Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Does a bullet go fairly straight thru tall grass or deflect?

I don't recall if it's a "long bullet' thing or not; I think is construction related.

Like Casey I can't recall where I read about the deflection test. ...but it involved a bunch of rifles and calibers including ML's, shotgun slugs,CF rifles of various calibers,etc.

The clear winner and by a "long shot" was the 375 H&H with 300 gr bullets started at 2600+ fps. I do not recall "which" 300 gr bullet. It made the stuff like slugs and ML conicals, and slow twist 45-70 stuff look pretty bad.

I remember thinking it more evidence that velocity and twist are helpful in avoiding deflection through some debris (although not infallible),and also in game animals....assuming of course that the bullet has the structural integrity for the job in the first place.

Wish I could remember where I read it.

I've read several of those tests and the "clear winner" isn't always the same.

Haha! John you're likely right!

It's all a prayer,which we all know. Nothing is infallible.

Bob,

One of the many "in the field" examples I've witnessed was a 250-grain Nosler Partition from a .338 Winchester Magnum, muzzle velocity around 2650 fps--which is reasonably similar to a 300-grain .375 H&H bullet.

It happened in Namibia, where Ingwe and my wife and I had booked a 10-day hunting safari, followed by 3-4 days of touring. One of my objectives was an eland, and on the second day Ingwe accompanied me and the PH when we went looking for one. (Can't remember why Ingwe came along, but he was there. Eileen was off hunting with another PH.)

Anyway, we ran into a few bulls by a waterhole early in the morning. They spooked, as eland will, as the safari car passed by maybe half a mile away. We got out and followed their tracks, soon seeing them trotting away steadily. The PH and I continued to follow them, alternately jogging and then stopping when we got close enough to see their butts still trotting away.

After a couple miles of this their tracks showed they'd quit trotting and were now walking. This was unusual, but we slowed down enough for Ingwe to catch up, and eventually came around some brush to see the bulls feeding about 200 yards to our right. One bull was out in the open, broadside--but with a single tiny thornbranch, not much thicker than a tall grass stalk, right in front of the sticking place behind the shoulder.

I couldn't have hit the branch with a box of ammo, so aimed and fired. A splash of dust erupted from the eland's side, right where I'd aimed, and the herd immediately disappeared into the surrounding brush. The PH turned and shook my hand, congratulating me on the good shot, saying, "He's dead, but we'll wait a couple minutes before following."

When we did, in about 150 yards we came upon the bull--standing up, but with his head held a little low. I shot again, quickly, and the bull dropped dead.

We discovered the first bullet HAD hit the tiny thornbranch, and turned sideways before it hit the bull, cutting a perfect silhouette of a 250-grain Partition in the hide. The branch had been so close to the bull that there was also a foot-wide "halo" of little swirls in the short hair, where the branch's thorns had slapped against the hide.

The second bullet penetrated completely, but I wish we'd found the first. It was somewhere inside the massive chest cavity, and somehow escaped some pretty through digging--and the skinners were also soon busy with the gemsbok my wife had killed, and then the kudu she got that afternoon. So there was plenty to do, with around 2500 pounds of African animals in the shed.

Anyway, that was a pretty sizable bullet to be turned completely sideways within a few inches by a tiny twig. And according to what's considered the most accurate rifling-twist formula available, even a 250 Partition is "way over-stabilized" by the standard 1-10 .338 twist. Have seen quite a few other bullets deflected, but that one pretty much convinced me there's no certainty in trying to put even a fairly large, well-stabilized bullet through minimal grass and brush.

Waited on Ingwe!

John,

To cut to the chase, what you are really saying here, is that it was the Poobah's fault, right ?

Well, "stuff" has been known to happen when he's around. Just sayin'....

this reminds me of a golf trip.

Tree's are 75% air - so you should be able to shoot a golf ball through them 75% of the time.

some guys figure if I really get the ball moving faster that will help.

