Revisiting an idea tried before in different iterations and looking for thoughts. In days past there have been several straightwall .22 CF cartridges, the most recent failure being the Cooper .22 CCM. They were in circulation and competing with an abundant supply of cheap RF ammo and fell by the wayside.

We have been on the wrong side of the price/supply equation for some years now and I ponder the viability of pursuing the idea once again. Rather than trying to recreate the Cooper round I'm thinking that the target for performance should or might be the .22 LR at the standard velocity range with 40-45 grain cast or jacketed .224" bullets, something that would be suitable for the handloading crowd.

Some of the numbers I ponder:

Depending on a few variables, 3,500 - 7,000 loads from a pound of powder. Assuming $25/# we are left with about .35-.71 cents/round.
Assuming $2/# for lead, the cost per bullet is 1.15 cents per round.
Primers will cost about 3 cents each at current prices.

Total cost per round, excluding brass is about 4.85 cents per round. I figure brass life to be very long due to low pressures and on assumption of compatibility of die/brass dims. Lighter bullets or round balls might be driven with only a primer, thus presenting some additional cost reductionns.

Thoughts?

Don't be bashful, I can take a jab or two.

Not straight walled but the .22 Hornet can easily load down to whatever velocities you want.

True, and having traveled that path with mediocre results it does not inspire. Thinking load density is key to success and a straight wall case has some advantage. I suggest, based on experience, this endeavor would favor cast bullets for the most part. Pounding a stuck jacketed bullet from a Hornet barrel is not a lot of fun. They tend to start doing that around 1100 fps in a Ruger #1.

I just make low velocity hand loads for my 223 bolt action.... 1800 FPS, 55 grain FMJ bullets I paid $.05 for, so really more like the 22 WMR. And cheappppp.

I download a .221 FB for small edible game. 13.o gr H4227 w/ 55 FMJ for about 2,100 fps

How do you get 'em slowed down that much? Pistol powder?

I went through this at the peak of the rimfire "shortage," and ended up with a Lyman mold that casts wheelweight bullets that weigh 43.5 grains. Supposedly they're gas-checks, but I tried various alternatives and found they shot best from my Ruger 1B .22 Hornet unsized without gas-checks. I just cast them and rolled them around in Lee Alox, then loaded them the next day. Also found I didn't have to resize even the necks of cases, as the "oversize" bullets (around .225") seated just right in unsized brass. The best accuracy turned out to be with 5.0 grains of Accurate 5744, for 1080 fps and sub-inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards. All my wheelweight metal came free (and still does, when I pick 'em up off the street), so the total cost per round is about a nickel. One of the best parts is that when the 3-9x Burris Fullfield II on the rifle is sighted-in 1" high at 100 yards with full-house varmint loads using 40-grain plastic tips at around 3000 fps, the cast load shoots right at the tip of the bottom post at 50 yards, with the scope set on 6x.

Also worked up a .22 magnum equivalent load with 8.5 grains of IMR4227 and some 45-grain Remington round-noses I got really cheap somewhere years ago. This load shoots even better at around 1750 fps.

When the rimfire shortage hit I just kept shooting my 38 special's, a K38 revolver and a S&W 52-2. Loads were cheaper than over paying for 22LR. Latest is a S&W Model 53 in 22 Jet. Not as cheap as a 22LR, but WAY more Bang for the buck..

Thanks for that info. I have not tried cast in a Hornet yet, it something to ponder.

I wonder if Mr. Kilbourne's spirit will be angered if I do this in a M54 he did some work on?

Nah, but if it makes you feel better, make some jackets out of 22 cases. On the left is a 43 gr. .224 bullet made from a 22LR case. Trimmed to approx. 0.6 of an inch (8 grains weight). The rest is yer led. That should assuage the guilt.

7.5 grains AA#5, magnum primer, 55 grain FMJ.

I favor the .22 Hornet for such work. Using a 55 grain Lee Bator cast bullet (actual weight with gas check 52 grains, cast from cheap or free wheel weights, sized .226), 2gr. Bullseye= 1080fps, 2.6gr. PB= 1200fps, and 6gr. 2400= 1600+fps. As per others results, the most expensive component is the primer (CCI small pistol) but whereas others opt out of using gas checks I do use them which increases the per shot cost another 2.5 cents. But, I haven't had to buy lead in years so that balances things out. I'm blessed with a superb 26" barrel on a (German) single shot, with a gain twist that ends in 1-9" near as I can tell, but with a large throat hence the large diameter bullet. It will shoot the low velocity loads into an average of an inch at 50 yards, 10 shots, which is ok but not great. Where it really shines is with the 2400 load which provides groups nearly half as big. Not really .22LR performance, rather more on the order of a .22RF Magnum. All in all I'm quite happy with the Hornet and cast bullets for cheapness, accuracy, and squirrel killing ability.

Accuracy with the Lyman 45 grain 225438 isn't as good, for me. Accuracy with a 60 grain RCBS mold is good but not quite like the Bator. The 52 grainers seem to fall into a sweet spot for my rifle.

I laid in several hundred new cases for this rifle. So far I'm still working on the first hundred, and the rest are getting dusty on the shelf. Without going back through my log and adding them up, I think each case has been fired around 20 times each and still going strong with only a couple failures due to operator error at the loading bench.

That said, I've often pondered the viability of dramatically shortening the Hornet case into something like the .22 Squirrel, only shorter. Say, something to perfectly contain 2-3 grains Bullseye/Red Dot/Clays, and with a nice long neck per the Hornet to nicely hold long-ish bullets. I like a heavier .22 bullet for added wind cheating ability when shooting at what passes for long range with such rigs. A barrel twisted faster than the standard Hornet 1-14 or 1-16 would be wanted for it too for dealing with longer bullets. So many ideas, so little time/money!

Pardon the sideways shot...



The charge weight isn't quite accurate either though the rotor info is correct. I think it actually throws 5.6 or 5.7 grain of Lil'Gun. The charge was purely accidental but it seems to work very well with the Lyman 55 gas check bullet noted on the target. I did try using some 'softer' primers, but Lil'Gun in light loads doesn't seem to ignite well; CCI 450s are the ticket.

(BTW, this target fired at 50 yards.)

With decent .22 pellets costing 1.5-4 cents apiece, as opposed to 8-10 cents for .22s, a decent PCP airgun would pay for itself eventually, and knock the snot out of small game.

Good springers can be had for less, but they're trickier to shoot, can't be left cocked for long periods, and require "airgun scopes".

Here's a project you might take on Gary. Build a 25 ACP rifle. Go ahead! It'll be fun.

Have plans to try some trailboss in 223. Got a little CZ carbine loads of cheap brass and bullets. Data suggests a 55 gr at about 1075 with 4 grains of powder. Plan to play around with cast probable a little bit lighter weight. Figure I should end up with a cheap plinker somewhere between 22lr and mag levels. Not 22 lr rifle cheap. But cheap enough to be a fun high volume shooter. Also can keep my stash of 22lr intact.

When I was a young teenager, growing up in the sticks and knowing no one with any real knowledge about guns or reloading, my only source of info was whatever gun-related books the local library had in stock, and they were old then. I read everything I could get my hands on gun wise. I had a pretty vivid imagination too, so one day after probably reading an article on something like the development of the .357 Bain & Davis, I considered the posibilities. I wondered if I could be the first person to invent a necked-down .17/600 Nitro Express, and at the other extreme, why no one had built a .25 acp revolver or rifle?

Yet another factor is that with Trump's election, rimfire ammo is becoming abundant and cheaper. So it depends on whether dinking around with low-powered handloads is worth it, as opposed to just buying a bunch of rimfires.

Personally, my wife and I are going out this weekend to shoot up a bunch of rimfire ammo at ground squirrels, and are not really worried about how to replace it.

I tackled this a bit differently, using the .25-20. I found both a Marlin 1892 Classic and an original Stevens 44 that has a relined barrel. Need to revisit load development for both of them.

The Ruger #1B is a bit heavy for a .22 Hornet, IMO, but I've heard they usually shoot well. I have a .218 Bee in the same and it is quite accurate, at least with full power loads. The Bee is arguably a bit better designed case, but maybe not so great at rimfire equivalent loads.

Brass was a headache for both the Bee and .25-20, but at least now Hornady has starting selling Bee brass, which can be necked up to make the .25-20

My oddball answer to the question is an "0" buckshot loaded flush with the mouth of the case over 1 grain of Bullseye and shot out of a Martini Cadet. I dab a bit of liquid Alox on the buckshot after it's loaded into the case.

For me, anyway, the value of.22 rimfires is in the convenience, not the power level. A good supply of.22 rf means I can go out and burn up several hundred rounds in my.22 handguns or the grandkids can massacre tin cans all afternoon with their 1022's . Reloading little cases, casting little bullets, I have no time or interest in. Closest I ever came was developing an 1800 fps load for 63 grain Sierras in .222 for turkey/fur friendly purposes.

A custom rifle for the 5.5mm Velo Dog cartridge would precisely fit your criteria.

http://www.ammo-one.com/5-75VeloDog.html

25-20 with 3g of RedDot or 2.8 of W231 going by memory, and a 75grn speer. Or my full steam loads of 10.8 4198 75grn speer, or 11.8grn 4198 and 70grn blitzking. The first two loads sound like rimfire, but the last loads work just fine on rabbits and bigger stuff.

I also load a .223 with RedDot 6-7grns 50grn vmax for 22mag results.

257R 90grn hpbt Sierra 10.5-11grns RedDot duplicate 25-20 load levels. Slow enough that the bullet doesn't deform.


I do like the idea of a cut down Hornet case though. 50-55grn bullets at 1050-1400fps load range.

Hey Oddball, are you related to Oddjob?

I have had similar thoughts about doing the roundball thing and might well fiddle with that, but it does not present to the objective I ponder.

I get the sense of comments so far to be fair on topic of "alternatives" as framed by working with what's on hand. BTDT over and over and over again. Said previously that I'd not shot cast in the Hornet and that was incorrect. I fireform the K-Hornet with the Lyman 225438 and get respectable 100 yard groups and fair snappy velocity, ballpark 2300 fps, while using gas checks and Alox lube. It is the opposite direction from where I was looking at this. I mentioned the possibility of using jacketed bullets, but that that is not where I'll go with this, assuming I go anywhere at all. And yes, I've pondered the .25 ACP rifle, looked at the iterations of shortened Hornet cases, the .297-250 Rook (cases can be formed from Hornet brass) and worse.

Most of you know about my adventure with the .30 Sneezer, a project directed at a specific objective and one that was/is successful in my view. It was blooded recently, Dan 2 - Pigs 0. I fiddle with it in the never ending quest for, well, you know what I'm talking about, right? One of the outgrowths of the endeavor is recognition that with reduced charges/low load density, all loads/powders evaluated to date exhibit evidence of position sensitivity, this with load densities running approximately 35-75%. My holy grail has been to remain sub-sonic but the round certainly has the capacity to go faster, maybe up to around 1,400-1,600 fps with the 180 grain bullet. Likewise, the round if remarkably responsive to the different impulse provided by rifle and pistol primers, favoring the pistol primers by large margin. So, three brands of primers in both iterations, 2 different bullets in 3 different alloy combinations, and 12 different varieties of powder...they all work to get me to the minute of pig brain, but that is not where my thinking was oriented on this. Yes, I tried full cases of 3FG and 1.5 FG and duplex loads as well. Cleaning the suppressor in the dishwasher was the schizzle!

Today's review of .22 RF prices, specifically, Wolf MT shows prices of 6-17 cents/round + shipping, depending on source. Midway says it is discontinued? OK then, it isn't that much different from other price spreads. Don't know I'd call this representative of RF prices, but it is within the landscape. See this link: https://www.midwayusa.com/rimfire-ammunition/br?cid=7547

So back to the original quest. Seems to me there is some potential for this. A few years back Federal ran a lot of unloaded but primed RF brass on a special request and it was not a small lot of cases....that sold out pretty quick. There were a lot of cranks out there loading their own and getting impressive results, to include the use of BP in some cases. I suspect there is a viable market for this but am not settled on form. Market target? Why, cheap ol' cranky loons of course. Duhhhhhhhhh....

Dan

PS: I eschew the thought of heeled bullets by the way...

Bristoe,

I did essentially the same thing with #4 buckshot when experimenting with the .22 Hornet, though I squeezed them through a Lee .224 sizer. One grain of Red Dot got around 900 fps, but accuracy was only good enough for 25-yard shooting, and even then the shot needed to be sorted for uniformity before being sized.

I've some experience doing that with the .44 mag in a rifle and it worked well. They were paper patched, dunno how queer that sounds but you can blame it on Ross Seyfried. Single balls shot well out to 50 yards at velocity under the 2000-2100 fps realm. They stripped at 2400 fps. Double ball loads were the curiosity. Consistently made two respectable groups (~1.5"), one on the 10 ring, the other at 10 o'clock and about 3-4" out. Never quite figured that out.

I also did a few mouse fart loads, but the paper patching of a round ball is....tedious.

The accuracy of the buckshot load isn't nearly as good as with typical bullets, but it's decent out to 50 yards if you keep the velocity low,...and keeping the velocity low is necessary if you plan on eating things you shoot with them. For whatever reason, a .322" buckshot exhibits a surprising amount of disruption when fired from the little Martini at about 1900 fps.

At about 30 yards they'll explode a grapefruit. A couple of them virtually disappeared. I'd guess that a squirrel hit anywhere except the head would leave little for the cookpot after being hit by one.

Esoteric.

This is stuff I did in our basement when the folks were gone. Got a hold of some ~ .40 cal Minnie balls (conicals, Civil war era imitations)), where I don't remember, and loaded them in an emptied 410 shot shell. Have no idea of their weight but probably more than the three-inch shot load held.

I knew enough to know they had to fit through the choke of my H&R single shot but not much more.

Was amazed and then distressed that they penetrated my barrier of whatever and then went into the wall of the basement.

Gee,..now how do I fix this up? 😜🤔😀

My apologies for the side track.

Ah yes, round ball revolver loads

Speer used to publish round ball loads for the .44mag, using .433 dia round balls. Sometimes they worked okay, and made a plunk - whack at the indoor range, plunk for the discharge and whack as it hit the paper a 1/2 second later. Drew lots of curious stares

At one point I had a squib load, in the 6½" S&W .44 I was using. The ball stopped 1/2 way out the muzzle, which at least made it somewhat easier to grab & remove. Also filled the barrel with 1/2 burned Bullseye, which for the record, smells bad

I abandoned that project at that point. I notice Speer doesn't publish the loads any longer, either. It might be fun to revisit it with Trail Boss, Titegroup, or something else position insensitive.

George De Vries,

Your story reminds me of shooting half a Q-tip halfway through my hollow closet door from a .22 rifle. It was powered by a .22LR cartridge with the bullet pulled and the powder dumped out--just the priming. I had tacked a shoe box full of wadded newspaper(evidently not wadded tight enough) onto the closet door for a target. The half Q-tip penetrated the lid of the box, the wadded paper, the bottom of the box, and the outer plywood layer of the door. From a distance of eight feet, maybe. Like you, I was amazed and distressed.

Here you go. The flintlock version of a 22. With 32 caliber patched round balls it can be a 22 CB short to a 22 Magnum depending on powder charge.

I think the 38 special comes closest as a replacement. 3-4 gr of fast to medium fast powder under a 100-150 gr cast bullet makes for an outstanding small game load. Once fired brass is dirt cheap and plentiful and plenty of good molds available. Yes, more labor than just buying a box of 22's and takes up more room in your pocket, but it's a good option when you're looking for options.

Exquisite.

Reminds of trying to fireform a 218 mashburn bee case in that garage. It's been many years so I forgot the exact charge but around 5 gr of red dot under a 60 gr hollowpoint which I figured was enough to get the bullet out of the case when fired from my 10" contender. That it did, and it managed to penetrate three 2X4's, a 4X4 and when it hit the concrete floor it was still going fast enough to crater the concrete and expand to the size of a quarter.

Lesson learned, don't fire a projectile from a firearm unless you have a suitable backstop.

Thank you George.

Popped into Wally World for some WD 40 to spray down the Ranger and eased over to check out ammo. They had 1000 round boxes of Winchester 40gr 22lr for $50 and some change. Bought 2 leaving another 10. That's right at a nickel each.

More winning

Mart, that is way too simple as solutions go. Really.

Your Loony Friend,

Dan


PS: Nice flinter, very nice indeed! Did you notice the lock is on the wrong side?

Take a close look at the target and ammo. 4mm translates to .17 caliber on this side of the pond. Primer propelled only, ~800 fps out the muzzle....over the Chrony.

Actually I noticed the lock is on the correct side. Most people don't realize this but everyone is born right handed. Only the truly gifted among us recover from it to become correctly handed.

The Fall 2016 issue of Classic Arms Journal has an article by Hamilton Bowen on loading black-powder .22s, unfortunately using primed cases acquired by pulling regular .22s apart. The bullet mold he uses, and the crimping die might come in handy though, both from Old West Bullet Molds.

To this date, I stil don't know why someone hasn't taken the FN5.7 pistol round and started producing rifles for it.

Rock island arms makes the 22 TCM in a handy little bolt action. The 22 TCM is very similar to the 5.7. But everything the 22 TCM can do, can be done by most any 22 centerfire if you handload. And do it way cheaper.

Well, there is the P90, with up to a 16" barrel. Quite the critter to shoot. I was amazed while shooting the shorter, full-auto version, that the red-dot sight never left the target. Really fun to shoot, and I'd guess effective. Never shot anything but targets with it.

Re rimfire alternatives - dang, I just buy & shoot 22 and .17 ammo. Hasn't been a problem getting it, at decent prices, for a couple of years. Made it through the worst of the shortage via a large quantity I'd built up, buying a brick here and there over the years.

Guy

Custom 32 acp twisted for 70gr wadcutters to 90 gr pointed loaded to 1000 (or less ) fps in a T/C or repeater ( all it takes is $). Custom moulds of your choice. Cheap brass, cheap loads, as much as you want to spend on the rifle, cans, sights etc. Fun and cheap to plink with the ability to kill anything with head shots. It even has symmetry - 32 Automatic Crat Pacifier

Guy,

As I noted earlier in thread, my wife and I plan to shoot up a BUNCH of rimfire ammo today, including both Long Rifles and ,.17 HMR's. None of it broke the bank, and the only load "work up" occurred when trying different Long Rifles to see which shot most accurately. (So far I haven't ANY inaccurate .17 HMR ammo. In fact I shot one round each of three different kinds at a 100-yard target on Thursday, and they went into less than an inch.)

But you know, and I know, and most others know that making things easy isn't always the goal of rifle loonies. Instead much of our lives are spent making things complicated, apparently because for some reason we have more fun that way.

This includes Campfire threads.

Bristoe, your balls are ready for the ball, hey? What did you coat them with?

I'm thinking (odd this early in the morning) a short version of the .22 CCM would be a path if any brass was available. Admittedly, the .32 Auto Crat Pacifier has a certain, well, mebbe delete the Auto part and it's the opposite of PC on several levels, and that ain't a bad thing. I like a little bit of rim though. Hmmmm.....

Just back from putting the mic on a few things and find the following numbers:

Small pistol primer diameter - .175"
Large rifle primer diameter - .209"
.22 LR case diameter forward of the rim - .225"
.22 LR rim diameter - .273"

Yeah, it needs a rimmed case. If a fella rolls with the LRP/LPP you might get some snappy velocity with nothing more in the case, especially with round balls. Helluva tool for introducing youngsters into the world of shooting/reloading etc.

It gives a bit of a sense of tedium unless one owns a Dillon or other high volume production equipment. On top of that, went out yesterday and cast up a batch of 200 Lyman 225438 bullets, put the gas checks on (they are destined for the Hornet) and sized the little buggers. Didn't know that fingers keep growing like ears and noses. Thinking there is one helluva marketing niche here for Hornady and the swagged lead bullets they sell. That would be for the well off amongst us, otherwise we can cast and move on.

Mule Deer, sometimes you are remarkably perceptive.

-laffin'-

Breakin' the bank is secondary to occupying time and having certainty of availability. And world class precision. It isn't hard to equal or beat OTC rimfire ammo accuracy with handloads.

We get us another pinfire liberal in the Oval Office and this last run on ammo will look like a Sunday social.

I just put a drop of liquid alox on the buckshot after they were loaded into the case.

I guess I march to a different beat because I started playing with rimfire replacement loads 4 decades ago and will continue to shoot reduced Hornet loads as a preference over full tilt loads, even if .22RF prices fell to 1966 levels.

Don't get me wrong- this in addition to the rf ammo I love to shoot also.

I've had jacketed bullets stuck in the barrel of my Savage .22 H-P, and instead of pounding them out, I took a primed casing with a mild charge of a suitable powder (sans bullet), chambered it being careful to point the rifle slightly upward to prevent the powder from spilling out but not pointing skyward and then pulled the trigger.

Worked like a charm. It may or may not have been real good on the throat, but probably better than the damage to the rifling that would occur from pounding on a rod.


