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Just a note to the young an impressionable that might be reading this or any other internet forum to gather reloading recipes...
DONT!!!!
Unless you can check with a pressure tested source for your components. Be especially cautious of the geniuses, here an elsewhere who promote computer predictions as reloading formulas.
If the cartridge yer loadin for does not give you what you want-go to another cartridge that does.
Finally, reloading is fun, but its also a responsibility. If you are gonna make your own ammo, then you have the weight of makin sure its safe.
Neither this, nor any other internet site is gonna help you when your gun goes kaboom, even if it does so using the loads of some of the resident geniuses.
Be safe, be cautious, have fun, an you'll never regret what you've done.

Well said, although I believe you could have left some of the ridicule out of it.
Your statement stands alone on its merit without the sarcasm.

MCS

Mak,

Since your displeasure is clearly aimed at me,

Where exactly did I give reckless reloading advice????

I've been reloading for 29 years, and using Quickload for 5. Have a library of reloading manuals. Have gained insights into QLs accuracy. QL warns of +/- 10% error on pressure calcs. My chrono'd velocities are within 1% accurate in almost all instances.

Obviously, a computer prediction has probability of error. But, I have yet to see a data from a reloading manual be any where near as accurate as QL.

The beauty of QL is that it gives insight into operating pressure. When chrono result are cross-checked against calcs, a fairly accurate picture of operating pressure is realized. Can't do that with a manual either.

I do not, and have not endorsed, recommended, or suggested running the 35 Rem over SAAMI pressure. What you do not seem to grasp, is that I used QL to select optimum powders that meet SAAMI pressure limits at approx 100% case fill.

Working up to any near top-end load is a no-brainer, regardless of cartridge.

Shane;

I very much enjoy reading your post. They are interesting and informative. Don't let the hecklers and half-wits bother you, they only want to stir the pot. They have nothing significant to add so they attack others, too bad but we have to tolerate them. Notice too, that they carefully hide their indentity where as you or I sign our post and show our location.

The rest of us enjoy your post.

Jim

Shane don't sweat the small stuff there are trolls all over

I'm not bothered.

Hard to take anyone too seriously who spouts off on the relative merits of something they have zero experience with.

I'm hoping to hear him elaborate on how one might predict pressure more accurately from a reloading manual, than from Quickload.....

I too found your post to good solid information.

The 35 Remington is a very effective cartridge. I use 180 Grain Nosler Partition bullets designed for the 357 Remington Maximum in my 357 R Max, a 358 Win BLR, a T/C 21" Carbine, am 18" 358 ALPO T/C Carbine, and used to use them in a 24" 336 ( I sold it back to the brothers who appreciated the value of their fathers favorite rifle, which bailed out the brother who hadn't.).

While I won't load to your level for my T/C, I always look for more info on 35's in order to extrapolate more accurately for my 358ALPO.

Given the info I see here I may have to add QL to my wish list.

If I had aimed a post at yourself, I would have done so. We disagree regarding ballistics an the computer. All too often, when pressures creep above the operating value that cartridge was designed for ver odd things can happen, an they can happen without flatteneed primers, extreme case expansion, an a host of other so called "indicators".
I disagree with anyone here or elsewhere that some home brewed method of deciding that such an such loads are safe because they haven't blown up that particular geniuses gun is just darn OK.
As far as your crowd of moronic sycophants are concerned, let them shoot whatever the heck they want.
Going back to your posts, re .35 REM. I have yet to find any recommendation for sensible loads-just a couple tables an a big attitude.
Since you won't say it, somebody else has to- for the young, the impressionable, an anyone wantin to start up reloading...
RELOADING IS POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS
If you wish to encourage others on their path of +P/ above SAAMI levels of pressure you bear the potential responsibility of encouraging this behavior. For that matter, I might yest as well say that there are a couple internet sites that encourage this reckless level of reloadin. I thought, when I joined that this sight didn't suffer from quite so many geniuses.
Look, as far as you an your genius buddies are concerned, go ahead an blow your guns up, go ahead an put yer buddies in the hospital, just don't promote it as a lifestyle.
MAK OUT

Mak,

I'll break it down Barney style, just for you.

