Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Will Kim survive the cold wet nights?

DZ,

Well stated.

My condolences to Kim's family.

MtnHtr

"If he had some moxie, he'd be alive today."

Robert Ruark, in "The Old Man and the Boy" recounted tales of his youth and his grandfather. It's possibly one of the best books every written about growing up, hunting and manhood. Among the many things his grandfather taught Ruark is the importance of being a gentleman... perhaps a lost concept in our modern world.

What you, Steve, or anyone else thinks about his "moxie" doesn't mean spit to a man in a pine box. James Kim paid the price for his mistake. And, I daresay, most of us have been afforded substantial "discounts" on our mistakes in the field. I think the proper thing to do is to allow Kim's mistake to be buried with him, and allow his family the memory of a man who died trying to save them... not a fool who died on a fool's errand.

Well said Steve.

A few years back we had a group of Boy Scouts from, I believe the Charlotte, NC area, go on a hiking trip in the mountains (elevations 5500-6000 feet) along the NC/VA border in late November/early December.

A big weather front came thru and the temperatures plummeted from the 50's to 10-15 degrees with subzero windchills in just a few hours. These kids didn't have any winter gear or survival gear and got into big trouble. Thankfully, the Search and Rescue guys from the local Volunteer Fire Department found them within a few hours. The worst injuries were some frayed nerves, sprained ankles and minor frostbite.

During a post-rescue interview, when asked why they didn't have bad weather gear, the Scout Master said he didn't feel it was necessary to bring it along because the weather was so nice in Charlotte (Over 125 miles further south and less than 1,000 feet elevation) when they left.

I loved the response from the leader of the VFD Rescue party when was interviewed (Right After the Scout Leader). He said (paraphrased here) something to the effect that in winter weather these mountains were nobody's friend and it was a shame the kids got into trouble because someone didn't have sense enough to realize it and prepare for it.

HBB

Absolutely. He surely thought that he was doing the right thing and was willing to pay the possible price for it. Every manjack among us has nothing but respect for that.

You are also totally correct about most of us getting substantial discounts on mistakes we've made in the field. Mt friend, I have screwed up so badly, in country much less forgiving than this. Heck, I've made mistakes in Hell's Canyon while guiding elk hunters that should have killed. I remember one harrowing night, at ten below, lost, so very lost, and trying desperately to find our small camp; I remember climbing a hundred-foot cliff in the ice, just to get out of a box canyon that was trying its best to be our eternal tomb. Yeah, I have messed up and it makes me shiver today, just thinking about it. Some day, I'll have to relate the adventure of spending a very cold night on a dead (and very untalkative) bull elk...I have never been so friggin' cold.

Steve=screw-up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Karen and I hunted the south side of Mount St. Helens the year before she blew. We got deep into the snow on a one-lane logging road. Believe it or not, I backed out a full five miles. Actually, that was smart because if I turned around, I would have easily become stuck...even in 4WD. I had a "crick" in my neck for a week <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and learned a great lesson.

I surely wish that James Kim had called a friend, while he had cell service, and announced his intentions to take "the road less travelled." Or, just as good, had the wisdom to turn around when the road got slightly problematic (and called his friend again!!!!).

Hindsight is sooooo much better than foresight.

Like you, I see the loss of a fine young man and a terrible loss to his family. I mourne all of their losses and pray for his soul.

As an aside, Channel 12 (KPTV) ran a snippet on the ten o'clock news. Apparently a Portland lady in a Suburu SUV was in Gold Beach the same day and referred to her in-dash mapping system. The cyber-map, of course, told her to take the very same road as the Kim's, only from West to East. She did, only to watch the road diminish precipticely, and the snow deepen, as she climbed the Coast Range. She eventually backed up "musta been ten miles." When she heard of the Kim's plight, she was shaken to the core.

Smart lady and a lesson eternally learned.

Never, never-ever, be afraid to backtrack. Sometimes it will save your life.

Steve

HS,
You need to engage your brain before you start engaging in a type-by gum whipping. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I can assure you that there is no finer CHRISTIAN GENTLEMAN than Steve Timm.

While I do admire his willingness to try to rectify the situation and pray for the comfort of his family, Facts are Facts. Mr. Kim got himself killed and brought his wife and children to the brink of disaster because of over-reliance on technology and because he was too urbanized to understand how to survive in the tall and uncut.

Despite the smug touchy, feely media portrayal of him as a hero, he was a fool on a fool's errand.

HBB

[quote
Believe it or not, I backed out a full five miles. Steve [/quote]

Geeez, and I thought a mile was long! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

kutenay,

I am not suggesting for one minute any one rely on luck in these situations, just that sometimes we get good breaks and sometimes bad...

In the end, the guy died trying to save his family, and while I agree things could have turned out differently had different decisions been made earlier, he has my respect for laying his life down for them.

Regards,

Peter

I can assure you that my fingers don't start typing nor do my lips start moving until I have thought a bit. Steve's response after my post was thoughtful and considerate. I hope he finds mine equally so.

In my time, I have seen friends, acquaintances and folks I barely knew die in all sorts of ways... some from damn fool mistakes. Some folks learn from the mistakes of others. Some won't learn no matter how much anyone else tries to teach them. If I'm the one in the box, for whatever reason, I hope the fellas in the back row have enough common courtesy to wait until after I'm buried to start telling one another what an idiot I was and how'd they'd do it all differently... unless the fellas were my brothers. Then, I'd expect a few lumps. Family, after all, is family.

