Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Which 32acp Ammunition

how are those pocket 1903's? I handeled 3 or 4 when I was in MI a few weeks ago and liked them

Andrew

Been in my family since 1916! I have carried it for around 40 years off and on, very well made and also very accurate. There are no sharp edges to catch clothing and very easy to conceal because of it flat shape. Mine has a clip on the right side my grandad had put on in the 20's.

that clip is something else. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's my baby. Grandpa brought it back from Germany, shame he passed away when I was 5. I'd like to hear how he "came" to owning it





Andrew

as to the .32acp, any gun is better than no gun. But, there are so many variables. Keep in mind many people have surviced gunshot wounds from a rifle, which has a lot more horsepower. What does that say about a pistol? A .22 long rifle in the eyeball would or up a nostril would surely work.
Want to try that in the dark on someone hopped up on meth?
Even a .40 or .45acp isn't 100% certain in all cases. It isn't so much the idea they won't kill, but WHEN. Also envolved is if you can handle the calibre. I took a sweet young thing shooting last week and let her use my .357sig baby glock.
Too much for her to handle easily, so she is going to most likely end up with a .38special or or it's european cousin, the 9mm.
As to that sauer 38H, I have a couple like that. I have a walther no 4 with a shoulder holster, an m.p. in the 442 got that in germany. A cz27 taken by a guy driving a tank in patton's third army, and, an unfired 38H. A guy in germany at the end of the war, boxcar full of them. He took two. Shot one, and never fired the other, which I have. Nice little pistols

I might add, I also have heard it recommended to use fmj in these little pistols. There ain't much power there. I wouldn't count on that hollow point doing much. The only known way to put someone down, now, as far as I am concerned, is to get a brain shot taking out the computer, hard to do, or get in there enough to wack the spinal column, which stops the transmission. People even shot in the heart can still have enough time in some situations to do massive harm.
I saw a video of a local shooting some months ago, where this guy took two or three rounds from a .40 and still walked to the ambulance.

FWIW, some boxes of Winchester white box .32 FMJ have a flat meplat and some have the round nose - I always open the box before buying to make sure which one I'm getting. Now I know, it's not exactly going to have the hammer effect of a .45 325 WFN, but it's a sight better than plain old roundnose.

Was reading some stuff back when the military was thinking of going to the 9mm. The Germans knew way back before WWI that a flat nose FMJ had a far greater shocking effect that any round nose. The picture I saw was basically a conical bullet (from the case mouth forward) with a pretty small meplat compared to the 9mm diameter.

Alternating FMJ's with HP's may or may not be more effective than either alone. I do know that my plan of attack with my little Kel Tec .32 involves squeezing that trigger about 11 times as fast as I can, even if it only has a 7 round clip!

The 32acp fires a relatively light bullet at a fairly slow speed. Penetration is poor. Bullet upset is poor as well. I think the old 22LR is likely a better choice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I mean if that's what you got, use it, but I'd be looking for something bigger.

And I have a couple of 32acp pistols. I like shooting them, and they are fun on targets, but if you actually get into a fire fight -- hope you never do -- keep shooting till the fight ends -- hopefully in your favour.

I carried a 38 Spl revolver for a lot of years, and that is way better than the 32. I carried a 9mm Luger for some years too. The last 7 or 8 years I carried a 40 S&W in the Sig P229 -- that would be my choice -- lots of money, but LOTS of gun! A little easier to handle than than a 45acp.

Shotguns are probably the best in a tight spot for home defence though unless you absolutely have to have a handgun. 1300 defender sounds good.

I thought a 1300 defender, or a short barreled 870

Andrew

870.

And, get the GoldDots for the .32.

Carried an 870 for a lot of years too. Mostly 00Buck.

The sound of a slide action shotgun racking will loosen your stool and make it drool, for sure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

+1

But before you trust your life to any load, you would be advised to run a couple of hundred rounds of said load to insure positive functioning.

Nice pistol Savage.

thanks. I'll have a talk with the smithy when he gets back into town about finding an 870

BARE BONES, no frills as the barrel, and probably stock will get changed out anyway, and a flashlight (probably surefire) will be added to the tube

Andrew

You guys should read this;

ONE-SHOT STOPPING POWER
How do popular combat loads stack up? Here are the latest results of
thousands of actual shootout.

