Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

These days, there seems to be LESS time than more, for pursuing this particular grail.
Look, this whole small bore center fire stunt assumes a good, and continuing source of primers.
I'm going to assume the continuing availability of building supplies.
When (and if) the window of opportunity to do so re-opens, I intend to try fitting a Ram Set cartridge into a sleeve,.....the composition of which is as yet undefined. The sleeve has to obturate, stay with and seal itself to the base of the Ramset charge, and as well hold and align the cast projo correctly in the throat of the( also as yet undefined / blueprinted )chamber. Then there's the sticky wicket posed by extracting the spent, "case".
I can tell you that initial ventures with pest control shot loads in quarter bore have been VERY encouraging.
Been using poly tubing,....don't like it at all, and know that what's needed is a paper "sleeve" ,....were it nitrated, or otherwise impregnated and formulated to be consumed during the launch cycle,....so much the better. Option B. would be to have re-usable metalic "sleeves", and proportion one's chamber for that fire mission.
For rifled arms, I think the degree of ballistic uniformity that's an essential design parameter in the Ramset charges will be a real accuracy edge. 5 different power levels to choose from covers a lot of ground,....from subsonic levels and up.
....interesting muse, this one.

GTC

By doing everything yourself (casting, loading, etc.), using scrounged lead that is free or virtually so, one can equal or beat the cost of average .22RF ammo-- the wrench in the works is the time spent doing it. If one views that as a hobby and treats it as one would any other handloading venture/experiment in chasing pure accuracy it makes total sense. If one's goal is to prepare plinking ammo for blasting tin cans, golf balls, rocks, and pine cones at 50 feet (wherein I bet 70% of RF ammo gets wasted in this country) then it's a losing proposition- save your time and buy a brick of Walmart .22's.

Scrounged lead is hard to come by in these parts. The place that don't sell to a scrap dealer all seem to have somebody lined up. For my purpose, small game shooting with a Hornet, the price of jacket bullets isn't a problem. You can get a lot of bullets, especially if you wait for sales, for the price of a Lyman mold and handles, not to mention the added cost of non-scrounged lead. My favorite is the 46gr FP Speer made for the .218. Last ones I bought were about $.14 each. It's no great trick to get other ones for $.10 or so if you are patient. SPS seems to have lots of blem and overrun Varmageddons available.

I wouldn't try to get a jacketed slug down in the .22LR velocity range, but 2000 or so is good and should be enough for the odd turkey, fox, or 'yote.

....a full 1200 FPS OVER the velocity window we're trying to define with SDs and ESs in the single digits.

Not just accuracy,....EXTREME accuracy.

Gratifying to see the amount of interest in this quest, that's actually laying barely dormant, and just awaiting the right growing conditions.

GTC

Midsouth's .224 Varmint Nightmare bullets are always available at under 10 cents apiece, with the 40-grain hollow-points regularly priced at around 9 cents.

On the other hand, I just did an Internet search this week for .22 Long Rifle ammo, and found several brands available for under $30 a brick, including a couple around $25. It looks like the price is dropping, at least for now. I didn't buy any because I didn't need any, though it might have been a good investment if another buying panic occurs, for whatever reason. A bunch of shooters still refuse to buy ammo via the Internet, with some of them still haunting Wal-Marts.

Keith always said the .32 Long was very accurate and I think it was used in competition for a while. My limited use has always been favorable on stuff like crows and groundhogs.

Why not load it down to about 950 fps with a 98 grain SWC for suppressed use on stuff smaller than pigs?

YES !

.....let's here it for the .313 to .316" groove dia !

Based on recent evolutions and devolutions, I'm planning on assembling a Stevens 44 in one of the 32s,....the 32 S&W short being my own particular choice. Still looking for a Moison or SMLE barrel to turn down into the liner / insert, all the rest of the plunder's on site.

GTC

I must say this has been one of the more edifying threads to come along in while.

