Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Room For Differences?

This week's paper had some rancher rantin' on 'bout liberals an' democrats an' how they was as bad as Al Queda and really the enemy of all true americans. Now this struck me as bein' absurd, but proabably an' honest assessment of how many folks feel. Bein' a student of history, I got to thinkin' 'bout what this idear really means if true. First of all, based on the way folks voted last presidential election, doesn't it mean that more than half of Americans are our enemies? Remember, ol' Al Gore won the popular vote. Second, I got to thinkin' 'bout all the things thet were innovated by "liberals" over the course of history, an' now embraced by conservatives. The Civil Rights Act, The Clean Air and Water Acts, The Social Security Act to name a few. My point is that who knows what history will say about an' issue? We need liberals and democrats, because without them, we'd be one hypocritical, stagnant society. So yall need to keep yer perspective when trashin' people. They ain't the enemy afterall. I'm a feller thet looks at the issue at hand, not who's votin' for or agin it, or who's tellin' me which way to vote. I guess you could say I'm pro-wolf reinterduction, but anti-growth. I support conservation easements (even with taxpayer dollars), but want a balanced budget. I hate a welfare society, but support equal opportunity. I don't like US interference around the world, but support a strong military. I'm bettin' even the staunchest conservative on this board would be labeled a flamin' liberal in the eyes of those from 50 years ago.

Go back and study your history some more, Nixon was President when the Clean Air(1970) and Clean Water(1972) Acts were passed.

I would not call Nixon anything,but a politian,neither concervative or liberal.

The way things are now days they are all carpetbaggers. Each to feather his own nest in the way of retirement and voting raises of their own salary not to mention the under the table transactions, and there are many. Look at Clintion, he and his wife will live off the taxpayer for the rest of their life for free. Wish I could find a job with a four or eight year lifetime retiremant complete with bodyguards. -- no

I wouldn't contribute any president to any peice of legislation. About all he has to do with it is to veto it if he didn't like it and then congress can over ride it with enough votes. Johnson cerianly wasn't the cause of the Vietnam war, Carter and Clinton didn't do much, Regan was not directly responsible for the economy.
<br>The only thing I know is that most, not all democrats, are out to ban firearm owneship in the US . That's how I vote. Without the 2nd amendment, we won't have the the others. I just can't get it down my craw of accepting Fienstien, Schumer, Roise, Striesand and the likes as just having differnt views. Mostly of what you say, Muleskinner, makes sense about this, but these type of people are our enemy. Ignore it and in ten years, you won't be able to own a firearm or hunt

In the conservative scheme of things, there IS room for differences. Conservatives believe people should be the ones who decide how they want to live their lives.
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<br>In liberalism, there is no room for differences. The liberals want everyone to do things their way with themselves in charge.
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<br>Blaine

Thet's right. He also instituted the EPA. But he was clearly affected by the tide of liberal thought that existed towards the end of the Viet Nam War. Do you really think that man had an genuine altruistic bone in his body? He was an' opportunist. The consumate politician. I did like his defacto use of a line item veto by rescinding program fundin' thru executive order. Was sorry to see Congress close thet loop hole up.
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<br>But this ain't about presidents. But thet jus' shows how limited people are when it comes to seein' shades of gray instead of jus' black an' white. We attribute everthin' to the president, when he's jus' a reflection of the interests thet put him in power, and then the ones thet will keep him there.
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<br>You know I didn't vote fer Jimmy Carter. I voted fer John Anderson (remember everybody's choice fer the mos' qualified but least likely winner?). But I wish I did vote fer ol' JC. He did some great things fer hunters in this country, an' he was clearly one of the mos' dedicated an' honest men we have had in the job. Anymore, can you hope fer anythin' else in a career politician?

Jimmy Carter??? You mean you would've voted for double digit interest rates, giving away the Panama Canal. a disastrous foreign policy, and the deposing of the deposing of the Shah of Iran? (All of these things are traceable DIRECTLY to Carter and his administration)
<br> If Americans need to remember anything about politics, it's this: We HOLD the leash, politicians are ON the leash. As for being my enemy, when the 9th Circuit Court initiated hostilities by attempting to eliminate my right to self defense, they became my enemy.

You cain't trace anythin' to one man, particularly the president. By yer reasonin', Regan was responsible for quadrupling the national debt an' the worst recession since the 30s, an' Clinton was a economic genious. At this point, I'd jus' as soon have an honest man an' let the chips fall where they may. Too much money makin' things happen an' you will never know who's really pushin' the buttons. Sorry to say, but democracy is a ruse. Jus' like with healthcare an' justice, you buy yer democracy these days. And in case you didn't notice, there wasn't a lot of differnce atwixt the Shah an' Saddam. We propped up both, one fell on the disfavor of his people, one ain't let thet happen yet.

