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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
Is it against the law to box a rifle up and cover any markings indicating a firearm is inside,take it to post office and ship?
(I'm not an FFL) Actually, the reverse is law... you may NOT put anything on the outside that indicates it is a gun.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
I've been told the same before. Just shipped one this week. Make sure you are not using a "UPS Store", but rather a hub location. Some of the stores refuse firearm shipments. Not complete information here... "UPS Stores" are not allowed to handle gun shipments as they are not legally "Common Carriers" as defined by law. UPS standard hubs are all good to go and should be problem free.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
I've been told the same before. Just shipped one this week. Make sure you are not using a "UPS Store", but rather a hub location. Some of the stores refuse forearm shipments. The "UPS Stores" are franchises, so they make their own rules. I have a UPS Store about 3 miles from here, but have to make a 36 mile round trip to the UPS Center whenever I want to ship a long gun. Nope, if they accept guns they are breaking Federal law. They are not defined as Common Carriers and may not ship nor receive guns.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Shipped same rifle from same service center to same smith about a year ago. And why did you tell them what was inside? They have no right to ask. Machined parts. At the USPS, you have to answer their questions. Hazards, liquid, etc., but you certainly don't have to tell them it's a gun.
Life is just one damned thing after another
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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Just saying, the law says you need to disclose you are shipping a firearm. Whether your particular driver cares or not is irrelevant.... Bypass that fact at your own risk. He said/she said. Lots of ill informed people on the 'Fire.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,187 Likes: 3 |
UPS just told me they don't ship from firearm owner to ffl holding gunsmith anymore. I haven't tried USPS or FedEX . Are they the same ? UPS told me they quit doing this about a year ago. Do we now have to ship exclusively from FFL to FFL ? Whoever told you that is full of chit...
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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This is not a law as USP doesn't make law.. From UPS website. Damn, where's Bricktop?
From ATF Website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-common-or-contract-carrierFederal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt. Federal law 18 USC 922(e); 27 CFR 47831(a) requires a non-licensee to provide written notice to the common carrier (FedEx, UPS, etc.) that the package contains a firearm. A violation of these provisions of the law is a federal criminal offense.
Last edited by BlackFrog; 01/09/17.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2004
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But you still need to disclose that a firearm is in the package when filling out the on-line shipping label process.
Wrong!
Camp is where you make it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
Just saying, the law says you need to disclose you are shipping a firearm. Whether your particular driver cares or not is irrelevant.... Bypass that fact at your own risk. He said/she said. Lots of ill informed people on the 'Fire. And they have had so many opportunities to find the info easily...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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....and the NRA, I would think their lawyers are on top of the subject: http://www.nramuseum.com/gun-info-research/how-to-ship-guns-and-ammo.aspxIf SENDER is a PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL (non-licensee):
ANTIQUE GUN (pre-1899) to ANYONE: An individual may use either the Post Office or common carrier. Handguns: FedEx and UPS both require that handguns (antique or modern) go by a "Next Day" service.
MODERN GUN to another PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL in a DIFFERENT STATE: An individual can NOT ship direct. He must ship to an FFL licensed gun dealer, who will complete the transfer to the recipient in compliance with Federal & state law (usually a "yellow sheet" form 4473 & instant background check). If it's a handgun, the dealer must be in the same state as the recipient. Recommended: See below for how to ship to an FFL Dealer. Most guns shops will receive and transfer firearms for individual customers for a fee.
MODERN GUN to another PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL in the SAME STATE: Shipment is permitted under federal law. Use the methods suggested for shipping to an FFL Dealer, listed below. STATE AND LOCAL RESTRICTIONS MAY APPLY.
MODERN HANDGUN to a licensed FFL DEALER: An individual must use common carrier, cannot use U.S. Post Office. FedEx and UPS require that handguns go by a "Next Day" service. Carrier must be notified that the package contains a firearm. Returns -- Note that you do not have to have an FFL dealer ship for you to ship to another FFL dealer. However, if the gun has to be returned to you, it will most likely have to be shipped to an FFL dealer near you, who will make the transfer of your gun back to you, and usually charge a fee for this service.
MODERN LONG GUN to a licensed FFL DEALER: May use U.S. Post Office or a common carrier. Carrier must be notified that the package contains a firearm.
Last edited by BlackFrog; 01/10/17.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Or show me where these cited laws and policies from the ATF, U.S. Federal Code, and the NRA are incorrect? Honestly, I'd like to know and be properly informed.
Last edited by BlackFrog; 01/10/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,478 Likes: 4 |
....and the NRA, I would think their lawyers are on top of the subject: http://www.nramuseum.com/gun-info-research/how-to-ship-guns-and-ammo.aspxIf SENDER is a PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL (non-licensee):
ANTIQUE GUN (pre-1899) to ANYONE: An individual may use either the Post Office or common carrier. Handguns: FedEx and UPS both require that handguns (antique or modern) go by a "Next Day" service.
