Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Room For Differences?

Ebd10, Well I guess it all comes down to a thing called interpretation of that word "ARMS" which most in Congress view as shoulder mounted guns......not M-60 machine guns to be fired at will by the owners.
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<br>Now knowing that their are indeed those that have them (through special government permits) and use them and collect them as well, as artifacts of war. I myself see NO NEED for such things in my life or that it necessitates for other's to pocess them other than our ARMED FORCES. Same goes for FULLY AUTO rifles in the woods hunting or mountains either. What is next, some group loby's Congress with a few bucks and they have an armed missle in their backyard. Somebody had to have a little common sense in making those kind of decisions.
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<br>There are many states who in fact won't let hunters use a rifle for hunting deer. Now are all those folks who voted on such a bill, considered LIBERALS & ENEMIES of those that think it is fine to use a rifle in that state?
<br>Because if you answer is YES........All I can say is that there are a heck of a lot of both Republicans and Democrates that thought alike on the matter.
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Chigger,
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<br>Your busy painting the 'ugly hunter' picture when describing 30 round magazines and fully auto weapons being used on the woods.
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<br>That's the ploy of the 'anti's' from what I've seen.
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<br>Just how many M-60's are being used to commit crimes? How many 'fully autos'? Why are you even worried about these types of arms being owned by law abiding citizens? I'm not sure I see your point here.
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<br>We all know that the Second Ammendment had absolutely nothing to do with hunting. Why would you try and restrict it to just that one topic? Are you willing to forsake your fellow shooters, who own guns for self-protection and plain shooting enjoyment?
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<br>Take it from someone else who carried the M60 (two M60D's actually, mounted on the Huey I crewed ) while in the Service...
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<br>I'm not understanding your position at all.
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Actually, if there was EVER one US war that could be contributed to one man, that is the Vietnamese war which is/was/and forever more will be Johnson's. He personally, due to his politics, made all the major decisions, probably including the infamous Gulf of Tonkin "incident", that lead to the whole fiasco and the loss of about 50,000 american lives and the whole cascade of events during and following the war which affect us negatively, even today.
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<br>While I am not an admirer of Nixon's, he was much more of a statesman and visionary than most people give him credit for. While he will always be marred in history by Watergate, his Presidency is already being treated better than most of the modern ones by historians as far as long term benefits go.

i'm kinda with mule on this. that said, i sure get the creeps with a virulently anti gun democratic governor taking office. and i sure get the creeps with a guy like dubya killin the constitution with his homeland security act....... which by the way, is the reason we need to hang on to our weapons....... this is the kind of tyranny that we need to oppose with our lives........
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<br>4 years ago illinois voted in the biggest crook in their historyof crooks. we had the opportunity to elect a conservative democrat who was a constitutional fundamentalist, and believed that the bill of rights guaranteed individual rights. We turned glenn poshard away, and sent george ryan to springfield......
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<br>bill clinton, by the way, was a fundamentally honest man. he told us he intended to do the things he did, politically........ everyone said it was all political talk, and the presidents office doesn't have that much power anyway.

Chigger,
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<br>I had a really sarcastic reply all typed out, in reply to your thoughts on what does militia mean, and who is qualified to posess what kinds of firearms, and what kinds of firearms should and shouldn't be legal to own.
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<br>I scrapped it, because I actually believe in a lot of what you and muleskinner are writing about - be very careful of labels or name calling. Labels tend to get in the way, and name calling can alienate potential allies.
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<br>Instead, I invite you to do some reading, much as you have invited others to read up on labor.
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<br>Find out what the framers of the constitution meant when they drafted the 2nd amendment. These individuals were writing to each other, in the same time period that the constitution was being drafted and ratified, and there is no doubt that what they meant was "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
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<br>Also, do you truly believe that these gentlemen were lacking in imagination? That they couldn't foresee any advances in weapons technology? You don't think that what they truly meant, was that the citizens of this nation should have a fighting chance to defeat the army of a government gone corrupt?
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<br>You also keep talking about hunting. I don't recall anything in the constitution saying "the right to hunt with arms shall not be infringed.
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<br>Look to Switzerland as an example of what widespread ownership of military weapons means to a moral, law abiding society.
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<br>Lastly, if you don't want a .50 BMG or M60 or M16, well fine. That's your choice. But please don't impose your emotion based decision on other law abiding citizens, lest you someday have someone elses emotion based decisions become imposed on you.
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<br>Best regards,
<br>Scott

