Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles The Sandbagging Gun Industry

Just my observations, but ever notice the industry
<br>sandbagging cartridges.
<br>
<br>One way of SB is to bring out a new round like the 300
<br>WSM (which I like very much) and compare it with "new"
<br>300 wm velocities. All of a sudden a 44 year old round
<br>is suffering from the lack of speed. Obvious reasons for this are marketing.
<br>
<br>The industry will for liabilty reasons, will SB reloading data. Yes it's true, Without going into names of people who manufacture bullets for reloading. This comes
<br>straight out of their mouth. It's frustrating for them because they know that many cartritges are for more
<br>capable, (264 win mag comes to mind) than what the
<br>reloading books say.
<br>
<br>The two new WSSM rounds coming out, they already
<br>have been SB. They will have the capacity for far more
<br>speed than what Winchester will tell you.
<br>
<br>Oh and another thing......
<br>
<br>The 338 WSM is on the books, load data, cases made,
<br>full development. It was supposed to have come out this year. For what ever reasons... it got sandbagged.
<br>
<br>Don't bother calling them, they will deny it.
<br>

Yes, I've noticed that over the years.
<br> Back before chronographs were common among the enthusiasts, velocities were often exagerated. As were down range ballistics.
<br> Fortunately such unethical practices are readily exposed these days. And, of course, the liability laws don't allow them to "hot load" their products. Most of the time.
<br> Unfortunately, I've noticed some handloaders claim that some rounds can do, with safe pressures, what most of us know they can't. Unless, of course "safe" means "not for use at temperatures over 60 degrees," and "don't expect case life to exceed 4 reloads". E

A savy handloader can eaisly fix all that. What makes me mad is when they just stop producing a good cartridge when there is still a market for it. For example; the 220 Swift for several years, and the 16 gauge shot shell. Remington finally came around and started chambering rifles and making ammo again for the
<br>Swift after they realiazed it would not die. The recent re-introduction of the 870 in 16 gauge may be a sign that they realiaze it isn't going to "go away" either. ( I can hope can't I )

E
<br>
<br>The manufacutres for liablity reasons are under loading
<br>every thing. The ability to get more is there. Im sure
<br>If I gave you a last name that said that your jaw would drop.
<br>
<br>I get 4 reloadings with my 264 with some of my loads,
<br>I could get more but thats how many I choose to go with
<br>that particular load.
<br>What I don't understand is how a 257 wby with a smaller
<br>bore ratio can be loaded hotter than a 264? And please
<br>dont give me it holds more water, It's all in the neck, that is obvious.
<br>
<br>

I think the manufacturers are giving us honest data, as are the loading manuals. There really is no ballistic "free lunch." It takes a certain amount of pressure to accelreate a given bullet in a certain length barrel. The only way to make it go faster is to increase pressure.
<br>
<br>I think what happens is firearm and bullet makers test loads with min spec chambers. However, factory rifles are chambered with max spec chambers. This lowers the pressures. Before chronographs, we thought loading manual data was conservative, and we were always able to add more powder than was shown as the max. We thought that adding that extra grain or two of powder--with no visible pressure signs--were allowing us to exceed published velocities.
<br>
<br>Then we got chronographs. We learned that most of the time, that extra grain of powder was simply bringing our velocities up to what was published. This makes sense, as a larger chamber will need more powder to equal the pressures of a smaller chamber. When we started significantly exceeding those velocities, we'd get pressure signs.
<br>
<br>I had a 7mm Rem mag when I got my first chronograph and was very suprised how slow it was. I was suprised at how slow most chamberings were.
<br>
<br>Anyway, I think what allows handloaders to exceed published velocities is the ease at which we can exceed 65,000 psi with no pressure signs. OKShooter tested one lot of Rem brass to 80,000 psi--with no signs of pressure.
<br>
<br>I think what casues the fatory loadings to appear aenemic is the diffeence in chamber sizes.
<br>
<br>Blaine

If you want a good read on reloading and everything related to it, read P.O. Ackley's Handbook for shooters and reloaders volumes 1 & 2. He took various cartridges up to the point of blowing out the primers and reports the load data up to and including the loads that caused the primer to blow. There is also a section on action strength where he tested various actions by loading the cartridges so hot they would blow up the action or blow the barrel off the rifle. He also reloaded the same brass over 100 times full length resizing it every time. Some really good info if you are a gun nut like myself. Most of his load data coincides quite well with the reloading manuals as far as max loads. I tend to believe that the factories push the rounds right to the acceptable pressures approved by SAAMI. If you want a manual with the highest max loads, I found the old Hornady handbook where they actually shot, chronographed and pressure checked each load at the range with various production rifles, lists the highest max loads out of all my manuals. I found the lowest max loads to be in the Lee reloading handbook and Metallic Cartridge Reloading. I think they arrive at these loads with ballistic computer programs. The nice thing about them is they give you 20 or 30 different powders for each different bullet weight. Just my 2 cents worth, Rick

Hi SU. The .257 Weatherby Mag. does hold extra powder in the neck. You haven't loaded a compressed charge yet ?
<br> But, the big difference is the free boring on the Weatherby chambering. That permits the higher velocities at the expense of potential accuracy, and throat life. E

SU35--
<br>
<br>One problem with the factory-loaded .300 WSM is the powder used, 760, which is a little too fast, especially with 180's. Winchester is indeed tromping on the cartridge with that powder in order to match the velocities the .300 Winchester Magnum gets while cruising along.
<br>
<br>They use 760 because it's cheap and meters accurately. A handloader can easily fix this, with the powders that have always worked best in the old .300 Winchester Magnum, such as H4831 and Reloder 22. But the .300 WSm still can't quite match handloads from the .300 Winchester, which has more case capacity.
<br>
<br>The pressure-tested data we're now getting from the new loading manuals clearly shows all this. The .300 WSM is capable of the same velocities as the .300 H&H, because they have about the same case capacity.