Neal Boortz's Idea of the Democratic Plan for the US
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<br>Mule..You are obviously a well educated individual so you have to know that there is an element in this country that hates everything the US stands for..individual freedom, capitalism, individual responsibility, etc...
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<br>The Liberals, and I count most of the Democrats as Liberals, think if you oppose any form of legislation that is ridiculously stringent, for example Clinton's executive order on Arsenic in drinking water, then you are for pouring chemical waste all over the countryside and killing all forms of life with pollution.
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<br>They use the media, who is their mouthpiece, to try and scare old people EVERY election over social security issues..
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<br>Every time the conservatives try to protect the individual the media castigates them as tyrants...
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<br>The Libs worst enemy is a successful white anglo saxon protestant business man..They hate high achievers because the only way they get by is by voting for their successes they could not go out and earn a living they want to take it away with the full force of the government.
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<br>What is worse is the Libs don't care as much for people as the conservatives do, they only want to control all of the money we make in order to buy the votes they need to stay in power!! They act like healthcare and prescription drug coverage is a wonderful thing...they want to be the great provider..well we gave you free medicine now remember who to vote for at election time..kinda like unions! Who is going to pay for it? It will ruin this country financially..
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<br>Mule I suggest you read a book called "Atlas Shrugged" Once the Govt is taking everything people will quit producing..it's communism...We are getting closer every day...Progressive income tax, steps toward socialized medicine, campaign finance reform legislation that makes it illegal for anybody but the liberal newspapers to comment on candidates 30 days prior to an election..
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<br>I consider all Liberals and most Democrats my devout enemies and will not change..Now I feel they have the right to say what they want to as protected in the Constitution. But I don't have to go have a group hug with them!!
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<br>Mike

I ain't agreein'. Yer countrymen ain't yer enemy. I defended their right to believe what they want. Did I defend my enemy? Its pluralism thet made this country the economic giant it is. Idears don't define the individual, its his character an' integrity to those idears. So tell me, when Strom Thurman an' Ronald Reagan changed from bein' democrats to republicans, did they instantly become yer comrads an' stop bein' the enemy? I'd gut thet Osama feller soon as look at him. There ain't a whole lot of people I'd do thet to 'thout them tryin' to harm me an' mine (outside Ohio anyhoo).

mule
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<br>I think parties change in ways people don't...There are a lot of people in the South who have been Democrats all their lives, because it was THE ONLY party after the civil war...Many are as far to the right as you can go!! Many are switching parties also! Our newly elected Gov. in Ga is an example..he was a Senate Majority leader for the Dems..after repeatedly not getting the support of his party he said, "If I'm going to be treated like the Republican's(the minority party) he might as well be one" ..so he switched parties...now he's the first Republican Gov. elected in GA since the civil war..
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<br>Mike

