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I just finished running a new circuit for some ceiling LED shop lights. They're the corded type that just plug into an outlet. I wired in a switched outlet to plug them into. The walls & ceiling are open so at least I was able get to the studs to run the cable through them. It's about 30' from the outlet to the switch. I got it all wired, checked for juice with a test light, plugged them in, and hit the switch. Nothing.
To bypass the tale of my searching for the problem...a volt meter revealed that I was only getting 94v at the outlet. The LED lights won't come on at that voltage. They need 115v. I got 120v by testing from the hot to the ground but not to the neutral. To double check, I used a piece of automotive wire to bypass the neutral from the switch to the outlet and it worked fine. If I was using incandescents, they would have come on but wouldn't have got as bright as they should. Likely flourescents wouldn't have come on either.
This was new 14g wire from an old unused roll of romex. Apparently there's a manufacturing defect somewhere in the neutral wire that cuts the voltage.

I just posted this as a reminder that test lights aren't the universal cure-all. They'll tell you if there's juice there but not how much.


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Good point. I don't even have a test light, just use my multimeter as a check whenever messing with power.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I just finished running a new circuit for some ceiling LED shop lights. They're the corded type that just plug into an outlet. I wired in a switched outlet to plug them into. The walls & ceiling are open so at least I was able get to the studs to run the cable through them. It's about 30' from the outlet to the switch. I got it all wired, checked for juice with a test light, plugged them in, and hit the switch. Nothing.
To bypass the tale of my searching for the problem...a volt meter revealed that I was only getting 94v at the outlet. The LED lights won't come on at that voltage. They need 115v. I got 120v by testing from the hot to the ground but not to the neutral. To double check, I used a piece of automotive wire to bypass the neutral from the switch to the outlet and it worked fine. If I was using incandescents, they would have come on but wouldn't have got as bright as they should. Likely flourescents wouldn't have come on either.
This was new 14g wire from an old unused roll of romex. Apparently there's a manufacturing defect somewhere in the neutral wire that cuts the voltage.

I just posted this as a reminder that test lights aren't the universal cure-all. They'll tell you if there's juice there but not how much.


More likely than a manufacturing defect is damage done while installing... a nail/staple through the neutral wire, for example. The problem needs to be found and replaced. That is the sort of thing that causes fires.

Other possibilities are loose connections, especially if you wire-nutted big bundles of wires, or did not get things right in the outlets and fed power and neutrals through the outlets rather than pigtailing them.


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And manufacturers normally do a test on the wire.


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I hate test lights, it's meters only for this boy.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
More likely than a manufacturing defect is damage done while installing... a nail/staple through the neutral wire, for example. The problem needs to be found and replaced. That is the sort of thing that causes fires.

Other possibilities are loose connections, especially if you wire-nutted big bundles of wires, or did not get things right in the outlets and fed power and neutrals through the outlets rather than pigtailing them.


That would be my guess too as far as the OP's issue being related to the wire failure. I have ran 100's of thousands of feet of commercial and residential wiring and I don't think I can recall ever seeing a manufactures defect in the field. But I am NOT saying that it could never happen....

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I ran into a lot of issues with LED lights and dimmer switches myself. Even the ones that claim to be dimmable.


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Originally Posted by tndrbstr
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
More likely than a manufacturing defect is damage done while installing... a nail/staple through the neutral wire, for example. The problem needs to be found and replaced. That is the sort of thing that causes fires.

Other possibilities are loose connections, especially if you wire-nutted big bundles of wires, or did not get things right in the outlets and fed power and neutrals through the outlets rather than pigtailing them.


That would be my guess too as far as the OP's issue being related to the wire failure. I have ran 100's of thousands of feet of commercial and residential wire and I don't think I can recall ever seeing a manufactures defect in the field. But am NOT saying that it could never happen....


I have pulled a fair bit of Romex, too and like you have never seen a manufacturing defect.