1. SAAMI max for the 35 Rem is 39,885 lbs-psi.

2. Go into my posted charts and find where pressure is predicted at 39-40K.

3. Note the powder charge and velocity associated with that pressure.

4. Back off 10% on the powder charge and and work up in .5 grain increments.

5. Measure velocities with a chronograph.

5. If indications of excess pressure appear, stop.

6. If velocity reaches that predicted for 39-40K pressure without indications of excess pressure, stop.

Following these steps will yield optimum velocities at SAAMI approved pressure. This process is commonly known as "load development" among reloaders.



Still hoping to hear your tutorial on estimating pressure via the reloading manual.

MM;
As you already know, the chrony is not a direct method of measuring pressure. My point is that the 'puter can only guesstimate burning rates, an make som statistical differentiations from cartridge to cartridge.
As an aside, there is to my knowledge, no computer driven definitions explaining why, for example, the .308 Win is such an accurate cartridge. In simlar kind of vein, you probably already know that some components ratchet up -or down pressures compared to others-maybe the most famous example here bein the barnes copper bullets.
These so-called reloaders who are determined to be the next casualties of irresponsible practices don't need any help from any of us. They look at a printout, not with the idea of geepers, thats only 100 fps max for all that extra pressure-nope, these geniuses look at it saying-hoo boy, I can soup the heck out of this one an get another 300 fps!!!!
Well, to any drooling, nodding slopehead here who considers me a troll for saying my piece-hey, don't read what I have to say, just go off with your propeller beanie in hand and keep tellin yerself how smart you are.
Now, regarding manuals. Todays manuals are written largely using pressure barrels an p.z. technology. Todays labs are way more advanced than those of even 20yrs ago-piezo-electric-p.z. is far more accurate than c.u.p.
The reason we need accurate pressure with our components is that I know of no fool proof method for the handloader to estimate pressures. Period.
Now, I prefer to cross refernce more than one manual to make sure that I'm not pickin up on a misprint, or somethin the editor missed.
In terms of procedure, your method seems sound, detail oriented, and pragmatic-however, the key to all reload safety is in my opinion all in the "P" word.

Mak, It seems we both operating at safe and prudent pressures.

You put your faith in manuals, and scorn the computer programs. I used manuals for over 20 years. Have a pile of them. Hodgdon's is the only one with any indicators of pressure. Nosler the only one that indicates case fill percentage, and that's with their OAL.

I started using Quickload and it was like someone turning the lights on in a dark room. Using quickload you can select ANY powder, and ANY bullet from ANY bulletmaker. You can measure and refine case volume, bullet seating depth, barrel length, temperature, powder charge to .01 grain, and a host of other stuff. You can work out load info simply impossible to get from a manual.

Using QL is not about hotrodding low-pressure cartridges. It's about having information simply unthinkable in any manual.

As an example, I wanted to load up some low-noise ammo for my .308 Win, using 168gr Nosler BTHP, over Unique, in milsurp brass, to shoot from a 26" bbl Rem 700. No way to get a clue from any manual. Punch the dat into QL, and voila! The lights are on. I even get a predicted muzzle pressure, which relates directly to relative noise. I ended up loading 17 gr Unique, and clocked average velocity at 1980 fps.



A guy can waste untold amounts of time and money trying to develop a load by guessing on different componentry, or use QL and have the 95% solution before going powder/bullet shopping. Been there, done that.

This program was developed by ballistic researchers in Germany, not some nerdy college kid in his boxers, typing while munching Doritos, high as a kite on grass and exstasy. There is no Black Magic, Voodoo, Obia, or Clairevoyance at work. All the normal warnings apply, and are emphasized by the maker. It also includes a very accurate external ballistics program, Quick Target.