Ready on the Right, If you want to talk about History I can give you all a class in Labor Relations as well as Organized Labor in the USA, but I doubt you would show up everday and learn anything.
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<br>First off Most Democrates are NOT liberals as you stated. So lets clear that up real quick like. Oh yes! they too hunt, shoot, own guns, pay taxes, are members of gun clubs, play golf, and drive fast cars.
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<br>Need One, is the only post I read which tells it like it is so far as our officials go, once people get to that US Congress, they seem to forget about the working man and all and that goes for those in our Armed Forces. Why is our navy losing pilots right and left? There is a shortage of over 2000 pliots right now. Fewer and fewer are making a career out of the Armed Services nowdays. Those college educated and government educated men and women can't afford to earn a living for their family's on the same ratio as those on the outside, doing half the work. Mostly because politicians feel they don't need to live as good as the rest on the outside of the government bases. Their own agenda is the only thing that matters (Giving themselves a big fat pay raise) and if they don't have a couple million dollars or more in their saving account by the time they reached Congress, you can bet the barn that they will have when they leave office.
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<br>I don't mind gun checks and believe that folks should be checked damn close to keep certain fire arms out of the hands of those that are known criminals and those with known mental illness. I am a member of the NRA and a gunclub or two also. Now who on earth needs a 50 caliber machine gun to shoot on the weekend? If you want to do that kind of shooting go join the US ARMY or US MARINES that's the way I feel about those guns. I don't believe we need FULLY AUTO rifles ( AK47 etc.) for deer hunting either..........If that makes me a LIBERAL then I am sticking to my words and won't cow down to some idiot that thinks taking a 30 round loaded clip in his rifle, into the woods for the purpose of hunting whitetail deer, is real GI JOE want ta bee satisfaction. Those that do, need to face reality and the sign up on the dotted line.......I know that D. I. Drill instructor will show those persons wanting to hunt deer, what the rifles intended purpose was in the first place.
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<br>The only thing that should elect a person to office is the POPULAR VOTE, the voice of the people, not manipulating politicians and their loop holes in our government.
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<br>The other thing that is thrown out there a lot is union people and unions as a whole, are run by gangsters. I think to many of you have watched the movie "HOFFA" one to many times. Hoffa gave into organized crime! That was wrong yes. However that is NOT ALL UNIONS across this country today. The movei itself still didn't take away, what was happening to honest truckers and their rigs during that time. The rich companies were getting richer at the expense of the working trucker and his rig. They just all wanted to make a living with their rigs and feed their families too, by being able to EARN AN HONEST WAGE. Which in fact is why so many non-union shops today, even begin to pay the amount of wage to their work force today. If unions were non existant, those none union workers would be making the same kind of wages made, back before their was such a thing as Collective Bargaining in Labor.
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<br>Give me a break for crying out lound. Dig into Labor history and see how it all came about, when young kids 6 years old were in fact forced to work in the cool mines across this country. They didn't get to go to school back then, they had to help the family make ends meet. The companies set the word out "Get your kid into the mine" so you can pay your "Company Store" bill. The whole family had to work in the mines just to make ends meet and pay the bills back to the cool company. Now for you folks that are old enough to remember the song song by the late great Tennesee Ford "16 Tons" it somewhat mentions these same facts. "I owe my soul to the Company Store"
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<br>I will admit that organized crime did in fact infiltrate some of the unions, but for the most part, it was broken up and done away with in the Teamster's Organization some years ago, after Mr. Hoffa meet his downfall and was sent to jail for his wrong doing. The new mark these days for organized crime, which has gotten a very big foothold on this country we live in today (all in the name of entertainment) is the Gambling Casino's. Politicians are paid off........making it a cake walk for such casino's to move right on in and milk the town and country side of its people and their fixed pensions etc. Turning more and more folks into gambling addicts.
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<br>I have voted both Democrate and Republican as well as for a 3rd party person in the last 25 years. I vote for the man, not the party. I have never been one to just jump on anybodys wagon because the guy next door said too. So in short, before some of you spout off about history, I strongly suggest you take a couple of courses and get both sides of the real story and honest facts before throwing out one sided inuendo's. Now for those that are so Patriotic I just want to remind you that yesterday was DEC 7! A day that was supposed to live on in infamy........How soon folks forget. I have looked at several gun forums, but not so much as a mention of December 7th and Pearl Harbor. Thank you veterans for your sacrifice and God Bless YOU All.

The Shah may have been a despot, but he was our despot. The reason he fell was because Carter broke the agreement in which we paid Khomeini a million a year to stay in France (which was a whole lot cheaper and easier to deal with than what we ended up doing). When the Ayatollah took over, we had the Iran hostage crisis, the debacle at Desert One, and acts of terrorism against the US ever since.
<br>Democracy isn't a ruse, it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for dinner.
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<br>Chigger; as for owning a .50 caliber machinegun, as long as I don't use it to commit a crime, what business is it iof anyone's what and how many I own?

Chigger, you need to learn, despite all your history knowledge that the 2nd ammendment is not about your right to huntor with what firearm.
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<br>I too grew up in the coal mines and know what it's like, especialy the union bosses living high on the hog while the miners ate surplus food, me among them. Things like canned meat and powdered eggs and wormy flour.
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<br> I have and shoot militray firearms. Mostly for competition, but if anything like the Watts riots occur around here I want to be able to defend and protect my family. I don't have one, but if I want, it's my right to own a 50BMG.
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<br> All the anti gun laws on the books have not made a single dent in crime. As for having a background check on firearm purchases, they snuck that in with the clause that records would not be kept. They would be destroyed immediately. You saw how Reno got around that and now they have a record of every purchase made in the U.S. Now how do you think they are going to use that in the future?
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<br>Check into it. The people at Waco had not broken any laws, The feds just didn't like them having an arsenal. What would you think if they showed up on you doorstep. Same as with the Weavers. If they would have let them go about thier business, there would not have been an incident. They could have taken the leader at any time when he went to town.
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<br>Background checks haven't kept firearms from criminals and looneys
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<br>You say you vote for the man, not the party. That man will not get anywhere without the party backing. If he doesn't tow the line he's out. I agreee with N.O., I don't have much use for any of them. But when Ashcroft stands up and says the 2nd amendment applies to the individual, I'll back him up.
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<br>They can change thier stripes at any time, but the system is a heck of a lot better than what is in China, Great Britian, anywhere in Europe.
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<br>If you think the Democrats are not against gun control , look at the results of the last presidential election, and I don't mean just for Bush. Even today, they are keeping thier agenda a lot closer to themselves, but make no mistake, they still have the agenda of abolishing all firearm ownership.
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<br>As for ther being democrat hunters. Sure there are, but I bet a lot of them don't belong to the NRA, and have no concept of what the 2nd amendment is all about. I remember Pearl Harbor, Korean war and Vietnam. I also remember what those guys died for
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<br>Muleskinner. You are the last person I would have thought to start a debate on polotics, although this has gotten some off track from your original statement

