Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing .22 K Hornet X 2

10-4 Tex, it still sucks to get the boot on something even if you do desperately need it, 3200 at 40 grs sounds like the perfect crow killer.

JB, Thanks for the educated clarification, I have not measured the twist of this rifle, always heard 16 twist, serial number is 116xxx putting it at year model '47 I think.

Yeah, that's the nominal twist for all pre-64 M70 Hornets. Even in '47, however, they were cut-rifling barrels. Both of the primary rifling methods used by factories today, button and hammer-forging, were developed during WWII in order to increase production, but cut-rifling was still used by many sporting-rifle companies for years after the war. (Now, of course, cut-rifling is considered a really special method for custom barrels.)

Have measured twists on older factory barrels that were over an inch different than nominal. None were on pre-'64 M70's, but I went through my big pre-'64 years before becoming zealous about measuring rifling twists.

Many companies still used very slow twists for some cartridges long after the war. Savage finally switched to a 1-10 twist in .250-3000's around 1960, when they revamped the 99, but Winchester still used a 1-14 twist in .250's as late as the 1980's. (I had one for a while.)

And even some people who should know better still believe in the slowest twist possible: in 1999 a gunsmith made me a 7x57 with a 1-11.5" twist, apparently because it was supposedly perfect for 140-grain bullets. It was--for lead-cored 140's, but wouldn't shoot Barnes X 140's, or any other bullet longer than a lead-cored 140 spitzer. Finally I measured the twist and figured it out, because he never told me about the "special" twist. (He did something similar when he built a friend of mine a 6mm Remington with a 1-12 twist barrel.)

That 7x57 is exactly why I measure the twist of EVERY rifle anymore.

Thanks again for the detailed experiences, I will measure the twist on this rifle and report my findings, I do know the little rifles barrel is very accurate for a sporter weight, not being bedded or floated and with a screw running through the stock, although it's backed off several turns.

I never agreed with the slow twist in factory 22-250's or 223's, never could understand why the companies couldn't see the potential of faster twists.

I would have had to eat a box of nails I would have been so mad on the 7X57 build, and I don't blame you for measuring every one either.

Yeah, I was pretty upset!

Still happens today. I bought one of the Lipseys Ruger #1V's in .223, which was supposed to have a 1 in 8" twist. It shot 4-5" groups with 75gr Amax. I checked and measured it at 1 in 9", contacted Ruger and they said yeah it's 9". After the buildup & hooplah for a fast twist I was surprised they'd do the 9".

That said, it's possibly my most accurate #1, so I guess I'll live with it.

DF, 300-MP has a burn rate comparable to H-110 WW-296, a bit slower than lil-gun, if it is indeed much denser allowing you to get more in the Hornet case you may be on to something good.

In my experience with all three powders in the .22 Hornet and K-Hornet, H110/W296 is the fastest burning, Li'l Gun is noticeably slower than 110, and 300 MP is very slightly slower than Li'l Gun--but definitely not as slow as Accurate 1680. That's with 2-3 different lots of each powder.

I don't think 300 MP is much denser than Li'l Gun, but haven't really checked.

Got curious and ran a little test: 300 MP is SLIGHTLY denser than Li'l Gun, or at least that's how my present batches worked out. However, the difference ain't much, about 2%.

As far as burn-rate of various powders in this class, while burn-rate charts usually show H110/W296 as slower than Li'l Gun, all such charts are average approximations. Powders can and do switch burn-rates depending on the application. As an example, while H110 is slightly slower than Li'l Gun in the .44 Magnum, it's considerably faster in the .22 Hornet. Hodgdon's own handloading data for both cartridges shows this.

In Alliant's data for 300 MP the SINGLE rifle cartridge listed is the .22 Hornet. The only load listed is for the 40-grain Hornady V-Max, with 11.7 grains producing 2944 fps in a 24" barrel. I noticed this a couple years ago, and when Li'l Gun disappeared for a while I tried some 300 MP, as I had a couple pounds on hand.

Muzzle velocity was a LOT less than listed in my Ruger No. 1B, despite the 26" barrel, around 2750 fps, which normally means pressure is less. (This is probably due to the rather long throat.) So I did some experimenting.

For years I'd used the commonly listed load of 13.0 grains of Li'l Gun with 40-grain bullets in the Ruger. Muzzle velocity ran 2900-3150 fps, depending on the bullet and primer (more on that later). So I used case expansion to check comparative pressures between Li'l Gun and 300 MP, a valid technique as long as the same NEW cases are used for two different loads.

When using same charges of 300 MP and Li'l Gun with 40-grain bullets, case expansion was slightly less with 300 MP loads--and so was velocity. Around 13.5 grains of 300 MP was required to match the velocities of Li'l Gun in the Ruger Hornet, and accuracy was very similar.

At this point I knew 300 MP was a fine substitute for Li'l Gun in the .22 Hornet, and bought an 8-pounder. I chronograph-checked the new lot against the old, and muzzle velocity was within 20 fps.

Have just started experimenting with 300 MP in my new-to-me Brno K-Hornet, but so far it looks like a winner. But one other factor should be noted: A few years ago I ran a primer test in the Ruger .22 Hornet, using the 13.0 load of Li'l Gun with various primers from CCI 500 small-pistol (pistol primers are, of course, a common trick among long-time Hornet handloaders) to several popular small-rifle primers.