Oh yeah - one last thing. December 7th, 1941 was my fathers 18th birthday. Damn straight I remember that day, and ALL that it means. He was building aircraft in Baltimore at the start of the war, then wound up busting out of fighter pilot school in Texas. He spent most of the war as an aircraft mechanic on New Guinea. The family spent Friday night celebrating his 79th.
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<br>So there. :P~~~~~
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<br>Scott

Edited to fix a spelling error!
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<br>Chigger
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<br>I did show up and did graduate! All while working full time! thank you..I would probably not believe the liberal spin you would put on your lessons just like I didn't believe all when I was going to school! I used up many of a professors time arguing the BS they were spewing...
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<br>You need to think about what you are typing! It is Legal to own fully automatic weapons in some states for qualified people...it is covered under the game regulations under " legal firearms" that fully automatic weapons aren't allowed for hunting.
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<br>If machine guns and such would have been around when the the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were being written it would not have mattered! They didn't believe in a standing Army, they intended on the people coming together to form the Army as needed!
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<br>Labor unions were needed at one time...then laws were passed concerning child labor, safety in the workplace standards, etc. etc. Now unions are fronts for organized crime and job security programs for the ignorant and inept! Unions are driving the remaining labor intensive lower skill jobs out of this country because they collectively bargain for pay that is much higher than the market will support! We need those jobs here because there will always be people who only strive to achieve those types of jobs..
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<br>Popular Election of President!!!! Are you freaking crazy?? Surely you aren't serious?? For one thing it isn't even in the Constitution that "The People" get to even vote for President..It is the responsibility of the State Senates to determine how to choose Electors, and most of them have decided to allow the people to choose electors by popular vote in that state to decide..If we went to a nationwide popular vote then the President would be elected by the states of New York, Florida, Illinois, and California...That is the only place they would campaign and the only place to get any national attention..The Founding Fathers knew what was going on and they got it right!! I'm still not convinced Gore won the popular vote! They found 150,000 probable illegal (dead) voters in Detroit alone!! If they actually checked nationwide the alleged margin of 500,000 votes would probably be completely dwindled away! How about the Unions telling people how to vote..strong arming them too..
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<br>Most Democrats are Liberals!!! Look at their voting records!! I don't care what they say at home or do in their campaign adds..the record speaks for itself and they are toeing the party line on Liberal issues like Gun Control, Abortion, affirmative action, Taxes, affirmation of Federal judges!! They are/were doing exactly what Daschle and Gephardt are telling them too...
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<br>A prime example is Georgia's own Senator Max Cleland, he was a Conservative Democrat in the GA Gen. Assy. and as Secretary of State...then he got elected to the U.S. Senate and you might as well have painted his face black and called him Jesse Jackson...He was toeing the liberal line!! He has now been defeated because he Does Not represent the will of the People of GA..
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<br>Mike
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And yes I have fired a .50 cal M-2 Browning as well as an M-60 and M-16 A1's and A2's..LAW Rocket..M-203 Grenade Launcher..
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<br>Mike

ROTR,
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<br>Cool, the M2! Never got a whack at one of those...
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It was actually a little scary..
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<br>I was in A Troop, a flight troop so we didn't have any M-2's...But while out at OP-5(Observation Point 5) at Ft. Bragg so our Armed OH-58D's could shoot their .50's and 2.75" FFAR's the Headquarters guys were shooting their ground .50's so naturally we went and begged our way onto the range
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<br>I had just got in position behind one of the guns when the guy on the next point..A gunbunny 68J, hit the trigger on the HQ gun they were letting him fire and the dang feedcover bulged and blew up in the air about 3 feet...The range NCO a SSG from 3/5 Platoon had just allegedly checked the headspace with a GO/NOGO gauge!!!! I guess he had been breathing too much JP-5! I cleared my gun and had him come over and check it again before I fired it!! Luckily nobody got hurt..and they had no other incidents..
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<br>Needless to say that was the last time I shot anybody elses weapons on a range..
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<br>Oh..A burned out tank hull at 600M is a piece of cake..
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<br>Mike

Saddle sore, for the most part I agree with you. I do take exception with your assement of Democrat hunters, my father is a decorated world war two veteran, he served in the pacific and was wounded twice as a gunner in an Avenger torpedo bomber, the same kind of plane George Bush Sr was shot down in. My father has been a life long hunter and member of the NRA and the Democratic county chairman from 1970 to 1974 here in Mason County, Washington State. He was also president of his local union when we lived in Sitka Alaska. My Dad voted for George Bush JR in 2000. He feels the same as me. We did not leave the Democratic party, it left us. Your malinging ww2 vets who served in combat or for that matter any wheres is nothing but pure bullsh%t. My fathers brother was killed in Korea I never met him but I bet he too was a democrat. Most of my family has been democrat since the civil war but now we are cast adrift... but floating towards the rightwing shore of the Republicans we are just waiting to see if that shore moves away again. As far as I can see Mr. MuleSkinner just about got it right as it gets. I can list many things that I dislike about the GOP and well as the Demo's but at present the GOP reflect my views the best and I feel that my oppions and views have changed little in the past 40 years or so. So what does that say about your political parties. Hey is that a fresh breeze are we moving again, is this fence wobbling, how much money is in that donation....
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<br>Bullwnkl.