As for your original Q, I haven't done much playing around with this theory, but 5 grains of unique and a .228 cast bullet makes a great .22 H-P squib load. I'd imagine any other .224 centerfire and .225 or .226 cast bullet would be fine with 4-5 grains of unique. With .223 brass littered at every gun range, I doubt you'll ever run out of free brass if you went that route.

Don't let this go to your head, but the picture makes it look like you have brass balls.

Tinman, dat's risky bidness. Might be I'll try that next time though. It was 20 years back when I was poundin' the barrel.

Oh, for those long ago prices. I remember in 1957 the local harddware store was having their Washington's birthday sale(remember those) Winchester .22 Shorts at 25cents (regular price) but of one cent more, a second box.

During the mid 70s Shotgun News had someone listing 10,000 .22 Shorts for $100.

Ya, not knowing what to expect, I put on some safety glasses, turned my head and fired from the hip...but it just went "pop" real quietly like the other squib loads (with the same 5 grains of unique charge and same bullet that was stuck for that matter) and all was well. Same everything as the stuck load...just more room for the gas to expand in the chamber and a portion of the barrel, so the pressure was much lower.

I certainly wouldn't try that technique with a full charge of a regular powder, but it got that stuck bullet out easy peasy.

Off on another adventure a short while ago at the load bench and wound up doing some rearranging of misc. stuff. Came across a long forgotten bag of stuff that had two cartridges, a .25 ACP and .32 Short, a Colt cartridge if memory serves. Dang it....I might get in trouble yet.... Didn't know it but that little ACP has a bit of rim, about .020" over belt diameter.

So does the 32ACP. That's why you can shoot them in your 32 S&W Long handgun.

I am speaking out of ignorance here, but I'm wondering if this idea might have some use for me in regard to squirrel hunting. I've got a dandy Ruger American Predator in .223. I have an endless supply of .223 Rem brass. I've got 8 lbs of Universal Clays, but I could probably get a pound of something else for the task if needed.

What would be a good load for a 40 grain bullet driven at 22 lr or 22 Mag velocities?

Interesting stuff here; good to know perhaps for the next supply calamity, and fun to play around with. Also useful for those of us with nice rifles that don't get used much otherwise and could be put to use for small game. Honestly though, anyone that gets caught short again only has himself to blame.

Down here in the flatlands only rimfires are allowed for squirrels. And shotguns of course. Check your local game regs.

oops. Checked. You're right. Kentucky wants rimfire only. Drat.

It's still a good idea for blasting ammo. What's a good recipe?

12.5g IMR 4198 & 50g NBT

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11174113/1

I use 13.0g IMR 4198 & 55g Horn SP w/c @ 2.190" COAL. It shot 0.620" for 4-shots at 50 yards. That bullet at regular .223 speeds was a poor performer in my gun (1.93"-2.85" 4-shot groups @ 100 yards). You can find it at Midsouth Shooters Supply for about $23.50 per 250 or less than 10c a bullet.

Oh, and that's with a CCI 400 primer and FC brass. It clocks right around 2,100 fps which puts it square in the middle of the .22 WMR and the .22 Hornet. Not a bad place to be for a small game or plinking load.

Too much powder and too much lead, but it might be suitable for Jurassic Squills.





Just did a remeasure of that group, the numbers didn't look right. Think about .18". There are two pairs with the .12" spread, but widest spread is the larger number.

Had forgotten that thread, not a bad read at all. Didn't see any leopard print though.

Shaman, WAG on my part but you'll be looking at something around 5 gr for starter to find a ballpark load for .22 LR velocity. Probably less, but I'm disinclined to lead you down the path to stuck jacketed bullet in the hole. WMR velocity range will be more tractable. If you have a access to cast bullets of proper dimension, think 2-3 grains for starters.

Scale it down to .22, Dan, and you would be in high cotton. Exactly what I was opining about above.

Is what I'd like to do. Puzzle about a case that suits.

Dan,

Have you played with Trail Boss powder in any rifles yet. I just started using it in some handguns and am going to try it in some rifles for low power loads.

A wee bit with TB, found it functional but never quite hit a home run with it. Close friend of mine thinks it the best thing since peanut butter. My primary observation was the velocity spreads were large and accuracy so so.

gnoahhh, my own prejudice on the topic, but I would prefer a straight wall case and may accept a caliber larger than .22 before all is said and done. I blanch at the idea of a custom case hand crafted by gnomes. I'm guessing at the end of the day that I'd go larger caliber before necking a case down, but cannot deny either. .32 Wesson short might work, but brass is a conundrum, or .25 ACP. Could tweak that one with a little bit of choke in the case mouth and still have some capacity. Or no choke and just live with a 50-60 grain bullet. Recollection has it the .25 is a truish .25, something like .251" diameter, +/-...Yep, SAAMI sez so. Barrel in .251" groove is going to be a quest. .22-.25 AI Squill Smasher?

.32 Short Colt looks more groovy...if I'm going to neck it down.

Remington Golden Bullet 36gr .22 LR at Academy Sports is $28.99 for 525 rounds, with free shipping. That makes it about 5.5 cents per.

Thanks for the suggestions re: light .223 REMs. I may give that a try this summer.

Dan, any obscure sources for Velo Dog cases? Perhaps an old eccentric hermit someplace with a thousand vintage cases in a bag weighing down his collection of S&H Green Stamps?

Been looking for a case of VD without success. That doesn't sound right? Yeah, it would do very well and I'm sure they are out there somewhere. Imagining conversation with the custom crafters of dies, reamers and such....needing those things for a VD short.

Working this out is interesting and educational. Looking at alternatives without guardrails last night and my eyes settled on a shotgun primer I had just removed from an old Alcan 16 ga brass shell. One measurement led to another, and another and....hmmmmmmm.

Small rifle primer nominal diameter .175"
LRP .210"
Shotgun primer .228" on the forward end, .305" on the rim
Fired 22 brass
- case mouth ID ..205" (CCI Quiet, fired but the crimp still remains
- OD .224"
- rim OD .273"
- case length .605"

Standing by for a stroke of genius.....or just a stroke...

I've got the makings of a Rem #4 in 25-20. Seems a good choice to me. Wanted a 22 straight walled case, but 25-20 is old school cool too.

Are you sure a #4 Rolling Block has enough moxie to contain a .25-20? They were only made in rimfire chamberings, and not of the highest quality alloy steels at that. I guess if you kept handloads down to rimfire pressure levels you might get away with it, but what if/when it falls into the hands of a yahoo who tries to ratchet things up? Remember, it's only the pins that support the breech block and hammer that absorb the backthrust of the cartridge's discharge, and those pins are mighty small in a #4. If you tried that trick with even a #44 Stevens, which at least has a modicum of receiver support for the breech block (if fitted up properly), every critic with a conscience would advise against it.

Best to barrel it as a .22LR, stick to standard velocity ammo, and call it good.

It's NOT,.....and you just had some very good advice offered, by G.

GTC

Privi Partizan used to load the velo dog. I e-mailed their marketing dept. asking if there was a possibility they might produce it again noting there is no other source at this time.

Met a guy at the local trade school a few years back. He carried a velo dog revolver chambered to hold 8 rounds of 25ACP.

My bad, #2. Had a 1, 2, 4, and 6. Got confused.

OK then, only 20 lashes with a wet noodle.

That's better,.....

A SUPERB choice !

I always thought something like the old .25 Stevens with a CF primer would be the diggity for small stuff. But I may be prejudiced. Grand dad used one to kill hogs when I was 8 or 9 and some of his hogs ran over 500 pounds. Made quite an impression on a young kid.

A Stevens 44, in .25-20



reminds me I need to revisit load development with it

Have one of those in .25-20 SS that is a fair shooter, but all I've done with it is BP loads on the 100 yard line. Offhand. Good for about 8" groups of 10. I enjoy it and consider relining the barrel with the same chamber. Dunno I'd say I haven't looked at it in context of the discussion at hand.

From one day to the next I live with certainty that few original thoughts exist these days, and sure enough this road has already been paved.

Meet the .220 Rook

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.220_Rook

There's a couple bricks of them at the LGS. Want me to grab them for you? Boxes are a tad time worn, but the ammo should clean up ok.

The last original thought occurred in June, 1972, in an inflatable in the middle of the Niagara River.

Tag

That 44 is ugly.
You want my #2, let's trade.

The 25 Stevens deserves to live again, or a 25 -17WSM.

Dan,

Upon reading up on the Velo Dog yesterday I also came across the .221 Askins. That's even closer to what you are looking for then the Velo Dog, but considering it's based on the VD case it would be even more work/rare. The .221 Askins is the VD case cut down and the rim filed down to match the .22lr profile, but a CF cartridge...

All the work of obtaining and then modifying cases (not to mention the firearm) would undoubtedly negate any cost saving in making a CF .22lr...

But it is kind of neat.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

Worked for me in a Winchester 1892 rebored to .357 .....

Azar, thanks for that. Had not heard of that variant of the old V-D. Obviously a game changer.

Were I to stumble across an ample supply of Dog cases I'd roll with that. Anyone have any idea what a limited production run might cost and who would do it?

Quality Cartridge made Velo Dog brass a few years back. They don't currently list it at all though.

Thanks again, have phone, will call.

Each time I think of what I want next for a plinker I look over at the Marlin 1894 357 Mag and smile. Brass is everywhere and cheap. Powder is everywhere and at 5gr drops is cheap. Lead bullets are everywhere and 158's are cheap. Less than 12 cents per shot and I'm not melting lead. Oh yea.

Dan, there really isn't any viable competitor for the 22lr niche, that said a 22 hornet as a pair for the 22lr will pretty much cover whatever you are attempting to do...just don't bother chasing velocity with it like most do.

Top rifle is a Brno ZKW 465 in 22 Hornet, bottom is a 1958 Brno model 5 in 22lr...pretty much covers what I want without chasing my tail.

Of course, if the object is to chase your tail then a Martini Cadet in a 357 necked down to 224 would be a lot of fun...whole bucket loads in fact.

+1
That was a project of mine last summer, only I was doing the cast lead thing as well. The cool thing is that I can carry a handful of lead 125's for plinking and keep a few of my green powder-coated 158 grainers handy loaded with H110 and start knocking on 30-30 levels.

Not to mention the fun factor! And kids love it

As much fun as a .38 or .357 is when shooting plinker loads in a rifle, if searching for a .22 substitute those cartridges miss the point. Consumption of three times the powder and three times the amount of lead per shot is not a substitute (save perhaps in terms of the fun quotient). The closest we can get to Dan's request for a solution, in a current factory cartridge, is the .22 Hornet shooting home cast bullets over a pinch of pistol powder. Replacing cast bullets with jacketed stuff or store bought cast stuff in the Hornet defeats the purpose by increasing costs dramatically (relatively speaking).

By doing everything yourself (casting, loading, etc.), using scrounged lead that is free or virtually so, one can equal or beat the cost of average .22RF ammo-- the wrench in the works is the time spent doing it. If one views that as a hobby and treats it as one would any other handloading venture/experiment in chasing pure accuracy it makes total sense. If one's goal is to prepare plinking ammo for blasting tin cans, golf balls, rocks, and pine cones at 50 feet (wherein I bet 70% of RF ammo gets wasted in this country) then it's a losing proposition- save your time and buy a brick of Walmart .22's.

These days, there seems to be LESS time than more, for pursuing this particular grail.
Look, this whole small bore center fire stunt assumes a good, and continuing source of primers.
I'm going to assume the continuing availability of building supplies.
When (and if) the window of opportunity to do so re-opens, I intend to try fitting a Ram Set cartridge into a sleeve,.....the composition of which is as yet undefined. The sleeve has to obturate, stay with and seal itself to the base of the Ramset charge, and as well hold and align the cast projo correctly in the throat of the( also as yet undefined / blueprinted )chamber. Then there's the sticky wicket posed by extracting the spent, "case".
I can tell you that initial ventures with pest control shot loads in quarter bore have been VERY encouraging.
Been using poly tubing,....don't like it at all, and know that what's needed is a paper "sleeve" ,....were it nitrated, or otherwise impregnated and formulated to be consumed during the launch cycle,....so much the better. Option B. would be to have re-usable metalic "sleeves", and proportion one's chamber for that fire mission.
For rifled arms, I think the degree of ballistic uniformity that's an essential design parameter in the Ramset charges will be a real accuracy edge. 5 different power levels to choose from covers a lot of ground,....from subsonic levels and up.
....interesting muse, this one.

GTC

By doing everything yourself (casting, loading, etc.), using scrounged lead that is free or virtually so, one can equal or beat the cost of average .22RF ammo-- the wrench in the works is the time spent doing it. If one views that as a hobby and treats it as one would any other handloading venture/experiment in chasing pure accuracy it makes total sense. If one's goal is to prepare plinking ammo for blasting tin cans, golf balls, rocks, and pine cones at 50 feet (wherein I bet 70% of RF ammo gets wasted in this country) then it's a losing proposition- save your time and buy a brick of Walmart .22's.

Scrounged lead is hard to come by in these parts. The place that don't sell to a scrap dealer all seem to have somebody lined up. For my purpose, small game shooting with a Hornet, the price of jacket bullets isn't a problem. You can get a lot of bullets, especially if you wait for sales, for the price of a Lyman mold and handles, not to mention the added cost of non-scrounged lead. My favorite is the 46gr FP Speer made for the .218. Last ones I bought were about $.14 each. It's no great trick to get other ones for $.10 or so if you are patient. SPS seems to have lots of blem and overrun Varmageddons available.

I wouldn't try to get a jacketed slug down in the .22LR velocity range, but 2000 or so is good and should be enough for the odd turkey, fox, or 'yote.

....a full 1200 FPS OVER the velocity window we're trying to define with SDs and ESs in the single digits.

Not just accuracy,....EXTREME accuracy.

Gratifying to see the amount of interest in this quest, that's actually laying barely dormant, and just awaiting the right growing conditions.

GTC

Midsouth's .224 Varmint Nightmare bullets are always available at under 10 cents apiece, with the 40-grain hollow-points regularly priced at around 9 cents.

On the other hand, I just did an Internet search this week for .22 Long Rifle ammo, and found several brands available for under $30 a brick, including a couple around $25. It looks like the price is dropping, at least for now. I didn't buy any because I didn't need any, though it might have been a good investment if another buying panic occurs, for whatever reason. A bunch of shooters still refuse to buy ammo via the Internet, with some of them still haunting Wal-Marts.

Keith always said the .32 Long was very accurate and I think it was used in competition for a while. My limited use has always been favorable on stuff like crows and groundhogs.

Why not load it down to about 950 fps with a 98 grain SWC for suppressed use on stuff smaller than pigs?

YES !

.....let's here it for the .313 to .316" groove dia !

Based on recent evolutions and devolutions, I'm planning on assembling a Stevens 44 in one of the 32s,....the 32 S&W short being my own particular choice. Still looking for a Moison or SMLE barrel to turn down into the liner / insert, all the rest of the plunder's on site.

GTC

I must say this has been one of the more edifying threads to come along in while.

I too have a soft spot for .32 "bunny rifles" , and have a Stevens 44 too that may get turned into one (actually a 414 Armory with a bad bore), but I'm not ready to abandon .22rf's so it may get relined instead.

I have a Martini Cadet on the chopping block that I would love to have a half dozen interchangeable barrels made for: Hornet, 5.6x50R, .32 Long, .22 HiPower, .25-20, and .357 Max. But unless Daddy Warbucks writes me a big check that's not happening.

As for cheap/free lead, it's still out there. I was having new tires installed recently and came away with two 5 gallon buckets of wheelweights for $20/ bucket. Two weeks ago a friend laid 70 pounds of Linotype on me. All that translates into about 200 bazillion 50 grain .22 bullets. (All that on top of the roughly half ton of lead I already was sitting on.) Be persistent, think outside the box, and be ready to get your hands dirty, and the lead will find its way into your gun barrel.

Well, if we're looking for 22RF subs, then the logical choice for me came with the 357's I already load for, 3 revolvers. The 357 lever rifle made it easy to avoid the higher cost of 22's a couple years ago, if they could be found at all. How easy to run these through my Dillon 550 and shoot em all in any revolver and the lever. Easy peasy....and only dropping 5 grs. Not three times the powder charge. And let's not overlook the search for components is not a hunt at all.

I still got to shoot those 243 win 55's I loaded with Blue Dot.

This gets more interesting with each contribution and educational to boot. Having spent several days hopping around cyberspace on the quest I find several things of note. There is hardly a shooting forum out there that does not have substantial discussion in the archives on the topic. Will throw a couple of thoughts out for consideration and see where it leads.

Every cartridge serves a purpose, a niche sometimes larger here and smaller there. No need to illustrate it really, but there are a lot more .243 Winchesters afield than .460 Weatherbys, etc, etc. I've no doubt the .22 RF is the largest segment in production over the scope of the marketplace.

Gnoahhh just reiterated a valid point regarding the direction I'm headed....SV .22 RF equivalency that can be reloaded. I don't care necessarily that it be .22 caliber, but I do look at the playing field and see potential success defined by the ease by which something like this might hit the market. I note that a vast supply of .310" diameter buckshot is out there, and recognize the potential for folks to fiddle with such things such as a ".30 VD" roundball load.

When I did the cost calcs on the OP I was looking at current costs for available components and materials, AND the fact that such things might be available when other supplies were not, such as .22 RF ammo as recently experienced. I've not bought any .22 LR or Short ammo in years other than a chance purchase of Norma Tac about 3 years ago. I don't shoot it much and that is tempered by the recent shortages. I do shoot a lot however. That begs the question is such circumstances, what am I going to shoot? Availability notwithstanding, the cost of reloading anything has spiraled upward in recent years by significant degree. As example I've seen bullets suitable for the .416 Rigby "on sale" for $3/piece quite recently. Why bother with that when the dreaded CB short will cap a hog easy enough?

I have played the reduced load/cat sneeze game like most here and while it works, I've seldom seen it work with aplomb. Good enough for a pest? Yes. Good enough to brag about? Not so much or very often. Been there with the Hornet, .25-20 Win, .30-30, .38 Special, .44 Mag and so forth. Problem at hand for the most part, assuming that fine accuracy/precision is desired, is a complementary load density for the objectives at hand. There have been a number of small capacity .22 cartridges introduced in my life, some have been successful, most not so much. They have focused on velocity realms in the range of the .22 Hornet and upwards. Fairly stiff competition if one is going for a bit of snap in the velocity spectrum, no?

So, how does the world turn with .22 RF guns? Price a brick of .22 short ammo these days, or perhaps a brick of high quality LR match ammo. Uh...."gasp" comes to mind. Yesterday, on sale, CCI CB Shorts were available (for the first time in awhile) at around $12/box of 100. Ho Li Gasp'nmoan. Will it always be like this? Probably not. Do we need to be cornered like this in the future? No.

Here's a premise I've based my inquiry on: If anything is worth doing, it is worth doing correctly. That would mean putting all shots in the X-ring in a metaphorical sense. Nothing is perfect for all applications, but reasonable goals can be met or exceeded. Conceptually the .22 rimfire is a stroke of genius, but it has baggage. The heeled bullet is one aspect and high precision is a demanding pursuit. Mass production introduces variables which confound the pursuit, and if one is intent upon high precision with the cartridge, it is not cheap in any regard.

So, how does one segway into a new market niche with success? I'm not perfectly certain on this, but have a few thoughts. Accept for the moment that gun cranks are often capable of producing superior ammo to the manufacturer given and opportunity to do so. There are folks out there disassembling .22 LR ammo, rebuilding it and shooting remarkably well with both smokeless and black powder. It's a hobby pursuit, it is time consuming and something that stems from the "I can do better" mentality. What they are NOT doing is reinventing the wheel. Col. Askins' modification of the 5.75 VD into a spec .22 RF equivalent is an example. He won a national match in the end by doing so. He used a .22 RF gun that was slightly modified, converting it to CF configuration, case closed. He spent considerable effort in modifying the VD case to make it work, but in the end it worked within the framework of existing components and platforms.

I am not caliber allergic and have no vested interest in one over the other except as a matter of practicality. I was thinking ".224" bullets" when this started, but give it a thought or two. Do I/you want to invest the time in forming cases and modifying guns and so forth? Not so much. I'm looking for a straight path to create a reloadable .22 RF alternative for reasons previously stated. Here's what might work: A .22 LR equivalent case, CF primed, that uses SAAMI spec diameter bullets suitable for current production .22 RF arms....without the heel. We are talking a very minor excursion of dims alteration here, most in the brass wall thickness and bullet design. At the end of the day, Ruger, Remington, Winchester et all can manufacture arms with existing tooling and provide options which enable straightforward conversion. Ammo .22 RF spec dims? Put the CF bolt in your 10/22 and rock on. change the bolt in your Savage and go shoot something. Need bullets? Hornady has been selling swagged lead bullets all my life.

I can do it in my own way because I have a single shot rifle. Simple action alteration makes it optional for many. It is a marketing suggestion as much as anything. Sort of like having a revolver which shoots the LR and WMR, though it will shoot better because cartridge dims are compatible.