The definite winner was the CCI 450 small-rifle magnum primer, both in accuracy and velocity. This may seem odd, but for years the standard Hornet powders were Alliant 2400, IMR4227 and H110, which are relatively easily ignited--and charges are relative small, especially with the old 45-grain roundnose bullet.

In the Hornet, Li'l Gun and 300 MP are slow-burning powders, and like many spherical powders apparently burn better with a little hotter primer. I'm betting that 300 MP, CCI 450's and 40-grain bullets turn out to be a top combination in the K-Hornet, and that's the way things look after initial testing. But I haven't done enough experimenting to settle on a final load yet.

Nope. Not buying any MP 300. No way I can improve on 11.5 grains Lil Gun ( 3050 FPS ) CCI 450, and the 40 grain Hornady V-Max. Shoots way too good. Not even gonna try.

But thanks for that CCI 450 tip a while back.

I may try it in the Bee, maybe the .300 Blackout, too...

That's a lot of good info, JB, many thanks.

DF

Widener's has 300-MP and Power Pro 2000 LR, which I've not see anywhere, wanted to give it a whirl.

I have a can of each headed my way. Already have the primers.

DF

Did you get a measure on the twist rate yet? Just curious....

DF,

Loaded up some Winchester K-Hornet brass with 14.0, 14.2 and 14.5 300 MP, 40-grain Tipped Varmageddons and CCI 450's today. Didn't get to shoot them because of high winds (which are blowing in forest-fire smoke, and no doubt fanning the fires as well) but hope to later this week. The barrel of my Brno is 58cm (@22.8") but 13.5 grains of Li'l Gun gets a little over 3200 fps with the same components. Will report later.

I'm reading M. L. McPherson's Varmint Hunter article, Working With The .22 Hornet.

He has some good stuff to say, even mentions K Hornet advantages, 300-MP and Lil gun powders. He likes Fed 100 pistol primers, has a heading titled, "Never Use Magnum Rifle Primers in the Hornet". He talks about piercing and "blanking", primer material extruding into the firing pin hole.

Well, I have CCI 450's and will definitely use them with 300-MP and Lil gun in these K Hornets.

I wonder if Mic was one of the early proponents of pistol primers in the Hornet, or just grafted his thinking onto existing trends.

Maybe I can duplicate gunner's loads without a drop tube, coercing enough powder into a small case to make the 45 TSX work...

From what I see published, the K Hornet case has around 16 gr. H2O, the Hornet, 14 gr. That's a 14% increase in case capacity if I figured it right, (2 divided by 14).

DF

Using pistol primers in the Hornet has been around for a long time, probably before Mic was born. They weren't supposed to work, according to some companies and "experts," because of piercing and blanking. But then the last Speer Manual (#14 I believe) gave pistol primers the seal of approval, using them for all their Hornet loads.

I've NEVER had any piercing/blanking problem with CCI 450's in any Hornet load, whether the .22 Hornet, .17 Hornet or K-Hornet. For that matter, have never had any problem with small-pistol primers either, but as far as I can recall have only tried CCI 500's.

What I've found, not just with various Hornets but other small centerfires, is different primers can make far more difference than in larger cartridges. This is partly because small rifle (and small pistol) primers vary far more than large rifle primers, both in cup material/thickness and brisance, but the small capacity probably has something to do with it too.

Early last year I measured the H2O capacity of fired Winchester cases from my .22 Hornet and K-Hornet rifles, using 40-grain Tipped Varmageddons seated to 1.79" overall length, and the difference was a 10.66% increase in the K-Hornet--close to what you've heard. Applying the 4-to-1 Rule suggests a 2.66% potential increase in velocity, about 80 fps in a 3000 fps load. Of course that would vary somewhat due to other factors as well.

In my Low Wall Hornet, CCI 500s and Fed GM100Ms give equally good groups with H110 and 40gr VMaxes, but I've standardized on the Feds and use the 500s for handgun loads.

My first try with LiLGun and Rem 7 1/2s was a little disappointing, but I was using a different seater, so I'm not sure the load was the problem. I hope to find some of those 450s for my do-over, but primers are currently a bit scarce around here. Powder selection, OTOH, is the best it's been in years.

30gr Barnes VGs also do very well in my Browning with H110, even though I can't get them seated out nearly as far as the VMaxes, which like your loads are hanging way out there.

I also had my best luck in the standard Hornet with 30 VG's with H110. In fact it's my go-to Hornet powder for bullets lighter than 40 grains.

I don't want to give the impression that primers other than CCI 450's don't work with Li'l Gun. They do, in fact for years I used CCI BR-4's in my Ruger No. 1 because they worked the best of the small-rifle primers I had in stock then. But that was back when BR-4's weren't much more expensive than most other small-rifle primers. But then I ran a more complete test 4 years ago, and found 450's worked slightly better.

Interestingly, the Federal 205M, the primer used by most short-range benchrest shooters, didn't fare well in that test. Accuracy wasn't as good as with CCI BR-4's or 450's, and muzzle velocity was 100 fps slower than any other primer. However, benchrest shooters mostly use extruded powders that are more easily ignited than sphericals.

Not yet mmgravy, about to go out to the reload shop and do just that, I'll report my findings in awhile.

JB, interesting info on the powders having differing burn rates from on case to the next, I mean, slower burning in a 44 mag, but faster burning in a 22 hornet, I love this place, I would have never put that possibility together.

Oh, and I'm in the CCI-450 primer camp too, for all things 22 Hornet.