Chigger;
<br> I understand that liberty is a scary thing. Most people tremble in terror at the thought of "other" people having too much freedom, whether it's driving a gas guzzler, making too much money, ingesting controlled substances within the privacy of their own home, hunting, or owning a machinegun. That's why we have so many laws geared to control people. If you look up the writings of the guys that wrote the Constitution, you'll learn that they intended for the general populace to have access to all of the same infantry weapons that were available to the military. They had just come out of a war in which they saw first hand that a standing military became a tool of oppression. Therefore, they wanted the people in government to be wary and maybe just a little afraid of angering the people.
<br>The Bill of Rights was not put in the Constitution to "grant" anyone anything, it exists as a list of limitations on government power. If you read each amendment, that becomes obvious.
<br>Plus, despite their arrogance, those that we elect to public office aren't our "leaders" they are our "representatives", an important distinction. They have no more right to take away any of our Constitutional or God-given rights than does Saddam Hussein. What needs to happen in this country, is for the people to remember who is in charge.
<br>Mule;
<br> Like it or not, there are people in this country that want to destroy it al in the name of "progress". We are living in an age when the USA is being "Europeanized" in that we should just let the state take care of us and keep our mouths shut. Those at the forefront are liberals in the Democrat Party. If you look at all of the plans and legislation designed to prevent people from accessing public land, owning guns, driving SUV's, and keeping what they earn, you will find that the majority originated within the Democratic Party. It's not about re-introducing wolves or saving the environment, it's all about controlling people so as to make them docile little Multi Use Labor Elements. Those that worship the state could care less about the environment, hunting or anyone's rights. If the statists thought that they could bring everyone into line by killing every deer, elk, bear, moose and antelope in the country, it would get done (heck, it worked on the Indians)
<br>Plus, we have in our own history, an event that took place as a result of some citizens becoming weary of the evils inflicted upon them by other citizens of this country. It's known as the War Between the States.

First let me say, that in no way did I mean to offend anyone that served in the armed forces, in combat,as you say. I went back and re read my post and don't see how anyone could interpret it that way. If so. I apologize.
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<br>However, the democratic party is a far cry from what it was 20 years ago, and certainly 60 years ago.
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<br>As for owning an M-60, I never said I wanted one, only it is my right to own one, if I so chose. And yes I have fired one. In addition, I was involved in most of the designs of weapons used in Vietnam. So I am quite familiar with them from the Daisy cutter, Blu 82, Walleye missle, Coin project, etc. Doesn't mean I want them.
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<br>All this doesn't mean squat though. I can see what Muleskinner is saying, we all have different opinions. That's what makes a horse race.However, it doesn't necessarily make us enemies. But there are some folks in this society that are my enemies. I don't hide behind my couch waiting for war, but it's stupid not to be prepared for something that is all too common place in this world and is likely to come to our shores in this age.
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<br>As for hunters, democats and the NRA. I'm sure a lot of them belong , howevr, it is a known fact that only a small percentage of gun ownes and hunters belong to the NRA. If all belonged. we would never have any worry.

Very True Saddlesore!
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<br>I had the chance to here Wayne Lapierre speak at a fundraiser one time and he said that of the 280 Million people in this country something like 86 million were gun owners and in polls about 26 million said they were affiliated with the NRA! Only about 4-5 million are actually members the rest are riding the coat tails of those of us who pay our dues.
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<br>DON"T QUOTE ME EXACTLY ON THE NUMBERS, BUT THEYARE CLOSE...
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<br>Mike

