Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots Durability of Handi-Rifles?

b'watcher:
i'm thinking you might wanna take a look at a .30-30 handi. handloading will puit it into the .300 savage range, and it comes with some pretty stinkin' good iron sights. you can always put a straight grip butt stock on it for $35 or so - or modify the birch one that comes on it.
swamper aside, i still much like the handis in rimmed chamberings like the .30-30 and .45-70, and may pick up another one ...

swampman1 says

why don't you count our posts ? your count on this thread is over double mine. jeez !!!

I bought a synthetic stocked .223 Handi on a whim one day,... put a 6-18X40 Nikon scope on it. I enjoy playing with it but it's not a MOA rifle.

As for durability, I've put about 1000 rounds through it and it's as tight as when I got it.

SharperShooter,

I can shoot SubMOA reliably with exactly 2 of the 54 guns I own. They are nothing like off the shelf. I keep running into guys at the range that complain that their hunting rifles only shoot into 2 or 3 inches, when the gun writed say it should be shooting much better. I point out that I am shooting off a rest, with a $4000 rifle shooting match grade ammo or handloads. Getting a repeatable 2 inches with a factory rifle is good, and definitely minute of deer.

Most people aren't willing to weigh and cull brass and bullets, weigh individual powder loads, check concentricity and work up loads for a particular rifle. Even I am not willing to do that most of the time.

However, when it all comes together, the results are impressive.

0.221 CTC. 5 shots, 100 yards. Repeatable.

BTW, this was not fired from a single shot. I tested my Ruger No 1 30-06 with Federal Gold Medal Match. After fiddling with the Hicks accurizer, I could get a few 5 round groups into about an inch, although groups started to drift as the rifle got hot.

Please note that this was firing from a rest and sandbags. I haven't run the numbers, but I;d guess the aggragate, including flyers puts this No. 1 firmly into the 1.5 MOA category using match ammunition.

Since I don't plan on shooting at anything over 300-350 yards (less if possible) that's good enough.

BTW, a friend once did a study of the 30-30 Win M94 and found that the typical rifle (and these guns have killed many, many deer) shot 4-5 MOA - about the same precision as an AK-47.

Fish... thanks for the thought, turns out I already have the Handi's grandaddy on layaway (see the "Savage .30-30" thread) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I've owned quite a few sub-MOA rifles (mostly Remingtons.) I won't keep a single shot or bolt action that isn't. Two MOA is acceptable for a lever action, but many shoot better than that.

Almost everyone claims to own MOA or subMOA rifles. Apparently, they don't take them to the range, because I've seen darn few. Let's see those targets.

I am particularly suspicious when such claims are made without reference to ammunition used, shooting position, etc.

In my not so limited experience (years of competition shooting, time spent as an FFL and gunsmith) there are rifles that shoot MOA with particular ammunition, from a rest or if the shooter is very experienced, from a target sling. There are no MOA rifles.

The groups I posted above were fired from a KMW tuned Remington 40X in an AICS. The load was 168gn Barnes TSX loaded 0.035in off the lands, with CCI BR-2 primers and 41.0 gns Vihtavuori N135 in Lake City Match brass. The rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA from a rest with this load precisely. Vary the seating depth 0.005in and the groups open up dramatically.

I've had people claim that there rifles will shoot MOA with any old ammo - military surplus for example. None have been able to prove it on the range.

There is a difference between shooting a MOA group and a rifle that shoots MOA......

Often the former and rarely the later........

Y-a-a-a-a-a-a-w-w-w-w-n-n-n-n!

Exactly, Teal.

Whenever somone says their rifle shoots MOA, my first question is usually 'with what ammo?' If they don't have an answer, I call BS.

Anyone who regularly shoots bugholes will be able to tell you the bullet, powder, primer, brass and probably velocity and come ups to 500 or 1000.

Sub MOA shooters can usually talk at length about BC, twist and have opinions about meplat trimming and neck tension. They spend more at Sinclair for reloading gear than most people spend on rifles. They argue about whether to moly or not, and have a well worn copy of the Zedicker book in their bathroom.

Bristoe... a buddy of mine has a setup similar to that for whacking coyotes and hogs on his working cow ranch, I dunno what kind of accuracy he gets. I expect it does "minute of coyote" just fine though.

Birdwatcher

You are exactly right, Tod. Factory hunting rifles that will consistently shoot MOA are very rare. Especially with factory ammo.
I've been a gunsmith & custom rifle builder for @ 40 yrs and constantly hear all these claims. I've gotten to the point when I hear someone bragging about his half inch groups from a BAR etc, that I have to ask if that's "case group" or "bench group".
Seems rifles have one group size when they're in the case (even smaller when it back in the gun safe at home <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) and another when they're sitting on the bench <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Usually you hear something like, "well it would do it yesterday". or "I pulled that last shot" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

3" groups (consistent 5 shot) are about average, IME, from factory rifles with shelf ammo. Some are better & some are worse. Probably a little fairer test of hunting rifles would be 3 shot groups, which would shrink that down somewhat.
Greg

I think the distinction here is that some rifles will shoot minute of angle (sometimes and with three or five shot groups). It is easy to say the rifle will shoot MOA - which it will to be true to the phrase. However, it is not right, as you say, to call that a MOA rifle in the sense that it will shoot five or ten shots into one inch or less every single time. Then too, the other version of MOA could mean a rifle that averages one MOA or less based on the average of group measurements. That would allow larger than one MOA groups sometimes as long as others balanced them out to get the average down.

So, in defense of MOA rifle labeling, I think we need to clarify which definition we are using here. I used to shoot all my loads into five shot groups. Since hunting is what matters to me in rifle accuracy these days, now I usually only shoot three shots. Of course that allows for an easier opportunity to get a smaller shot dispersion. Many of my rifles will shoot MOA often enough to keep me happy (and I will say, whether it is fair or not - it is true- that they will (can) shoot MOA). As has been well stated already though, that does not make the rifles MOA rifles in the truer sense. However, I do like what those smaller groups do say about a given combination if they happen often enough to be more than coincidence.

I have an older Topper 30-30 that was pre bancruptcy from the mid 1980's and this rifle is now my only hunting rifle. (I just hunt whitetail) I replaced the woodstock with a synthetic, that along slimmer profile barrel they used then, keeps this rifles weight just under 6lbs. 7 oz. with a Leupy 1.5-5x20mm scope.

I handload Barnes 130 grain X bullets with a healthy charge of W748 and brass that all weigh around 130 grains and use Rem 9 1/2M primers. Somedays I can shoot 1 inch three shots groups but not all the time. I use Hornady 130 grain SSSP that I bought in bulk for practise. I like this rifle as I'm lefthanded and it fits me well. With a Franks wrist reloader I can get a follow up shot if needed in a fairly quick manner.

I also use the NEF TrackerII for the shotgun only area I hunt. I have the 20 ga. with a 1.5-5 x20mm Leupy on this as my smith drilled and tapped it for me. With todays modern saboted slugs these are real deer slayers as well. I shoot mainly the 30-30 as it is less expensive for practise with the handloads. I think the rimmed versions of these firearms are pretty durable as they operate at lower pressures. I had a .308 and 30-06 in the NEF-H&R brand and did not keep them. I do have an NEF Sidekick muzzleloader that has been fun to shoot as well.

The balance of my firearms are s/a rifles and pistols that I keep and practise with in case of eventualities.

nice post, chainsaw.
the NEFs do best with the rimmed chamberings ...
betcha don't feel handicapped, either, with your handis ...

I sure like my Handis and Pardners. I had a great season using only NEF products.

fish,your are right, I am so used to using just these firearms that I don't even think about it anymore.

confidence in your gear is a good thing.

I must say, I think a couple of you are underestimating. Not Handi-rifles, but MOA rifles.

I own several rifles that will shoot MOA regularly. NO, not every time, and not for 50 rounds in a row, but a 5-round MOA rifle is not all that unheard of. In fact, Weatherby Vanguards MOA rifles are guaranteed to shoot MOA. Never owned one of those, either. These are, reportedly, regular Japanese built rifles that are selectet from the pile for their accuracy, not built any differently than the regular Vanguards.

But the rifles I have that will shoot MOA are: Savage 110 300 Win Mag (with a recoil suppressor). A Ruger 77T in .22 PPC. A 223 CZ. A Ruger 77-22H after a trigger job. And a CZ 6.5 x 55.

That's not to say that they will do it every single time, because I may not be up to it, or the wind might blow a round out, or there could be a flier. But MOST of the time they will delliver. That's at 100 yards...past that, other factors come into play that means a 1" rifle at 100 yards is not necessarily a 2" rifle at 200. Or, probably a 1" shooter isn't a 2" shooter at 200.

I would also add that these rifles have very good scopes on them, all have floated barrels. I think I have a couple more that do it: a built .243 target rifle and a Tikka Sportsman. But it's been so long since I shot them I forget, and I never got serious with the .243 and shot it enough to know, nor worked up the optimal load for it.

"Most of the time" is good enough for me.