BY EVAN P. MARSHALL
Reprinted with permission from Petersen's Handguns, November, 1988

The first comprehensive report on my efforts to collect and analyze
actual shooting data was published in the premier issue of this
magazine. The reader response was overwhelming! I received over 100
letters and probably almost as many phone calls. Fully 98 percent of
the correspondence was favorable, while the rest contained varying
criticisms.

The criticism fell into a few general areas:

(1) "The data sample is too small."

When I indicated that I had to have at least five shootings with a
particular load before I would include it in my study, a number of
people assumed that most if not all of the loads included were in this
category. A couple of writers attacked the study on these grounds,
which I frankly find hilarious, since these same gentelemen have
pontificated on the superiority of the .45 auto with no database at
all! Their "proof" is based on sea stories or anecdotal information.

(2) "Marshall is anti-.45 auto."

Frankly, when it comes to saving my life, I'm anti-handgun! Pistols,
regardless of caliber, are generally not really good fight stoppers.
When we know that we're about to go in harm's way, we had better get a
long gun and a lot of help!

Readers should remember that when I started this study I was an IPSC
Section Coordinator and a staunch advocate of the big-bore handgun. As
the results from actual shootings began to come in, I soon realized
that the .45 ACP fell short of all the propaganda certain gun writers
had been spreading far and wife!

(3) "Marshall only advocates the 9mm because his department won't let
him carry a .45 auto."

This refers to a comment in an article in another publication. The
article was written long before I had enough data to make any
intelligent comments. Unfortunately, the magazine in question did not
publish it until several years later. My department (Detroit PD)
currently approves the S&W Model 645 for on and off duty use, but I
still carry my high-capacity 9mm.

(4) "Head shots shouldn't be included because anything works well in a
head shot."

Actually, this criticism has some merit. While sitting on the FBI's
Wound Ballistic Panel last year at Quantico, fellow panel member Dr.
Carroll Peters of the University of Tennessee made the suggestion that
I restrict my results to torso hits only. I thought that suggestion
was a good one, so the results listed here are torso hits only.

(5) "Marshall's 9mm results don't agree with reports from men I know
and trust."

This comment was made by a Florida cop who was horrified by my
recommendation of the Winchester 9mm Silvertip. What this officer is
saying is that he would sooner base his survival on "war stories" than
documented results.

Well known gunwriter and good friend Mas Ayoob collects shooting
results from sources independent from mine. We compare notes from time
to time and there is very little difference in our results.
Furthermore, a rather well known counter terrorist unit shot live pigs
with 9mm and .45 ACP handguns. The results were videotaped and I've
seen the tape. Pigs shot with 9mm Silvertip and .45 ACP Silvertip
reacted exactly the same way and collapsed at the same rate. Pigs shot
with 9mm ball went down father than those shot with .45 ball.

Lastly, a classified study exists on actual shooting results with .38
Special and .357 Magnum. Their findings virtually mirror my results in
these calibers.

CRITERIA

In order to understand why a shooting is included in this study,
readers need to know what sort of information I require:

(1) REPORTS -- before I'll include a shooting in this study, I have to
have access to all the reports. If it's a fatal shooting, I want to
look at and copy (if possible) the homocide file. Autopsy reports are
also required.

(2) INTERVIEWS -- I talk to as many people involved as possible.
Shooting survivors and the doctors who treat them are especially
important.

(3) BULLETS -- whenever possible, I was to either see the recovered
slugs or at least photos of them.

(4) RECORDS -- In survivable shooting I want to see the treatment
records.

These stringent requirements, of course, eliminate the "Me & Joe went
on patrol" type of reports. It also means that the compilation of data
is a difficult and slow process. If it weren't for a network of
sources across the country and overseas, I would never have
accumulated enough data to reach any conclusions. Included in each
segment by caliber is a brief description of an actual shooting where
the load was used. (Contributor's Note: Case Studies were deleted in
the interest of space.)

DEFINITION OF A STOP

For the purpose of this study, a stop is defined as follows:

(1) If the person shot was engaged in an assault when shot, he or she
is unable to continue. In other words, no more shots are fired or no
more blows are struck.

