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I am not Kuteny but:

I agree about the need to carry a little bit more to save time/energy and in case of injury. A bivy bag/pad and sleeping bag isn't to hard to carry and

Really great book is Handbok Ovrelevned,,this is a Swedish Army handbook and is in Swedish but with such great pictures that it is still very worthwhile. The author is a friend of Kochanskis and has directions to make the Kochanksi/Roycroft snow-ski and packboard.

Arctic Manual (1944) byVilhjalmur Stefannson was a survival work contracted by the US Air Corp and is very detailed by one of the premier explorers of this century. Pretty good reading.

THAT is a book that I REALLY want, but, I have never seen a copy, would you please post any info. you have on it?

Steffanson was a Canadian, brought up in the northern U.S. and that book is famous among serious bushwhackers; I would love to read it and he was the REAL DEAL!

I got mine through Amazon.Com. It was withdrawn from circulation from the Rockford Public Library system and was sold at a decent price by a second hand book seller associated with Amazon. It often goes for upwards of 200.00 (US)

556 pages in 14 chapters

Chapter 1 History
Chapter 2 Physical Geography
Chapter 3 Climate and Weather
Chapter 4 Light in Polar Regions
Chapter 5 Animal Life
Chapter 6 Vegetation
Chapter 7 Shelter heat and light
Chapter 8 Food and Drink
Chapter 9 Clothing and Personal Equipment
Chapter 10 Health Accident and Disease
Chapter 11 Travel
Chapter 12 Transportation
Chapter 13 Hunting and Fishing
Chapter 14 Mechanized Transport

Much of the gear info is dated and it isn't a how to manual. It definately requires the reader to already have some skills and a clue. Also much more aimed at North of the treeline and Inuit ways. After spending 9 years in Nunavut I can tell you that this is a good distallation of Inuit ways of living.

Space blankets are the invention of the devil and I am convinced get inexperienced people killed...

Folks think that they can wrap themselves in one and "stay warm"...The reality is that they encourage people to lie down but the larger surface area now in contact with the ground results in more loss of body heat through conduction..

You see the cute pictures of space blankets being strung up as a tarp with a happy camper sitting underneath in front of his fire...this is fine and dandy until you get even a moderate wind and the thing ends up in shreds...

When used like a shawl, its not particularly effective at keeping the wind or the rain out and its then a constant battle to keep it tight to the body...

IMHO, a space blanket works in reasonable conditions, ie when you don't really need it.
However when the weather sets in, its raining and blowing a gale and I'm immoblised with a broken ankle, the last thing I would rely on is a space blanket..

A plastic bivvy sack is a far better idea..get one of the silvered ones as shown above if you like, but it needs to be a sack...

The trick is knowing how to use it...Don't get into it like a sleeping bag...tear a small hole in the bottom corner and then pull the whole thing over your head untill its down to your toes and then sit down...adjust the thing so that little tear is opposite your mouth for air circulation...

If your smart, you'll have used what ever is handy as insulation between your butt and what ever your sitting on...if you have a pack, open it up and put your feet in for extra warmth...

With this set up, you have mimiumal contact with surfaces to conduct body heat away, you are in a virtually windproof and waterproof environment and there is little chance of the wind being able to destroy it...

If you have a metal mug or a mess tin and the bag is roomy enough, you can actually light a candle in there...make sure that small hole is open for ventilation though...

You won't exactly be comfortable, but this bare bones set will resist the worst rain and wind...My only concern would be setting up in bear country but i guess you have to assess which is the most likely killer, hypothermia or the chance a bear will attack you?

I would also add that this is not a repacement for carrying a proper sleeping bag and other survival equipement, but a last ditch method of surviving if the temps don't drop too low...

Lest I come off as a know it all...after my first stint of five years in the Arctic I went to University in Ottawa for a year. I went deer hunting with a local friend in the Gatineu Hills. It was a damp cold as they say and I was sitting still for a long time with inadequate clothing. I was too proud to admit to being cold so I toughed it out. That night at the cabin I couldn't stop my teeth from chattering as I warmed up by the heater...nearly out of it.

My buddy had a good laugh at my expense at the great Northern caribou hunter who was clearly hypothermic on a little farmland hunt. Pride will get you every time!!!

North61,

It somtimes happens that way! The closest I've been to serious hypothermia was on a coach trip around Scotland as a kid...The fuel in the coach waxed up while we were up in the mountains. As the snowplough could'nt get by us, the lane then became blocked with snow drifts and they could not get another coach up there to rescue us...

I've been in worse conditions since, but i generally I have always been prepared.

The stuff you are talking about is what i would term out and out Bushcraft...For me its interesting stuff, but not of much practical use in my circumstances...