'Skinner,
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<br>Not only are liberals and Democrats our enemy but they are their own enemy as well. Short-sighted ignorant people who can't let go of the tit.
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<br>Liberal thinking makes America and Americans weaker. People need to pay for the bad decisions they make. That way they'll learn to make better decisions. If the government wipes their noses and picks them up everytime they do something stupid it will become a way of life.
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<br>It is scary that nearly 50% of our people think self-destructive thoughts and espouse weak-kneed philosophy.
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<br>Our people have the right to think as they want. It is unfortunate that many think thoughts that will be the end of our country.

Saddlesore,
<br>When stuck inside, I can git to thinkin' onct in a while jus' like them fancy pants fellers. Like Chigger, I don't see how nuthin' BUT the popular vote can be considered democracy. Even ifn I don't like the feller what gits in. Propen up tyrants is wrong, even if it is in our interest in the short term. Over the long term, less hypocrisy would be a wise policy.
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<br>Beyond all the self-servin' an' bread-butterin' actions people do in the name of politics, the fundamental tenets of our land are still worth fightin' fer. Thet seems to git lost nowadays cause people are lookin' fer what's in everthin' fer them. I feel sorry fer folks what don't see the good in most their coutrymen cause they're too wrapped up in their own lives. But, I reckin' thet's the American way too. An' "democrat" an' "liberal" ain't the same thing. Ifn you believe thet, it either shows you've swallered a pile of horse [bleep] served up by a politician or two, or you ain't really knowed enuff democrats to speak intelligent 'bout the matter. You cain't describe people in one word. People (mos' anyhoo) are more complicated then thet.
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<br>Well now my haid hurts so I'm goin' to visit my buddy Jim an' load some ammo. Yall keep this goin' now.

No, for the most part I don't consider Dems the enemy. There are a few exceptions. Jimmy Carter is a decent man, but he's also the worst possible person to be president, the "why can't we all get along" crap doesn't cut it in the real world. It's real tough to be a issue voter except on a local level. I vote a straight Republican ticket. I may not like the candidate personally, but he'll vote more along the lines as I would then any Lib ever will, so I vote a straight ticket.

I'm with 'Skinner on the main issue: I'm not a Republican or Democrat,though I've voted for Republican candidates most times except when Perot ran.Hell,I even voted for George Wallace!
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<br>Just because I believe the 2nd amendment means what it says and government funding of abortions riles me no end don't mean I can't see that an unchecked republican party bodes ill for the working man.Back when we had conservative democrats[ how long since you heard them two words coupled?] I reckon that's what I was.
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<br>Our congressman,Charles Stenholm,stands head and shoulders above some of the republican darlings.What we need is more democrats like Charlie.Look up his record. He even voted to impeach Clinton.
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<br>Al Gore is a farce and but for the grace of God and a constitution,we would have had the bastard as president.I like George W. and would if he was a democrat.Come to think of it,his ideas sound a lot like Connally back when he was a democrat.
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<br>I think George ought to send both parties a message and run for re-election as an independent!

Saddlesore, I guess you just don't see the issue here, so I don't want to start a shouting match or Pissing match as AFP once referred to going at each other.
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<br>You need a 50 cal. to defend your family OK, so what is that going to do against a tank outside your home?
<br>How about you picking up a 3.5 rocket launcher also, cause tanks are real tuff these days to penetrate, while you hide behind the couch in your living room all locked and loaded and ready for war. I don't hardly believe that our forefathers would in fact consider the M-60 machine gun in the "Right To Bare Arms" had they known they were going to be invented to protect your house from riots downtown in LA. Seriously I doubt you have ever fired one or had to carry the buffer housing group up a hill.......it's a two man job sir! I have while in the service of our country and it is not an easy task.
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<br>I am going to send a letter off to a friend of mine and fellow Missourian you just happened to mention. Who while at Boliva Missouri "South West Baptist University" by the way, presented my wife with her last degree. I will ask John just what his legal feelings are, on ALL Americans arming themselves with an M-60 machine gun for self protection and future riot outbreaks.