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Joined: Feb 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
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Recently bought a Sinclair concentricity gauge. Its been eye-opening. I wondered why my 257 Robts Hornady Superformance still shot so crappy in my bedded Montana. They have runout from 0.000 to 0.010. You can see some of the bullets wobble, and it ain't a little bit. So, spent some time this AM sorting cases. I'm doing final load work-ups and picked only those cases with 0.0015 or less runout to use. I checked some of my other loaded handloads and they are fairly straight - most at ~ 0.002 or less. I did come across a couple of 0.005-6 which I think explains a few of my flyers I get. I'm hoping any way. Can't tell you how tired I am of shooting great 3-5 shot groups with 2-4 tight and 1 out an inch or so, making a nice 1.5-1.75" group. All this time I thought it was me Anywho - how do you guys straighten loaded ammo? I know Hornady has a system but I'm looking for the redneck ingenuity method. Thanks. BTW: my Redding dies turn out some really straight cases. I have a couple of RCBS that do but have a couple that may need some investigation as most of the big handful of cases I measured had necks with up to 0.005 runout. Gonna be pretty hard to get bullet concentric when it starts out 0.005 crooked.........
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
For redneck application I had caliber size holes drilled in my wood work bench then I became sophisticated and purchased a TruAngle Tool. http://www.trutool-equipment.com/
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 890 |
^^^^^
Works like a champ. Once you get the dies and technique nailed down that produces concentric rounds, it'll sit in the corner but nice to have (and ready for the next excursion into non-concentric ammo).
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,665
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,665 |
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,115
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,115 |
The TruAngle tool is the best solution I've found, because unlike other bullet-straighteners it bends the case neck and doesn't just push the bullet. Just pushing the bullet results in erratic neck tension, which doesn't help accuracy either.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
John can comment on this since he is the one who alerted me to run out years ago through his writings.
But anyway I started sorting cases and loaded ammo based on .005 or less being acceptable for BG rifles. I understand wanting to get factory or hand loads as close to perfection as possible but discovered that in many hunting rifles groups didn't improve a whole lot if I shot the stuff way under .005.
Maybe target or varmint rifles but for BG sorting .005 and under did a great job of eliminating the funky flyers.
Had a couple of pre 64 M70 30/06's that would simply bug hole with this treatment. I think that run out is the real culprit with a lot of rifles that don't group well.
One question I have is that the True Angle literature says run out is a by product of brass too thin on one side of the neck. I can understand that but can't reconcile fired brass that comes out of a chamber virtually perfect, but has excessive run out after resizing? I always figured sizing and imperfect seating was the culprit?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,828 |
One question I have is that the True Angle literature says run out is a by product of brass too thin on one side of the neck. I can understand that but can't reconcile fired brass that comes out of a chamber virtually perfect, but has excessive run out after resizing? I always figured sizing and imperfect seating was the culprit? The 60K psi of firing form fitted the outside of the brass, where you measure runout, to the inside of the chamber. If the chamber is good then so will be the outside of the brass. (This assumes brass that isn't really bad.) OK, now suppose the cases come out of the chamber reading straight on the outside. Also suppose the conventional size die is perfect, but the brass is thicker/thinner on one side of the neck. On the upstroke of the press ram the outside of the brass is formed to the contour of the die chamber. The outside of the brass is concentric at this time. But the hole inside the neck isn't. On the down stroke the expander, which is assumed perfectly centered in the perfect die, expands the hole and in the process tries to pull it to the center line. Voila, crooked brass.
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Campfire Regular
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Never had the need for a straightener once I added neck turning to the first time prep of new brass. AND the use of Lee Collet dies for neck sizing. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47141769/Runout.jpg (link shows full size) the case on the right as you can see isn't neck turned and has a 0.003 thicker neck on one side. BUT using the Lee Collet keeps the neck concentric even though there's uneven neck thickness. the case on the left has been turned and will result in straight rounds for the rest of their useful life and the reason I include neck turning as one of THE most important steps in first time brass prep! I never turn to a specific size as it's not necessary since no bushings are used (for the collect die). and to the OP, when my concentricity gauge showed up it was the worst day in my handloading career! lol completely ruined my day once I started checking rounds! just my $0.02!