We all make mistakes. Maybe we drive a bit too fast, take a few unnecessary chances here or there. To borrow a line from the movie, Unforgiven, "We all got it comin'." Or to put it another way, let he who is among you who that has never made a serious mistake in the woods, let him cast the first stone.

I really doubt I would have stayed with the car a whole week. But I always have sleeping bags and other gear with me. I probably would have went for help too, but I would never have left the road.

How far would he have had to walk back to get to a well-traveled road?

"ONSTAR, how may i help you?"

I never said I hadn't made mistakes in the woods or otherwise. Lord knows I have made my share. All I did was point out the facts concerning the Kim situation. I am also not condoning being insensitive to his family.

However, the facts are the facts and sugar coating them will not change what happened.

HBB

I am glad that Steve reframed his "moxie" comment because I believe him to be a thoughtful and charitable person, and the comment seemed out of character.

The discussion we are engaging in is simultaneously valuable and perilous. I have been involved in wildland firefighting at various point in my career, and post-event debriefings are a critically important part of learning and the development of situational awareness. So we all need to learn lessons from this tragedy, and perhaps his death will prevent one somewhere down the road. But it is perilous because none of us have very many facts about the situation (and I have no doubt that the media has gotten parts of the story significantly wrong; they seem to on every event where I have first hand knowledge) and we would do well not to discredit the man in a callous manner.

In my experience, the easy answers when someone dies as a result of their own judgment are 1) He was my friend; he couldn't have made a mistake, the "system" must have let him down or 2) How could he have been so stupid? The more valuable responses (which sometimes emerge later) are 3) there but for the grace of God (and my limited skills) go I, and 4) God rest his soul and provide solace to his family.

Yeah, I was secretly wondering about that. When we recently bought our new 2006 Duramax (Man, I love it!!!!) it was quite impossible to buy without OnStar. K and I often get into some really rugged places, so I personally would never buy a vehicle without OnStar, anyway.

You simply would not believe where the OnStar cell works (hint: everywhere) and I like the reassurance of the 911 call/GPS stuff.

The Kims were driving a 2005 Saab and OnStar is available on all Saabs. I really find it hard to believe that a cyber-guru, like James Kim, would not embrace having OnStar on his new Saab. Or, possibly he was like some paranoid folks who are convinced that Big Brother would be watching his GPS trace.

Interesting..........

Steve

It doesn't make sense that a computer guru wouldn't have Onstar.

Could be that he was concerned about his privacy or maybe he just wanted to save some money.

HBB

As another aside, are the SAAB cars equipped with AWD? I know that a lot of folks get in trouble in the mountains around here trying to drive too fast on slick roads or going places where the AWD (mostly Subarus)cars don't have enough ground clearance or a 4Wd-Low Range to get them thru.

HBB

WHEELCHAIRBANDIT - "I never go up there without TWO down sleeping bags in the car,an entire box of food,multiple heavy German military coats (nearly as big as a sleeping bag),good boots,a couple guns,a stove,lots of matches,ect.As much gear as that sounds like for a ride,that will all fit behind the seats of my Jeep,and will certainly come in handy if this sort of situation arises."

WCB, that sounds like me!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Except I also carry 120' of 1/2" rope, a single mantle Coleman lantern (the old red one, best Coleman ever made) and a gallon of Coleman fuel, an ax and a 30" bowsaw, plus water, and several rolled up newspapers for firestarting. In addition, I carry two 8'x10' tarps.

I'm kinda paranoic out in the boonies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

As for people learning from the death of Mr. Kim, MOST people will NOT. Most people live in a constant world of denial. "Nothing can happen to me... but... if it does, Big Brother will come along in the nick of time to get me out of trouble."

So, for those of us who know that things can go wrong out in the boonies, we already go prepared. For those who live in denial, well, they'll just continue to become statistics, such as Mr. Kim.

L.W.

The value of staying put and calm

Of course, being alone really changes the dynamic compared to Kim.


Kim's Path

Washougal Chris

I've read that folks peal off outer layers after hypothermia sets in as they start to feel too warm. I thought that might be the case when the news reported he left a pair of pants behind. Such a tragedy for the family.

If I were alone,and stuck out there,I'd likely stay put.I'd have plenty gear,and could use the vacation.

If I were in Kim's position,with a wife,two kids,and hardly any gear?

I'd have spent the inital day (the day they got stuck) gathering everything possible for a fire.Mounds of it.Tell the wife to keep the fire going night and day.Then,at daylight the first morning,I would have walked out on the road-and I wouldn't have gotten off it.

After thinking on this long and hard,I think the amount of time he sat there with little food,and little hope,didn't help him any.Walking out on the road when he was still strong and clear minded,was his best bet.

My dad got stuck in an almost identical situation when I was an infant (I wasn't with him,luckfully).He spent one night,said to hell with it,and walked out 13 miles to the nearest town in the morning.As luck would have it,as soon as he reached town,here came the "search party",driving his car that they pulled out.

WB.

Washougal - I saw this Google map path earlier today and it is chilling.