I am only going to say My feelings on the issue of of the 2nd Amendment have be spoken! My interperatation may differ from yours, so be it.........I stand pat that our forefathers had NO INTENTION of having people, at the time they drafted that 2nd amendment, to have FULLY AUTO two man machine guns or fully automatic rifles, being placed at eveyone's doorstep. How could they when such weapon's weren't even thought of at that time.
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<br>As far as the huntiong issues I brought up are concerned, it has been brought up many times in the past by those in favor of such weapons, pointing out it doesn't hurt or matter to have a AK-47 etc. fully auto weapon hunting deer or what ever they so choose to hunt. I will only say that I prefer to be a sportsman when I hunt and don't need a fully auto weapon such as the AK-47 to do my hunting with in the field. Many conservation people and Congress feel the same way, as we do have a law against such practice. I do believe we have such a law on the books that prohibits the average citizen from owning a fully auto Thompson unless the barrel is plug, however with a special permit one can acquire such a weapon correct. Chastising me won't change the laws I am affraid, but if it so suits you letting your frustrations lose on me, I say have at it folks.
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<br>Now some interesting news for those who lashed back at my Labor thoughts. If you are ever hunting or traveling through a little town in Colorado called
<br>"Fair Play" you might just drop by the local museum there and read up on the mining problems or the time printed in the paper back then, the accounts of miners who's wifes and children were in fact murdered by the Goons of the mining companies. Learn about the conditions of those mines and how those people lived. Thanks to those miner's banning together and not giving up to the threats of big busniess at the time, it helped jump start the movement known as Organized Labor Unions. These things didn't happen over night and much blood shed took place before it became offical.
<br>I know that any of you who venture out that way, will indeed have a very nice visit taking in the sights.
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Chigger;
<br> On the 2nd Amendment; you're wrong.
<br> I agree with you on the hunting issue, but hunting has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. If that were the case, we could all use bows and arrows. You might find Jeffrey Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards" worth reading. Let Congress decide what rights we have? That's how we got into this mess.
<br> As for Labor issues; I grew up in Detroit, where the UAW is king. A source that I trust, told me that up until the early 80's, locked in a safe in the Dearborn Ford plant were 5 Browning Automatic Rifles that Henry Ford bought for his "security" goons to use on striking union workers. Labor relations were as brutal in that paticular era as they were anywhere else.
<br>Nowadays however, the UAW is synonymous with "Mafia". The greed of the union bosses destroyed the American car industry which is why we now have Daimler-Chrysler and Ford-Nissan.
<br>Mule;
<br> Tell me, the men that Chigger referred to that killed the wives and children of the miners in Colorado, they were the countrymen of those miners, were they the miners' enemies? If a man breaks into your house waving Old Glory, singing the national anthem, and waving his birth certificate at you while at the same time kicking your dog, stealing your valuables and killing your family members, are you going to treat him like an enemy? Or like a countryman?
<br>So, if a guy breaks into your house waving a badge, announcing that he's from the government and waving a warrant at you (if he even bothered to get one) while at the same time kicking your dog, "confiscating" your guns, and killing your family members, is he your enemy?
<br> I suspect that the Founders faced many of the same issues.
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Chigger, If you really want to get chilled, look up the Ludlow massacre in southern Colorado, South of Walsenberg.. It's about National Guard troops ( I think, but may be mistaken) went in and slaughterd miners in behalf of the coal company when they were on strike.it was a lot worse than Fairplay.
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<br>My father started in the mines when he was 9 , He made 3 cents a day and my grandfather made 9 cents.
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<br>He worked his way up to driving mine ponies and then was a shooter ( dynamite). He walked out after the third cave in he was trapped in and never went back.

The national park system is also a legacy from liberals, including our mos' famous liberal republican president, Teddy Roosevelt. The clamour from Jackson Hole conservatives was substantial when the GTNP was created. Got all the hot cowboy actors from hollywood to come help in an' illegal cattle drive across the new park in protest. Mos' those cattlemen still 'round today admit they was wrong, but only history can sort out these things truthfully. I'd rather wait then hate, I reckin'.

My only frustrations over this are that if you are a gun owner and member of the NRA you should have been better informed on the Anti's tactics of divide and conquer!
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<br>As far as 100 year old labor disputes go I can only say that it is a tragic part of history that was commonplace have you heard of the Athens, TN uprising after WWII??
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<br>Not possible without the private ownership of arms...
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<br>Mike

Chigger,
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<br>You wrote...
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>I stand pat that our forefathers had NO INTENTION of having people, at the time they drafted that 2nd amendment, to have FULLY AUTO two man machine guns or fully automatic rifles, being placed at eveyone's doorstep. How could they when such weapon's weren't even thought of at that time.
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<br>They didn't have the bolt action rifle either.
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<br>Do you?
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<br>If so, why?
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<br>The forefathers never knew about bolt action rifles, or lever actions, or scopes, or even smokeless powder. Yet we have all those things today.
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<br>When I try to follow your logic, it just doesn't add up. Sorry bud, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.