(2) If the person shot is fleeing, they collapse within ten yards.

SHOOTING RESULTS BY CALIBER
------------------------------------------------------------

.32 ACP

Frankly, I had no intention of including anything smaller than the
380 auto, but I kept stumbling across cases where Winchester's
excellent Silvertip load in this caliber was used. The darn thing
always seems to expand in soft tissue. At least, I haven't been able
to find a single instance where it has failed to do so.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W STHP 12 7 58

------------------------------------------------------------

.380 ACP

This caliber was generally ignored as a serious choice for defensive
purposes until Lee Jurras burst on the scene with the Super Vel line
of ammunition. Lee reasoned that the best approach to handgun stopping
power was to reduce bullet weight, make it as fragile as possible, and
drive it at increased velocities.

While the .38 Special was the greatest beneficiary of this approach,
the .380 auto also benefited. Super Vel's offering in this caliber was
an 88-grain jacketed hollow point at 1,022 feet per second from my
pre-war Walther PP. In actual shootings, the SV load rarely expanded
evenly. Generally, it would peel down one side making a sort of "half
mushroom." Only when it hit heavy bone would it provide the shape we
all hope for from our hollow points.

Currently, of course, Super Vel is out of production. Today, we can
shose between hollow point offerings from Winchester, Federal,
Remington, CCI, and Hornady. Of the currently commercially available
rounds, Silvertip has proven to be the best performer. It is a
favorite of undercover narcs, off-duty officers, and civilians, who
like a small pistol for defensive or second gun purposes. Of all the
current .380s, I like the SIG P-230 the best and carry it as a backup
to my 9mm.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

Federal FMJ 27 15 55
Federal JHP 22 13 59
CCI JHP 18 10 56
W-W STHP 31 19 61
R-P JHP 17 10 58
Hornady JHP 9 5 56

------------------------------------------------------------

.38 SPECIAL

Long the traditional police caliber, this round received a real boost
from the genius of Lee Jurras. Lee decided that since a change of
caliber by police agencies was generally too expensive, the best
approach was to upgrade the ammunication. Lee reduced the bullet
weight from 158 grains to 110, hollow pointed the bullet, and made it
rather fragile by utilizing a thin jacket and soft lead core.

The round produced an honest 1,100+ fps from the four-inch barreled
service revolver and expanded well in soft tissue. Producing in excess
of 1,000 fps from the two-inch barreled revolver, expansion was an
iffy proposition from this barrel length.

Shortly after the introduction of the Super Vel line, the other
manufacturers were forced to follow suit. Today, of course, we have a
bewildering variety of "high performance" offerings.

In spite of al the high velocity, light bullet weight hoopla in this
caliber, the best performers in actual shootouts have been the +P
158-grain lead hollow point loads produced by Remington, Winchester,
and Federal. These three loads have produced virtualy identical
results. Producing a velocity in excess of 800 fps from the two-inch
barrel, they are reliable expanders in soft tissue without hitting
bone.

2-INCH BARREL

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 158-grain LHP 29 18 61
Fed 158-grain LHP 23 14 61
Rem 158-grain LHP 16 10 61
Fed 125-grain JHP 26 15 60
Rem 125-grain JHP 39 23 58
CCI 125-grain JHP 18 10 57
W-W 125-grain JHP 24 13 56
Fed 125-grain JSP 48 26 55
Fed 158-grain SWC 53 27 50
Fed 158-grain RNL 112 57 50
Rem 95-grain JHP 58 30 50
W-W 110-grain JHP 50 25 50

4-INCH BARREL

W-W 158-grain LHP 82 53 65
Fed 158-grain LHP 66 42 64
Rem 158-grain LHP 58 37 64
Fed 125-grain JHP 39 24 63
Rem 125-grain JHP 28 17 61
CCI 125-grain JHP 21 13 60
W-W 125-grain JHP 20 12 60
Fed 125-grain JSP 52 30 58
Fed 158-grain SWC 68 37 55
Fed 158-grain RNL 109 60 55
Rem 95-grain JHP 84 46 55
W-W 110-grain JHP 54 30 55

------------------------------------------------------------

9MM PARABELLUM

This caliber was seldom seen in law enforcement circles until the
Illinois State Police and Salt Lake City PD adopted the S&W Model 39
pistol. Most departments, however, looked at such usage as an
aberration, and it was not until the Model 59 arrived upon the scene
that the 9mm began to receive serious sonsideration. The use of
high-capacity pistols in this caliber by bad guys increased the
interest and demand for the high-capacity 9mm semi-auto pistol.

