Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Reasonable solution for no-knock warrants:

Via Instapundit.com:

If the police storm in and you -- not being a drug dealer and consequently having no reason to think the police might break into your home -- mistake them for criminal intruders and meet them with a gun, you are at fault. I guess your crime is living in an area where drug dealers could use your porch while you aren't home, or being a too trusting, frail, old woman. Sorry about your luck.

On the other hand, if the police break into your home and they mistake the blue cup, TV remote, the t-shirt you're holding to cover your genitals because they broke in while you were sleeping naked, or the glint off your wristwatch for a gun -- and subsequently shoot you (all of these scenarios have actually happened), well, then no one is to blame. Because, you see, SWAT raids are inherently dangerous and volatile, and it's perfectly understandable how police might mistake an innocent person holding a t-shirt for a violent drug dealer with gun.

Do you see the double standard, here? If the warrant is legit, they are allowed to make mistakes. You aren't.

This discrepancy grows all the more absurd when you consider that they have extensive training, you don't. They have also spent hours preparing for the raid. You were startled from your sleep, and have just seconds to make a life-or-death decision. To top it all off, many times they've just deployed a flashbang grenade that is designed to confuse and disorient you.

What's the solution? It isn't to encourage people to start shooting raiding cops to kill. That kind of talk is foolish, and needs to stop. But it isn't to encourage to people to refrain from defending their homes, either. Both of those suggestions will lead to more people dying -- both police and citizens.

The solution is actually pretty simple: Stop invading people's homes for nonviolent offenses.

SteveNO,

Don't you know? We're just soooo close to winning the war on drugs. Just a little more patience and all the drug abusers will be in prison, all the drug pushers will be in prison, and the plague will end. Don't you know how vitally important it is, at the cost of police and citizen's lives to get those few bags of week or few rocks of crack now! If a few innocents have to die at the hands of the police because the police made a mistake that caused a citizen to react mistakenly its all for the greater good!

Actually, the wars on drugs, crime, and poverty have been very successful. So successful, in fact, that we've had to throw open the borders so's not to run out of poor people, criminals, and drug dealers/users. The economic devastation that would result from millions of cops, prosecutors, judges, and welfare bureaucrats being surplused would be unimaginable.

/somewhat tongue in cheek.

Other then for the convenience of the SWAT team, I see virtually no reason to ever execute a No Knock Warrant.

Frankly, if we could dump the so called War On Drugs, (actually a war on all Americans, criminals and law abiding), you would get about a 50% drop in crime overall.

Sure, but with all of our manufacturing jobs being outsourced, how would the private sector absorb all of the unemployed cops? Starbucks doesn't pay worth beans, and Wal-Mart won't hire full time employees. So then we have all of these highly trained, gun-toting, ex-cops wandering around with too much time on their hands. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. The line between cop and criminal is very thin...

Maybe we could second them to the military! That would solve two problems at once!

Right on Steve, I simply find it BS when good old fashioned police work would have better results. I am beginning to think we are hiring a bunch of pantywaist individuals as cops and they can't do their job without a whole gang behind them and the latest in military hardware & tactics.

If my door was ever kicked I would probably end up a statistic as I will defend me and mine.

The solution is actually pretty simple: Stop invading people's homes for nonviolent offenses
========================================

Couldn't agree with you more. Surrounding a home and then making contact with the occupants for surrender can be efficiently undertaken with little or no bloodshed by the time all said and done. Might save the lives of LE in the process as well.Diong this procedure with the 92 year olds home would have saved such an extraordinary about of resources,lives and days and days of aftermath.

That is HOW we did it in "my day". Worked pretty good too.

Too many times 2 cops could take the guy when he went to check the mail, etc.
Home invasion under color of authority is not a good thing.

Judges issuing the warrant should have higher standards prior to issuing a no-knock warrent, and be held accountable for mistakes.
Bob

I'll bet we all have the same thought and reaction as TLee..the door gets breached, the shooting starts.

I know my mama, my sisters and my brother will not kick my door open.

Anyone else is an enemy.


Besides, instead of a flash bomb, if they just toss in a bottle of Anejo and some limes, and wait a couple of hours, I may be more compliant. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not tactical enough.

SteveNO...............EXCELLENT post , man.

Bravo, .....I say again,....Bravo !

GTC

It'd be a good start, if it were realistic (although I don't see what's wrong with killing predator cops, other than that they're an officially protected species)...but of course if cops where you live already break down doors for suspected non-violent offenses, you're never going to get the genie back in the bottle, because the War On Drugs is too entrenched by now.