I'm doing a variation of this dance with the .30 Sneezer at present and it has been quite interesting....and rewarding. My per round costs are about in the 10-12 cents/round realm at present. I cast my bullets, form the brass, load and shoot. Yesterday it lead to a .233" group of 5. Second, third and forth place were less that .6" groups of 5. Pigs have died as a result.

Thanks for joining the discussion, I think the idea is worthy on large scale and certainly doable at a lower level. BTW, BACO has VD brass available....at about $2.50/case.

I may still do a long barrel 25ACP in a single shot that could serve as a 22RF alternative. Need to check off some other things before get to it, then find a platform to handle the semi rimed case.

Only issue there is .251 cal jacketed are hard to come by these days (although I have about 700 xtp's here) so casting would be in the future.


BTW, Dan, you are one of the few gents here that can fill a screen with text, and still make it coherent and readable.

Thank you. I suspect your challenge with the .251" groove will be finding a barrel long enough. Went down that trail about 5 years ago trying to restore a .297-250 Rook, could not find the tube anywhere. Mebbe fudge it and go to .257"???

Thinking a barrel from a 25 Stevens may do. I know where two complete Stevens tip ups in 25RF are at right now...

Here's a couple of rimfire alternatives. I played with some Trail Boss in my Browning 53 32-20. Definitely rabbit worthy. Groups shot at 25 yards and the rifle wears a Lyman 66 receiver sight.

Can advise that , while they may be absolutely FINE barrels, with many years of cast bullet shooting ahead of em'....shooting jacketed through them will be an unkind move,.....

GTC

Funny sidebar from a similar discussion elsewhere is the thought of reloading .22 RF in existing form. Kit in the market with all the bells and whistles, to include the chemistry to make priming compound. Not going to do that myself or encourage kids to that end, but it illustrates...something. Interest in the pursuit. I'll link it later, on the phone in a boat.

I've got a beat up Savage 23 that I can use. Looks like it was an old barn gun Sub Sonic hand loads are not much louder than a 22 RF.

It's my...ahem...backyard deer rifle.


Dan

http://22lrreloader.com/

Mart, you be havin' fun with that rig!

In the interest of clarity regarding my objectives, the price issue is but one part of the puzzle.

My earlier estimate was something just under 5 cents/round, loaded and ready to pop. That was based on costs of .03/primer, $2/# of lead and 1-2 grains of powder in the range of $30/#. I recognize the prices are variable based on supply source and in fact may present somewhat differently. As example, 1# bars of pure Pb from Rotometals on today's menu is $2.99. Yesterday a local friend purchased 100# of roofing lead (functional equivalent to pure Pb) for $60. Depending on source tin can run $10-20/#. It's ballpark estimating and no inclusion of energy costs or time are included. I suggest that might be a wash in some cases with shipping for more sophisticated supplies. I do not see any financial incentive to using more components than required. I do not suggest a larger caliber won't work, but it will certainly cost more. I can cast 149 bullets of .224 caliber and 44 grains lead with a pound of alloy...and that is significantly cheaper than on sale specials for jacketed bullets. Roughly, 2 loaded rounds for the cost of one jacketed bullet.

Availability is a central issue. Are primers available? Rimfire Ammo? The proposal adds redundancy and properly crafted I doubt it will be an expensive entry. For example, add a CF bolt to a 10/22, buy a mould and set of dies.

The stipulated velocity realm is subsonic. That is my choice and your whims may differ. No objection on my part to that point, but as previously stated, I've traveled the road with results below my acceptable level of performance. If I want .22 mag/.22 Hornet velocities I will load and shoot them. There are both advantages and disadvantages to either side of Mach 1. Which way you drift on that is likely as much an issue of what you do and where you do it thing than any other influence. With a velocity of 1050 fps my Sneezer bullet has a calculated BC in the high .300 range. It drops off quite a bit above supersonic velocity and that is the nature of that form of bullet with a flat base. It does not suffer mach buffet or changes in aerodynamic moments at sub velocities. So far, it is pretty much as accurate as anything I shoot.

After some batting around of the idea I'm growing more convinced that should it ever develop it will be a useful and popular niche if it can integrate into existing platforms, action style be damned. Yes, I can and you can, do it wild and enjoy it. I'm looking for an opportunity suitable to the masses.

One comment I recall from Hornady's manual on the .25 ACP was that reloading it "was not particularly rewarding" Typical powder charges were miniscule and the cases hard to handle.

Funny you should mention a .30-something. There is a .300 Rook here that needs shooting.



by accident I discovered I'd bought the rifle in this video:



I've loaded some 50 rounds with commercially available brass and bullets. I'm not terribly optimistic the bullets will go where aimed, as the Buffalo Bores are exactly .300 diameter. Need to slug the bore. If one could swage a 0 or 00 buck ball into a suitable bullet, seems it would be fairly cheap and faster than casting.

Not suggesting the .300 Rook case will be a good choice in the long term but maybe a variant of the .32-20, or a shortened .30 M1 carbine case, could be an economical case for such a round.

DD- If you're suggesting a commercially produced round, I would think that the .22 CCM would be the best starting point. Shorten the COL to fit through long rifle length actions and keep the pressures in the .22 RF levels and you could re-chamber existing RF rifles and modify / replace bolts for a center fire pin.

One problem that I encountered when I was developing RF equivalent loads for the .22 Hornet was the lack of availability of commercially cast .224 bullets. I can't see re-loadable .22 LR equivalent being a success without commercially available cheap bullets.

Gadfly, I have pondered the .22 CCM and it has merit on several levels. Point taken about the commercial availability of cast .22 bullets, it is a thin set. I'm thinking I could take the marketing rep for Hornady out, get him or her drunk and laid (in either order) and they could buy a new set of dies for their swaging machine....win/win in my opinion. Add a couple cents to the cost of bullets, but I'd tolerate it.

Tex, good luck with the Rook...and I'm jealous.

Swaged .224 bullets would be awesome. Apparently casting .224's is a bitch? Another advantage I see for a shortened CCM is the ability to use a carbide sizer. I bet I'm not the only one that hates lubing cases.

Speaking as a caster who regularly casts .22 bullets and doesn't feel handicapped doing so (it's not a bitch, in fact I think it's easier but that's me), I would welcome a cheap source of commercially swaged soft bullets. By cheap I mean cheap enough to make me feel comfortable spending money on them to abrogate the time/labor in casting them myself. I'm sitting on enough lead to sustain my shooting for the rest of my days, all of which cost me little or nothing, but what I'm valuing more and more as I get older is time.

If I were King (don't laugh, it could happen) I would decree that such .22 bullets be made available to everyone at low cost, along with Everlasting cases with powder capacity approximating .22LR brass. (An Everlasting case is/was a heavy duty case that didn't expand much, if any, under pressure of low-vel target loads, not requiring a trip through a sizing die, with a ledge built into the case below the mouth upon which the heel of the bullet rests when thumb seated.) Such a case would be a lot more substantial than a .22LR case- undoubtedly longer and bigger in diameter (and as such encompassing enough girth to support a primer, perhaps a new primer smaller than the current .175 diameter primers), but with a small internal volume sufficient to hold a pinch of Bullseye powder. I would issue an edict that gun chambers be cut to minimum dimensions to further guarantee that these Everlasting cases last forever. In the Royal Chambers we would use these guns with .22 roundballs and just the primer for propulsion, to shoot targets, Royal Rats, and serfs who were slow on their feet. Go ahead- elect me king. You're welcome.

An Everlasting case requires no loading tools other than a means to de- and re-cap, and a dipper with which to dispense powder into the case, and a tiny funnel. This isn't a new idea, they were extensively used by centerfire target shooters a century ago. Everything needed for a day of shooting contained in a cigar box. (Ten year old boy to perform the grunt work while you shoot, optional.)

Smilin' here, very well put!

.224" cast bullets. Even a caveman can do it....



King of the not so original idea,

DD

At least 95% of what you two are trying to accomplish can be done with a good PCP airgun. Good ones are nearly silent, available in (at least) .177, .22, .25, .30, .357, and .45 calibers and as accurate as any human can hold, in field positions certainly. My jury is still out on whether they're use on large game is "sporting" or not, but they're absolutely capable of taking stuff at least as big as turkeys cleanly. The better guns are beautifully engineered and will last a lifetime, at least.

On the down side, they're butt-ugly, to my eyes anyway, often heavy and unwieldy, and don't generate the soul-satisfying smoke and fire of firearms. They also lack the rich history of regular firearms, although I'm sure there's a bit of that as well, just not generally known.

None of this is meant to discourage the fun you guys are having, only to point out an option for those who want to send lead down range and are looking for options. Airguns can do that for them and only require the ability to write a check.

Pappy,

Some handloaders prefer making the process complicated, while at the same time talking out of the other side of their mouth about making things simpler.

I have a not-very-expensive .22 caliber break-action air-rifle that groups as well as my .22 Hornet cast-bullet handloads, which is to say pretty damn well. The last batch of "ammo" I bought for it cost less than $15 for 500, ready to shoot. But obviously it's not a repeater, and doesn't need powder or a primer, so is too simple.

I also already described how my cast .22 bullets are most accurate in my Hornet right out of the mold, not sized or gas-checked. All they require is rolling around in a little Lee Alox. They seat perfectly in fired, UNSIZED Hornet brass, and get around 1100 fps with 2 grains of Red Dot, and pressures are low enough the cases are essentially everlasting. With primer and powder they're about as cheap as the air-gun pellets. But apparently they're either too simple or too complicated, depending on the individual handloader's perspective.

Last night I came up with another idea that might solve the "problem" of casting bullets. Hopefully know more later today, after a trip to the local big city, a metropolis of 25,000.

I've read the article where you first told that story about a dozen times, and have a copy in the binder where I keep my Hornet data.

Honestly, for the number I need for the field, it's more cost-effective, and way more time-effective for me to use sale bullets for my reduced Hornet loads than to invest $100 or so in a mold and handles, not to mention scrounging or buying lead. I never ran short of .22s, and am well prepared for any future panics. I fully understand the blessings of tinkering, but sometimes I just want to shoot without a lot of fuss. Ain't getting any younger!

My airgun is an RWS 54 recoiless springer. I scoped it originally, but now it wears a circa 1968 Redfield receiver sight that fits the dovetail. I keep it in my basement and take a few offhand shots at a .22 trap placed at 10 yards when I go down there for other stuff (and remember the right pair of glasses!). Offhand, I shoot as well with the peep as I could with the scope.

Waiting eagerly to hear the results of your Big-City excursion.

Oh dear.............I'm remembering a plaque behind the desk of Kelly Johnson who founded the Lockheed Skunk Works and designed a couple of aircraft which are legend. It said, "SIMPLICATE!"

John, I flubbed up at the start and suggested I'd not shot cast from the Hornet, and corrected myself later. Lyman 225438's of #2 alloy for fireforming a K-Hornet. My 50 yard groups just reviewed are not unlike your report, though they were many shots dedicated to forming, not a measure of precision. 30 or so in 2" groups and though I don't consider that a test, it is a ballpark reference. I have one string of 5 on a target that measures just sub inch so I'd call that in line with your findings. While useful it does not vary that much from previous experience with other cartridges, nor rise to the level of utility and precision I have in mind. As example, from my T/C Contender, .22 CB shorts, the hog whacker got a check on zero after a through barrel cleaning.



It is only in recent weeks that I've seen CCI CB Shorts available in the marketplace, this after several years of zero availability. Most other styles of short ammo were likewise not available.

My Hornet is a Model 54 that had the chamber recut by Mr. Kilbourn. It is a beaut, but not what I'd think of as a work-a-day .22 rifle for pests, plinking and knock-around activities. Nor were other Hornets I've owned in times past.

Apologies tendered if this presents as trying to make a simple solution complicated, that is not my intent. It is merely a search for an alternative that is compatible with existing platforms and perhaps useful to those many shooters out there that survived the .22 RF shortage and associated higher costs of ammo then and now. I did not have this objective in mind when the discussion began, and recognize one can, to some degree, modify and/or download other cartridges with some success. That implies one off production and custom tools. I'm looking at complimentary utility and flexibility in a single production package at this point. Something the industry might find useful from a marketing perspective?

After my second cup of Joe today I went out to the load bench and did something new. Pulled out the 'stuff' and set about finding out for myself how the basic capacities and relevant dims compare for the LR and .25 ACP cases. Measured some capacities as well, at least to the best of my ability to contrive. I do not claim high statistical accuracy here, just ballpark numbers.

Case Capacity, fired CCI LR SV brass defined at 100% load density w/o charge compression

WW231 - 3.1 grains
Bullseye- 2.8 grains
Lil Gun - 3.9 grains

It was quite a bit more capacity than I anticipated. I assume the loads for factory production are in the 1 grain range but have not pulled bullets to weigh the charge(s). So, in some cases we get relatively small velocity spreads with low density of charge. That tweaks my curiosity a bit.

The .25 ACP and .22 LR case are within a very few thou of the same length. I suspect the internal volume with seated bullet is similar. Lyman 49 suggested loads for a 50 gr. bullet in the ACP are 1.0-1.4 grains for both WW231 and Bullseye, with max load velocity 750 fps +/- 2 fps

Anyway, that's my drivel this AM before a full dose of coffee. I heard a rumor when I was young that Orville and Wilbur thought building roads was a tedious exercise and did not get to the point of expeditious travel. Their thoughts had a profound impact on my life.

My choices are down to choosing .257 or .316 for groove dia,.......and will be taking everything that gnoahhh's fresh post on everlasting case design to heart.
.....hell, was pretty much there myself , as regarded small primer fitted cases.

GTC

Dan,

So you want a rimfire-power rifle that's really cheap to reload and provides close to benchrest accuracy, but the bullets have to be really cheap so you can match cheap .22 Long Rifle prices. Oh, and it can't be an airgun, because that would be too...what?

Sounds like you really want an expensive rifle project that will last until the end of your days, in order to produce reloads that MIGHT cost less than .22 rimfire ammo.

Dan,

I know not everyone has access to lead inexpensively, but I have a couple thousand pounds mixed between pure, WW and linotype. To date the most I've paid for any of it has been 10 cents a pound, which is what I paid for the linotype. Market price on lead was 11 cents that day (20+ years ago) and he rounded it down to 10s cent and had 984 pounds. Here's a break down based on what my components cost me, realizing the lead is almost cost free.

2.5 grains of Trail Boss comes to .008 (five pound container @ $116)
90 grain bullet @ 10 cents a pound = .001 - between the powder and the bullet we can round up to 1 cent
New Starline brass bought in a batch of 500 comes to 2 cents based on 10 loadings.
If one catches the S&B primers on sale at Cabelas, they can be had for 2 cents each, otherwise figure 4 cents.
My 32-20 load is costing between 5 and 7 cents a round.
22 LR locally is running between 7-10 cents a round.

I know the cheap lead skews the results but if a guy is diligent deals can be found on lead.

Mart

Sometimes I get the impression that some people are just, well, hostile, to small-game centerfire rifles and the efforts of some shooters to get/devise one.

"Center-fire rifles are for DEER, damn it. There's .22 LR and airguns for everything else. And quit trying to prove otherwise!"

Edited to spare all from a 12 chapter reply.

John, I'm nothing special in the shooting world, I have had varied experience just like everyone else here. I've watched the industry do some crazy things in the sense of marketing and product introduction, many of which have failed in short order. I don't know my idea is all that nifty, but I see a window of opportunity which would, in my opinion, be quite popular.

I'm way past the point of equating velocity and FPE to success in the shooting world. Out west you folks see for miles and miles, down here it's measured in feet in the swamps, sometimes yards but not all that often. Quiet precision is a major advantage. I learned that one morning as I shot 5 hogs with the Contender without taking a step. A 200# boar, 175# sow and three of her litter running about 30# each. #4 went 'wee-wee-wee' all the way home. The gun can shoot CF or RF, I like options when the supplies grow scarce.

I imagine that others would rejoice if simple conversions were available, if for no other reason that there are a lot of loonies out there and EVERY ONE of them has a .22 RF gun.

Have owned and loaded for too many rifles chambered for other small centerfires, including the .25-20 and .32-20, to be "hostile" to small centerfires that aren't .22's. I'm just wondering why spend what will probably be considerable money just to be able to handload cheaply--and the rifle probably will have to be pretty expensive in order to shoot super-accurately. Then there's the expense of a wildcat, which I know all too well.

But if I was bound and determined to create such a cartridge, I'd probably cut off the .22 Hornet case enough for minimal case capacity with .25-caliber bullets. None of my several references on wildcat rounds list such a creature, but it's probably been done already.

It would then be possible to get a Hornet rifle rebored to .25, whether for airgun pellets or .257 cast bullets. Both cases and rifles are pretty common, and reboring would be reasonably inexpensive.

Trailblazing always costs a lot, and not just in money.

I would be happy to see something like what Dan is proposing as something different, particularly if loading can be done at the shooting range without the need for a press and dies. Many a pleasant day I have spent at the range with but a single cartridge case, can of powder, primers (and the means to de- and re-cap), measure, and a box of cast bullets- be it with a single shot employing breech seating or a bolt gun with a carefully prepared cartridge case and carefully sized bullets. For me, carrying that to the next step would be with tiny cases and .22 bullets.

My rimfire shooting consists mostly of experimenting with various heavy(ish) rifles and paper targets. Tin cans, pebbles, and pine cones are pretty safe from me. I don't waste (much) ammo on plinking and a serious system the likes of what Dan is proposing is right down my alley. The bulk of the rimfire ammo I shoot runs well over $10/box, and the thought of cutting that cost in half (eminently do-able) is appealing- not to mention combining it with my other passions which include bullet casting and reloading.

Besides, I get bored easily and the thought of something new that's also practical excites me.

Dan,

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! How many other shooters do you know who'd be interested in such a conversion?

By the way, I don't hunt only in the wide-open West, and even there's plenty of use for quiet precision.

Well, hmmmm, all of them. Yankeetown is a curious place. There are none here in the community unarmed, and most of the gents are collectors. They are all handloaders. The mayor packs a heater. She is a very sweet gal. There's a little petite old gal that serves on the town council who might weigh 90# dripping wet. Hunts deer every year in Maine. With a Sux 700 .30-06.

Your question is valid, but I'm the wrong person to ask. We have more military arms here than Ft. Benning. The town next door is a bit younger in population and we have two gun stores. Then right there in the middle is Crackertown.

Hold my beer!

So are you thinking of a bolt-action rimfire with another centerfire bolt? Or perhaps a Contender carbine, so you can just flip the hammer face?

Am sure you're aware the Cooper .22 CCM didn't take over the shooting world, even with all the loonies around.

John, I'm old enough to never be 100% certain of anything.

The .22 CCM is, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of ill conceived marketing strategy. I thought as much when it was introduced and apparently the Gods agreed. It goes to the point of what I have suggested here, but on a level where competition is fierce. That population starts on the low end with the .22 WMR and wanders up to the .222 Rem maybe. My emotional reflex when I first saw it was "I already got a Hornet, and can cover a broader range of performance." I note as well the CCM was in the market well before the recent debacle with RF ammo transpired.

If inclined, take another look at the info related to the .221 Askins. My read on that was the ammo matched .22 LR dims, functioned thru an existing platform (Woodsman?) and required they trim rim diameter on the brass and modify the bolt. Very straightforward proposition for a qualified 'smith. If you have a spare bolt in original condition and add that to the travel box, you have the option of CF or RF shooting with the same arm. There are a great many rimfire guns out there of varied action designs that have easily removed bolts. The bolt actions obviously, a number of autos, leverguns and then there is the Contender cross dressing hammer selector. My own gets exercised with some frequency. Such thoughts evolved in the course of this discussion, but were not on the table at outset.

I guess and speculate, and know a few things I rely upon in the decisions made daily. Some of my crutches have my steering wheel.

I can load ammo at my convenience
I can and do load ammo for my rifles that exceed the performance of factory production ammo insofar as precision is relevant. Seriously guilty of loading jacketed bullets too.
I can and do make so good bullets from day to day, cast and swagged. They have in the past perforated the X-ring at 200 yards.
I am not alone or unique in regards to the preceeding.
It is frustrating to see the "Not in stock" banner whilst ammo shopping

What I'd like to see develop is an alternative that provides redundancy and the ability to rise above the issues recently experienced by the shooting public. There be a reason that commercial aircraft have more than one engine. At present I see the idea as potentially very well received and a good marketing option. It won't cause a lot of top tier engineering, nor will the package be expensive on the front end.

By the way, I've seen some of your close cover out west and know you don't spend your days wandering in the open deserts. It is....God's country. We have places down here were you can see 200, 300, or even out to 500 yards sometimes. They are called golf courses.

Finally, I attacked my stash of 225438 bullets and gas checks this morning. Was dismayed to find that when that bullet was designed and the gas check geometry settled, they didn't have enough vision to realize that with very minor change in dimension the gas check shank diameter would have been a slam dunk for mating with .22 RF brass as a heeled bullet. Dang it....mics at .208" as I recall. It's close though...recalling the case wall of .22 brass being .010". I can accept a heeled bullet and the CCM (maybe) or Velodog case could serve as prototype stock.