I did get to see one guy hit the trunk of the tree once, and the ball came back and smacked him in the thigh close to his privates.. Lots of curse words, man it was hard not to laugh.

Grass is small and light, Tree's are 75% air.

I've had arrows and bullets deflect from things I thought too small to matter. Which is I hunt with really, really nice glass - so I can see that [bleep]!, and hold my shot for a clearer pathway.

John there is no doubt about it....having a bullet hit anything short of the target is an uncertain business at best,and nothing we can count on.

I may have mentioned this before, but I had pretty much the same thing happen on a Manitoba buck,a willow branch,and with a 160 NPT from a 7 Rem Mag. It too struck sideways, in the liver.

We got lucky, found the deer dead about 150 yards away. I found the bullet and wish I still had it but it's not here....anyway both ends were spun completely out of the bullet, leaving the jacket empty at both ends.

It may be grasping at straws, but I would not die from shock if maybe something similar went on with your bullet.

What I gather from YOUR experience is that you were using a well constructed bullet that was able to deliver a disabling (even if not immediately lethal) wound to a large animal,despite the handicap of the deflection. It put a hurt on him and allowed you to follow up and dispatch expeditiously. Great!

So while we have no absolute prevention against snafus like you hitting that stick (!), the good bullet construction of the 250 NPT served you well.....which is my real point.

If you're gonna get deflection, do it with something that hangs together and gives an edge....at least that's how i view it..

Tried it once with a .308, and light grass. The bullet turned sideways. Still anchored the animal, but he required a second shot. I had heard they will do that, and it did in this case.

Some years ago, think it was one of the Gun Digest annuals, an author did a study shooting into boxes of wooden dowels, to see what sort of deflection emerged. IIRC the light fast calibers tended to have bullets stay online, but turn sideways. The "brush busting" calibers - bigger slower calibers, the bullets stayed pointed in the right direction, but deflected offline. So the end message was, don't shoot through brush

With today's high speed video cameras, this could make some interesting video

It's evidently harder to keep up a good pace in the bush, using a walker...

DF

Years ago,I read an O'Connor article about guns and loads for Africa that was published in a RCBS guide to reloading.
Jack had tried a 338 in Africa and commented that it was not nearly as good in brush as his 375. He did not elaborate on his point or how he had arrived at this conclusion. Being about 14 when I read it,I accepted it as gospel and have not forgotten his advice to this day.

There are of course no hard and fast rules in this bullet deflection stuff. But if the object hit is relatively light,and close to the target,and we are using a well constructed bullet,then it works out okay more often than not in my 40 years of woodland hunting experience.

I can only remember one miss caused by deflection,the limb was less than 1/3 inch in diameter and was about 30 yards from the intended target.

But I mostly try to miss the crap and hit the critter.

After 57 years of hunting in thick brush here, I totally agree with you Bob. No matter what cartridge you use, a controlled expansion bullet of some sort will do you more good than any other in the thick stuff if you happen to tic a stick....

Brit I remember that!

I also remember his 338 was a really nice rifle!


Mike: I like "tick a stick"! LOL!

I always did fairly well with the old Remington Buckhammers at around 1550 or so from my 11-87. Took quite a few deer here in the SE and NE with them and a couple of times on driven deer that were shot while running I was surprised how well those big flat nose slugs tracked and killed deer behind them..

Back in 1991 when Troy first made the playoffs, I had occasion to visit some distant relatives for a few days.