MODERN GUN to another PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL in a DIFFERENT STATE: An individual can NOT ship direct. He must ship to an FFL licensed gun dealer, who will complete the transfer to the recipient in compliance with Federal & state law (usually a "yellow sheet" form 4473 & instant background check). If it's a handgun, the dealer must be in the same state as the recipient. Recommended: See below for how to ship to an FFL Dealer. Most guns shops will receive and transfer firearms for individual customers for a fee.
MODERN GUN to another PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL in the SAME STATE: Shipment is permitted under federal law. Use the methods suggested for shipping to an FFL Dealer, listed below. STATE AND LOCAL RESTRICTIONS MAY APPLY.
MODERN HANDGUN to a licensed FFL DEALER: An individual must use common carrier, cannot use U.S. Post Office. FedEx and UPS require that handguns go by a "Next Day" service. Carrier must be notified that the package contains a firearm. Returns -- Note that you do not have to have an FFL dealer ship for you to ship to another FFL dealer. However, if the gun has to be returned to you, it will most likely have to be shipped to an FFL dealer near you, who will make the transfer of your gun back to you, and usually charge a fee for this service.
MODERN LONG GUN to a licensed FFL DEALER: May use U.S. Post Office or a common carrier. Carrier must be notified that the package contains a firearm. Can you show me the law? As in the US Code or Code of Federal Regulations? I don't think so.
Last edited by David_Walter; 01/10/17.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Well, these are the federal law codes that they (ATF, NRA, and several shipping services) cite, Federal Law 18 USC 922(e), and 27 CFR 47831(a) quoted below. The NRA plainly and clearly states (with no muckity-muck "lawyer-ese" language) on their website: MODERN LONG GUN to a licensed FFL DEALER: May use U.S. Post Office or a common carrier. Carrier must be notified that the package contains a firearm.I'm no lawyer, but I'd like to think the NRA knows what advice they're giving about shipping a firearm...... https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.31 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful --
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that --
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.
Last edited by BlackFrog; 01/10/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
UPS just told me they don't ship from firearm owner to ffl holding gunsmith anymore. I haven't tried USPS or FedEX . Are they the same ? UPS told me they quit doing this about a year ago. Do we now have to ship exclusively from FFL to FFL ? You have to go to a UPS terminal near you to ship a firearm. YOu cannot go to a UPS store. THrow a copy of the FFL in the box with the gun and show the clerk the FFL if absolutely needed. No need to tell him what is in the box, if he asks be honest .
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
I've been told the same before. Just shipped one this week. Make sure you are not using a "UPS Store", but rather a hub location. Some of the stores refuse firearm shipments. They all refuse shipments
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Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
UPS just told me they don't ship from firearm owner to ffl holding gunsmith anymore. I haven't tried USPS or FedEX . Are they the same ? UPS told me they quit doing this about a year ago. Do we now have to ship exclusively from FFL to FFL ? You have to go to a UPS terminal near you to ship a firearm. YOu cannot go to a UPS store. THrow a copy of the FFL in the box with the gun and show the clerk the FFL if absolutely needed. No need to tell him what is in the box, if he asks be honest . If the shipper is NOT an FFL he should not have a copy of the FFL, period. BATFE does not want FFLs to give copies to anyone except other FFLs. There is no duty to show UPS a FFL copy, period!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 716 |
I've had really good luck with Fedex. They don't ask what's in the box and I don't tell them.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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OK. I'll admit it, I think I was wrong. I think the NRA website is wrong, I think the ATF website purposefully skirts the main point of this. The more I read the code over and over, and sift through the legal-ese of run-on sentences, countless commas and semi-colons, I believe the written notification is required for shipments to anyone OTHER THAN FFL's and other licensed entities. Federal law 18 USC 922(e): (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm. 27 CFR 47831(a): No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part. So boiling all that down, isn't this saying: "No person shall knowingly deliver a firearm to any carrier for shipment to any person other than a licensed dealer without written notice." ?? I guess that's saying you need written notice if you're shipping to anyone other than an FFL. For shipping to an FFL, no notification to the carrier is required. The individual carriers may have their own policies, but as far as the actual law goes, I believe I was mistaken. Always learning!
Last edited by BlackFrog; 01/10/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Is it against the law to box a rifle up and cover any markings indicating a firearm is inside... Not all, but many rifle boxes you can "unfold" to a flat piece of card board, and then "refold" in reverse so all of the printing is on the inside. Then just put the factory foam/packing in the box and you're ready to go. Ok. Just checking. So many dam rules now....
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
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I've had really good luck with Fedex. They don't ask what's in the box and I don't tell them. Our local fed ex hub is fine with firearms (long guns) from individual to FFL holder
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