I too have a soft spot for .32 "bunny rifles" , and have a Stevens 44 too that may get turned into one (actually a 414 Armory with a bad bore), but I'm not ready to abandon .22rf's so it may get relined instead.

I have a Martini Cadet on the chopping block that I would love to have a half dozen interchangeable barrels made for: Hornet, 5.6x50R, .32 Long, .22 HiPower, .25-20, and .357 Max. But unless Daddy Warbucks writes me a big check that's not happening.

As for cheap/free lead, it's still out there. I was having new tires installed recently and came away with two 5 gallon buckets of wheelweights for $20/ bucket. Two weeks ago a friend laid 70 pounds of Linotype on me. All that translates into about 200 bazillion 50 grain .22 bullets. (All that on top of the roughly half ton of lead I already was sitting on.) Be persistent, think outside the box, and be ready to get your hands dirty, and the lead will find its way into your gun barrel.

Well, if we're looking for 22RF subs, then the logical choice for me came with the 357's I already load for, 3 revolvers. The 357 lever rifle made it easy to avoid the higher cost of 22's a couple years ago, if they could be found at all. How easy to run these through my Dillon 550 and shoot em all in any revolver and the lever. Easy peasy....and only dropping 5 grs. Not three times the powder charge. And let's not overlook the search for components is not a hunt at all.

I still got to shoot those 243 win 55's I loaded with Blue Dot.

This gets more interesting with each contribution and educational to boot. Having spent several days hopping around cyberspace on the quest I find several things of note. There is hardly a shooting forum out there that does not have substantial discussion in the archives on the topic. Will throw a couple of thoughts out for consideration and see where it leads.

Every cartridge serves a purpose, a niche sometimes larger here and smaller there. No need to illustrate it really, but there are a lot more .243 Winchesters afield than .460 Weatherbys, etc, etc. I've no doubt the .22 RF is the largest segment in production over the scope of the marketplace.

Gnoahhh just reiterated a valid point regarding the direction I'm headed....SV .22 RF equivalency that can be reloaded. I don't care necessarily that it be .22 caliber, but I do look at the playing field and see potential success defined by the ease by which something like this might hit the market. I note that a vast supply of .310" diameter buckshot is out there, and recognize the potential for folks to fiddle with such things such as a ".30 VD" roundball load.

When I did the cost calcs on the OP I was looking at current costs for available components and materials, AND the fact that such things might be available when other supplies were not, such as .22 RF ammo as recently experienced. I've not bought any .22 LR or Short ammo in years other than a chance purchase of Norma Tac about 3 years ago. I don't shoot it much and that is tempered by the recent shortages. I do shoot a lot however. That begs the question is such circumstances, what am I going to shoot? Availability notwithstanding, the cost of reloading anything has spiraled upward in recent years by significant degree. As example I've seen bullets suitable for the .416 Rigby "on sale" for $3/piece quite recently. Why bother with that when the dreaded CB short will cap a hog easy enough?

I have played the reduced load/cat sneeze game like most here and while it works, I've seldom seen it work with aplomb. Good enough for a pest? Yes. Good enough to brag about? Not so much or very often. Been there with the Hornet, .25-20 Win, .30-30, .38 Special, .44 Mag and so forth. Problem at hand for the most part, assuming that fine accuracy/precision is desired, is a complementary load density for the objectives at hand. There have been a number of small capacity .22 cartridges introduced in my life, some have been successful, most not so much. They have focused on velocity realms in the range of the .22 Hornet and upwards. Fairly stiff competition if one is going for a bit of snap in the velocity spectrum, no?

So, how does the world turn with .22 RF guns? Price a brick of .22 short ammo these days, or perhaps a brick of high quality LR match ammo. Uh...."gasp" comes to mind. Yesterday, on sale, CCI CB Shorts were available (for the first time in awhile) at around $12/box of 100. Ho Li Gasp'nmoan. Will it always be like this? Probably not. Do we need to be cornered like this in the future? No.