They graciously invited me to go deer hunting the first morning and I of course accepted. I wasn't equipped to hunt so they outfitted me with a Ruger 44 carbine and dropped me off just before dawn about a hundred yards from an old tree stand back in the timber that hadn't been hunted from in about 20 years.
I found the old stand built into a huge old oak easy enough and carefully crawled up into it. As the skies began to lighten I could see the stand was surrounded by limbs in every direction. Once the sun was fully up I was surprised at how dark the woods remained.
After a bit I decided it would be best to move but before I could act a decent young buck strode into view no more than 20 yards distant and stopped broadside directly in front of me. He dropped his nose to the ground as he came to a stop and began to feed. I slowly raised the Ruger and rested the sights just behind his shoulder while trying to avoid any brush and squeezed the trigger. At the shot, the bucks head flew upward as he looked around with head held high, every muscle tensed ready to bolt. You could say we were both surprised, he at the sound and myself at the shots lack of effect. I dared not move and after what was probably a minute I could see the buck begin to relax and then he finally lowered his head and began to feed. As soon as he did I slowly shifted position attempting to find a better shooting lane for the brush bustin' 44 mag carbine and once again squeezed off a round aimed just behind the scapula about midway up. Once again he reared his head and froze all tensed up. I had incredibly somehow missed again. This time the buck relaxed after only a couple seconds and again went back to feeding. Now I thought something must be amiss with the rifle so I carefully looked it over and touched the sights to make sure they were snug, all appeared to be okay so I again shot at the buck, bang and the buck raised his head about midway, took a single step forward and with a twitch of his tail quietly went back to feeding. Well now, let me tell you when a deer ignores your shooting at him it does not enhance your mood. I was more determined than ever to kill this buck. I had only one cartridge remaining and the buck could bolt at any time. No way could I try to sneak down from the old stand, it was just too hazardous so I did the only thing I could think of and took another carefully aimed shot through the best opening I could find. The result was a 2 1/2 (estimated) year old buck totally ignoring the shot. It was simply no reaction at all. I sat still in the stand and watched him feed while trying to digest what had just happened until he quietly walked off dropping over the hill.

After meeting back up with my compadres I mentioned missing the buck, sparing the details and asked if the sights might be off. We jumped in the truck and went down the road a little ways and pulled into a lane and parked. There was a paper plate tacked into a tree and my friend promptly drilled three shots into its center from about 40 yards and handed the rifle back to me.

That afternoon, the hunt resumed with me still toting the 44 carbine and a fresh load of cartridges. I situated myself in a new area that looked promising with mature trees and not too much brush. I was on the ground, standing with my back against a tree when I suddenly heard what sounded like deer on the move coming from my 4o'clock.
I leaned around the tree to get a look and it was a doe followed by what was probably the best mature buck I've seen on a hunt. They were moving fast on a course that would bring them within about 70 yards of my position. The big buck started grunting at the doe as he followed close behind her. I'll never forget how majestic he looked with his huge swollen neck and muzzle extended toward the fleeing doe. They both saw me and just kept right on going without reaction and disappeared from sight. I had so little faith in the Ruger I decided not to shoot. I guess I don't regret it too much.
I never shared the details of the first buck or even mentioned the second buck to my host until years later after we had shared many hunts together.
My hosts father, a rough man in many ways had once spined a doe on a mountain hunt and switched her down to his truck.

I've never done a brush deflection experiment myself. But I've read the results of every test I could find.

What seems to be some factors that improved chances were:

1)Moderate velocity - 2200 - 2500 fps
2)Heavier bullets - 150 grains and heavier
3)Over-stabilized bullet - high S.G. (S.G. of 1.5 to 2.0 is optimum for normal accuracy. A much higher S.G. will negatively impact accuracy but it will improve chances of bullet staying more or less on course after striking grass or brush.
*Bullet shape doesn't seem to matter directly, but a flat nose or round nose flat base bullet will be shorter than a spitzer boattail of the same weight and therefore have a higher stability factor.

Some calibers that meet these factors: .30-30, .35 Remington, .375 Winchester, .348 Winchester

Over stabilisation in mono-metals is less of an issue than in cup-core design projectiles
where anomalies can be present in jacket thickness or air pockets in the core.

Killed an Aoudad in some tall grass last Saturday. Partition bullet wasn't scared of that grass. He was dead right there.