You should see me go after 3 cups of coffee...

Dan

My approach

Hammond Game Getter, comes in many different chamberings

Hammond Game Getter



He includes a swaging die so you can tap through buckshot to size to the appropriate diameter. That said, I used .310 diameter Hornady Muzzleloading Roundballs (.310 diameter). I didn't size them at all and they fit nicely in the case neck.

I tried initially on another target and a center hold put them at the bottom ring (about 1" low). New target with sight almost at top ring. 3 shots at 20 yards using Brown (power level 2)






Completely penetrated a pressure treated 1x4.






Wife said 'You didn't shoot the eye out', which I didn't with the 4th shot on target, but good enough.






It was a HOOT to play with.

Yup,....now we're back into the Building supplies sourcing,....the common "Ramset" charge.

As noted prior OUTSTANDING ballistic uniformity, on a shot to shot basis.

.....DIRT cheap, when properly sourced.

GTC

Dayum, that is cool stuff I never heard of....thanks.

Talked earlier about that variant of the pursuit and some of my most convenient success came from a round ball load in a .44 Mag case. Balls were something like .433" diameter and I sized them down to .430", loaded and shot. The sizing puts a wee belt on the ball which is easy to align. There were a couple of grains of Bullseye under them but they shot better than most of the cartridges explored. They weren't "cat sneeze" at all, more of a "hog fart".

I'm wondering...if I got another phone call in the cue. Awaiting one from Grand Island, NE at the moment.

damint now I have to have one of those.... this site is going to break me

Dan,

Yep, the Cooper cartridge's "marketing" was a flustercluck from the get-go, mostly because of Cooper himself. I got to know Cooper some in the couple of years before he departed the company, and the only reason Cooper rifles back then made any headway was their quality. It sure wasn't due to Dan Cooper's marketing skills, and certainly not his people skills, which were just about non-existent. One good example was the time he accused another company he partnered with on a gun-writer prairie dog shoot, where Cooper brought several rifles for field-testing. On the last evening one of the Cooper rifles couldn't be located right away, and he accused the other company of stealing it--but within a few minutes it was located in one of the SEVERAL trucks used to transport people to the shooting grounds. Even so, the Cooper cartridge just might have made it during the recent shortage, despite Mr. Cooper.

I'm quite familiar with the 225348, as as previously mentioned found the one's from my mold shot from my Ruger No. 1 mostly accurate as-cast, without sizing or a gas-check. But the heel of bullets from mine, cast from wheelweight lead, averages .220", indicating Lyman may have dinked with the design some.

If you'd like me to, I could mention your concept to a few people in the industry. With the low cost of some very accurate bolt-action rifles made today, it would be pretty easy to make one with two bolts for not much more--and with the volatility of American politics, another rimfire debacle is very possible.

Steelhead,

Thanks for that. That was neat to see. I enjoy learning new stuff about this hobby, even the esoteric stuff.

And as you see, it uses the Ramset blanks (I use the browns)

John, I would appreciate your discussion with such folks very much. Mentioned earlier that I await a call back from Hornady and may touch base with a few others, but it will not carry the weight of your thoughts/suggestions. Tell them if they do it, they will make money. Shazaam!

I guarantee it actually, I'll send them some of mine. I'm as lazy as anyone if I have an easy path before me.

D

Dan,

Will let you know what transpires!

Hi Scott,

I have a Hammond for the .308 Winchester, which works pretty well, especially in my Merkel single-shot. But I've never found accuracy to be what DigitalDan is looking for, in fact have found it about the same as yours, which is fine for 25-yard shooting on small game but not much more. In fact have never been able to do significantly better with buckshot in reduced loads in several cartridges, even after carefully sorting the shot for uniform weight and diameter.

What kind of groups do you get at 50? Or have you tried that far?

Are there any current sources for .22CCM brass? I did a quick search (on GB) and found some for a buck apiece- anything else out there?

A quick Google search for Ramset blanks turned up prices in the $8-10 range per 100. Is that the general "on the street" price for them? My thoughts immediately turned to having a rimfire single shot chambered for them with a standard .22 throat of say .225 or .226 (to utilize an as-cast soft bullet), and proceeding with the breech seating approach. Seat bullet in the throat/leade with an insertion tool- simple lever arrangement or a push tool- then insert case with powder (or Ramset cartridge), and shoot. (Oh that poor old Stevens 44 that keeps calling out to me for resurrection.) A quite common practice when single shot target rifles ruled the shooting ranges a century ago. Admittedly not for the rapid fire tin can plinker or the hunter stumbling around in the woods, necessarily.

Money no object: build a single shot .22 or .25 target rifle with false muzzle and muzzle load the bullet, using a Ramset cartridge for propulsion. Shades of H.M.Pope, Schoyen, et al!

No, I haven't tried it at 50. I'm guessing they'll drop pretty fast, I figure it is what it is, fun and quiet for short distances. I might give it a try at 50 to see.

Yeah, for what I use mine for (mostly whacking forest grouse and the occasional rabbit) the accuracy's fine, since they're almost always within 25-30 yards, and often much closer.

Gad Zooks! I knew this was coming, sure as sunrise.

I have one of those, a Barry Darr build with a .38-55 Basic, .40 caliber 350 gr greaser with a pointy nose and a false muzzle. Boom! It is a curiosity. It was built on a Highwall action, sports a Unertal celestial observatory and even though it can plink a flea on a squirrel's back, it is a little bit much for field craft.

I like your style.

All of this talk has made me curious about what kind of accuracy I can achieve with the buckshot load in the Martini if I really worked at it. I never considered the load to be anything but a quick and dirty way to shoot my Martinis.

Mine have always been excellent cast bullet rifles,...probably because of their extremely smooth, lazy twist barrels.

The problem I encountered early on with the load was the inability to get consistent ignition of the propellent. The 50 grain ball which is only slightly in contact with the rifling just doesn't create enough pressure to successfully use anything but small doses of the fastest handgun powder.

I tried small charges of Blue Dot in some once with the idea that a slower powder would start the ball down the bore less abruptly than a faster powder and might allow faster velocities without causing the ball to strip the rifling.

Didn't work. After a few rounds the front of the bench was covered with unburned flakes of Blue Dot.

I think I'll try Titewad next. I've had a lb rattling around in there for a while. The manufacturer says not to use it in anything but shotgun loads,....but you know,..

I've found that it works well with HBWC's in the .32 long.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/22-cooper-centerfire-magnum-cases-22ccm

Bristoe,

The tentative conclusion I came to with buckshot in "modern" rifles is the rifling twist is too much for fine accuracy, especially since buckshot tends to be not quite as uniform a round bullets. Generally I've used a big enough size to be able to swage them down just enough to get firm contact with the rifling.

One of the semi-successes was with Hornady swaged 00 buck in a Beretta Tomcat .32 ACP. Was trying to work up a cheap practice load, and 3.0 grains of Unique matched the velocity of the Speer factory load, and shot a little better. But it sure wasn't a "long range" load!

Bristoe,

Ah! I was going to suggest the next size up and swage it down. In my case it didn't help much but I didn't work with it. More or less figured the twist was too fast, like ball versus conicals in a muzzle loader. Be careful with Titewad, think Bullseye. Notes say Titewad is extremely position sensitive, in an 8mm x 57 "cat sneeze" round anyway.

Well, just in the spirit of things I'll throw in two bits on shooting balls in guns meant for conicals. Always figured that all the ways to skin that cat had not been explored, then I read a Seyfried article in Double Gun Journal wherein he paper patched a round ball. Oh Jesus.....

I started with a .433 Speer ball supply, picked up a custom .422 Lee push thru sizer.....why? Because that was my go to diameter for PP conicals and if I'm gonna...

It was tedious but educational. Did a WAG on the charge, set the ball(s) in a lightly flare case mouth, nudged them down to about half way in and did a mild taper crimp. Yes, they fed fine thru the 77/44. They went boom and crossed the Chrony at about 1800 fps as I recall. Saw no need to pursue the load further as the first group was in the 1.5" range at 50 yards. There was a hint there I did not pick up on right away. You see, I wet patch, dry and then finger lube PP rounds with a 50/50 Beeswax/Vaseline lube.

The next logical step was two balls stacked which equaled about 240 grains of lead. Rolled the dice and used a charge of what I dunno, probably 2400, that was the suggested start load for that bullet weight in one of the Lyman manuals. It was amazing. Two of the prettiest groups you ever wanted to see on the 50 yard line, one fairly centered and the other out to 10 o'clock about 3, 4, maybe 5". Both groups were in the 1.5" range, maybe 1.75". Velocity was in the same range as I recall, about 1800 fps.

I thought "Hot Dayum! I got a hog whacker!". So I did the next logical thing, loaded a single ball with what I thought was max load. It crossed the Chrony at 2400 fps and did not strike the target or backer. I have no idea where it went.

Subsequent to that I have shot .22 balls in the Hornet, .25 ball in the .25s and .310 balls in the thutty-thutty. They worked so-so to the point that I carried it. 3-4" 50 yards groups then it bored me. Time passed. Ancient defeats bubbled in the background. I purchased the Zimmer previously mentioned and the seller suggested that I grease my balls when I loaded.

"With what?"
"Whatever you want. I use SPG, just a wipe with the fingers and go."

He was right about that, not only on the Zimmer, but on other balls as well. It is not a Galactic scope of improvement, but definitely noticeable. Another free tip: It works on .22 RF ammo too.

Just about any style of lube will do the trick.


I say unto thee, "GREASE THINE OWN BALLS!"

It is glorious!

Dan

PS: Please note that most of my rifles are not as twisted as all y'all's. However, my weird little Zimmer which is stupid accurate, has a 1:7.5" twist. That's pretty odd for a ~100 year old gun.

Haven't figured out how he put 12 grooves in a .17 cal barrel either. They aren't shallow grooves. The bullet exits the barrel looking like the trimmed pine cone from hell. If you use a magnifying glass to look at it.

John (the wise?),

Have you recently spent 40 days in the desert eating grasshoppers?

That statement seems quite prophetic.

Geno

PS, any young folks reading this might just want to take note if you shoot rimfires

PPS, I would also appreciate you bending an ear or three as such a rifle might be very desirable for a guy like me who will be retiring to that infamous Left Coast state. The centerfire reloadable option will be a boon, assuming the availability of suitable light weight non-tox bullets to feed it. (Varmint grenades perhaps?)

See if you can figure out swagging bismuth.

Moi?

As if I NEED another project for my retirement?

Not a bad idea however.

Will I need an engineering degree? My biological training doesn't go too far along the lines of "exotic" metal forming.

Geno

Dan,

I've used SPG to lube all my balls--well, not all, but those in shooting experiments. Dunno if it helped, however, as I didn't compare results with dry balls.

Much less friction with sweaty balls.

If they ain't sweaty you ain't doing it right.

I wonder if a felt wad under the ball would help. Sabots come to mind too.

Felt wads are good stuff for a number of applications, card wads also. I've not tried it with balls, but ...

BP and flat base bullets get a card wad if loaded via cartridge or ramrod. The muzzle loaders get a lubed felt wad and card.

Smokeless lead from a straightwall case, greaser or paper patched get a card wad. Soft lead and paper patch prospers immensely from a card wad if you drive it hard. 300 grains/1600 fps from a .44 is hard. I suggest to you able bodied and competent casters, that if you have not tried paper patch it is a worthy endeavor. Take 90% of what you know about nekkid grease groove shooting/loading and stuff it in file 13.

Bottle neck cases get a hearty Hail Mary!

Don't use card/felt with a suppressor. Not evah!

A lubed felt wad might work with a round ball but you'll need to keep the powder off the lube. Mebbe a Dacron tuft betwixt would do that.

Never tried paper patching. Been threatening to for .30-30, .30-40, etc. but...

OK, I'm going to hijack my own thread briefly.

Paper patching is caveman country. Read: Not rocket science. Careful oversight of dims and patch material is wise. Paul Matthews worked up a good book on the topic..."The Paper Jacket".





It is a hunting load.



Back on topic: I just know I can beat this with my .22....CF



Apologies to those paying attention. The target above was erroneously reported elsewhere here on the 'Fire as 10 shots and that is incorrect. 5 shots is the number, verified from the log book. 50 yards, Rem 513S, Wolf MT. The X-ring is 3/8" diameter, you can figure the group dims.

That sounds suspiciously like engine room wisdom.

-Laffin'-

Shades of the Saturday Night Live "Schweddy Balls " spoof of National Public Radio. From 1998 when they were still funny. Worth a look if you don't remember it. .

I learned LONG ago to trust your snipes.

We (the black gang) make the best coffee, too.

GTC

Hats off to the all the Black Gang guys! I got to work in the boiler room of the Forrest Sherman (DD-931) for two weeks on a Middie summer training cruise. Some good guys down there. That was decades ago but I still remember that the watch supervisor was a First Class PO Finlayson (?).

Holy $hit, the temperature in some areas of the boiler room was 140 + if I remember correctly and even got to spend some time cleaning firesides (I believe that's what the term was). I looked like I had rolled around in someones fire pit afterwards.

I tried cast bullets in the hornet and just couldn't get good accuracy at the lower vol....if your thinking a load for small game to replace the 22lr ..their is a good thread on the Marlin forum on the 25-20....I have a cast load 85 gr bullet I think 1200 fps super accurate out of my 92 and is great for small game....biggest cost is the primer..

With the Lil'gun load I posted on page one, switching primers completely ruins the groups. I didn't make note of which primers I had shot some of the first groups with - I only knew they were silver. When I made another batch, I used Federal pistol primers thinking I had used a 'milder' type with the low charges in that load. My groups became very erratic so I tried the CCI 450s, the only other silver primer I was loading Hornet with. Those brought the groups back together again, something that was kind of a surprise given the small charge of powder involved. (The charge thrown was with the #5 rotor for the RCBS Little Dandy measure; the target says 5.8, but I believe the charge is actually running 5.6 or 5.7 grains.)

I'm sure I can fiddle with those loads even more and find additional improvements.

Un-huh....primers.....

Just yesterday I finished a phase of load development for the Sneezer that after some 500 or so rounds with various powders, primers, different alloys with two bullet styles, shenanigans related to case prep, neck tension exploration, and...more....I finally settled on a number of loads that will be go to standards for the cartridge for purposes of the mass slaughter of feral swine. One of the front runners is L'il Gun. Blue Dot gets high marks as well. Once I jacked up the load density sufficiently AND used the correct primer, IMR 4227 began to hum.

Getting past the emotion and reducing myself to the simpler statistics I came to the conclusion that Hell will freeze before I purchase another lot of Winchester SPP or SRP. Praised be unto Zeus that I have an M1 Carbine which is of a non-discriminatory mind and cares not that all the holes aren't touching.

That said, I was stirring the pot yesterday, looking for my .22 RF alternative and perhaps invented a new round. It is what I'll call the .444 Marlin CB Short. It is of the same case specs as the .444 except the case length is much shorter. A fella can use .44 Mag brass, or even .44 Spec. if inclined. Velocity is within reasonable range of the infamous CCI .22 CB Short, or high 600's thru upper 700's, mebbe pinchin' 800 a little. Bullet is a 320 grain cruiser I designed and Steve Brooks worked up a mould on. Double duty Hindenburg if you pistoleros are interested. It has been a special purpose success.



So yesterday I'm out there with vast diligence working on the .22 Alternative Improved and came up with this on the 50 yard line. Just a first jab and worthy of further examination.



My estimate of costs:

14 cents/bullet based on lead/tin cost of $3.00/$20.00/pound. That can be reduced as tin is not necessary at this performance range, so lets call it 13.5 cents per bullet.
3.5 cents/round for powder (Blue Dot) and 3 cents per primer.

So, it's about 20 cents per round for cast lead home loaded mayhem. Yes, it is twice the caliber and 8 times the weight, but I'm not sure it factors to greater deadlines in linear fashion. It does meet standards for precision however.

And yeah, I screwed up transcribing the data on the lower pair.

I need another cuppa Joe,

Dan

A slingshot and small rock is even less expensive and it's effective too!

Yer a funny fella.

I got lucky on the rimfire alternative. I used a small charge of green dot (I think) to form cases for my .218 mashburn bee. Just for the heck of it I shot them and accuracy was pretty decent. Like others, I found that it is just about on target if I use the top of the bottom vertical duplex post at 50 yards. I used hornady bee bullets with the big hollow points so i can tell them apart from full power loads. I think velocity is higher than .22 lr though. getting down close to 1100 fps might be tricky with my simple methods and jacketed bullets.

The .444 big bore squirrel blaster is a cool idea!

that 444 would be great for barking squirrels. barking with a 30-06 works fine so that big ole 444 punkin should set up a shock wave to beat all.
i tried barking once with my 45-70. aimed a smidgin high. no bark blast but plenty of squirrel mush.

I tried that a couple times with heavy artillery, with much the same results. Plus, it always gave me a slight case of the willies sending a big chunk of lead sailing off at an optimum trajectory for long distance unknown carnage.

Funny (?) thought about that "shot a bullet into the sky...." thing. When I first began to work up the bullet for the Sneezer and had a general form established, I began doing some calculations for BC via online resources.



It's 183.5 grains, SD of 276 and BC calculated at .386 or there abouts if started in the subsonic range of 1050 fps. I did not believe it frankly, but several different calculators opined similar numbers. Ballistics sez...............at 1000 yards it would lose about 250 fps velocity. The prolate nose form and flat base do well at those speeds. Drops are hysterical...

Did you figure out the barrel angle needed to achieve a 1000 yard hit?

No, but I know max depression angle before I shoot myself in the foot.

Rainy day and a good time to look under rocks for answers to puzzles on this topic. Heretic that I am, four long rifle cartridges were disassembled today for inspection and measurement. I learned a few things along the way.

Hey, last time I pulled a rimfire bullet I might have been 18 or so...



The victims and specs, such as they are, follow in LR order of the photo. I will post the mic'd diameter of the bullet heel but see no use in the information due to distortion from pulling same from crimped cases.


Old school Winchester EZXS in the 50 round yellow box: Heel - .180-.190"; case wall .008", charge weight 2.5 gr/~60% load density

CCI Quiet: Heel .198-.202", case wall .008", charge weight .55 gr

Federal Auto Match: Heel .204-.206", case wall .008", charge weight 1.4 gr.

CCI SV: Heel .197-.201:, case wall .008", charge weight 1.0 gr, Load Density ~40%

The bullet/case diameter for all but the CCI SV was .224". The CCI SV case was .224" and the bullet .2235"

Logic suggests the heel diameter prior to mutilation should be .208". Having no frame of reference I was somewhat amazed to see common aspects of some components. All bullets had a cupped base that was close to a full hemisphere in form. All cases were primed with what appeared to be the same light green priming mix despite the age of the Winchester sample. Sticker on the box said $1.29 and the bullets had converted their copper wash to a white powder fungus looking mess.

The exercise raises a question for which I have no answer. How did Col. Askins pull and reuse the bullets successfully for his .221 Askins? I define "successfully" as winning the championship at the match referenced previously. Did he sneak in a swage die we don't know about?

The array of powders found in the cartridges just amazes me. The dark powders at each end of the array are quite similar in appearance and ridiculously fine, almost a true powder, or dust like. The CCI Quiet powder looks a lot like a flake version of Trail Boss. Number 3 looks a bit like WW231 in form but the color is quite a bit darker than 231. Lots of graphite on #2 & #, otherwise not a hint of that in the other two.

I'll be back in a day or three with a sketch of what might serve the cause and we can have us a "design a new cartridge" contest. First prize is a plastic hula girl for the dash of your truck.

DD

Fifty years ago, when I was a young trooper with a steady hand, I did some exhibition shooting. I used a first generation Colt Trooper loaded thusly. .38 Special brass, with the flash hole drilled out, leaving more than enough shoulder to hold the primer. Push the unprimed case into a block of paraffin, Gulf Wax, available at grocery stores, if my memory is still good. This loads the projectile -think cookie cutter. Insert primer. No powder needed. You can target shoot with this. An aiming point above the target is required, as there is no recoil to speak of. A bullet trap of some kind is required. I used a box filled with magazines. It will penetrate drywall at 30-40 feet! Mark your case heads so that you don't mix them with the real stuff. Back then I filled the head stamp markings with red nail polish. There are more and better permanent markers available today.

I see no reason this would not work in straight wall chambered rifle. A top break single shot (TC Contender et al) might be ideal. The rifles might not tend to shoot so low.

I do not recall how often cleaning was required. I started the demonstration with a clean, lightly oiled bore. Most demonstrations involved less than fifteen rounds and the bore and chamber was cleaned immediately for duty ammunition.

I try to keep a good supply of .22 lr on hand. I don't think I dropped below 7000 rounds and I did not buy any from black marketers during the latest crunch. Pellet guns are a good alternative for I targets and plinking.

Not a writer, butI thought this might interest some.

Jack

Bill Jordan used to toss aspirin tablets out in front and smoke 'em from the hip with those wax bullets. A previous Mrs. Pappy saw him do it when she was a girl.

From the American Rifleman. A little more detail that Skeeter's version.