Drug dealers like it because it justifies an insane markup on their product. Politicians and judges like it because it brings in lots of bribes and other "campaign contributions" from the drug trade. Police chiefs like it because it gives them an excuse to demand additional funding for increased staffing and cool, sexy weapons and gear. Prosecuting attorneys like it because it's always good for a high-profile case or two around election time. Defense attorneys like it because it's a constant source of clients, some of whom are quite wealthy and need lots of expensive defending for "crimes" that would astound our forefathers.

("Twenty years in prison you're facing? For God's sake, man, what did you do?"

"I sold him a product."

"And what--he didn't pay, so you killed him?

"No--he paid."

"The money was counterfeit, then?"

"No, it was good money."

"Then why did you kill him?"

"I didn't kill him."

"Twenty years for accessory to murder?"

"There wasn't any murder. Nobody killed him. He's still alive."

"So whom did you kill?"

"I didn't kill anybody."

"How can you get twenty years without killing anybody?"

"I told you, I sold him some stuff."

"And what--it poisoned him?"

"No. Nobody killed anybody, nobody's dead, everybody's alive. Nobody's even injured or sick."

"Then what--you sold him a fake product? You're being sent up the river for twenty years for fraud? Or maybe you forced him to buy it against his will?"

"No. I sold him good stuff, he bought it with good money. He knew exactly what he was getting, he enjoyed doing business with me, we had a good long-term relationship."

"So I don't understand: why are you facing a twenty-year prison sentence?"

"Because I sold him the product."

"But voluntary free-market business transactions in which both sides benefit and neither side is dissatisfied can't be illegal!"

"Be that as it may, they are. Extremely illegal. Twenty years in prison illegal."

"How did they get that out of our Constitution?"

"I'm not sure. Actually, I don't think they did: they just sort of declared certain objects and products illegal to possess or to sell. I never heard of the Constitution coming into the picture at all."

"But they can't do that!"

"Sure they can. They're the government. They can do anything they're not physically prevented from doing. Remember George III?"

"Well, okay, yeah, I guess you have a point there. Unfortunate: I had had higher hopes for our Constitution than that.")

As a matter of fact, pretty much everybody loves the War On Drugs except the people whose rights are being violated, and those who have to commit crimes to support a drug habit that's many times more expensive than it would be on a free market: but those two groups have no voice--at least, none that anyone working in government can hear over all the benefits of the War On Drugs.

So the War On Drugs isn't going to end anytime soon, and given that dynamic entries are part and parcel of the War On Drugs, they're not going to end either.

But it's a nice thought.

Even more reasonable: WEAR A UNIFORM!

You see it all the time on the cop shows: a bunch of Don Johnson or Starsky/Hutch wannabes storm into some meth dealer's trailer looking like they've gone out to rake leaves. They're cool, see. They're down with the street people, see. They're looking like drug dealers themselves, see. And watch them get shot at every time they go into the wrong house! Stupid bastards should be wearing a uniform! A UNIFORM!

Chuckle
This has inspired me to get a sign made for each of my doors.

"If you knock on the door or ring the bell I'll be most pleased to let you in, Right after you show me a badge."

Put a senser light up so they can read it.
I've done everything a reasonable, law abiding citizen can do.

This is the hill that I'd be willing to die on.
Jim

Barak says:

"But voluntary free-market business transactions in which both sides benefit and neither side is dissatisfied can't be illegal!"

djmbow says:

Hey Barak, I have this nice three month old infant I want to sell you.

Are you interested?

It "can't be illegal"..............or can it?

In Iowa there is no such thing as a "no knock" warrant. Maybe with a federal warant but not a State. We've learned to do it and give a reasonable time to get to the door. It can be done. kwg

You mean an adoption? From at least one point of view, an adoption amounts to buying an infant, usually for at least the price of a nice car.

Well, the only problem I see, is total surrender to the drug dealers. No more standing on corners to pedal your drugs, you do it through the mail slot in your door, and when the police arrive, they will knock and allow you to flush their evidence.

I absolutely understand the problems with breaking down doors, but I am not in agreement with legalizing drugs.


I admit to not having the answers, and I also admit to the problems of the "no knock". Some have made suggestions that might insure who is in the house when LEO arrives, but I'm betting there are many alternative solutions out there that would probably involve excess manpower and money, which is a problem with all depts.

Steve, do you know of any cases where LEO broke down the wrong door, the occupant shoots an officer not realizing, and then is prosecuted? Were any convicted?

"The line between cop and criminal is very thin... "

That's crap.