The U.S. military's change to this caliber was the final straw. Today,
of course, it is the overwhelming choice of departments switching to
other calibers of handguns.

Super el introduced high-performance loads in this caliber, but the
stubby 90-grain JHP was not a reliable feeder in the original Model
39s. Eventually, as the pistols in this caliber became popular,
Winchester game us the Silvertip and Federal and Remington gave us
comparable loads.

Winchester's 115-grain Silvertip got a bad rap from various "experts"
after the Miami Shootout. Contrary to rumors, the bad guy was struck
by two Silvertips not thirteen. One struck him in the thoracic cavity,
and the second in the arm. The first hit was a non-survivable wound,
while the second blew out the brachial artery and was potentially
fatal. Both rounds did what they were designed to do -- they expanded
in soft tissue. The argument that the agents would have survived in
they had had .45s is nonsense.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 147-grain JHP 10 8 80
W-W 115-grain JHP+P+ 29 23 78
Fed 115-grain JHP 56 40 72
W-W 115-grain STHP 89 63 71
R-P 115-grain JHP 64 45 70
CCI 115-grain JHP 40 28 69
Horn 90-grain JHP 12 7 58
Horn 115-grain JHP 19 13 68
W-W 115-grain FMJ 63 38 60

------------------------------------------------------------

.357 MAGNUM

This caliber was introduced in the mid-1930s as a higher powered
version of the .38 Special. Not originally developed with law
enforcement in mind, it gradually found a niche in police/defensive
circles.

Prior to the Super Vel line, the only "high performance" .357 load was
the Remington 158-grain jacketed soft point. Not specifically designed
for police use, it produced only marginal expansion against human
targets.

Today, of course, we have a wide variety of offerings in this caliber
in a wide spectrum of bullet weights and styles to choose from. While
some very impressive claims are made about them, most are really not
that spectacular of performers in actual shootings. There are a few,
however, that produce stopping power results that should bring .357
carriers a feeling of real security.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

Fed 110-grain JHP 39 32 82
Fed 125-grain JHP 48 41 91
Fed 158-grain JHP 26 19 73
Fed 158-grain SWC 24 17 71
R-P 110-grain JHP 19 15 80
R-P 125-grain JHP 37 33 89
R-P 158-grain JHP 19 14 74
R-P 158-grain SWC 38 25 66
R-P 158-grain JSP 23 17 65
W-W 110-grain JHP 31 26 84
W-W 125-grain JHP 53 45 85
W-W 145-grain STHP 26 20 80
W-W 158-grain JHP 51 36 71
W-W 158-grain SWC 64 46 72
CCI 110-grain JHP 18 15 83
CCI 125-grain JHP 24 21 87
CCI 125-grain JSP 14 10 71
CCI 140-grain JHP 23 17 74
CCI 158-grain JHP 20 14 70
CCI 158-grain JSP 18 12 67
Fed 158-grain NHP* 11 8 73
Fed 158-grain SWC* 14 9 65

*Nyclad rounds
------------------------------------------------------------

.41 MAGNUM

This caliber was developed in the mid sixties as the "ultimate police
cartridge." Unfortunately, a series of mishaps doomed it almost from
the beginning. One department switched to the S&W Model 58 revolver in
this caliber and then issued the jacketed soft point ammo instead of
the moderate-velocity lead semi-wadcutter offering. The recoil
differences between the full power magnum loads and the .38 Special
they had been carrying were dramatic and qualification scores
plummeted. Another department carried the SWC load, but compared their
qualification scores fired with factory .41 ammo with scores fired
when they were using N-frame .357s with .38 wadcutter reloads.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

R-P 210-grain SWC 20 15 75
R-P 210-grain JSP 11 9 81
W-W 210-grain JHP 9 7 77
W-W 210-grain SWC 19 14 73
W-W 175-grain STHP 14 12 85

------------------------------------------------------------

.44 SPECIAL

Just as the .38 Special preceded the .357, the .44 Special was the
forerunner of the .44 Magnum. People like Elmer Keith developed heavy
handloads for this caliber that eventualy generated enough interest
for the .44 Magnum to come into begin.