And this from the Casual Shooter.

A man after my own heart.

Thanks for putting that up, I had recalled he used the pulled bullets and this makes much more sense. Puzzling about the "reaming" of the case mouth....I'll not go down that path if only because it would have an deleterious effect on costs and maybe utility. If the ammo factories these days can make a heeled bullet sing, then I can too.

THAT's the attitude I like to see!

A sketch for consideration and a few things I puzzle about. It is not to scale, but the basic dims of the .22 LR case were filched from SAAMI. That said...



A few "issues" which I have no answer for and maybe one of you do.

- The rim is radiused on the rimfire ammo, but I doubt that building brass for a cf cartrige is amenable to that form. The SAAMI chamber spec. indicates a rim recess w/o radius and the one chamber I've looked at does not have a radiused rim recess. Anybody have any thoughts?

- The primer pocket depth above is a WAG based on dims from a .22 Hornet case and measurement of a CCI primer. My measurements were not precise due to a concave face in the primer pocket. The diameter is fairly solid however. Measurement of the primer yields .175" diameter and .118 length. The pocket mic's at .1725" diameter and .114" depth.

- I have no way to measure the web thickness accurately and do not know the industry standard. Crude measure on the Hornet brass suggests a ballpark of .070", but my eyes are skeptical. I pulled .050" web out of the air.

- Pocket wall thickness is a puzzle for me as well. My calcs suggest a .026" wall around the primer and I've no idea if that is good, bad or indifferent. The steering wheel states the first priority is safety, second is durability. Any insights would be appreciated.

Note the case capacity is reduced approximately 1/3. This was calculated on the assumption that the bullet heel is .125" long. Previous poking around puts capacity of the RF case around 3.0 grains of Bullseye and charges ranging from .55-2.5 grains of whatever they load RF ammo with. Were I a gambler I'd think the reduction of capacity would help reduce velocity spreads with handloads and currently available powders.

Anyway, that's my .02 worth today.

Dan

Geno

Well, a few more tidbits?

Took a look at a couple of fresh out of the mould 225438's of the Lyman persuasion and find the approximate diameter of the gas check shank with Lyman #2 alloy is ~ .215". So close, yet so far. Dang it....

Waiting for a call back from a custom brass maker to see if they want a piece of this with their fancy CNC equipment. If they are game I will start the ball rolling just to see how it works. It's only money.....

What are we going to name this thing?

When it comes to rolling ammo with small charges and speeds, I recall an article years ago in an issue of Shooting Times, I think, that attempted to reveal some of the factors that went into the the making of precision rimfire target ammo. As I recall it was Eley 22 LR ammo commonly used in biathlon competition. As I also recall they had worked out a couple of very significant factors which affected the accuracy of the finished rounds. One was the priming process , the distribution of the compound, and the consistency of the quantity. The other factor involved the effect of ambient conditions on the powder when the rounds were assembled, perhaps especially humidity. By controlling for these things, they had managed to create a product which earned a reputation for a higher degree of accuracy than other manufacturers had at the time.

Thankfully, Remington still maintains their line of Golden Bullet ammo as a baseline, so we can see how far the world of rimfire ammo has come.

God willing I will crush the Golden Bullet standard and threaten Ely enough to make them pay attention.

There be a bunch of puzzles in this journey that I guess only testing will resolve. Fortunately it won't be terribly expensive as I have one of those "plays both ways" T/C Contenders and a LR barrel won't break the bank. Yeah, I know, "You don't have a LR barrel!?!?" Never occurred I needed one until I started hanging out with you maniacs.

Will have to reacquaint myself with ancient style reloading techniques, mebbe a mould but the jury is still out on that. Pretty much hinges on whether the folks out in WY will want to play ball with making the brass. If anyone has first hand experience in having ANYONE make custom brass that led to a good conclusion, would appreciate an ID and/or phone number.

Well, in case the idea of casting such small bullets scares you, don't be. I bought my .225 mould before the big rimfire scare, when MidwayUSA offered a birthday discount (and moulds were yet in less scary price territory to begin with). But the mould has proven to be easy to work with and, while I haven only begun to tinker with loading tiny cast bullets, I can see where messing around with this stuff could become somewhat addictive. (I certainly like shooting small centerfire pip-squeak loads via single shot more than shooting rimfires singly loaded.

I don't have that phobia.



Issue at hand is the heeled bullet geometry. Maybe, might be, possibly a swage die and big hammer would serve the purpose? I have some experience with that an much larger calibers. Maybe I need a smaller hammer?

I have a smallish 30 caliber Lyman mould which has a heel and drops like a dream from the moulds. I bought a couple thousand 22 cal gas checks when I bought the 22 cal mould, so I have been using them, but I suspect I could probably forego them without any serious issues. Lots of stuff to play with. I guess I could be one of those odd-balls at the public range who attract other interesting oddballs. I wish I could get a 22 mould similar to that 30 cal mould, but perhaps that's overthinking things.

.22-2-45
.22 Alt (for alternative)
.22 Hot Dog (hey, I'm eating a hot dog right now)
.22 Wisp
.22 Zephyr
B-22

-laffin'-,,,,,,,B-22 has a ring, no?

.22 BB
.22 CB
.22 short
.22 long
.22 lr

Next in line would be the....

.22 CF - appeals to regular folks

or

22x15 CF - snooty American shooters

or

5.7X15 - for the Euro weenies

I had no idea we were trying to appeal to regular folks.

Loonies, certainly.

How'z about .22 O.A.? Obamy Antidote...

Given the inevitable velocity loss that Winter brings, with cast lubricated bullets, it would be CRAZY not to add in a "Chilly Dog" loading.

Ringman,.....you know this over pressure crap in and out,....care to comment.

gnohaaa,.....you've no IDEA how deep I had to scrounge into what passes for a reefer here,....looking for a frozen hot dog.
....on your head be it , if the dried up, singularly unappetizing freezer fossil does me in.

GTC

Sorry fellas; been casting .251 1--30 airgun pellets and Ive been glaring at a .225 Magma die and punch.

WTF is this thread in regards to?

Greasing thine own balls?

.22 Sniffle

I've been on vacation, and had time to think about this.

A single shot action, like an H&R with a .223 barrel, and a 7/16OD .251 liner which can be had for $6/inch puts me in the 25ACP alternative really easy. Slight mod with an extractor. but after that, its all head space and chambering.

If I want to get cute, a Remington No 4 with the Potterfield firing pin mod will do as well.

Methinks I just pessed me sharts laffin'.....I like.

RWE, that might just be entirely too simple. Just sayin'.

Weak, and silly perhaps,.....don't know about "cute",.....

GTC

Present it to the masses in a plebian platform such as the H&R break open, and let we loonies graft it into more elegant venues such as small Martinis, kiplaufs, LowWalls, etc.

For "the masses" to take to it will take a super-simple means to load for it as well as cheap factory ammo, not to mention another protracted shortage of .22 rimfire stocks. In the end I fear it'll boil down a handful of we old farts scattered across the country snubbing our noses at contemporary sensibilities. But, stranger things have happened.

Bread and circus edition.

Now we've come to a use for all those Rossi 22/410 combos.

Sleeve the 410, and pirate the 22LR ejector from the other barrel. A little file work, some chambering, and chaching.

I'm sure liking the idea of a thick walled, "everlasting" honker of a case, with an internal "shelf" whereupon a proper flat based bullet can settle in well aligned repose. Can't BELIEVE that DD is talking heeled bullets,...I see them as case killers, myself.
Seriously looking at .32 cal, in I.D. sleeved .38 cases,......silver soldering the sleeves in was the original thoughts, but I'm now looking at some super tough ceramic filled epoxy that should pack the gear , as far as assembling the case components.
.......once the sleeves are prototyped, tested, proven,.....I'd be looking for a small job shop running a CNC Swiss screw machine with bar feed,.....hopefully using off the shelf thick wall tube stock.

GTC

Would the epoxy be too brittle to allow for re-sizing the case?

Henry Single Shot.

The whole idea , and definition of an everlasting case is one that is formed or machined to final dimensions, and than NEVER touched with any sort of tool again. I've made them out of very economical, dreamy to machine 12L14 STEEL,.....the ONLY reason for sleeving an existing .32, or 38 BRASS case is that one can avail himself of standard SAAMI reamers, ....reground and piloted for the appropriate bore size,.....none of this high $$$$, wait forever, deal, from fella's that are already buried in work. I can tool post grind a .357 mag reamer in my little South Bend, to perfectly functional form, to pilot into a .32, .30, 28, 25.....whatever.
. For .25 cal, I'd LOVE to have a bucket .32 shorts to play with.
The "Epoxy" that I'm looking at is flying around in the vacuum of deep space right now, going through heating and cooling cycles that would boggle most minds,....you DON'T scoop it off the shelf down at Ace hardware.
As far as ductility and ability to expand and contract while maintaining bond strength, consider that there are many newer aircraft zooming about that have no rivets securing their main wing spars to the fuselage,.....they're GLUING them in.
GTC

Can't speak to the fear aspect.
Can damn sure guarantee that's a savvy read on this stunt.

GTC

I was advocating that around 20 pages back. I don't know about heeled bullets being a case killer though, as long as chamber dimensions and case dimensions are such that no sizing is required and loads are kept at a sane level.

.22 Whifflepoof?

I'm sure enjoying the banter about this idea, wish I was more of a "machinist" type in order to contribute along those lines.

Agree with the idea it may need to be available in an "affordable" rifle/revolver platform or it stands a very good chance of being another specialty item only loonies will take to.

Love the idea of the everlasting case.

The ability to come up with a relatively inexpensive "non-lead" commercially produced projectile would be a plus for those living in areas that require such for hunting on all lands (Cali soon) or on state managed lands (i.e. WA). If not commercially produced an alternative to cast lead that a regular guy could produce in his own shop. Those of us who hope to live longer than the next few election cycles may one day see an administration at the Fed level that will require non-tox on ALL fed public lands

The non-tox will not be an issue in the event of the demise of civilization or a "survival" situation............lead will serve fine in that case.

I'm sure glad there are dreamers in this world, and dreamers that work on their dreams are the best.

Geno

Musta' missed my endorsement of the everlasting hot on that post's heels,... "Dies, neck tensions, annealings,....and on and on,....phoee.

I get little 'nuff time to shoot, and don't need to be screwing around with brass, anymore than I have to.

GTC

Oh,.....and as far as the endless supply of confused naysayers ( beleive me they ABOUND ) using an elastomeric polymer as part of a Black Powder, or White Powder cartridge case component.....
.......witness the modern shotshell
Those worried about the heat that BP generates,..... reflect on the fact that the ablative tiles that shielded our space shuttles belly and wing under surfaces are GLUED on.
All these now ancient polymeric cats are outta' the bag ( and some of them SHOULD have remained DOD classified / top secret), everybody has the formulas, read the specs, take yer pick, pick up the phone and have em' drop shipped. One lifetime's not going to be enough to try em' all,
.....GTC

Are you okay with a .25 and a .32 Sniffle,....e.g. putting the handle on the whole series ?
It's got my vote .
The next size up, case capacity wise should be Muted Cough,....e.g. " .38 Muted Cough"

GTC

And to that end, why not a .25, .30, .35 variation on the theme? We may be re-inventing the wheel here, but I posit that that the cycle of history may well have come around to where the reasons for the demise of Everlasting cases/reloadable without tools heel bullet designs, etc. are no longer valid. I betcha that a lot more people would take up experimentation with handloading if they weren't faced with a staggering amount of equipment choices and voodoo espoused by we who practice the art. What I'm saying is the KISS Principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid) of the system we are talking about here may be an avenue by which the average Joe can dip his toes in the water of reloading. (Never forget that we handloaders remain in the distinct minority of shooters.)

Carry it far enough forward where such practices could generate powerful enough loads/cartridges sufficient for the once a year deer hunter to seriously consider it as an option.

There it is, Gary,....there it is .

GTC

Viva the Lee Loader!!!

Gentlemen,

I think all you fellas are on to something here,

A simple loading system, and perhaps with a higher energy "Trail Boss type" powder that will keep the neophyte safe from over/double loading, with cases that never wear out, in a few 'common" calibers and you all might have a winner.

Greg, I am one who has no problem with polymers/composites. If they can help with the everlasting case idea, so much the better. Ceramic compositions too, after all, some ceramic items have been around and still working for hundreds of years.

Thanks guys,

Geno

PS is this a Back to the Future deal?

Sounds like a fun hobby pursuit for those so inclined.
As for technology naysayers, look at all the high performance shotgun slugs out there using only 1980s/90s plastic technology. Take it a step into the 21st century with currently available materials.
As for "too much trouble", it's a hobby. There are still guys out there turning cases for 1850's designs on their mini lathes. Way "too much trouble", but it's their hobby.

Only if you remember Chuck Berry.

I like the Everlasting idea as well, but ask divine forgiveness for getting bogged down on dims and trying to make this functional. Couple of options occur to me for the .22 Sniffle. Even the most aggressive .22 RF loads are mild insofar as pressure goes and if the spec here is for "standard velocity" I would guess we are in the 15-17 KPSI range, or ballpark black powder/shotgun pressures. What I don't know is whether or not this will prompt case sizing IF the wall thickness is increased significantly, say to .015". A heel is a heel, the dims are not significant in my mind, so make it smaller and carry on. Next question, can something of this sort be manufactured in a manner consistent with current production methods? I dunno.

If so, I think it entirely possible that simple reloading tools could work. Will it need sizing after each load cycle? Will a very mild taper crimp or light bump with a roll crimp suffice to keep loaded ammo in one piece?

In a perfect world the concept could be utilized in a wide array of circumstance/cartridge/calibers ad nauseum....but first we need a launch...

D

Another possibility is synthetic cases. A friend of mine's been working on such a project for a couple of years now, obviously through a large corporation, and has gotten them to work very well in cartridges up to and including the .300 Winchester Magnum. Of course, making them would probably be more involved than turning brass, but otherwise they might be very viable. I'll ask him about it.

Hmmmm? , again.

I refer the reader back to my Arte Johnson you tube post.

Thanks JB,

Geno

PS, something the "average Geno" could make up on a reasonably priced 3D printer?

Anyone remember "trounds" from a few decades ago?

Had the opportunity to burn a few
........neat , but underwhelming in terms of accuracy, IIRC.

This starting to sound like that song "Age of Alternatives". Wait, I meant Aquarius....

Live, from Caveman Country,

Hippy Dan

Hey, you and Cross related? Neighbors? Maybe he's a hippy too? Seems he had the opportunity and maybe even inhaled?



As for the average Geno comment, I just wanted to add a personal touch to it, not wishing to use the anonymous "one could".

Perhaps these lyrics from the song pertain to you? Visions of a new cartridge?

Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation

Just keep the cranial wheels turning, the shooting public, at least the looniest of them, needs guys like "Hippy Dan".

Or else we'd still be shooting matchlocks!

Geno

PS, I continue to state that I neither will/can confirm nor deny whether or not I inhaled or had any other "revelation" type experiences. At least not on a public forum.

Maybe we should try to improve and perfect the Smith Carbine?

Variety of calibers, thick walled brass cases. Change from percussion to a firing pin.

I dunno that mere mortals should be allowed to play with such jewels.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of a Burnside.

Have a tentative source for brass. OMG, what have I done?

Yup,....I re-booted a coupla' those, for a shop that bought em'....collector's inheritance sale,....one was MINTY, and one a junkyard dog parts gun.

NICELY built,....good craftsmanship.

Replacing the"Gutta Percha" seal rings with silicone O-rings was a snap,.....the really beat up and rasty one shot better groups,....not that we were seeking BR performance.

DGW , or Track had Italian replica brass at the time, ....honestly can't say how good / bad it was.

GTC

Boys, I'm grateful for the dialog on this topic. When this started I had no expectation it would wind up like this but...

Mentioned above is a potential brass source I've located and based on conversation with them today I see no reason to expect anything other than brass compatible for the SAAMI .22 LR chamber. Subject to filling in another couple of blanks I'll move forward and find out where the Devil dwells in this project.

I'm going to need a mould and have no idea who might be willing to make something to duplicate the .22 LR bullet w/heel to my specs.

I'll be needing a shell holder for purposes of decapping and a seat die that incorporates a taper crimp to specs as of yet undeveloped. The seat die need not be Rockchucker compatible, but I would not mind that. I rather imagine the shell holder should be compatible to enable seating the primers. Otherwise, the forces required to load this little beast will not be great.

Open to suggestions for source and style at your convenience.

Last thought goes to the Everlasting case idea. I like it, but am going to focus on the RF substitute in the near term. If one of you wishes to pursue the idea, go for it! Sit back long enough and I might beat you to it.

Regards,

DD

I'm leaning towards the Everlasting case idea. I can meticulously turn a couple on my miniature lathe- if done right, a handful should last, well, forever. The stumbling block for me will be having a chamber reamer ground to accommodate the special case- I'm envisioning a thicker case than a .22LR with around 2grain Bullseye capacity max, case mouth reamed for a .225" 45 grain cast bullet to be a snug thumb seated fit, with a ledge for the base to rest upon. .225" throat, .224 barrel, perhaps a 1 1/2 degree included angle leade for heavier longer nosed bullets. A couple potential donor rifles stand ready to receive it- either a Martini Cadet or Stevens 44. The Stevens would be better adapted to breech seating if I want to get truly crazy with this.

A Pope-style de/re-capper would be tasty- a couple weekends in the shop could see that accomplished. A tiny powder dipper, once the best load is worked out, would round out the tools needed to manage the rifle. Slow shooting for sure, but what's time to a pig? Spend the day at the range with a cup of powder, box of primers, box of bullets, a single cartridge case, a loaf of bread, and thou beside me crying in the wilderness.

I guess I better work up a drawing and start looking for someone to make a chamber reamer. At the risk of putting the cart before the horse, I think in this instance I would be well advised to cut the chamber first and then turn the cases to be a snug custom fit.

Thinking some more about this, the Stevens 44 would be more conducive to a switch-barrel system due to its design, allowing me to employ Digital (Dangerous?) Dan's design in a package deal for added pleasure (insanity).

There's 3-4 44s parked in the corner here,.....some derelict, some really fresh.
I'll model a ".32 Short / 22" and a ".38 Short / 25" , and post pics, and dims, directly time allows
....might even venture towards a .25 / .22,....but don't like the flimsiness inherent there, as opposed to thicker wall everlasts.

Don't think Rockchucker's gonna have the raw power to seat those pure lead , or BPC alloy .22 bullets Dan,.....probly need something a lot bigger.



GTC

Got around to scoping/slugging the bore on the .300 Rook. Being a Martini action I used the Hawkeye from the muzzle. I first noted very deep lands & grooves. That was the good news. The occasional pits, and the loose spot in front of the chamber were the bad news

A 00 buckshot ball used as the slug:



Near as I can tell the groove dia is .297" or so.

I can't reach the chamber with the Hawkeye, so I need to find one of those flexible borescope thingys that works with an iPhone and see why the bore is loose in front of the chamber. I don't see any bulges in the barrel exterior, but something is amiss.

I really wanted to shoot it in the original chambering, but the bore wear certainly creates an opportunity to rebore it to something like a .32-20 or .38 Special

.32 Federal?

assuming this is directed this way.
,,,as good a platform , reamer modification start point,....might be as good a place as any.

The cartridge design I'm suggesting does NOT need a custom reamer, and in truth, I'd rather just as soon be putting a depth stop on a common, VERY affordable chucking reamer, and THEN dealing with concentric throating,....per normal , everyday, concentric lead bullet practice. Rim recesses can be cut with boring bars,....hell in ACCURATE rifles, they SHOULD be.

The WALL THICKNESS implied by the phrase "Everlasting" pretty much dismisses concerns about "taper" ....straight walls will work just ducky.

GTC

That one is a candidate as well, though I wonder if it will clean up completely going from .297 to .312.

Mornin' all,.....those dims called out,....over what length ,...e,g. .312 to .297 in .XXX " ?

The barrel's 26" or so. But it has some deep pits and a real loose spot in front of the chamber. Can't see it with the tools on hand.

Sounds like the perfect candidate for relining.

GTC

Dan,

I'm not positive but I believe NOE will do custom bullet molds. You can always reach out and ask.

http://noebulletmoulds.com/

Thanks, will give them a ring.

Actually, I think most mold makers will make a custom mold. However, you may need to provide the plans to them...

Custom is not the issue so much as bullet size. My favorite supplier does none under .30 caliber for example. Too, I prefer to pay a little more for quality than less for junk. Cheaper in the long run.

An old alternative:



Bruce

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Here is the whole magazine, so you can read the rest of the article:

https://gunsmagazine.com/1960issues/G0160.pdf

Bruce

Smiling here a bit. My Google-Foo is strong.

http://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/products

Heeled .22 40 grain double cavity mould, shell holder and crimp die....

Some real eye candy there, Dan,
That 60 gr Aguila catch your eye, by any chance ?

GTC

Well, I looked at it a bit but for now I'm not that twisted. Seeing an easier path or testing this at the moment and might save up for a proper barrel for that bullet down the road.

