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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Check Minnesota Law. We are required to be a reluctant participant. Shooting somebody from 100 yds away, give me a break. Okay, what section of MN law are you harping on that defines distance? It's not 609.06 - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.06And, it's not 609.065 - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.065Where is it?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Better have a lawyer on speed dial if you shoot somebody in Minnesota and it is not justified. If your life is truly on the line enough to justify shooting ..... WHO GIVES A [bleep] ? Sort the rest out later , Alive.. Old proverb "he who lets mans law sanction his saving of his own ass is a fool "
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ... as I open it a crack they speak : "Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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Better have a lawyer on speed dial if you shoot somebody in Minnesota and it is not justified. Uhhhh, that's not really unique to the wonderful state of Minnesoduh. It's called murder. Google it. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Better have a lawyer on speed dial if you shoot somebody in Minnesota and it is not justified. NEWS FLASH! That is the way it is everywhere!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,441 |
One of the all time dumbest phucqking threads ever.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!" --- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Hey, has anyone yet found that section of MN law that defines a distance for self-defense?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
"Please state to the jury what happened next."
"I shot the man shooting at me six times. Reluctantly."
"ACQUITTED!"
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
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150 feet is not long, unless you are digging a ditch with a shovel. Think about it.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
"Please state to the jury what happened next."
"I shot the man shooting at me six times. Reluctantly."
"ACQUITTED!"
Dave
Yep. Most of this is the same in every state. You cannot be the aggressor (i.e., you can't start the fight and then shoot the guy because you're losing); whether it's called a "reluctant participant" or "clean hands", or whatever. There has to be an immediate threat of death or serious/grievous bodily injury to you. That means that a verbal threat without means or without clear intent isn't enough. But, an armed assailant with a clear or reasonably implied intent to cause death or serious harm is a threat. That threat has to be immediate, not potentially in the distant future, and it has to be immediate in proximity (this depends upon the weapon; a knife at 50m isn't immediate - likely - whereas a handgun at that distance certainly could be and a rifle would be well beyond 50m). In some states, and MN is almost assuredly one of them, there are case law precedents or perhaps statutory provisions requiring a "duty to retreat"; i.e., if you can reasonably/safely get yourself, then you have to do so or attempt to do so before deadly force is permitted. This muddies up the water badly, because it is entirely situational and open to interpretation as to what might have been a retreat option, when, and whether or not it was potentially reasonable or safe. Several states have gone to "stand your ground" laws where you no longer have any duty to retreat in order to remove this confusion from the prosecution/defense of self-defense cases. Some states, probably MN, also require that no lesser degree of force be appropriate to the situation. The response has to be proportional to the actual threat. A healthy, relatively fit and strong man cannot simply shoot a much smaller, unarmed woman for smacking him in the face and claim self-defense; that would be a disproportionate response. However, a small, elderly, mobility impaired man might very easily be able to claim self-defense for shooting a large, aggressive female who physically assaults him. This also brings in lesser available options for defense; a healthy, strong male might easily be able to incapacitate that smaller, aggressive woman or extricate himself from the situation, the older man without strength or mobility would not be seen as having those available options. Again, this muddies the water badly because it leaves a ton to interpretation. In certain states, this may apply to third-parties as well; most extend the same standards to family members, others extend it to any individual stating that all people have a right to life and defense of life of another is a legitimate use of deadly force if parameters are met for the victim to have used deadly force. I.e., in those states, a person can use deadly force to eliminate a threat of death or serious bodily injury to another, if the victim would have been justified in using deadly force to defend themselves. Regardless of the state, if there is a legitimate threat of death or serious bodily injury to you or another and that threat is immediate enough in time and proximity that it likely could kill you, if you don't react and eliminate that threat, you're likely going to be dead. That will result in you being carried by six men. If you do react and eliminate the threat, you might be tried by twelve men. If that's the choice, I'll take my chances with the latter over the former any day. Presumably, the answer is different in Minnesota...