Here's a premise I've based my inquiry on: If anything is worth doing, it is worth doing correctly. That would mean putting all shots in the X-ring in a metaphorical sense. Nothing is perfect for all applications, but reasonable goals can be met or exceeded. Conceptually the .22 rimfire is a stroke of genius, but it has baggage. The heeled bullet is one aspect and high precision is a demanding pursuit. Mass production introduces variables which confound the pursuit, and if one is intent upon high precision with the cartridge, it is not cheap in any regard.

So, how does one segway into a new market niche with success? I'm not perfectly certain on this, but have a few thoughts. Accept for the moment that gun cranks are often capable of producing superior ammo to the manufacturer given and opportunity to do so. There are folks out there disassembling .22 LR ammo, rebuilding it and shooting remarkably well with both smokeless and black powder. It's a hobby pursuit, it is time consuming and something that stems from the "I can do better" mentality. What they are NOT doing is reinventing the wheel. Col. Askins' modification of the 5.75 VD into a spec .22 RF equivalent is an example. He won a national match in the end by doing so. He used a .22 RF gun that was slightly modified, converting it to CF configuration, case closed. He spent considerable effort in modifying the VD case to make it work, but in the end it worked within the framework of existing components and platforms.

I am not caliber allergic and have no vested interest in one over the other except as a matter of practicality. I was thinking ".224" bullets" when this started, but give it a thought or two. Do I/you want to invest the time in forming cases and modifying guns and so forth? Not so much. I'm looking for a straight path to create a reloadable .22 RF alternative for reasons previously stated. Here's what might work: A .22 LR equivalent case, CF primed, that uses SAAMI spec diameter bullets suitable for current production .22 RF arms....without the heel. We are talking a very minor excursion of dims alteration here, most in the brass wall thickness and bullet design. At the end of the day, Ruger, Remington, Winchester et all can manufacture arms with existing tooling and provide options which enable straightforward conversion. Ammo .22 RF spec dims? Put the CF bolt in your 10/22 and rock on. change the bolt in your Savage and go shoot something. Need bullets? Hornady has been selling swagged lead bullets all my life.

I can do it in my own way because I have a single shot rifle. Simple action alteration makes it optional for many. It is a marketing suggestion as much as anything. Sort of like having a revolver which shoots the LR and WMR, though it will shoot better because cartridge dims are compatible.

I'm doing a variation of this dance with the .30 Sneezer at present and it has been quite interesting....and rewarding. My per round costs are about in the 10-12 cents/round realm at present. I cast my bullets, form the brass, load and shoot. Yesterday it lead to a .233" group of 5. Second, third and forth place were less that .6" groups of 5. Pigs have died as a result.

Thanks for joining the discussion, I think the idea is worthy on large scale and certainly doable at a lower level. BTW, BACO has VD brass available....at about $2.50/case.

I may still do a long barrel 25ACP in a single shot that could serve as a 22RF alternative. Need to check off some other things before get to it, then find a platform to handle the semi rimed case.

Only issue there is .251 cal jacketed are hard to come by these days (although I have about 700 xtp's here) so casting would be in the future.


BTW, Dan, you are one of the few gents here that can fill a screen with text, and still make it coherent and readable.

Thank you. I suspect your challenge with the .251" groove will be finding a barrel long enough. Went down that trail about 5 years ago trying to restore a .297-250 Rook, could not find the tube anywhere. Mebbe fudge it and go to .257"???

Thinking a barrel from a 25 Stevens may do. I know where two complete Stevens tip ups in 25RF are at right now...

Here's a couple of rimfire alternatives. I played with some Trail Boss in my Browning 53 32-20. Definitely rabbit worthy. Groups shot at 25 yards and the rifle wears a Lyman 66 receiver sight.

Can advise that , while they may be absolutely FINE barrels, with many years of cast bullet shooting ahead of em'....shooting jacketed through them will be an unkind move,.....