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Quote
More likely than a manufacturing defect is damage done while installing... a nail/staple through the neutral wire, for example. The problem needs to be found and replaced. That is the sort of thing that causes fires.

Other possibilities are loose connections, especially if you wire-nutted big bundles of wires, or did not get things right in the outlets and fed power and neutrals through the outlets rather than pigtailing them.
There are only 2 staples and the wire is loose under them. I hadn't finished the installation yet and hadn't put in all the staples when I tested it. The wire just runs though holes in the studs. At no point are there more than 2 wires in a nut on the neutral wire.
I'll be pulling the entire cable and replacing it today.


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Do you have enough wire to run a test wire beside the original and test throughput? It is very strange to have that problem and not be able to find the issue pretty quickly.


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Do you have enough wire to run a test wire beside the original and test throughput? It is very strange to have that problem and not be able to find the issue pretty quickly.
Already did that. The problem is definitely in the neutral wire. Something is impeding the current flow through it but there are no breaks or dings in the cable.
I'm just going to replace the cable.


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The "blockage" is most likely a leak of some kind; the current is escaping into another source .


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I do a fair amount of phone troubleshooting on construction equipment.
I tell the person on the other end to pitch the light and get a volt meter


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If you've got a voltmeter handy, set it up for ohms and try reading the entire length of suspected bad wire. That will tell you pretty quickly if there is a break in the wire.

I never use a test light to check for power, a multimeter is your best bet, as you've already discovered.


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Speaking of wiring...knob and tube wiring just saved our daughter a lot of grief. She wants to buy a house and she qualifies for a VA loan, being army. She had one she wanted to buy that needs a lot of work. We both thought she was getting in over her head and tried to head her off but you know how kids can be (the kid's over 30). This morning she emailed us the inspection report. The house has some serious problems but best of all, it has knob and tube wiring with lots of exposed connections, bare wires, etc. It even has exposed wire on the oven range circuit in the crawl space. It HAS to be rewired. There's no possible way that the VA or any bank will loan on it. YEAH! She can't buy it and we're very happy about it.


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Do you have a tone generator? If you do, you might consider putting a tone on the white and see if you can locate the problem. I'd love to know what the cause is.


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It sounds like you may have neutral floating because of a phase inbalance.

Go the source with a meter and check phase voltage between hot and ground and hot and neutral. They both should be 120 volts.

Also, in my experience, 96 volts or less can indicate a tripped GFI breaker on the circuit.

Best

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samthedog most likely has hit it. Sounds like you have a Neutral that is not making good contact (the white wire), and the phase imbalance is showing up on that phase (leg). Check your connection at the neutral buss in the panel and at any connections along the way, especially that new switch.

Is the garage separate from the main house and it is served as a sub panel. If so you may have loss the neutral going to the garage and have the issue in the whole building, but this would most likely have shown up with some lights being dim and others bright. If this is the case it will be obvious when you test phase to neutral at the panel per "samthedog's" suggestion.

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Originally Posted by VaHunter
samthedog most likely has hit it. Sounds like you have a Neutral that is not making good contact (the white wire), and the phase imbalance is showing up on that phase (leg). Check your connection at the neutral buss in the panel and at any connections along the way, especially that new switch.

Is the garage separate from the main house and it is served as a sub panel. If so you may have loss the neutral going to the garage and have the issue in the whole building, but this would most likely have shown up with some lights being dim and others bright. If this is the case it will be obvious when you test phase to neutral at the panel per "samthedog's" suggestion.


Very good points and I made the mistake of assuming he had tested the source...


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Originally Posted by samthedog
It sounds like you may have neutral floating because of a phase inbalance.

Go the source with a meter and check phase voltage between hot and ground and hot and neutral. They both should be 120 volts.

Also, in my experience, 96 volts or less can indicate a tripped GFI breaker on the circuit.

Best

Sam the Dog


Yup, the tripped GFCI could be it, too.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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