"The flying pencil"

Thank you, Bruce! That entire issue was gold. I was 4 months old when it was published and I pored over every page. Gonna try not to binge on that website, but got ideas for a couple projects from that one.

Best,

Dan

Guy named Lee Martin of single action pro boards site created cartridge called .257 Jackrabbit based on cutdown .25/20 case in order to work in Ruger Single-Six.

Probably larger than your goals but it sounds like it could be a CF reincarnation of Keith's pet .25 Rimfire. Cat Sneeze to supersonic potential in Single Shots & handguns.

I'd go softest alloy, EXTREME taper bore, maybe even Paradox with something of that length.

GTC

OK all you fellas, I got a challenge for your idle minds. I know the answer, but want to see if you can ferret this out.

You're sitting around idle and start a conversation here on the 'Fire about alternatives to .22 RF ammo. It leads you to consider a path to making standard .22 RF rifles...uh...flexible and capable of using CF ammo. Making them go both ways in a manner of speaking.

So you start rummaging around, pestering half the good fellas that dabble with making hardware, but there's a few unanswered questions related to specs. You see, when you start pulling RF bullets they get deformed and leave you making educated guesses. I hate guesses.

How does a fella remove a LR bullet from a loaded RF case without A) hurting himself and B) screwing up the bullet heel?

The clock is ticking wankers, what's your theory?

DD

Next question, and I know the answer to this as well.

How does one crimp a LR case after it's loaded, given a bullet and case O.D. of .224" on both?

Tick, tick, tick, tick.....

https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/22-reloader-kit

Haven't done any research on the subject, that is just the first thing that popped up.


Don't know if it's any good or not, but even if it ain't, it might give you ideas about what refinements need be done.

IIRC, the primed, charged, and bullet loosely fitted case runs through a set of from rolls,.....simultaneously getting crimped, and the bullet OD formed in concentricity with the body. in some cases a Pattern is even rolled into the bullet's waist.

GTC

The crimp trick is done by handloaders with a variation of the Lee Factory Crimp die (collet). Spoke with the fellow from Old West earlier today on that and a few other things. His crimp die is so configured and the shell holder is height adjustable to allow seating in short cases along with the LR version.

Thought you meant at the factowy.

Is that Old West deal the setup that Garbe was using ?

GTC

Dunno what that cowboy used, figured you were thinking factory. I gots to look at it from the handloader's perspective.

Not sure I want to travel the Old West path on this, mostly because I have zero experience with that style of crimp die and haven't a clue if they are capable of being delicate and that's all I think necessary. Pondering a slight of hand trick wherein the heel has a minor taper from base to seat index, maybe .002" of taper with the base just a bit over sized or something of that sort. Minor flare on the case mouth to enable seating then a very minor bump back to .224" OD on the case. Bullet will be .224" OD on the belt/drive band. Short version: Brass wall .008" x 2 = .016. Heel might be .209" at the base and .207" at the index.

I ponder such things in the darkness of ignorance.

Any idea how I extracted that bullet without deforming it?

Gotta confess I'm at a loss as to how you did it, DD. Was the case perfectly intact when done? Bullet perfectly un-marred? I've pried more than a few out in my life but it always resulted in one or the other being too mangled for re-use.

I have used a inertia puller with foam in the end that catches the bullet, but you probably just shot it straight up and caught it on the way down.

from a smoothbore. Don't want any rifling marks....

You guys are just too clever! -laffin'-

It wasn't quite straight up, I had to use my track shoes to get under it for the score.

OK, I give up. Tubing cutter, blade at mid point in the case and very gradual increase of cutting pressure. Turn a couple times, tweak the knob etc. NOT that knob....

After about 3-4 minutes the case broke in half and I began phase 2. Dumped the powder, picked up the small wire cutters, aka dykes and split the case up to about 1/16' shy of the bullet base. Peeled the two lobes back and pulled out the hacksaw. Couple or 12 back strokes to score the side of the case, 2 pair of needle nose pliers and the case mouth split as I rolled them apart. Bullet dropped out with a very minor nick on one side of the heel from the saw. 39.6 grains. .208" diameter on the heel, that being about .110" long.

Redneck engineering rocks...........

I am pleased to reveal my secrets and introduce you to the .22 Sniffler.



L-R: .22 BB Cap, 7mm neck expander, .22 Sniffler, .22 CB Short, .22 Fed Auto Match

Note the precision of the union between the bullet (WW .22 LR EZXS) and the Sniffler case. It will require a 16" twist. And now, the precision tools used to craft this stroke of genius. Please note the relative size of the round in comparison with the tools. It is proper that I pass along wisdom bestowed in years long gone by a competent gunsmith: "It's not the tools, it's the operator that counts."



Dan

PS: The neck expander required somewhat greater than moderate thumb pressure to open the case mouth sufficient to accept the bullet.

Had a hot MILF tell me the same thing a few years back. Never knew what she meant.



Did you need to crimp the bullet in place after seating it? I see no crimping tool.

Nah, no crimp. Left over parts stuck together for giggles. Was pleased to find there was a bit of neck tension however. Wouldn't hold together in a repeater, but it wouldn't be obvious to the casual observer. Funny part of this exercise is the imponderables that pop up, and in this case, an answer or two. the bullet confirmed my earlier estimates of compatible dims for bullet heel, brass thickness and case diameter.

Amazes me how uppity wenches can be from time to time.

Well, the wheels turn slowly, but it looks to me like this is starting to come together, albeit with a couple of twists and turns unexpected.

I mentioned previously that the priming compound mix for a variety of US manufactured ammo appeared to be very consistent. It presents as a greenish yellow mix that is not terribly uniform in application. Sort of swabbed in is the way it looks. This was common to three brands and 6 different styles of ammo. The stuff from Yurp was different. The Wolf is remarkably consistent in form and though it presents as an injected mass it's appearance is almost that of a card wad. The D-N ammo appears to have a card wad overlying the primer. If you look closely at the WW case on the right you will see a very small touch of bare brass, slightly off center. What is not obvious is the smearing around the case bottom and there was actually some primer mix in the case just below the bullet.



Also mentioned previously that US manufactured ammo was consistent in O.D. for bullet and case at .224", and case wall thickness. I took it upon myself to dissect several rounds of Wolf MT and had a couple of surprises as a result. In comparison, the US manufactured ammo used a thicker case wall (.008") than the Wolf (.007") and the former was of a noticeably more brittle alloy. Corresponding bullet heel dimensions were different as well with a nominal heel diameter of .211" (Wolf) vs. .208" (all US brands). This represents a difference of neck tension on one part, and is perhaps why all US ammo had slightly deformed heel bases. The most telling thing I notice in the comparison, is the bullets and charge. The geometry of the Wolf bullets is virtually flawless. The measurements are monotonously consistent, as is the bullet weight and powder charge of 40.0 and 1.0 grains, +/- ZERO. Such was not the case with US manufactured ammo, with charge variation of up to .1 grain and bullet weight variance of up to .4 grains in my sampling.

A question was posed previously about the difference of primer power between RF and CF ammo and based on my observations it is entirely possible the WOLF ammo has more priming compound in the case that will be found in a small pistol primer. A puzzle awaiting an answer in the field I'd think.

Short version, the Wolf answered a few questions for me and defined the path I'll take with this project.

Stay tuned...

Very interesting DD, but you are definitely a "looney".

Keep us posted.

Well........ordering a LR barrel for the Contender tomorrow. Hope you are all happy. Brass, bullet mould and dies in the wings.

Friend of mine said he'd pizz on my grave if I didn't name it after myself. So I'm using my Indian name, Cluster Fxxx and it will be known as the .22 CF.

George

Another mould arrived today with some babies.



.210"on the heel, looks to be .223" on the drive band. 40.5 grains.

Waiting for some brass.......

DD

During the rimfire shortage, I also looked at alternatives of how my 223rem could be used as substitute. Although I have not developed any handloads for it, I have laid in some reloading components nonetheless.

Also during the rimfire shortage, I look at handling 38special cast bullet in my revolver as cheaper alternative.

While not optimal, they were a possible alternative.

Well, the brass will be here in about 3 weeks. Bunnys are skeered....

Leomort, I'm thinking that most gun loonies have traveled that path; I certainly have. Problem I have with it is simple. Most CF guns take a step beyond the light and convenient world of RF guns and while they work, few of them work well due to small charges, large case capacity etc. I will admit freely that I've had a few exceptions, but they did not run cheap or easy.

Off the top of my head I know of a very few CF guns that will match the handiness of a Browning .22 Auto, Ruger 10/22 and that ilk. None can match the potential low cost of reloading a CF case for the platform. Closest I have is a .22 Hornet and .25-20 Winchester lever gun. The Hornet is an old Win 54 with a rather long Lyman Jr. Targetspot scope. Not the stuff of a walk about gun at all. Reloading the .25-20 with cast bullets and a couple or three grains of powder is about the best you can do cost wise and it will run about 6-8 cent/round depending on variables. At today's prices the components for a .22 RF substitute will cost about 1 cent each for bullet and powder; 2.5-3 cents each for a primer. The big bonus for everybody IF this works is that chronic .22 RF ammo shortages will never encumber handloaders again.

Cool stuff.

Of course, one could just stock up on rimfire with a lifetime supply, and enjoy life. But what's the fun in that?!?

I'm going to live 10,000 years and have a small garage.

You know what happens when a fella squeezes an Indian head nickle really hard?

DigitalDan,

Yes, I don't think a downloaded 223rem would be optimal but it was desperate times then. Plus back then,when you consider what was being charged for those Rem Bulk bullet buckets, I figure I take my chances with downloaded 23rem.

Glad those times are over for now.

Good luck with your project!

Barrel arrived today, awaiting brass.

When I have time, I am going to start at the beginning of this thread and read it through.. If for nothing else for the entertainment I get from Dan's literary talents. Plus I will learn something I'm sure. Right now I'm just marking the spot.

Well, I did skim through this tread. Learned a hell of a lot.
One of the most interested thread I have seen here at the fire. Very enjoyable.

Your on to something Dan.

For right now, I think I need 10k more CB longs/shorts.

I down to a few bricks of each.

Down to a brick and a half, pigs were starting to laugh at me. Then I sneezed on a few.

It always helps to keep them off balance.

For those who do not visit the cellar, I received the new Contender barrel from Bullberry a few days ago and gave it a test drive. Douglas blank, 15" twist, match chamber.. 20 yards for sight in at 50 for the groups. Boring as all get out but it sets a standard that is going to challenge my loading/casting skills.

First time ever that I've had a really good group with CCI SV.

I have had good luck with TAC. Might shoot some today. Tree rat heads for the target. Eyeballs in the crosshairs.

I have also. Funny thing about the groups, that would be the first match grade group I've shot with CCI SV....ever. Typically when I shoot TAC 1 out of 3-4 groups will have a flyer. The CCI is consistent in presenting patterns. I'm liking this barrel a lot.

I have been shooting CCI SV in auto's since my first Marlin 99C at age 12. The boxes are noisy in your pocket while sneaking up on vermin, but always did the job. Do not shoot rim fire auto rifles any more. The S&W 41 likes them. So does the Mark II. Fun factor is high and cheap.

I am glad you ended up with a good tube.

Onward into the valley of minutiae........



Brass arrived today from Rocky Mountain Cartridge LLC. Cursory examination indicates it is within specs. At least one of them fits the chamber.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread here at the 'fire that is more "true rifle loony" than this one.

Bravo!

Dan, I wonder if you could thumb seat a .22 air rifle pellet and propel it with just a primer for indoor practice?

Pretty sure that would work.

Dan
Loon Master
5th degree Black Belt.

Loon Master Dan,

This idea of yours and the whole thread are worthy of an Icelandic saga.

Geno

We will see what we see on the journey, no?

Up close inspection of dims gives rise to a problem. Case walls are a bit thick and diameter a bit small. Oops. Will get back on the hunt when this is sorted out. Dang it all. Talking only a few thou for each but...

Loon needs a different tune?

Inside or outside? I'm hazarding a guess at...................outside?

Squib load to fit it to your chamber? C.O.W. ? The pellet and primer combo someone mentioned above?

I have faith in my fellow denizen of the baser, deplorable thread, that loonyism will triumph...................... for the good of the world.

Geno

Oh, we will prevail, let there be no doubt. Neck OD is ~.220-.221, case wall ~.0095-.010. Spec was .224/.007 and the bullet heel is .210. Curious side of this is the mundane nature of the .22 RF belies the narrow scope of dimensional tolerances. Yep, there is some wiggle room, but not to the degree found in more conventional CF brass.

Cordial conversation with RMC, version 2.0 underway.

Well, time passes and courses change. RMC can KMA.

Day has been saved by Jimy here on the 'Fire and there is a new dawn on the horizon.



This discussion involved a bunch of loonies, but one of my favorite versions was Crossfireoops. I had promised him a supply of the bullets above before he passed and we had a lot of phone time discussing the ins and outs of this endeavor. Whether it flies or not is unknown at present, but in the event it does it will be known as the .22 GTC

Semper Swamp,

Dan

PS: More as this develops. Anyone got any load data for .22 RF rounds?

That caused my allergies to act up...

Thanks for doing that, Dan.

Back to the subject at hand, as Greg would have wanted, what did you wind up doing to solve the problem(s)?

When you said that O.D. was too small and brass too thick, first thing I thought of was a swage, much like a Lyman "M" die, to expand the case and still provide sufficient neck tension while filling the chamber.

From the pic, it looks as if you neck reamed them? That then begs the questions; Would a Lee-type collet crimp die work and, will they need to be re-sized?

Is RMC out as an option if another looney looks to duplicate this round?

Ed

Ed, the RMC brass was sufficiently out of spec so as to be unusable. Sent it back and was advised they were shutting down as of 10 Jan, so they have the brass and my cash. Left me with a bad attitude toward the company.

Stuff that just arrived was spot on spec wise and the results are in the picture. There be a few more steps ahead before determining this is a viable endeavor, but on assumption the preliminary tests are successful I will order up some more cases and get to work. Mentioned previously this is an exercise of dimensional details. They aren't all perfectly settled yet but are close enough to advance the project.

I believe that I shall bookmark this and am eagerly awaiting more results.

These bastids ripped you off....loose the wrath of the Gods!

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/8/18/reloading-22-long-rifle-a-new-option-for-competitors/

http://22lrreloader.com/

Crow, I looked at that earlier, thought it over and raised the bar. When all is said and done if I can't shoot some ragged hole groups with this set up I'll be disappointed.

Never doubted the outcome of your project. Just wanted to see a smoking crater.....

Only reason I threw it out was their mention of powder. I never thought of 700X as a potential candidate for reduced loads.


.

My imagination tells me that WW231, 700X, Bullseye will get a trial. If all else fails I have a supply of 3 fg and 4 fg.

Oddly enough I fiddled with some 3fg in the Sneezer awhile back. Numbers were quite good, particularly the ES. Full case of powder mildly compressed ran 950'ish fps. Cleaning the suppressor was a snap in the dishwasher.

I'm thinking your going to need a depriming tool, here some time, we can make one from a 3/16 drill blank., grind it to fit .08 hole. might have to go with 5/32 OD to go thru the sizing die, hell an 1/8 would work as short as it will need be, give it some thought. A simple 7/8-14 bolt cut off with a drilled and reamed hole would work as a holder with a set screw for adjustment.

I got the plague Friday, due to an overactive snot gland, I have snot coming outta my eyes this morning, a rush job due tomorrow, then we can work on something, ideas ?

Jimy, schedule is booked up thru Tuesday, will touch base with you Wed if you're feeling better.

DD

That's fine, I should run otta snot in a day or so, and its 15 degrees out so i won't be fishing this week.

Interesting, as of this morning, RMC's website shows that the company is for sale, but they are still taking orders...

I take it one of our members here stepped up and made the brass for you?

Is there anything else we members can do to assist in this endeavor? Other than raise a glass in a toast to you and your perseverance?

Ed

Yes,another member here from the Fire has pitched in. Brass from RMC was spec'd at .224" OD for the case with a .007" wall thickness. The provided .220//010" which is not compatible with a .210" heel on the bullet, that being fairly close to the norm and perfectly consistent with ammo from Europe which was my metric for the endeavor. US manufactured brass has a wall thickness of .008". The RMC rep I spoke with was named Cody and he told me when the order was returned back in December they were shutting down on 10 Jan.

Quite a fitting memorial. I do hope for success.

Thanks for keeping us all posted.

Geno

Moving forward with hopes of popping some caps tomorrow sometime.

The bullets are knurled with extreme precision and use of a pine flat and rolled with the edge of a medium flat file. The bullets are 30:1 alloy, .465" long and .2225-.223" diameter. Average weight is 40.1 grains for a sample of 30, extreme weight spread is .2 grains.



Next up is my magic lube, not yet patented. The components are common, but the ratio will remain highly classified, mostly because I have no idea what they are. Started out as a small puddle of melted SPG Lube in the plastic cup and I added graphite until my vision said That Looks About Right (TLAR). Not only does it retain the original texture, it now leaves one's fingers black as coal. It will be applied with diligence after the bullet is seated.



Conventional wisdom says to reduce loads 15% below max for starting. I dunno what max is, so...weighing three different brands of SV LR ammo powder charges I come up with 1.0 grains for Fed Automatch, Wolf MT and CCI SV. Will load one each of .7 and .8 grains (Bullseye/700X/Red Dot) and see what happens over the chrony. TLAR

A little dab of liquid alox might work too. I’ve used it lube some .22’s that tended to lead bores. Worked like a champ.

Alox is an option of course but who wants to do the simple? The SPG lube theory is fairly simple. Didn't want to wait for it to dry. A match head size dab was sufficient to lube 6 rounds with change left over. Put on a small patch and rolled the bullet, worked quite well.

Well, tomorrow will be the big day as they say.

Surprised at the load density, maybe 80% or so. Lower left is .8 grains of Red Dot, the other is .7 gr. The cases with Bullseye ran about 50% for the same charge. The ring you see inside the case is a very minor lip about as deep as the bullet heel.



Seated with finger pressure (firm), my version on the left and Wolf MT on the right.



My new babies prior to lubing.........

You need to turn them over and show a picture of the improved end.

Good as I got at the moment, most of them are kinda bashful.

Great thread. I am thoughly enjoying it.

Well, fears, consternation and befuddlement are behind me. Before the report on today's experience I want to relate some background on the learning curve.

Firstly, choreographing dimensions has be a challenge. Case in point would be the first round of brass cases which were not going to work regardless. There is a heeled bullet involved and this requires harmony on several levels. Another point goes to the very small rim as relates to a shell holder and the functions normally associated with the loading process. End of the day, it needs to chamber in the firearm, fire and extract normally. Bullets were knurled, seated by finger pressure and then lubed. Primer pockets were uniformed with an old Lyman tool intended for that purpose, removing a very small quantity of "dust". Though the shell holder pictured previously will work for removing spent primers, the tolerance for a full size bore hole to accommodate a primer ram left questionable margins, thus was not so engineered. Exercising my barbarian mindset I placed a primer on a robust piece of brass, inserted a brass ram in the case and pulled out the hammer. Tap, tap, tap, job done, and thinking cap still in place. It was easy, but not my preferred approach.

Next on the table is powder choice. In this case I took a shotgun approach with 3 styles of powder and made my best guess on a starting point. Bullseye, 700X and Red Dot, one shot each at .7 and .8 grains for initial evaluation. Did I say that being a test pilot is never boring?

Steve Brooks made the mould with his usual attention to specs and quality, form based on a Wolf MT bullet I forwarded for consideration. You have seen the photo above and it's fair to say he did that as well and anyone could, likely better is my guess. They are cast with 30:1 alloy at 775*F and quite literally rained from the mould without encouragement. I declined to request a grease groove, mostly because production RF ammo does not have one, and relies on a variety of strategies to include copper wash, graphite/wax, grease etc. I went the knurl and grease route with an open mind.

In the following image there are 5 groups, all shot at 20 yards. Precision was not expected with the CF rounds, this was an exercise of initial evaluation of function. Starting at the top left is a series of 5 Wolf MT used to verify zero and foul the barrel. The single outlier was the first shot thru a clean barrel. Average velocity was 1056 fps with an ES of 22. Subsequent shots were grouped by powder style and fired in order of increasing charge.

Bullseye
.7 grains - 791 fps
.8 grains - 836 fps

700X
.7 grains - 877 fps
.8 grains - 924 fps

Red Dot
.7 grains - 808 fps
.8 grains - 976 fps



After shooting the loads I saw no evidence of leading in any regard, but with intent to verify that fired 5 more rounds of Wolf MT at the center bull. Avg 1061, ES of 15 and one ragged hole made me smile. A patch thru the barrel after the session revealed powder residue but not a single spec of lead. Yes, I'm smiling.

Extraction was normal and after the fact examination tells me the cases can be reloaded without the use of size/crimp dies, though I'm uncertain of how many cycles will allow that.

Next up will come a series of 5 shot groups over the chrony with an eye on evaluating precision and a bit more velocity. My imagination tells me that something around .9-1.0 grains of powder will put this in the velocity realm of workaday match or subsonic production ammo. Likely .9 grains for the 700X and Red Dot, maybe 1.0 on the Bullseye.