Last edited by 4ager; 01/12/17. Reason: Edit to reflect JOG's point re: MN statutes
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
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Well written. I wonder how the Zimmerman case would have ended in MN. Zimmerman (lawyers) went with self defense and did not seek stand your ground as a defense.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is. dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box. Italian Proverb
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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Well written. I wonder how the Zimmerman case would have ended in MN. Zimmerman (lawyers) went with self defense and did not seek stand your ground as a defense. IIRC, "stand your ground" wasn't at issue in that case. It was a straight up self-defense case. As to how it would have turned out in MN - no telling; with or without the media circus would have made it a different case anywhere, I suspect.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,550 |
In some states, and MN is almost assuredly one of them, there are provisions requiring a "duty to retreat"; i.e., if you can reasonably/safely get yourself, then you have to do so or attempt to do so before deadly force is permitted. There are no additional provisions in Minnesota. The statute in entirety: 609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
In some states, and MN is almost assuredly one of them, there are provisions requiring a "duty to retreat"; i.e., if you can reasonably/safely get yourself, then you have to do so or attempt to do so before deadly force is permitted. There are no additional provisions in Minnesota. The statute in entirety: 609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode. I agree. I could find ONLY 609.06 and 609.065 as far as statutory requirements. What has been established by case law, however, is an entirely different matter and might have bearing on how such cases are prosecuted in MN. Sorry, but I'm not going to delve that deeply into researching self-defense cases in MN to determine whether there is a common law precedent for a duty to retreat. I should have stated it as precedent and not provision, however. That verbiage was a mistake on my part. Edited to reflect your points, and thanks again.
Last edited by 4ager; 01/12/17.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,550
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
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I agree. I could find ONLY 609.06 and 609.065 as far as statutory requirements. You're doing just fine, thanks. A few years ago the governor vetoed a "castle doctrine" law, and since that time it has been assumed by some that Minnesotans have a duty to retreat. That isn't correct - the existing law's provision for taking a life "preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode" makes tossing in a few buzz words redundant.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Pistol shooters would do well to quit thinking of their shots in terms of distance. It's not distance that matters, it's the difficulty of the shot.
Yes, most 50 yard shots are difficult. But not all of them. And most 3 yard shots are easy. But not all of them.
Splitting a bullet on an axe blade at 7 yards requires about the same amount of (or a bit more) sight focus and trigger control as a 50 yard shot on a torso.
Being accurate at 50 yards is about your ability to shoot, which is a different topic than the legitimacy of a 50 yard defensive shot. Dismissing the former, because of the latter, is likely done because you can't perform the former. QFT. When I was a teenager, I shot rocks, gallon cans etc scattered across a bare hillside using various centerfire revolvers and an old Colt 1911. I could only guess the distance, but I soon learned where to hold with each of them. A few years later at the police academy an old Range Sgt. walked us out to the 50 yard line, apparently to teach us humility. We stood there at attention with a holstered, fixed sight 38 revolver, staring at a B27 that looked big as a house to me. Finally he says "Do any of you puppies think you can hit that from here?" I raised my hand and he says "Load six and go for it." I shot like I was always had, one handed, single-action and put six in the nine or ten ring. "Gawd DAMN Son! Where did you learn to shoot like that?" Me- "Shooting at rocks, groundhogs and coyotes Sir." Why practice the long shots? The AH shooting at you only has to be lucky enough to skip one off the pavement into your femoral artery. You have to be good enough to nail him before he gets lucky. I had a rasty ol firearms instructor in training too. He use to let us shoot, then his wife. Wife was about 4ft7inches and had a chief's special. She liked to do head shots at 50 yards to put the puppies in their place. I grew up shooting like you described, cept i've never seen a woodchuck. My dad said a running rabbit is a perfect target to develop handgun skills. I think to this day he was right.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 01/13/17.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
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Fine DA work Flave. Sgt. Deibler would slap you on the back so hard you'd swaller that lip full of Copenhagen you weren't supposed to be dirtying up his gawddam range up with anyhow.
Last edited by SargeMO; 01/16/17.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Sarge!
Two things are memorialized in my brain.
1.) A Drill Instructor telling me to "put it in your pocket" after I spit. 2.) A career LE guy asking "What the fugk are you doing?" after I thumbed a hammer.
Merry MLK day.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Molon Labe
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Wow! That is some good shooting there!
The deer hunter does not notice the mountains
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" - Isoroku Yamamoto
There sure are a lot of America haters that want to live here...
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