondly, you could see if you could have weekly or bi-weekly training sessions with your picked trainer. I know several trainers and they all offer such "classes" as it is a form of advertising if nothing else. The advantage of this is you would also be getting trained which will allow you to maintain your dog's level of training. This is my #2 recommendation due to time and cost based on the distance you describe.

My number one recommendation is to join a training group for the type of hunting you plan to do. I don't know of a group dedicated to the actual training of tolling but there are many that can help with retrieving and even upland flushing. It would probably be more than one group in the latter case but you should find at least one group of each closer than 3 hours to you. The advantage of these groups are in having more than one to help you with your dog and you will learn from others as you help them. Many of the members will be very knowledgable handlers and will be able to help you as well as a "pro" trainer. Being able to participate as an observer or helper rather than the handler allows one a different perspective and one can better concentrate on what is being done and how as there is less personal pressure to perform. Many times having more than two hands and one body available makes a much smoother and productive training session possible.

Another advantage besides seeing how others train is that you will typically be able to borrow or rent some equipment which will be helpful but rather expensive for one dog. Bird/dummy launchers is one part but even just plain old bumpers can get expensive when starting from scratch. Learning where one can economize is always a welcome part of dog training.

The only negative I can see in joining a club or clubs is it is addicting. Not only do you and your dog get an education but the socialization and commraderie is very rewarding. And that does not factor in tests and trials one often enters, even if only sometimes. This is also a real negative as some are geared more towards competition rather than "hunting" but one can still use their help to make a good hunting dog. By the time you realize this route is not for you, you and your dog will likely make a decent hunting team at the least.

You are at the point of starting the dog in its training. At the age the dog is, it should already have its basic commands down but there is still time as many "puppy" obedience classes request a pup to be at least 6 months old to start. In the "old days" a dog was often not started on formal training until a year old but techniques were often very heavy handed and a dog needed to be fairly well along in their mental maturity. Starting early usually means less "force" in the battle of wills that comes as the pup matures. If nothing else, the bites don't hurt as much...😀

^^^^^^^^^^^


THIS...is all excellent advice!

I pity the next guy who responds as we point out all the ways he is wrong!😀

Thanks for the input guys. To be clear, the pup has been crate trained, knows how to sit, lay down, and stay. Come is a bit hit and miss still. What I'm really looking for is someone who knows what they are doing to lay the foundation for hunting with him. I understand that it won't be flipping a switch. He will need maintenance and I will need to learn how to handle him properly too.

You have given me some things to think about. Thanks.

SS

I know you guys are gonna flame me for this but to me getting someone else to train your dog is like asking someone to take you wife's virginity.

It is and should be a very intimate relationship and I want to be involved at all times.

+1 Everything Uglydog2 said.

I grew up training Golden Retrievers. My parents were very active in both the local club as well as the Golden Retriever Club of America. I spent my childhood throwing bumpers and being a bird boy as well as showing, training, and laying tracks.

When dealing with a novice as yourself, training dogs is 50% dog training and 50% people training. It's important for you to be involved.

One important note, while your trying to get this figured out, it's important for you to spend at least 10 minutes everyday with the dog on a lead working on basic obedience training now. If you do this now, you'll be way ahead of the game.

Go and watch a field trial sometime, so you can see what goes on too.

Im certainly not gonna flame you for that!

And take note of the things you DON'T want somebody doing with your dog......




When i had my one and only bird dog ( a Brittany) I caught hell for the dog not "being steady to wing and shot" and for not having a E-Collar on it...


In the real world of hunting when I shoot a bird I want the dog as close to under it as he can get...personally.


And if you need an E-collar on a dog....you need a different dog and/or a different trainer.

When I was 15, this lady that was good friends of my parents and a member of the club, wanted to pay me to throw bumpers for her one summer. It was a great way for me make money as a 15 year old. She'd call me a couple of times every week to help her train.

The problem I had, was she was into force training. If her dogs acted up or weren't completing a task to meet her satisfaction, she'd beat the living schit out of them. I couldn't stand it.

She had a friend that had Labs. This lady had a dog that, when she'd send the dog, he'd jump up into the air, spin around, and bark, before it would take off. The dog was a great retriever, but kept getting disqualified or was just not scoring well in field trials because of it. So they had the bright idea of getting a cattle prod.