These days, if I end up in an emergency situation, I am probably going to be immobilised and stuck out in bad weather...I need to be able to get by for probably 48 to 72 hours at most before I figure on being rescued...I assume I won't be able to build a shelter and count it as a bonus if i could build and maintain a fire...

If I was living or traveling in the far North Latitudes either in Canada or say Scandinavia, thats when i think the stuff your talking about would come into its own...

Regards,

Pete

To all of you who responded - a big THANKS.

I was a little hesitant to tell this story because I felt like such an idiot, but we're all human and make mistakes. I've taken some decent shots on this from friends and family, and I deserved it. Luckily for me, everything turned out ok. As an off-trail backpacker myself, I know you backpack hunters are more attuned to self-sufficiency and survival than others, and I've learned a LOT from reading your messages. Thanks again.

A few random thoughts and observations:

- My gun vest has pretty much the same, or similar equipment mentioned in this thread. I carry windproof/waterproof matches, fire starter(s), birthday candles (the "trick" kind you cannot blow out) two compasses (one small, the other a Silva with a Photon LED attached) a GPS unit, FRS radio, extra batteries, flashing strobe light, a Petzl Zipka headlamp, a spare AA flashlight, signal mirror (a blank CD), loud whistle, para cord, Gerber multi tool, Write-in-the Rain paper & pencil, six chem packs, dry socks/long johns, a fleece balaclava, and a nylon poncho. Much of this stuff I keep in a Seal-a-Meal bag which has had all of the air removed and sealed. I carry three Clif bars and my vest holds a very large Camelback for the water supply. I do not carry a stove, but I have every manner of ultra light stoves ranging from alcohol pop cans, to an Esbit wing stove. My Wal-Mart grease pot wouldn�t take up much room and doesn�t weigh much, and bullion/tea/instant coffee/cocoa might be good to have. It would warm up your core as well as provide some mental and emotional well being.

One thing I will be adding to my gear is my 8'x10' ID siltarp, which I use for lightweight backpacking. Three years ago I encountered a horrendous wind & rainstorm in Washington's Cascade mountains and spent the night rolled up in the Siltarp like a burrito. We were above treeline and there was nothing to anchor to, and in any event it would have been impossible in that wind. We simply waited out the storm and retreated back down the mountain when there was enough light to see. I didn't sleep much but I stayed dry.

-Ground insulation: I own several; a Z-Rest, a Therm-a-Rest ultralight 3/4, and some generic blue closed-cell pads. One of these will go into my vest.

-Someone asked "why didn't you wring out your clothes?" Good point, and I don't know why I didn't. Between the back pain, being lost, and the shock from the cold water, I wasn't thinking clearly. Also, I knew my truck was only a half mile or so away (at least at that point) and I thought I could make it there. But your point is well taken.

-Another mentioned one of the lightweight sleeping bags. I do have a 30 degree Marmot Arroyo which I use for summer backpacking. Under two lbs and the size of a loaf of bread. I suppose if I triple-bagged it, it would stay dry. I hunt mostly dry, desert terrain, but my dunking in that creek would render a down bag useless if it got wet.

-Mylar space blankets: not many good recommendations. Point noted. If I do not go for a real bivy then I will use the Siltarp and or possibly the Thermo Light emergency bivy I have mentioned.

-Okanagan � I will look into the idea of the Kite Cloth tarp you�ve mentioned. I live about four blocks from Seattle Fabrics and I�m a semi-regular there 

-North61: thank you for all of the pictures and ideas. Most helpful.

I guess the moral of this story is DO NOT BE COMPLACENT OR LAZY. I hope my telling of this story drives home the lesson. I had most of the survival stuff I needed in my gun vest, yet I left it in the truck before starting off on this quick hunt. Nature is dangerous, whether it�s at 7,000ft or five miles from the nearest farm on flat land. It doesn�t care if you live or die. Again, thanks to all of you who replied.

Cliff
Seattle, WA

I think the other moral is to train before you need to. If you wait until you are drowning to learn to swim it is too late.

This summer got some training, watching and helping make some bivouacs..though I never made my own from start to finish. I was feeling pretty cocky and about to get caught in a big thunderstorm I hurried to make a shelter. Stressed by the time line I made a shelter that was very sturdy, waterproof and not big enough to sit or curl up in or cover my feet, which stuck out in an enormous rain storm. Luckily I had good boots. Felt pretty stupid sitting with my feet out in a sheet of water though.

Remade the shelter 3 times over three days and now I can make an adequate shelter in a stressful situation.

Similar story about fire starting. You need to up the stress so you get efficient.