On point of the powder, when I broke down the factory cases I found all with a very fine grained powder that resembled Bullseye in granulation, but with a different appearance, mostly a light green color for the Euro ammo and grey to black for US production. They were all very uniform at 1.0 grains of charge except the CCI Quiet which was .6 grains. I am reasonably certain I am using powders that are a bit slower in burn rate, but where the factory stuff was ballpark 50-60% load density, I found the Bullseye at about the same and the other powders at .8 grains to be about 80% load density. I don't know this will play on potential for precision or not, but found it somewhat interesting.

This is so simple a caveman can do it, though if you have 5 thumbs you might wind up mildly frustrated.

That is all, will be back after the next round.

DD

Thanks for the update. It's nice to see the progress this has made from a simple idea spinning in your noggin to actual handloads being tested...

So I'm kind of curious, what did they sound like, does the primer add a snap to the bang?

Jimy, I fired the first round from a naked barrel, the .7 grain Bullseye load and will characterize the report as somewhat milder than any of the standard velocity rounds. I don't think the primer influenced the report at all. The rest were fired thru a suppressor and the loudest sound was the "tink" on the backstop. Reason I tried the first one w/o the can was mostly the fact the bullet had not been previously fired and I thought it necessary to insure it did not tumble and wreck the baffles.

In prep for the next round I took a moment to check for any engraving on the bullet, with both a Wolf and CF round. I had not had occasion to shoot any of the Wolf ammo previously and found it has a .105" engraving trace, as do the bullets I've cast and shot with the new brass. Consistency is a marvelous thing! I may have a clue at this point what a tedious job it was crafting the brass but at this point I am favorably impressed....big time!

Expecting to run the next series Saturday morning with a focus on precision. Probably 5 groups of 3 as a minimum. Following that I'll move up to groups of 5 on the 50 yard line.

Never give up, never surrender!

Looks nice.

I'm in the market for a barrel !

On topic of barrels, I took a moment to check chamber on the 10/22 and the cases seat like they are greased. The T/C barrel was kluged up by Bullberry and has a match chamber, 1:15" twist, by Douglas. When a round is chambered the drive band is engraved by the rifling for .105", this with the CF ammo or Wolf MT. Difference at this point is I can remove the Wolf ammo intact due to the crimp....until I get the dies put together and can put a bit of crimp on the CF stuff that won't happen. Leaves the bullet in the barrel for sure. Not totally unexpected that.

Dies will probably be ready for pick up in a couple weeks.

Meanwhile, the next round of plinking is scheduled for Sunday if all else goes as planned.

And by the way, my calculations put case volume at .2cc on the .22 GTC and .27cc for the Wolf. In English that's .012 and .017 cubic inches respectively.

Any thoughts to making some lighter bullets, maybe turning some copper bullets of say 30-35 gr, maybe a +P load !

If that happens it will be down the road a ways. Short term I'm focused on getting this worked out as a functional alternative and I'm thinking it is off to a good start. One step at a time....

I'm thinking a pickett mold would be kind of sweet and easy.

Well, I went and did it. 6 loads, 3 shots each plus a scattering of factory RF ammo for giggles.

Ramped it up to .8 and .9 grains of the previously used powders and I am quite pleased. Except for my "buddy" who dropped by and shot the best group of the day with the .22 GTC. Same guy that looks at my first group and says "They're all on the paper." Geesh....

Will offer the data prior to the target post for your general information. I fired 8 groups on the paper. Two black crosses upper left (first) and right (last) were used for the strings of Wolf ammo.

20 Yards, double bag rest, chronograph 10' from muzzle. Wind light and variable, temp mid 60s

Wolf #1: Avg. 1062 fps, ES 62 (fouler string) .164" 5 shots
Wolf #2: Avg 1056 fps, ES 14, Sd 6 .318" 5 shots

.22 GTC, 3 shots same parameters as above. First 4 groups were fired with new brass, last 2 with once fired brass. WW SPP for all rounds, SPG/graphite lube, 30:1 alloy. First group with this ammo was fired at the 12 o'clock high target. Rest were fired in order, clockwise.

.8 grains Bullseye: Avg 903 fps, Sd 12, .445"
.9 grains.............: Avg 957 fps, Sd 24 .308"

.8 grains 700X:....... Avg 980 fps, Sd 11 .435"
.9 grains.................Avg 1018 fps, Sd 25 .730"

.8 grains Red Dot: Avg 944 fps, Sd 2, .422"
.9 grains.................Avg1002 fps, Sd 10, .400"

There was no leading encountered.




Picture of the fired brass and one w/o the primer. Note that a RF primed cartridge cannot be fired with a CF firing pin strike.



I need to cast some more bullets, mow the grass, drink some whiskey and promote general disorder, but will be back with more in about a week, maybe less.


DD
Charter Member*
Albino Aardvarks

*Founded 1966

A note on case prep for your perusal. It is straight forward but requires some ingenuity. Picture below illustrates the high tech tool used to clean the case interior and it seems fair effective. Primer pockets are cleaned as one would do for any CF round. Decapping is likewise done as usual, though one needs some diligence regarding decapping pin adjustment. The widget that holds the decap pin on the shaft will flare case mouths if pressed too deeply. I had enough foresight to examine the geometry before launching into that, glad I did.

Looking to make a priming device, not unlike the tools of old. meaning something not unlike the Lyman hand tool. Point is with these cases the rim is wee small and unlikely to survive conventional priming techniques. Per earlier dialog, I have placed a piece of brass flat stock on the vice anvil, set a primer in place, case positioned and used a brass rod to tap the case with a light hammer to finish it off. Easy, effective and tap, tap, tap.

Lot of learning curve on this project, simple ingenuity is key. I am at cycle 3 for loading with some of the brass and it still do not need to size the cases. Good thing that, I'm still working the die issue. When that is sorted out I will move forward to verification that the ammo will cycle thru a 10/22 w/o issue.



Other issues arise, such as a need for a case specific load block. A case charging funnel that is a bit more petite would be welcome, keeping my eyes open on that. Forget about throwing charges. The data provided earlier is clear that .1 grain of any of the powders used has significant impact on velocity. I use a powder trickler and note that it only takes a couple or three flakes of 700X or Red Dot to move the balance beam on my scale. The trickling process is quick enough, truly. The 18 rounds fired in the last cycle required about 30 minutes to load, including priming, charge, bullet seat and lube. With a couple of minor hiccups it only took 15 minutes to decap and clean the brass and that included invention of the steel wool/dowel cleaning tool.

It looks like the primers are getting hit hard enough, and dead center, hows the neck size holding up?

I should have some time this week to get a few more pieces done.

Thanks Jimy, so far neck size is OK. Need to chat with you briefly, will give a ring this afternoon or early eve.

Any time is good I have nothing important planed.
I just come in to eat lunch, its a great day to cut next years firewood !

Some Scotch Guard on dowel or shaft might be a better way to clean the brass. That stuff is great!

Dan,

Regarding the priming tool, the first image that popped into my mind was a modified version of a Dillon primer pocket swager crossed with a Forster type bench priming tool.

Place the deprimed case over a post that closely fits the ID of the case. That post, hinged at the rear ala the post of the Dillon swager, is mounted on the base, directly opposite of the priming plunger of the Forster type bench priming tool.

In operation, the post rotates down into position such that it aligns the base of the case with the priming plunger. Then, simply depressing the Forster Priming Tool handle inserts the primer.
Having an extension on the case post would allow it to be flipped up and the primed case lifted off and a fresh case to be placed on the post and the sequence begins again.

A shelf, or ledge, would need to be made to support the case at it's lowest point so as to properly align it with the primer plunger on the Forster side of the device.
On second thought, you could actually use the adjustable "legs" on the Forster tool to support the case and limit it's downward and side-to-side travel.

If you made the pivot for the post a threaded tube, you could mount the post portion and it's base to a common platform that the Forster type tool is mounted and adjust the clearance between the base of the cartridge case and the face of the Forster Tool by turning the post in or out of the threaded pivot.
Either a jam nut on the threaded post or a set screw assembly placed in the side of the threaded tube would allow for that clearance to be set and maintained.

I hope I've made it at least as clear as mud... As I said, I need to draw it out.

Jimy, thank you for chipping in on Dan's Great Adventure!

Ed

Ed, your idea would work I'm quite certain, but I'm pursuing one of two approaches, first being a simple toggle tool design somewhat similar to the Lyman 310, or perhaps adapting a die with a ram for the press that will function with the Rockchucker in the same spirit at the hammer theory. I've no doubt what you described would work, but the quick and dirty appeals for this project.

One of the points of this is to make this a marketable concept and I'm thinking that low entry price would be a key to success. Time will tell I suppose.

Dan

PS: I just learned something else. Spell Checker thinks "Rockchucker" should be "Cockchafer". I never heard of that word before.

C'mon, someone needs to pick up that ball and run with it!

Dan, the 310 type tool would be really handy at the range, much like the Pope de-capper I carry for my Sharps.

For the Rockchucker, I could see a 7/8x14 Die body with a spindle with O.D. of the I.D. of the case, such as a neck expander that protrudes below the die body. The ram has a shellholder-type adapter with a shallow cavity which holds a single primer.
That adapter has a tiny raised ring of steel, centered in it, just deep enough to keep the primer centered and narrow enough to slip into the gap between the radius of the primer edge and the edge of the primer pocket. That would allow the primer to be seated flush with the case head.
The adapter would look very similar to the RCBS primer pocket swage, except the swage would be machined down to create that ring.

You slip the case over the spindle, raise the ram which contains the single primer adapter and primer, seat the primer, lower the ram, pull the primed case (it may just drop off if tolerances are loose enough) off and prepare for the next case & primer.

It could be very inexpensive, all you would need was the adapter, a spindle of the proper diameter, and any 7/8x14 die body to hold the spindle.

Ed

Thinking we are on the same page, or close enough. Appreciate your thoughts on this, truly.

For a case that dainty I'm picturing a pair of pliers altered thusly: a pivot pin installed in one jaw with a brass rod dangling from it (that conforms to the internal dimensions of the case), slip the deprimed case over the rod, place a primer on it, and close the pliers against the flat machined face of the opposing jaw. You could alter two pliers, the other one with a decapping pin instead of a blunt "pusher" (a short pin sticking out of an identical "pusher"?)- place the fired case over the pin until you feel it engage the flash hole, then close the pliers against the opposing jaw which would be machined to receive the case head with a hole sufficient to allow the spent primer to fall through.

The only real trick would be designing it so the flat anvil surface would end up being faced flat against the case head when the pliers closes into contact.

A spare set of Lyman mold handles might be a viable alternative to the pliers. The "jaws" of one of them lie parallel to each other when they're what, 1 1/4" apart or so?

A sketch of these ideas might , clarify and help produce a working model.

I'm no artist, but I'll take a shot at it.

Ed

Made a rough sketch of my idea. Perhaps handier for the guy wanting to load at the shooting bench? Based on using bullet mold handles.

Well done sir! Very much in line with my thoughts.

Will say at this point that it occurred a very few days ago that the loading process for this does not require high tech. Despite the dance done with dims the case is tiny and I think manageable with hands as well as a press. Score for the home team?

I'm curious as to how testing will work out with dipped powder charges. (Or did I miss something?) I can see how weighing each charge can be a benefit with such minuscule charges, but my interest would be mainly for range use and shudder to think of managing a scale outdoors if it's even a little breezy. Tried it a few times and gave it up. A handful of cases, box of bullets, primers, powder, capping tools, funnel, and loading block would fit in a cigar box and provide for a day's worth of loafing at the range.

I would not say it won't work, but if you review the data posted with the targets you will see that .1 grains variation has significant influence on velocity. Have not tried Lord Black yet.

Here is my idea for the press mounted tool set.

The "base" just snaps into the press ram just as you would a normal shellholder. I took the general dims of the base from a couple of shellholders I have here.

The "cup" that holds the primer is only 0.003" deep while the "post" that the "cup" is bored in, is 0.005" above the main part of the base, giving a 0.002" below flush primer seating depth.

The rim of the cup could be tapered in cross-section to allow it to slip between the primer cup and the primer pocket rim.

I think you could take one of the RCBS small primer pocket swagers and mill that cup right into it. Somebody around here must have a spare one they would turn loose of.





Ed

Haha, great minds think alike- we both have the noses of our calipers intruding into the pics.

With Lord MacAllan egging me on, I just spent the last 2 hours re-reading this entire thread (with time out to order some esoteric gun parts). It beat anything on TV all to hell, and got my juices flowing again regarding this project. I'll unabashedly follow Dan's lead and go with a .22 rifle set up for both rimfire and centerfire. I hit upon using my Springfield M2 as the vehicle: spare bolts are available, as are one piece firing pins. The pins and forward (non-rotating) halves of the bolts are easily converted to centerfire, and the locking lug on the rear (rotating) halves are adjustable for headspace making a matchup between rim thickness, existing chamber, and bolt face a snap. The extra bits weren't exactly cheap, but MacAllan scotch is a great lubricant for rational (irrational?) decision making. In the end, its utility as a rimfire rifle won't be compromised in the least and those extra bits will look good under glass if the project fizzles.

Digital Don't-Tell-Me-It-Can't-Be-Done Dan deserves a "Laurel, and Hardy handshake" for his work on this project.

Am blushing a bit here.

Know where I'd like this to go, dunno if it will get there but I'm giving it the old Air Cav second effort. Has potential to lure a great many folks into reloading, casting and fun with the kids IMHO. Hoping some of the industry will see their way clear to make it happen.

Imagine a 10/22 that has a spare bolt that makes it immune to disruption of ammo supply. And variations of the theme that just recently passed.

Imagine how deftly your wife can load ammo compared you! And your kids too.

Also, there is such a thing as "parallel pliers" that could be modified to work.

https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=parallel+pliers

Parallel Pliers, Flat Nose, 5-1/2 Inches | PLR-866.00

I'll second that! (Just so long as he doesn't "whip this out", that is. )

Dan, this is a great idea that certainly has potential!

I have a factory Contender Carbine barrel in .22lr Match just waiting to be exercised.

Ed

Ed, funny thing about the idea is it wasn't on my mind when I started the thread. Where the concept stands at present was the distilled essence of the conversation here. Somewhere about mid way the conversation as I recall it occurred this might be something of interest and practical utility that crossed many lines in the shooting world. Old man Time will be the judge, but I am hopeful.

Tip of the hat to the Colonel, who by my reckoning was well ahead of his time.

This is my first post here. I stumbled across this topic in a web search and it caught my attention.

While I was reading this thread, I wondered if the full length die and shell plate, linked below, would fit the bill? The shell plate doesn't have a hole in the base, but that could be remedied with a drill press or lathe. Then you could use a standard press and a universal decapping die to deprime and full length size if needed with the included die. I don't see that priming with a standard hand priming tool would be that hard. Get a .25 ACP shell holder and go to town. The .25 ACP has same rim thickness as the 22lr and 0.024 rim diameter difference.

http://www.brassworldeshop.com/sharpshooterresizingdiefor22lr22longand22shortwithshellholder.aspx

My next question is, have you thought about trying Universal Clays as a powder?

I've been thinking about a project just like this. I'm thinking about using my 77/22 as a donor rifle and getting a second bolt for it to convert to centerfire. Just change bolts to switch back and forth. Maybe a Ruger American Rimfire and rework the firing pin to centerfire. Again just change the bolt to shoot the ammo you want.

Welcome to the 'Fire, shiwarlock!

Ed

Welcome.

Lot's of good people here on the fire. Put your cast iron underwear on over your thick skin and enjoy the ride.


Jeff

I did consider U. Clays and have a fair supply, just haven't walked down that path yet.

As far as the dies go, a fella might get some mileage out of the SS dies, but there are some things to ponder when doing this exercise. One of them are the constraints posed by heeled bullet dims. Not clear to me what specs the SS dies use and at this point I'm certain there are some differences between match grade and standard production, and that manufactured here in the US versus imported brands.

I'll be plinkin' a bit this afternoon and find out how it fares on the 50 yard line.

IIRC Hodgdon Lil Gun is used in some commercial rimfires.

Seems counterintuitive to me but will give it a try.

My dad shot either cast bullets or bullets similar to what Steve is showing during WW II. I think his folks, mother and father shot cast bullets during the 20's and 30's, and my great grandfather and great grandmother shot only cast in their muzzle loader(s). (He got his thumb shot off at Gettysburg.)

I'm not sure of the cartridge as dad upgraded to a 222 in 722 sometime after the war. But I believe he was shooting a 218 Bee, but it may have been another?? Dad did not care much for lever rifles, I'm not sure why, but he really liked that 222. It was only much later when a few Model 92's came up for sale did dad ever have lever rifles again.

I cast for almost all the cartridges I shoot, including 22. Although I don't have a Hornet, I find a 223 can be loaded down fairly well with acceptable results. I have not measured the velocity of my loads, but use loads from RCBS cast bullet and Lyman cast bullet manuals. I use GC's on mine, but after the weather gets better, I may try doing as MD did and shoot as cast, w/o GC.

Well, we wandered into the third round today with some interesting results. Per the previous efforts a couple rounds of regular RF ammo was fired to foul the bore and verify zero, this time at 50 yards. Double bag rest, two shooters this time under sunny skies with a light breeze, temps in the high 60s to low 70s. Groups were of 5 shots each with a minor deviation which will be noted.

Fouling round fired with Wolf MT and Norma TAC, the Wolf shooting a somewhat better group. Avg 1063 fps, ES 34.



Following that was a group fired with .9 grain Red Dot, WW SPP, and averaging 1031 fps, ES 25 and Sd of 11. The stats do not include an oddball that left a bit slow at 915 fps and was the low left hole. Have no idea what went astray there, but stuff happens.



Next up was a string of .8 grain 700X. Avg 953, ES 54, Sd21.



Color me underwhelmed..........

Next to last round of CF ammo today was a .9 grain charge of Bullseye which averaged 1000 fps, ES 58, Sd of 22.




Odd left overs caused me to chuckle. Two rounds with 1.0 grain of Red Dot, Avg 1068 fps, and broke the sound barrier with the second round....and burped from the primer. First time in my experience to see smoke emanating from both ends of a barrel.



Checked the barrel with Wolf and Tac on the way out, no significant change in precision.



The barrel cleaned without trace of leading and with only two patches. I have reached a point where the need for a sizing die is becoming apparent. One round fell apart during the loading process and I suspect there might be a relationship between that and random flyers that presented today. On another front, I have three pieces of brass that will no longer hold a primer. I suspect my assault with the primer pocket uniformer may have had influence on this but am not certain about that. Several cases indicate faint neck tension as well. I suspect the next firing cycle will be illuminating.

Case on the bottom is the one that burped.




If you look closely you will see a slight swelling forward of the web. Case walls are ballpark .008" in thickness with very minor variance. Bullet heel diameter is .208"-.210" with a preponderance hovering at .210". It is entirely possible that a slight increase of case wall thickness with a corresponding smaller diameter heel would address this favorably, but that would be speculation on my part.



That is all for now.

I love speculation.

Keep at it.

Hell, Dan I wouldn't put it past us missing the primer diameter a couple tenths, while setting stuff up, a one tenth, off set on a lathe gives you twice that on a diameter.
A half a thousands is easy to come and go, lets see how the next batch runs for consistency before we worry about the consistency of the material.

I could be the error we are seeing, I need to run of a batch with no changes in offsets, then we can end the speculation and start fixin stuff!

We are close, and close is good !

Very close indeed and thank you for that!

Closer to an "Everlasting" case, no?

Ed

Nah, closer to American production specs. The specs used for the brass production originated from Wolf MT dims. They do it different over in Yurp...shoots better too. Was trying to mimic their methods. Haven't decided yet if that was good thinking or not....lemme pop some more caps and I'll get back to ya!

Bottle caps or primers?

Ed

Yes. Absolutely! -laffin'-

Think I'll shoot the next series in the dark just to see how the IR guidance system works. I do love my PGM's.

I think you should set up the next series of tests with a live remote feed to us here on the 'fire, set up so we can take turns doing the shooting with our "enter" buttons.

Anyone shooting this rig is such fashion will have to have proof of adult supervision.

Will a note from my Mom suffice?

Late to the party, anyone mention the .270 Ren, a .22 blown out to a .270.

No, you're the very first, and our GRAND PRIZE WINNER!!!!!

gnoahhh, that will work but it needs a notary and must be recorded at the county seat there in Annappleolus.

And I am close to a major feat with this project. All y'all keep your fingers crossed please.

Or maybe I'm just drunk.

DD

I was always a fan of Little Feat music. Never heard of Major Feat. Fingers crossed (my Mom's are too- she thinks you're hot).

His son is General Disaster. He also has a brother in the Air Force, Master Chief Phuque Up.

Ed

OK, keep it up and I'll introduce you clowns to Corporal Punishment.

Suitably chastened and sitting in the corner now. Sir.

And...back to my coloring book now.