So here we are in the field, I get the signal to throw, the bird flies and hits the ground, she sends the dog and it did its thing. It was funny as schit the first time I saw it, until she zapped it with the cattle prod. The dog took off and wouldn't come back for a while. I don't blame him. Then they did it about 5 or 6 more times until she put him away because the dog was through with it.

The next day, she called me up to get me to train with her, and I told her I was busy. I got off of the phone and my father asked me what that was about and I told him. He went ballistic on me for turning down work and told me to call her back and go to work. So I did, but hated every minute of it.

The words "animal cruelty" comes to mind.

Yeah...Ive heard a large number of gun dog owners and trainers refer to "burning" the dog with the collar.

If you ever want to see how happy dogs with excellent discipline fetch stuff, tune in to some Schutzhund some time....

This is 9 minutes, but its fun to watch...got stuff besides fetching! Also note if you will none of the trainers/handlers ever even raise their voice...no need to.Particularly watch the skinny little blonde girl, she easily handles big hard dogs, and I've never seen anybody better at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-K2_CqVD-c

Hey Sam,

Best you can do, IMO, is to spend as much time as you can with that dog. Take it everywhere and always let it know how it's expected to behave.

This is easier said than done, I know. Most all of us work, and have obligations. The basic obedience stuff should take maybe a week. Sit, come, heel, down... Do this a few minutes 2wice a day for a week, and you will achieve good results.

You want to be this dogs best buddy, and the source of all that is good. Don't go overboard with punishment. A harsh word, and put the dog up if his antics get to be too much. This gets his attention and works him over better than a beating if you're his buddy.

If the dog has hunting instincts, it will be a breeze to get it hunting for you. Think through how to introduce the dog to water and to gun shots.

Swimming with kids on a hot day at the river...
Nose full of hot bird scent and lots of excitement and fun when you shoot the first blank pistol behind him.

Retrievers pick this stuff up easily, and you will gain from the experience...

That's cool stuff. The whole thing is much more enjoyable when you know the dog is having fun. It makes them much easier to train that way.

I'd like to train the little blonde girl to do some things for me too.

Yeah, she's a cutie and that level of self confidence is ALWAYS sexy!

Take the pup out of his comfort zone where there are distractions. Pups will focus on you more, and your voice. I trained my GSP and he was by far the best bird dog I've ever had.
I used a lot of the same techniques to train my coyote decoy dog, I actually used my GSP to teach him to chase the coyote down and bring them back. I never taught him to try and kill a coyote as that is my job.
Just as in bird hunting, killing the game is your job.
Basic commands are the building blocks to training. That's why you don't need distractions, especially your kids out there. He will want to play with them rather than train.
My GSP would retrieve at night, hold point, whoa broke, always retrieved to my left side, was "leave it" broke too., he was a great hunting dog. Make the training sessions short but productive.

Have fun, if you get frustrated, call it a day.

I totally agree. It is a tool for the lazy and mean spirited. I never used one and my lab was incredible. -tnscouter

Well, someone has to stand-in for the good trainers so it may as well be me. They are out there and have a place. Like the people in the video some-not all for sure-are specialists in what they do. The handlers in that video-if they are the ones who trained the Dogs-have skills that are out of the realm of most individuals when it comes to training. They know the tricks of how a Dogs mind gets it cues. They have brought those Dog to the head of the class. Most of us would fall short in the dedication to do so.

Anyway, is there a place for hunting Dog trainers? Of course. Now should it take a month for basic obedience? Nope. Should it take 2 to get the Dog up and hunting? Depends upon what you are looking for. With a flusher, definitely not. With a pointer probably. The one thing a trainer has the average Dog owner doesn't is Birds. A constant supply of Birds that he can use in a controlled manner to bring the Dog along.This is where the average hunter falls short for it takes Birds to make the Dog. Most certainly you will be ahead of the game if you can get the Dog into them before actual hunting season. Trainers have them, the rest of us mostly do not.

You could have Birds and if you worked your Dog everyday for 2 months it still would only be a novice when he/she hit the field and had to handle wild Birds. Trainers don't turn a pup into top class field Dogs in 2 months and neither will you.

There is also a place for the use of the E Collar used with some common sense. There is also the chance it just may save your Dogs life some day.

Anyway, waiting for all of mine shoots .5 all day crowd to chime in; it should be interesting.