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! (from a 1960's bumper sticker)
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
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Bobin brings up a good point - what is acceptable runout? I've always been of the opinion that anything less than 0.003 measured on the bullet ogive or slightly forward is acceptable. I've never owned a runout gauge but have used them. My basic test was roll a cartridge across glass - if can see wobble its too much. I'd guess that was about 0.005" runout. I tried it today using measurements and I can see runout greater than 0.005 using something very flat. Used my granite counter top this AM.
This is going to open a whole new level of geekery for me............
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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This is going to open a whole new level of geekery for me............
I do love handloading every bit as much as shooting!
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! (from a 1960's bumper sticker)
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,828 |
I wasn't totally joking when I told people at the range I go out there and shoot them so I can go back to the shop and load them again.
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It is an endless circle! Do I load to shoot, or shoot to load! It's never really clear!
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! (from a 1960's bumper sticker)
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It is an endless circle! Do I load to shoot, or shoot to load! It's never really clear! Yes
Support your local Friends of NRA - supporting Youth Shooting Sports for more than 20 years.
Neither guns nor Liberals have a brain.
Whatever you do, Pay it Forward. - Kids are the future of the hunting and shooting world.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
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MM: Thanks for that explanation. Makes sense.
For me the really bad stuff was well over .005,hand loads or factory.
One time i took the 30/06 150 Fusion factory ammo and sorted .005 or smaller,shot some tiny groups and hung them at the LGS. They sold out of 150 Fusions very fast.
As I recall I had only 6-7 culls from a box of 20.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I've measured a lot of factory ammo including federal GM match that was .006 or greater in runout !
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Campfire Regular
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Bobin brings up a good point - what is acceptable runout? I've always been of the opinion that anything less than 0.003 measured on the bullet ogive or slightly forward is acceptable. A shooter @ Camp Perry in the late 50's or early 60's wrote an article which was published in the NRA's Reloading Manual of that era, regarding runout and effect on accuracy. I don't have access to those books at the moment but if memory serves, he determined that .002" runout was the magical dividing line. He also determined that over .0045" runout it didn't get any worse for accuracy. That's part of the reason I don't turn necks (which is what I hate to do most about reloading!) and use brass that has less than .0015" uniformity in the necks.
Used to be bobski, member since '01
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
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The TruAngle tool looks interesting. Can someone explain to me how a you know how to insert the cartridge/which spot to apply pressure to in order to straighten it? Thanks, John
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Use a Sharpie to mark the cartridge on the high side of the wobble.
Stick the front end of the round into the appropriate size hole and bend it so as to push the bullet high side toward the center line.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,865 |
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,036
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,036 |
Bobin brings up a good point - what is acceptable runout? I've always been of the opinion that anything less than 0.003 measured on the bullet ogive or slightly forward is acceptable. A shooter @ Camp Perry in the late 50's or early 60's wrote an article which was published in the NRA's Reloading Manual of that era, regarding runout and effect on accuracy. I don't have access to those books at the moment but if memory serves, he determined that .002" runout was the magical dividing line. He also determined that over .0045" runout it didn't get any worse for accuracy. That's part of the reason I don't turn necks (which is what I hate to do most about reloading!) and use brass that has less than .0015" uniformity in the necks. Rifle magazine also did a write-up on concentricity and the affect it has on accuracy. I have one of these concentricity tools (Brown Precision little wiggler) that reads run-out and also corrects for it as well. I've noticed that straightened ammo shoots much better than ammo that has more than .004" TIR: Brown precision little wiggler. Rifle magazine article on concentricity..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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