GTC

Funny sidebar from a similar discussion elsewhere is the thought of reloading .22 RF in existing form. Kit in the market with all the bells and whistles, to include the chemistry to make priming compound. Not going to do that myself or encourage kids to that end, but it illustrates...something. Interest in the pursuit. I'll link it later, on the phone in a boat.

I've got a beat up Savage 23 that I can use. Looks like it was an old barn gun Sub Sonic hand loads are not much louder than a 22 RF.

It's my...ahem...backyard deer rifle.


Dan

Mart, you be havin' fun with that rig!

In the interest of clarity regarding my objectives, the price issue is but one part of the puzzle.

My earlier estimate was something just under 5 cents/round, loaded and ready to pop. That was based on costs of .03/primer, $2/# of lead and 1-2 grains of powder in the range of $30/#. I recognize the prices are variable based on supply source and in fact may present somewhat differently. As example, 1# bars of pure Pb from Rotometals on today's menu is $2.99. Yesterday a local friend purchased 100# of roofing lead (functional equivalent to pure Pb) for $60. Depending on source tin can run $10-20/#. It's ballpark estimating and no inclusion of energy costs or time are included. I suggest that might be a wash in some cases with shipping for more sophisticated supplies. I do not see any financial incentive to using more components than required. I do not suggest a larger caliber won't work, but it will certainly cost more. I can cast 149 bullets of .224 caliber and 44 grains lead with a pound of alloy...and that is significantly cheaper than on sale specials for jacketed bullets. Roughly, 2 loaded rounds for the cost of one jacketed bullet.

Availability is a central issue. Are primers available? Rimfire Ammo? The proposal adds redundancy and properly crafted I doubt it will be an expensive entry. For example, add a CF bolt to a 10/22, buy a mould and set of dies.

The stipulated velocity realm is subsonic. That is my choice and your whims may differ. No objection on my part to that point, but as previously stated, I've traveled the road with results below my acceptable level of performance. If I want .22 mag/.22 Hornet velocities I will load and shoot them. There are both advantages and disadvantages to either side of Mach 1. Which way you drift on that is likely as much an issue of what you do and where you do it thing than any other influence. With a velocity of 1050 fps my Sneezer bullet has a calculated BC in the high .300 range. It drops off quite a bit above supersonic velocity and that is the nature of that form of bullet with a flat base. It does not suffer mach buffet or changes in aerodynamic moments at sub velocities. So far, it is pretty much as accurate as anything I shoot.

After some batting around of the idea I'm growing more convinced that should it ever develop it will be a useful and popular niche if it can integrate into existing platforms, action style be damned. Yes, I can and you can, do it wild and enjoy it. I'm looking for an opportunity suitable to the masses.

One comment I recall from Hornady's manual on the .25 ACP was that reloading it "was not particularly rewarding" Typical powder charges were miniscule and the cases hard to handle.

Funny you should mention a .30-something. There is a .300 Rook here that needs shooting.



by accident I discovered I'd bought the rifle in this video:



I've loaded some 50 rounds with commercially available brass and bullets. I'm not terribly optimistic the bullets will go where aimed, as the Buffalo Bores are exactly .300 diameter. Need to slug the bore. If one could swage a 0 or 00 buck ball into a suitable bullet, seems it would be fairly cheap and faster than casting.

Not suggesting the .300 Rook case will be a good choice in the long term but maybe a variant of the .32-20, or a shortened .30 M1 carbine case, could be an economical case for such a round.

DD- If you're suggesting a commercially produced round, I would think that the .22 CCM would be the best starting point. Shorten the COL to fit through long rifle length actions and keep the pressures in the .22 RF levels and you could re-chamber existing RF rifles and modify / replace bolts for a center fire pin.

One problem that I encountered when I was developing RF equivalent loads for the .22 Hornet was the lack of availability of commercially cast .224 bullets. I can't see re-loadable .22 LR equivalent being a success without commercially available cheap bullets.