Mule Deer: I have used H4831, IMR4831, IMR7828 mostly, but have thought about these Reloader powders like re22, would there be an advantage in using that one, like easier metering? I am always looking for excuses to reload and shoot my rifles.
<br>Time I starting trying some of these newer powders maybe.
<br>bill

The advantages of Re-series propellants is great speeds and accuracy. Once I'm above the 223/223Ackley sized case,it is all I shoot and Re-10 just might change THAT. Then my only deviation from their offerings,would be in the Hornet/K-Hornet......................

The Reloder series is great, as Stick says. The big difference between R22 and, say, H4831 short cut is that R22 loses some velocity at colder temperatures, and H4831 does not. This is from my own tests, not a press release. Both meter very well.
<br>
<br>I use both a LOT, but choose H4831sc when it might get cold. The only Reloder powder that doesn't lose some velocity in the cold is R15, which was redesigned for the military a couple three years ago.
<br>
<br>The loss in R22 velocity isn't generally vast (though I have seen as much as 150 fps in some caliber/bullet combos), certianly not enough to affect killing powder. But it sometimes does change point of impact significantly, whci can definitely change killing power!

Thanks Big Stick and Mule Deer, I have not tried the H4831SC maybe I should as the standard offerings are always getting cut when dispensing through my measure.

Partsman,
<br>
<br>I use a lot of H-4831 SC, and it is also cut when metered. However, I don't think this affects the burn rate.
<br>
<br>Blaine

Mule Deer
<br>
<br>Have you been able to try the Magpro yet?
<br>
<br>I have seen adds and talked to a tech rep at customer service, but haven't seen it on the shelf yet..
<br>
<br>I also wondered if it would be a good choice in .458 WinMag..
<br>
<br>Mike

I don't know whether the firearms industry is sandbagging or not, but I do know that I've tested several different cartridges from several different manufacturers, and the pressure and velocities have varied quite a bit.
<br>
<br>When we speak of pressure, though, it is more or less understood that we are referring to peak pressure. And maybe that's the way it should be because it is the peak pressure that will cause things to come unglued. However, higher velocity does not exactly equate to some peak pressure. What determines exit velocity is the pressure area under the curve.

Freeboring a rifle does not allow higher velocities. In tests done on a .300 Win Mag, the loads were shot in a normally chambered rifle and the velocities of the bullets were recorded. The rifle was then freebored for 1 1/2" and then the same loads were fired through it. A significant drop in pressure and velocity were recorded. In order to achieve the original velocity of the un-freebored barrel, 5 more grains of powder was added to the cartridges. This resulted in a return to the pressures of the un-freebored rifle with a corresponding return in velocity. All freeboring does is require more powder to be burnt to achieve the same velocities as an un-freebored barrel. It's very similar to the double venturi shoulder found on Weatherby cartridges. They show no advantage over conventionally shouldered cartridges when powder capacity is identical. Rick

Have not had a chance to try the Magpro yet--haven't even gotten a sample. Plan to obtain some while at the SHOT Show in February.
<br>
<br>

Thanks MD!!
<br>
<br>Mike

You are raising an excellent point, but one that will never be admitted by anyone in the industry. In the climate of looking around for somebody to sue of the present time, I am astounded and grateful that any manufacurer has the courage to offer firearms, ammuntion, components, equipment, or loading information. I guess the manufacturers just love what they are doing. And if I have repeated anything that anybody else said, I apologize. This is a test message by a password fogetter. curmudgeon

The subject of pressure has many aspects. Peak pressue is an indicator not the gospel on velocity. One must look at a graph of pressure over time to begin to understand the relationship. Peak pressure is only as good as it's duration. If one has a round that develops peak pressure for say .001 milisecond, not factual just an example, and that pressure is 58,000 cup. lets say for the sake of arguement that this time is very minimal. The true pressure exerted on the bullet is only maximum for the that alloted time. Next apply 52,000 cup for .01 milisecond. That pressure is exerserted for a much greater length of time thus allowing the gasses to do more work and push the bullet at a more sustained speed down the barrel. This give arguement to barrel lenght, think of hand guns and fast powder. As I noted earlier pressure need duration to work or it need to be higher pressure to preform the same amount of work but at a shorter duration. If you are a pistol shooter shooting magnum loads say 357 you will see a big difference in velocity vs recoil when going from H110 to WIN 295 the H110 is faster with less recoil and peak pressure. So pressure is not the end all for velocity and don't forget drag ...
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.