Of course, once the .44 Mag was a reality, interest in the Special
waned. The only load available in this caliber was the 246-grain round
nose lead load, until Charter Arms produced the .44 Special Bulldog.
Subsequent to that, S&W re-introduced the Model 24 and only increased
the demand for high performance ammunition in this caliber. Even the
hottest .44 Special loads in this caliber are mild when fire in the
N-frame Smith.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 246-grain RNL 24 18 65
Fed 200-grain LHP 19 13 68
W-W 200-grain STHP 20 14 70
R-P 200-grain SWC 10 7 70

------------------------------------------------------------

.44 MAGNUM

This round was not given serious consideration as a law
enforcement/defensive caliber, until the advent of the "Dirty Harry"
films. Then everyone had to have one! It didn't matter that few could
control this revolver in rapid double-action fire with full power
loads, people just had to have them.

The introduction of loads like Remington's medium-velocity offering,
Winchester's Silvertip (a sort of three-quarter magnum load), and
Winchester's medium velocity SWC offering, have made this caliber an
interesting alternative for police or civilians who prefer the
big-bore revolver.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 240-grain SWC 30 24 80
R-P 240-grain SWC 38 31 82
W-W 240-grain JHP 26 21 81
W-W 210-grain STHP 20 17 85
Fed 180-grain JHP 16 13 81
Fed 240-grain JHP 21 18 85
R-P 240-grain JHP 12 10 83
R-P 240-grain SWC* 40 28 70

*Medium velocity
------------------------------------------------------------

.45 ACP

The big auto, of course, is a very popular defensive handgun. Not seen
that widely in law enforcement, it is nonetheless what most
knowledgeable people consider a superior choice to save one's life
with. I have carried one, and there is a certain emotional tie to that
big old jacketed slug. The actual facts, however, do not support all
the mystical qualities that have been ascribed to it.

I don't have any problems with those who prefer it to other sidearms,
but I do object to lies, myths and unsubstantiable anecdotal stories
about it. Carriers of this round are extremely smug about the fact
that none of the horror stories are told about stopping power failures
with other calibers exist about the .45 ACP. Well, I hate to burst
anyone's bubble, but read on.

FAILURE #1: A southern cop, he was on midnight patrol in the downtown
area alone. Driving past an alley, he saw two men standing with their
back to him at a doorway. He called for backup, but decided to
investigate matters before his help arrived -- an almost fatal error.
He yelled at the two men to turn around. They did and opened fire with
the .45s they carried. The officer took five torso hits with .45 ball
and collapsed. He told me from his hospital bed, "Evan, I knew I was
going to die in that alley, and then I heard those bastards laughing
at me." Pulling himself to one knee, he pulled his duty revolver and
killed them. His weapon? A S&W Model 10 loaded with 158-grain round
nose lead ammo!

FAILURE #2: The rooming house residents had been arguing all day.
Finally, two of them had traded blows and vowed to go and get their
guns. They met in the hallway. One was armed with a Government Model
Colt loaded with hardball, while the other had a cheap .22 caliber
revolver. Our .45 lover laughed and opened fire After he emptied his
gun, he looked in amazement as the .22 carrier pointed his small
revolver at his chest and fired once. The auto dropped from his hand
as he died. The .22 carrier went to his room, changed clothes and then
took two different buses to the hospital where the doctors removed
seven rounds of .45 ball from his chest.

FAILURE #3: A motorcycle cop, he carried a Colt Gold Cup loaded with
200-grain jacketed hollow point ammo. Making a traffic stop for a
minor violation, he was suddenly confronted by a revolver-armed
motorist. The officer fired twice and then game chase as his attacker
took of on foot. The foot pursuit lasted for 13 block, until the bad
guy ran into a garage and, sticking the gun in his mouth, took his own
life. The autopsy found a .38 slug in his head and two expanded .45
hollow points in his chest!!

FAILURE #4: A U.S. military member with counter-terrorist
responsibilities, he carried a cocked and locked .45 everywhere he
went. He and his wife were walking to their car in the theater parking
lot when he was confronted by three long-haired youths. They demanded
his wallet, and when he told them to forget it, one pulled a knife.
The soldier's response was swift and sure. He pulled his .45 and
double tapped the kid with the knife. Turning his attention to the
other youth, he suddenly heard his wife scream his name. Turning, he
saw the knife sticking from his wife's stomach. He shot the stabber
again and grabbed his wife. While in the process of providing first
aid for her, he heard a car start and saw the youth drive away. His
wife was rushed to the hospital where emergency surgery saved her
life. While leaving through the emergency exit, he saw her attacker
walking in for treatment. The 16-year-old holdup man had taken four
rounds of .45 ball in the chest and was still mobile four hours after
the incident!

FAILURE #5: A citizen was in his living room, when he heard sirens on
his quiet residential street. Looking out the window, he saw a
sheriff's deputy struggling with a man. A reserve deputy and IPSC
shooter, our hero grabbed his Lightweight Commander and ran outside.
He had just reached his driveway, when he saw the bad guy had the
deputy's Magnum. The reserve quickly fired three shots from his
Commander. To his horror, the bad guy quickly shot the deputy and
opened fire at the reservist. The bad guy then jumped in the deputy's
vehicle and escaped. He was found three days later by the state patrol
in a gas station. He had to be forcibly subdued before they could take
him to the hospital where the doctors removed three rounds of .45 ball
from his back!

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 230-grain FMJ 79 51 63
W-W 185-grain STHP 30 21 70
Fed 185-grain JHP 36 25 69
R-P 185-grain JHP 26 18 69
CCI 200-grain JHP 46 34 74

------------------------------------------------------------

.45 COLT

This caliber was generally neglected by those seeking a defensive
handgun until two things happened. First, S&W introduced the Model
25-5 in this caliber. It is a moderate recoil gun that throws a big
old heavy lead slug that a lot of people find comforting. Second,
Winchester and Federal gave us hollow point loads for this weapon.

It is very popular among cops who either cannot carry a Magnum or who
are recoil conscious. Guys and gals in my department buy and carry a
lot of these revolvers.

LOAD TOTAL STOPS PERCENTAGE

W-W 255-grain RNL 64 41 64
W-W 225-grain STHP 29 20 69
Fed 225-grain LHP 30 21 70

------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION

This is where things stand as of July 7, 1988. Careful readers will
not there have been some substantial changes in some calibers and
loads. Again remember, this is not "Marshall's Theory of Stopping
Power." My ego is not tied to any of this, and I will follow it
wherever it leads me. I have no axe to grind and the whole purpose of
this study is to provide good guys and gals with enough reliable data
to make an intelligent decision. The information provided here is just
a small portion of what will be contained in a stopping power book I'm
in the process of finishing.



I was wondering how long until someone brought up Marshall & Sanow....

Where's that "Ah Jeez, not this schit again" pic?

It's needed....

Bill,

First � That book and it�s data is well about 15 years old now�A lot has changed in ammunition since then.

Second � Marshall and Sanow�s methodology is highly controversial and hardly qualifies as gospel. The book is an excellent book on what handguns do right up until you get to the �Street Results� and all the nifty charts.

If you understand the mechanics of what a bullet does, you�ll see that the load choice has very little to do with incapacitation, and bullet placement has almost everything to do with incapacitation.

More than anything else, you want a load that works in your gun 100% of the time. Next, you want a load that hits to point of aim. Next you want sufficient penetration (I�ll let you decide what�s sufficient for you). Next you want to make sure you don�t have too much penetration. Next you want sufficient expansion.

If you can get all of these, you have a great load. If you only get the first and second, you have a good load.

This is what i carry when i dont want to carry a gun.
Notice the RN profile of the Ammo.
The RBCD 32ACP is 1815 fps / 271 flbs out of the Kel-Tec.

what's a beat up 870 run around now?

Andrew