Realistic training by doing when the stakes aren't super high is important. Raising the standard by adding artificial stress is the next step.

I'm not a big fan of the "space blanket." This said, the contents of a survival kit are influenced by what country you travel. I would pack differently in the high desert than I do in the cold, soggy rainforests of Kute's B.C. I think the Siltarp is a better choice all around. I like material that I can cut up (if necessary) to make other things.

Thanks to all!

I now have a LOT of leads on books to buy (and I can even use the one mentioned above that is is Swedish).

I have bought a few such books already, but 2 of them were a complete waste of time, so I'm very glad to have a new shopping list based on recommendations other than a publishers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

John (in Sweden)

Salish,
re: kite cloth, they also call it Spinnaker Cloth, as I think they make spinnaker sails from it. It is a super light ripstop synthetic, maybe nylon. Mine is orange but the last time I checked, they only had it in white, bummer. I don't think it is coated but the weave is so tight that it sheds water superbly and is virtually airtight. Noisy, crinkly stuff but marvelously light weight and strong. Seattle Fabrics is like a toy store.

You guys are a heck of a lot more prepaired than I ever am and I spend a lot of time in Alaskas' backcountry. Little things I have learned over the years though, keep me from ever not having something to make fire and am usually prepared for the worst with my normal equipment and gear.Thats part of the reason I believe in the best gear money can buy for backpack hunting, it will keep you from leaving things behind because of weight especially when you may need them in a pinch. But some interesting reading here. Cant see myself carrying them survival kits though, normal gear for hunting usually has me covered. I do enjoy that new tv show "I shouldn't be Alive" man some people do some silly stuff. The guys that tried to make a run at Denali's cornice without any of their gear was the worst one I have seen yet, they lost many a extremity as a result.

i have a 1/8" thick closed cell yoga mat that i purchased at shopko... really was looking for a thicker camping mat, but they had none.... bought the yoga mat and love it.... went back to buy more but they sold out.... haven't seen one since, and that was 3 yrs ago.... believe me i looked.....
i use the one i have for camping, canoeing, working on the truck..... everything but yoga..... john w

THere are other closed cell mats similar, all are very light, but also bulky. Suspect other than the ballon issue, non will compact very small and that our thermarest lights are about as compact as it can get. Just need to remember to carry the thermarest everywhere, even on a "day hunt". Especially in the mountains.

Jeff

Personal preference but I have backed away from Thermarest for backpacking. I had the lightest weight Thermarest, and I liked how compact it was/is. But it is much heavier than a closed cell, especially if you cut a thin closed cell pad down to smaller dimensions. I think my Thermarest was advertised at 14 oz. plus sack. My closed cell pads range from an advertised 8 oz. for a 3/4 length half inch, down to probably 5 oz. or less for some thinner ones I have cut down the width and length. Thermarest is also subject to pucture which drastically reduces its insulation ability. Even when inflated, it is not as efficient insulation as closed cell, as I found sleeping on ice and frozen rock one night with it.

It's a personal call but I've gone back to closed cell as warmer and more reliable with slightly more bulk and less weight. I have a 1/4 inch pad that reaches from my shoulders to past my hip bone, and I fold it double inside a large daypack, flat against my back. For comfort, take the big size Thermarest, but we are talking minimal gear for survival here, not the most comfortable, though I use my pad as my normal mattress for minimal weight backpack hunting.

FWIW, my daughter borrowed the Thermarest and it came back full of pin holes. We finally decided that spray mosquito repellent was the culprit, that tiny droplets of DEET had eaten pinprick holes all over the pad.

Have you guys seen the folding closed cell mats? A local Army Surplus place does some German ones which look pretty good. They are designed to fold flat to act as padding in your pack...they seem much easier to handle than the ones which require rolling....

have never used a therma-rest. don't know how small they pack... the yoga mat rolls into a cylinder 5" x 12"... folds to about the size of an average high school text book.....

I've been using a T-Rest 3/4 ultralight in my general backpacking for a few years now without a problem. I do a lot of high lakes fishing from an ultralight raft and I also use the T-Rest as additional floatation in my raft, as well as to keep my back and ass from freezing, so it does double duty. No problems with it and I like the way it packs down. It's too heavy for my intended purposes in this thread, however, so I will go with closed cell. I found an old blue one in the garage and cut it down a bit to take up less space in my hunting pack, but it's still a little too large for me. I also have a Z-Rest "accordian" style 3/4 closed cell pad in my gear and I may decide to try that, maybe even remove a few sections of it so it fits better. I've never slept directly on snow with either of them, but the nylon tent floor is pretty thin, so that's pretty close. I couldn't tell any difference between the insulating properties, but the T-Rest was betterf or my aging back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />