|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
And few will kick their own dog. That's why 2" less drift is a mile when your the one with the "advantage".
Just had a discussion with a couple folks on the elevator at my hotel here in Toronto. They are staying on the 17th floor while I'm on the 6th. We all agreed that in case of fire and everyone having to jump out the windows, they would have longer to live than I would - but their extra 1-1/2 seconds or so would not make any appreciable difference in the individual outcomes. Sometimes stuff matters, sometimes it doesn't. As a practical matter, most game is taken at ranges under 300 yards. A 2” difference in drift that occurs far beyond that range makes no practical difference to most hunters. Nor, except as a fluke, does it make any difference to irresponsible hunters like my son-in-law's father, who is one of those willing to take shots at any range but is clueless about how to do so effectively. For him a 2" difference in drift wouldn't get him close to on target with some of the shots he has bragged about missing. In reality, those 2” only matter to a tiny fraction of hunters or shooters. That is, IF and WHEN the 2” advantage actually occurs. A 2” advantage in drift? What does that equate to in terms of yards? Frankly, it depends on what it is compared to. Out of curiosity, I ran a comparison between my .257 Roberts with my +P handloads using a 110g AccuBond and a Hornady Superformance 6.5 Creedmoor 129g InterBond factory load. The following numbers were generated using the ‘Point Blank’ ballistic calculator and assuming 7500 feet, 50 degrees Fahrenheit, 250 yard zeros and a 10mph crosswind. At 500 yards: 6.5 Creedmoor / 129g IB @ 2950FPS (B.C. .485) (Hornady Superformance factory load, 24” barrel) 31.2” Drop 2245 FPS 1445 FPE 13.1” drift .257 Roberts / 110g AccuBond @ 3163fps (B.C. .418) (+P Handload, 22” barrel) 28.0” Drop 2319 FPS 1313 FPE 14.0” Drift For those that are paying attention, that gives the 6.5 Creedmoor less than a 1” drift advantage at 500 yards. To give the cartridge its due, it does eventually reach a 2” advantage in drift – at about 675 yards. By then, though, we’re talking about total drift distances of 25.1” vs 27.2”. Adjust velocities for equal length barrels and the difference shrinks even further. For kicks I ran the calculations for my 6.5-06AI with a 130g Swift Scirocco II. At 500 yards: 6.5-06AI / 130g Scirocco II @ 3161fps (B.C. .571) (Handload, 24” barrel) 25.7” drop 2528fps 1845fpe 9.9” Drift Don’t think I’ll be jumping on the 6.5 Creedmoor wagon any time soon but certainly don't "hate" it or look down on those that choose it. Considered recommending it to Daughter #1 for her first centerfire but a .308 Win won out for number of reasons.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 03/30/17.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
How could you leave 260 out?
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 920
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 920 |
And few will kick their own dog. That's why 2" less drift is a mile when your the one with the "advantage".
Just had a discussion with a couple folks on the elevator at my hotel here in Toronto. They are staying on the 17th floor while I'm on the 6th. We all agreed that in case of fire and everyone having to jump out the windows, they would have longer to live than I would - but their extra 1-1/2 seconds or so would not make any appreciable difference in the individual outcomes. Sometimes stuff matters, sometimes it doesn't. As a practical matter, most game is taken at ranges under 300 yards. A 2” difference in drift that occurs far beyond that range makes no practical difference to most hunters. Nor, except as a fluke, does it make any difference to irresponsible hunters like my son-in-law's father, who is one of those willing to take shots at any range but is clueless about how to do so effectively. For him a 2" difference in drift wouldn't get him close to on target with some of the shots he has bragged about missing. In reality, those 2” only matter to a tiny fraction of hunters or shooters. That is, IF and WHEN the 2” advantage actually occurs. A 2” advantage in drift? What does that equate to in terms of yards? Frankly, it depends on what it is compared to. Out of curiosity, I ran a comparison between my .257 Roberts with my +P handloads using a 110g AccuBond and a Hornady Superformance 6.5 Creedmoor 129g InterBond factory load. The following numbers were generated using the ‘Point Blank’ ballistic calculator and assuming 7500 feet, 50 degrees Fahrenheit, 250 yard zeros and a 10mph crosswind. At 500 yards: 6.5 Creedmoor / 129g IB @ 2950FPS (B.C. .485) (Hornady Superformance factory load, 24” barrel) 31.2” Drop 2245 FPS 1445 FPE 13.1” drift .257 Roberts / 110g AccuBond @ 3163fps (B.C. .418) (+P Handload, 22” barrel) 28.0” Drop 2319 FPS 1313 FPE 14.0” Drift For those that are paying attention, that gives the 6.5 Creedmoor less than a 1” drift advantage at 500 yards. To give the cartridge its due, it does eventually reach a 2” advantage in drift – at about 675 yards. By then, though, we’re talking about total drift distances of 25.1” vs 27.2”. Adjust velocities for equal length barrels and the difference shrinks even further. For kicks I ran the calculations for my 6.5-06AI with a 130g Swift Scirocco II. At 500 yards: 6.5-06AI / 130g Scirocco II @ 3161fps (B.C. .571) (Handload, 24” barrel) 25.7” drop 2528fps 1845fpe 9.9” Drift Don’t think I’ll be jumping on the 6.5 Creedmoor wagon any time soon but certainly don't "hate" it or look down on those that choose it. Considered recommending it to Daughter #1 for her first centerfire but a .308 Win won out for number of reasons. Handloads with a higher BC bullet for caliber vs factory with a ping pong ball. Wow. Put a 140 Berger at 2800fps up against the Roberts and tell me the difference. Or a 147 ELD. Or a 139 Scenar. Or a 143ELD. Or a 136 Scenar......
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Handloads with a higher BC bullet for caliber vs factory with a ping pong ball. Wow.
Put a 140 Berger at 2800fps up against the Roberts and tell me the difference. Or a 147 ELD. Or a 139 Scenar. Or a 143ELD. Or a 136 Scenar......
Most hunters do not handload and a large portion of them select their ammo based on what is available on the shelf in front of them, with can eye toward keeping costs at a minimum. Bergers and Scenars and such are not part of their world. Hornady factory ammo often is. Yes, I used handloads for comparison - because that is what I hunt with. For comparison I very intentionally chose a Hornady bullet of similar construction to the 110g AccuBond I use in my Roberts. Further, if you care to look, you will see the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet has a B.C. of .485 while the .257 Roberts bullet has a much lower B.C. at .418 - a fact you overlooked or ignored. If you want to compare to the Berger or Scenar you will have to do the math yourself. I would be interested in the results. Feel free to use handloads. BTW, Federal's new 130g Berger load shows 15.7" drift at 500 yards. That is almost 2" more than my Roberts load.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 23,686 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 23,686 Likes: 1 |
The 6.5 Creedmoor is the Nickelback of the cartridge world. Technically proficient, yet lacking soul, and marketed towards middle class white men. Both also seem to garner an inordinate amount of hatred, simply because they exist. Business up front, party in the back. It's the cartridge equivalent of the mullet.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,197
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,197 |
6.5 130gr JLK:.600 G1(that's not a guess) 6.5 135gr JLK:.620 G1(same as above)
And don't tell me they don't kill, I'll prove you wrong....
If you think 2-3" more drift at 400 yards is academic, would you rather hit a deer in front of the diaphragm, or behind it with the same wind call?
Luck....is the residue of design...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
6.5 130gr JLK:.600 G1(that's not a guess) 6.5 135gr JLK:.620 G1(same as above)
And don't tell me they don't kill, I'll prove you wrong....
If you think 2-3" more drift at 400 yards is academic, would you rather hit a deer in front of the diaphragm, or behind it with the same wind call? If you go back and read my posts, I was talking about the benefits for MOST hunters - you know, the vast majority that shoot factory ammo and have never heard of JLK bullets and certainly don't shoot them. But I'll play. With the same JLK bullets, I'll take my 6.5-06AI or even a standard 6.5-06 over the 6.5 Creedmoor. Is the 6.5 Creedmoor a good cartridge? Of course. Will most hunters see a big difference using it instead of other cartridges? Not in this lifetime. [Edited to add...] By my calculations a 6.5CM/130 JLK @ 2950fps beats a 7mm-08/168JLK @ 2650fps by a whopping 0.1" in drift at 400 yards. Exciting stuff. (yawn) [End edit]
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 03/30/17.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,748 |
6.5 130gr JLK:.600 G1(that's not a guess) 6.5 135gr JLK:.620 G1(same as above)
And don't tell me they don't kill, I'll prove you wrong....
If you think 2-3" more drift at 400 yards is academic, would you rather hit a deer in front of the diaphragm, or behind it with the same wind call? Would you recommend the 130 JLK as a primary deer bullet in a 6.5 Creedmoor? Shots near to far. Lots of good options out there but I don't know anything about JLKs as hunting bullets.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 920
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 920 |
Handloads with a higher BC bullet for caliber vs factory with a ping pong ball. Wow.
Put a 140 Berger at 2800fps up against the Roberts and tell me the difference. Or a 147 ELD. Or a 139 Scenar. Or a 143ELD. Or a 136 Scenar......
Most hunters do not handload and a large portion of them select their ammo based on what is available on the shelf in front of them, with can eye toward keeping costs at a minimum. Bergers and Scenars and such are not part of their world. Hornady factory ammo often is. Yes, I used handloads for comparison - because that is what I hunt with. For comparison I very intentionally chose a Hornady bullet of similar construction to the 110g AccuBond I use in my Roberts. Further, if you care to look, you will see the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet has a B.C. of .485 while the .257 Roberts bullet has a much lower B.C. at .418 - a fact you overlooked or ignored. If you want to compare to the Berger or Scenar you will have to do the math yourself. I would be interested in the results. Feel free to use handloads. BTW, Federal's new 130g Berger load shows 15.7" drift at 500 yards. That is almost 2" more than my Roberts load. So you won't do it. Got it. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,323
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,323 |
Don't hate it, just don't see what it will do that my 260 won't.
`Bring Enough Gun`
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,669
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,669 |
Cause it is inferior in just about every way Regale me. You really shouldn't post pics like that. I have a handful of un-needed points in KS and pics like this make me jealous. Next time just let me know where you want to pick me up on the way down. Your dad can vouch for me...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,669
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,669 |
Again, I find Coyote Hunter using wind drift comparisons to make is case a bit ironic. Scenarshooter's diaphragm question was an astute example of why, especially when juxtaposed with a few of CH's elk hunting adventures...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Again, I find Coyote Hunter using wind drift comparisons to make is case a bit ironic. Scenarshooter's diaphragm question was an astute example of why, especially when juxtaposed with a few of CH's elk hunting adventures... And you - probably intentionally - miss the point completely. Once again, my comments are regarding the vast majority of hunters who take their game at at ranges under 300 yards and use factory ammo. Very few of them will see any big benefit with a 6.5 Creedmoor vs whatever else they might be using. Does the 6.5 Creedmoor shine at longer ranges? Yes. The benefits of the 6.5mm projectiles are the reason I built a 6.5-06AI.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,881
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,881 |
(grin)
(grin)
(grin)
(grin)
I don't have to worry about anybody possibly thinking I may be clever!
As to the original topic, I was blissfully unaware of all the angst regarding the cartridge until reading this post. Now I'll have to seek therapy on everybody else's dime.
But probably not, as I think I'll survive this tragedy as I did survived the Bamster.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right." Henry Ford
If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
DDD's and B's both have nipples and jiggle. Just saying.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,315
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,315 |
DDD's and B's both have nipples and jiggle. Just saying. Yes. BUT,which one is better in the long run?
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Yes. BUT,which one is better in the long run?
- - I got that !! All I'm going to say is that " I ain't selling my 270 for the creedmoor." Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 131
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 131 |
I'm love mine! But I also love the 260 Rem, and the 6.5x55. I've killed several deer with each with no noticeable difference on game. One plus for the Creedmoor is extremely accurate factory ammo at a good price.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
My 270 belonged to a late Uncle and was given to me by my cousin. When we were kids my aunt wanted to shoot it. He had two soda bottles sitting around 150 yards in the back field of my grandparents place. She sits down and uses the fence as a rest.
"Can you see them?"
"Yeah"
"Shoot the one on the left"
"Ok"
*boom*
"I think I got it"
"Eh, you hit the one on the right......"
That was some funny schit. Maybe it was drift? 270,30-06, blah, blah who gives a phuqq.
Same schit, over and over and over. Grin, GFY, bless somebody's window licking sugar tits.....
|
|
|
|
556 members (1minute, 160user, 1234, 219 Wasp, 222Sako, 257 roberts, 62 invisible),
2,510
guests, and
1,206
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,788
Posts18,515,974
Members74,017
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|