There is a free demo you can download and get an inkling of what QL is about at NECOs website.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

Quickload rocks...period.

So far it has been so accurate for me it is fantastic.
Again one should realize that it is a prediction and one should start lower.

MAK:3

Whatever your level of expertise or knowledge you may think you have, your stock just went to junk bonds when you started name calling. And from the argunments you presented I get the distinct impression you need to update your level of knowledge and come into the present century.

As far as you posts are concerned, I won't bother to read them anymore, there is enough garbage produced on the net without reading someone who is obviously very prejudiced, therefore the information presented is obviously biased and without merit.

I've been doing this thing for 50 odd years and I like my manuals AND my computer reloading programs going back to the first Powley cardboard programer up to and including Quick Load and Load from a Disk, AND all the years of experimentation, with an open mind, to the realities and possibilities.

You seem to forgot some of the basic tenents of reloading, namely each rifle, each powder, each bullet, each primer, each case, each seating depth, etc, etc, etc, changes the parameters each time you fire each round. And each reloading manual states this catagorically, which means they are just as fallable as your description of a computer program. You don't have to go back too far in the manuals to see some very problematic loads.

Pressure is very important, but knowing how to handle pressure is more important. Getting a mind fart over a nit pic isn't condusive to the process.

I you want Piezo-electrics you can always go to Mr. Oehler and his very fine chronos, including a complete ballistics labratory program, which I might add, a variation of, is used by many of the name brand reloading component and cartridge producing companies. Where do you think they product their manual information from?

You need to fall back, regroup and do a "pullit" if you want your input to be considered valid. All this bull**** macho, ball busting isn't producing anything except fertilizer and a very poor grade at that. There is entirely too much of that going on, on the net, also. There are times and places to waste everything in sight, but the net isn't one of them.

The list of "Geniuses" as described above would include most of us, but it would include others such as Misters Ackley, Whelen, Hagel, Waters, Jamison, Howell, Sharpe, and every other handlorder who has ever engaged in expermintation.

HMMM, this may need further scruitiny...
I can't recall the name of the program, but going back a few years, it was almost usless when it came to predicting charges of H4227 for the .44 mag.
Perhaps things have advanced recently.
I find that when somebody publishes a manual, they are as a general thing pretty darn sure of their information. I'd suppose that one reason I like manuals is that I don't have to sit in front of this silly screen to peruse the info.
Still, perhaps my dishing of the puter thing was a lil hasty.

Good for you, Mak, on that last post.

I think the first ever that I ever heard of is load from a disc. Never worked that program thogh. Just quickload.

Looking for a little help with a couple of Saddle Ring Carbine Savage 99's. I think they are 1899F, but am not sure. Can anyone shed some light on the SRC. Do they have a barrel band? Did they make them in 99's or without a barrel band. Am trying to figure out a value for these in 32-40 and 25-35 in nice shape with a lot of case color left on the lever and a lot of bluing on receiver and barrel. Wood may have been refinished in the past but nicely done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

jackrose,try this
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Savage

Mak;

I think you are correct in you confidence in the reloading manuals, but computers have their place and used together with the manuals can give us a wealth of information. I have never used computer loading software for actual loading and if I did I would want to verify it with a couple of manuals. Then too, I don't trust manuals completely and always check two or three before loading anything near max. Then start several grains low and carefully work up.

I do think that you are too hard on experimentation. It is certainly NOT for anyone except the masters of the game but it is thru experimenting that we find new and better methods.
We must thank the experimenters for many of our current cartridges and, of course, the firearms that shoot them.

On another thread I ask about +P loads. Most reloading manuals list +P loads for specific firearms so I assume that they are safe in those weapons, and only those weapons. My interest is purely acedemic for I have no intent of actually loading any at present time (no gun of suitable cal.). Yet it is of considerable interest to me to see what other reloaders are doing and I resent being chastized for simply asking.

You have some interesting and informative post. Keep it up!
But don't try to save us from ourselves. (grins)

Jim