Ed

Said Major Considerations to Private Reasons "rebels like you have no right to enlist or exist",
as Corporal Punishment leered approval and gave his fierce mustache a fiercer twist.

There just may be a Colonel of truth in that.

We'll have to post a General Inquiry in hopes of Major Victory in the never ending struggle against a General Population fighting back against the threats of Corporal Punishment.

Ed

Major Probing is coming to see you wankers.

"Well, until Colonel Digital Blimp here finishes developing his amazing little bundook you're going to have to continue using your Lance, Corporal."

OHHH, could that be General Discord heading this way?

OK, False alarm, Looks more like Gunny Sack. He's coming back from calling General Quarters.

Think I'll go see what new colors are in my box of crayons now...

Ed

Well, the saga continues with Round 4.

Short time back someone suggested a trial with Lil' Gun, and another said to try some Clays. I wandered down that path today with some curious results. Break down of the data follows:

Temp; mid 70's, wind light and variable. Double bag rest @ 20 yards

5 fouler rounds, Norma TAC: Avg 1057, Es 48, Sd 17; Group of .35"

All .22 GTC groups were 3 rounds:

Dupont Hi-Skor 800X .9 grains, WW SPP Avg 735, Es 26, Sd 14; Group of .33" Load density approximately 70%

WW540 .9 grains, WW SPP, Avg 682, Es 78, Sd 39; Group of .51" Load density approx. 50%

Blue Dot .9 grains, WW SPP, Avg 584, Es 30; Sd 16; Group of .42" Load density approx 70%

5 rounds of Norma TAC afterwards, Avg 1064, ES 37, Sd, 14; Group of .218"




No leading occurred. It was curious that with each group the velocity increased with each round for a given charge. With minor deviation, this occurred with the Norma TAC as well. With the .22 GTC the increase was generally about half of the extreme spread for each load.

While the average velocities for the three loads was low, the groups were reasonably consistent with previous trials and there is ample room for more powder. I will give the 800X and Blue Dot another spin, looking up to something in the 1 - 1.2 grain range if possible. Maybe even the 540 will benefit from a larger charge, but I won't hold my breath on that one.

With all that said, despite this adventure being detail oriented I am satisfied with progress to this point. Things to do? Crimping tool/die, maybe a slightly harder bullet alloy is in order. Stay tuned on all that.

Is it practical? Yes indeed. I suspect most of you would be pleasantly surprised at how easy the load process is, and though not yet finalized, the function is good, accuracy OK and bound to get better.

DD

Dan,
That is great!

I'm expecting at any time for someone to ask you to neck it down to .17 caliber...

It won't be me, but you know how looneys are.

Ed

Funny you mention that Ed, doing it with the .22 WMR or .17 HMR would be a fair bit less complicated on a dozen or so levels. Rim/case diameter is larger, bullets are not heeled....simple matter of making CF cases, modifying the bolt and a set of dies. Shazaam!

And...you could load it down to .22lr levels for economy and for subsonic/suppressed needs.

I still want your .22lr version.

Ed

Deeper I get into this the more potential I see, and yes, one could fiddle with the WMR/HMR path until Rome burned again.

For what it may be worth, I have a backyard range which is legal under the statutory requirements here in Floriduh and am nested in a residential neighborhood. Many of my neighbors shoot from time to time, some even to the point of being a bit obnoxious and perhaps somewhat hazardous as the very few I can examine do not have berms, backstops or much of anything else. Got one of them to "shut up" one day when he was being particularly bothersome with what I think was a .22 WMR....by shooting a hole in the dirt with a .30-30. Not to belabor any of that in great detail, I am not a bother to the neighborhood. I restrict my shooting to subsonic velocities and use either a suppressor or baffle box. They are clueless that I shoot as much as I do, or in some cases, at all.

The backstop......


The deflector, AR400 and sand in the backside...


The 50 yard line...


It works for .22's, .38 Spcl S&W, .44 Mag etc. Users get the impression that the noise is louder than it should be until I do the shooting and let them stand back 15-20'. It's quiet, does a bit of a "wonk" with the .44 but is otherwise neighborly. Any of you wankers needin' some firewood, get in touch.

This works too....


Last loads I shot, the loudest sound was the "clack" of the hammer and "tink" of the backstop. And my occasional "I'll be danged!"

Lest it be overlooked, the 20 yard line..........



Stumps were recently replaced with concrete blocks and otherwise adjusted a bit. The bench has a third slab on the left as well.

That's cool!

What are the dimensions on your baffle box? Is there any type of insulation inside the box?

I saw a pic of one long ago, I think it was Mike Venturino's, built from 55gal drums.

I like yours!

Ed

Ed, short version: 15" square on the face, and 5' long. It is made from luan scrap and 3/4x1.5" pine scrap for the frame. 5 interior baffles spaced 6"X6"X12/12/12", beginning at the shooter's end. Couple of cross pads on each end. The interior was lined with 1" sheet foam w/ foil surface, but there might be other products that work better. Other than noise reduction, cleaning up the scrap was a consideration with the project. It weighs about 20 pounds, maybe a little bit more. Glue and a brad nailer to assemble except the top is secured with screws for purposes of maintenance.

It works. So would Mr. V's.

Thanks to all who have made this a very interesting and informative thread. I have no contributions to make but truly enjoy learning from y'all.

thanks GRF

Thanks, Dan.
IIRC, Mr. V's was also built to be able to shoot from the warmth of his "shooting house" during those chilly Montana winters and cut down on the muzzle blast from such small bores as .45-70, .45-110, .50-70, etc.

Ed

Don't feel alone! I learn something everyday on here.

If you're not learning, you're dying!

Ed

If one was needing some lino or babbit to make some tougher projo's,it could be sent.

Gather 'round lads, the show goes on!

Loaded up the next batch and will be shooting tomorrow. There have been some new developments....good ones!

Ran out of the last of my WW SRP stash and moving into the realm of CCI. Don't know what influence that will have, but if it doesn't show promise the Federal supply will get tapped, maybe even some match primers. Gut feeling is I'll like the response, if for no other reason than groups shrank a lot for the Sneezer when that change was made. Reason for the drill is to gather some more data, 5 shots per gives a better set in my opinion. Will be on the 20 yard line for this round.

So here they are. The oddball is the odd man out and guinea pig for a 1.0 grain charge of Bullseye.:



I have a friend who recently acquired a lathe and mill. He is a rookie, but quite enthused with the equipment and the .22 GTC project. He wanted to make a size die. His third attempt works quite well as a taper crimp die and may Zeus bless him for his energy! It may work as a size die for all I know, but I've not needed to pursue that at present. Just a kiss is all it takes, no contact on the bullet and they are one with the brass. Zounds!

Such things provided an avenue to explore something else considered from the beginning........



And........



The round fed normally from the magazine and the picture above was taken during extraction. No hiccups, burps or other complaints. Well, maybe one, the damn ol' 10/22 does not have a CF bolt.

I'm doomed.

Yet.

And yes, you're doomed. Doomed to fame and fortune!

Ed

Not to pick nits, I would prefer that Gramp's 513S had a CF bolt instead of the 10/22.

Well, Round 5 went down today and here is the report.

I am better informed today than yesterday.

Sunny and clear this morning, mid 70's and light variable wind.

I set about affairs in the normal fashion with hopes of gathering a better data set using 5 shots for each load, and in part I was rewarded.

Data is served before the target picture and please note that all shots were at 20 yards.

Two black crosses at the top of the target used to verify zero, done today with both Norma TAC and Wolf MT, 5 shots each left to right in order.

Norma grouped .445" with the single flyer. The flyer is the first shot from a clean barrel.
Avg. 1060 fps, ES 33, SD 13

Wolf apparently not to be outdone, grouped .091" for the string. My Contender is infatuated with that stuff.
Avg. 1069 fps, ES 21, SD 8

.9 Bullseye: .701" Avg. 965, ES 18, SD 7 The flyer was the third shot.
.9 Red Dot: .742" Avg. 1048, ES 75, SD 27. The flyer was the last shot which registered 1004 fps. It was one of three cartridges which I was unable to crimp sufficiently to preclude the bullet turning in the case with minor effort. Due to the taper crimp installed on all cartridges most would not turn.
.8 700X: .457" Avg 919 fps, ES 76, SD 28. Two cases in this string had bullets that could be turned with minor effort and had velocities of 914 and 876 respectively. With that said, wild ES but the best group of the lot. I'm scratching my noodle a bit over that. But wait, it gets even more curious!

Upper X in the middle of the target was a string of 15 rounds of Norma TAC, nobly sacrificed due to old age for the purpose of verifying the bore was not leaded.
.300" on the group; Avg. 1060, ES 65, SD 14.



I realize fully that velocity variation will not normally manifest on the target at close range, but with this project it does....and doesn't. Have to laff at myself now and then.
Otherwise, I see consistency between the demonstrated groups of 3 and 5 for these loads, and to some degree in the numbers. The last CF shot was 1.0 grains of Bullseye at the bottom, velocity of 1044 fps and I'll be revisiting that load next time. Why just 1 you ask? Because at present I have only 16 cases.

Now if I can just figure out what I need to work on with the bullets/powders so I can shoot the CF as precisely as the Wolf........

With Great Expectations,

DD

Having toyed with loads and crimping a bit I got around to slugging the barrel and pondering trivia. .222"/.216" on the groove/bore thing and a review of dims revealed I apparently got off track with the bullet diameter. Thought it was in the .224" range for some reason, but discovered it was a nominal .2225"

Looking at my process for knurling and lube with one eye and the flyers with the other, I made a second effort to do better and this is what I came up with.

Old style of knurl on the left, new improved version on the right and it is easily repeated. Interesting aspect is that it increases drive band diameter to .2245" with great uniformity. Smilin' here.



Thinking I will explore a new lube with Johnson's paste wax and graphite just for giggles. Also received a suggestion that I pull a few RF bullets and use the powder within for the trials. Maybe........

DD

Hmmm. Let's see. Dissecting .22 ammo to get powder to avoid .22RF shortage woes. Makes sense to me! (Kidding of course. Any experimentation is good for the furtherance of general esoteric knowledge.)

As for grease grooves on the bullet- when you finish being the guinea pig I'll order a mold sized to fit my throat with multiple shallow lube grooves a là Lee bullets intended for liquid alox-ing. I was a little skeptical of the roll engraving with a file routine- too easy to inflict slight anomalies, I would think. (That, or buy some extra lube grooves from you if you have some to spare. I looked on ebay and they're fetching too much on the open market.)

Things that make you go; "HMMMMM".

Bringing up the diameter could mean some really good things!

Have you tried any of the NASA lube by Bullshop? It's for BPCR shooting. I was given a couple of pounds of it. It works pretty good.

Ed

Gut reflection here, but when I dissected the factory stuff to check dims I saved the powder from 5 Wolf rounds without a clue why. Now I know? 5.0 grains of greenish yellow flakes I'll call Brand X. Wild guess on my part it was likely made by Norma.

The lube grooveless drive band was for prototype expedience and my mimic with the file leaves a knurl similar to some production ammo albeit more pronounced. My jewel was done with a file also, but not with the heavy handed approach. My sense of affairs is that if the dims are compatible there is precious little need for lube. A little for sure, but not enough for as many grooves represented by the new method. Hand tools and ingenuity are amusing to say the least.

No Bullshop lube...yet.

Will be after round 6 soon, cases are cleaned and primed.

Would add that the different methods of lube on production RF ammo is quite varied. Copper wash, wax seem most common for US ammo, while graphite/grease seems to dominate Yurp production. I know which shoots better. Same source bullets are .224" diameter w/o variation, the case walls are .007" and the primer is surgically neat. Bullet heels on the Wolf are .210" with less than .1 grain of weight variation. Too, the cup on the bullet base is quite shallow whereas some US stuff you could use as a shot glass.

I'd be happy to throw some of my NASA lube in the mail to you. I'll never use the amount that I have.

It melts at about the same temp as historic beeswax/lard.

Maybe nose dip the loaded cartridge into the melted lube? You could use a CCI ammo box to hang the lubed cartridges in while allowing the lube to solidify.

Ed

Might take you up on that a little down the road.

You think the same way as me. Congratulations?

Dan

I better get off my azz and get some brass done huh !

Today is trivia day!

My somewhat cynical view of US manufactured ammo priming methodology is illustrated below.

Wolf priming on the left, WW on the right. To be fair, I found the sloppy style of priming on all US ammo examined which includes CCI, W-W, Federal. The thing that was disappointing was the wild variation witnessed within each brand/style. This is countered by the remarkably uniform priming found in Wolf/SK ammo.



A second image is self explanatory for the most part and gives a thousand word view of the differences in powder that I have been using (Bullseye/700X) in comparison with the sample salvaged from the Wolf ammo. I see little difference in appearance of the powder in US manufactured ammo, and that from Europe, though they are fairly different from each other. I did see some US stuff with similar color tone as the other, but the flake size was different.



Because I have altered the style of lube grooves, the next round will repeat previous loads to compare performance resulting from that single factor. When that is evaluated I will burn some of the Wolf powder for comparison.

Gather 'round all you mothers, brothers and others, Round 6 is on deck!

Loaded up today and shot this afternoon. Primary purpose was to test the new lube groove style and they passed the test just fine, no leading was inflicted. I'm also toying with the crimp theory and it is an exercise in uncertainty. Crimp it does and without any obvious abuse of the case but I'm still in need of sorting out the fine points to install uniformity. Evidence otherwise is indicated on the target to some degree in the form of significant velocity variations.

Ducks in a row?



So it was 5 rounds of 700X, 3 each of Bullseye and WW231, then a finale with Red Dot. Numbers are on the targets and the velocity deviants are where the fliers came from. Group size is underlined in red. Not shown is the boring 5 shot group of Norma TAC on the front end to foul the bore. About .3" with an ES of 36.



This thing is a tease, but the problem probably rests on my shoulders. FYI, load density for the 700X and Red Dot is in the 80% range, while Bullseye and WW231 are about 50%.

I have a couple of thoughts. One is that the errant fliers are a result of inconsistent velocity, each and every one. I see the numbers, the POI and there is a direct correlation. That said, not all extreme spreads beget large groups. I'm fairly certain this is, in part, an issue of inconsistent crimps. I'm working on it, RELAX!

Next round will be working the crimp issue and a bit more WW231. It seems to show promise?

So that was mostly it for the project today, but my rifle asked to play, said it wanted to show me something.

I don't remember what primers you are using, but I have a theory. It may be crap, but here it is. When I was reloading 22 Hornet, I read a lot about using very light primers, because the primer ignition could unseat the bullet and cause accuracy issues. Remington 6 1/2 primers were recommended. Some people used small pistol primers. Others would add a bit of a crimp. Since these cases are even smaller than 22 Hornet cases, my question/theory is what are the lightest ignition small pistol primers and would those light primers help?

Along the same lines, some of the BPCR crowd place a tiny piece of toilet tissue inside the case to cover the flash hole before the case is charged. This is done to moderate the flash.

Ed

Moderating the ignition isn't what I was thinking. The pressure would still be there. The inital jump in pressure from primer ignition could unseat the bullet. A primer with a smaller initial pressure spike might not unseat the bullet. The site below shows a few large and small rifle primers, with Fed 205m primers being the "lightest" shown. I couldn't find anything similar for pistol primers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

Well, you fellas may be on to something there, but how to fix it is a puzzle? I have some SR match primers, but have been shooting the WW and CCI SPP exclusively. Thing that makes me think crimp is the issue is the velocity deviations are almost random in nature, with one, sometimes two in a string taking off on their own. I note that the most prevalent circumstance for this is when I push velocity up above the mid 900 fps range. A very few have gone out of the box on the top side, but most have velocity drops. Crimp I think, but that's a maybe/maybe not deal. Next suspect on this is the bullet alloy. I had a similar experience with the Sneezer project and hardening the alloy helped a lot. I haven't the slightest idea what pressures are with this ammo, suspect it is on the low side, but that's speculation.

While I ponder such weighty things I shall wander back to the lead pot and crank out a few hundred that are a bit more hard headed and see what happens. One thing for a fact would be the tendency of these loads to wad 3 or four into one little ragged hole then fling one out in left field brings out the "hold my beer and watch this" in me. I'll sort this out in time...little clues keep popping up and doing this without conventional load tooling is a challenge, but in the end you'll see 5 in a wad, count on it.

Last thought? It works...........

Maybe a tiny bit of filler on top of the powder to keep the powder charge in a consistent place...?

Have considered that but note the velocity excursions do not seem influenced by load density. Large flake powders (700X, Red Dot etc) do it with ~80% LD and the others do it w/ 50%. Head scratcher it is. Thinking that once I test the different alloys and nail down the crimp issue I'll see what happens with the Wolf powder.

I have been reading this thread for awhile now.... I applaud all of you who are good at sorting out the puzzle... changing one variable at a time and keeping careful notes...

My brain just does not work that way..... The Clint Eastwood line about "A man needs to know his limitations" comes to mind.

I do really like the concept of a quite re-loadable small game round in a Contender carbine though. I have enough lead alloy horded away to last the rest of my days. I'm pretty frugal (cheap) too so I'd enjoy the just the cost of a primer and bit of powder in a small volume case plan.

Does anyone have experience with say a .32 Mag or a .327 Fed (if the longer case would not hamper a primary goal of accurate and quite "mouse fart" type loads) in a carbine or rifle length barrel?

No, but I have shot .32 S&W Long out of my .30-06 by using an adapter cartridge. It was very quiet and surprisingly accurate.

Ed

Will be a slave to the cause tomorrow, lead pot will be smokin'.....

Background dialog with Jimy earlier and he pegged something I've been dancing with, bullet base symmetry, or lack thereof. Sprue plate was a bit loose and some of the bullets were queer on the backside. Oh well......fixed and moving on.

I've shot round balls from a .44 Mag, but they were paper patched. Shot quite well up to around 1800 fps, how weird is that? They will strip on the rifling somewhere approaching 2400 fps though. My Chrony told me it was lucky to have survived the ordeal. Probably? They weren't quiet.

Hey Dan, any thoughts on changing the size of the thru hole ? I'm not at the shop now but weren't we at .080 ? Do you want some at say 10 each @ .070/.060/.050 or some where in between?

Thinking I would prefer to keep it at .080". Any smaller and I'll have a minor challenge with the decapping thing. Have some brass from RMC with a flashole in the .050-.060 range for the .25-20SS and don't see any performance advantage with that cartridge compared to other brands with the conventional geometry. I can try it if you like, but no more than 5 cases in the range of .050-.060"?

Don't know for certain but suspect your point out on the concentricity issue of the bullet base might have a positive effect on things. More exercise with the mould yesterday than I care to relate, suffice to say it was an education. Never had cause to do a fine detail exam on a mould but glad I did....and it's all your fault! Thanks for that and I'll be talking to Steve Brooks about a couple of points. Will probably learn a few more things about this stuff. Yesterday's run with the mould left a fair batch with .002 RO or less, BHN in the range of 9. Don't recall if I told this tale previously, but when I opened the door to having him make the mould he put one together that was the result of salvaging a block that wasn't up to specs for the big ol' .45 cal money bullet and boring the .22 hole to one side. Funny looking thing when opened for inspection. Such was his interest in the project that he tossed in the mould free of charge with the caveat that the next one wouldn't be so cheap. Boy howdy, do I appreciate that thought. Lessons in Tedium 101 is a 5 credit course!

I have suggested as much about the nature of this before, and I want to clarify for those interested, should all the fine points get ironed out and this thing demonstrates match grade precision, it will be by virtue of having worked out the fine details along the way. Assembling the ammo is easy and fair quick and I know for a fact it will be even easier once tools are available.

Time to pop some caps before anything firm is decided in any case.

DD

>.080 it will be, it might be worth making a sizing die for for the bullet seat dia, a simple bench block with a short leed in and a precision hole thru it, I'm thinking we could get the runout down to a half thousand or so by pushing them into the hole, and rotating them 180 degrees simple getting rid of the high spot and lows.
I will wait to hear how today's test go.

Didn't look good for the shoot today, but there was a break in the rain and I put Round 7 to rest.

Funny stuff for your consideration is the first fouler group of Norma TAC had good numbers for 3 shots and a 1/2" group at 20 yards. The last group after the trial went .53" for three shots, with similar numbers.

Went 5 rounds each with Bullseye, WW231 and Red Dot.



I have come to a couple of conclusions as a result.

- Norma TAC ain't all that good anymore.
-My new bullet guru is Jimy, who noted a concentricity issue on some bullets I sent his way and I sorta fixed that before this shoot. Thank you Master!
-The harder alloy did not lead, not even a flake.
-It isn't that hard to equal production SV velocity. See the Red Dot target. See the low numbers. See one of the biggest groups of the day.
-I have some more work ahead with the WW231 and Bullseye. The Red Dot has shown some good numbers along the way, but not a lot of precision. It just got fired.
-Will bump up the charge of Bullseye and 231 to 1.0 and 1.1 next round and let them race with a round loaded with Wolf powder. I'm going to crack the 1050 fps barrier with some precision before this concludes.

For what it's worth, I think it a successful project to this point and it demonstrates the functional nature of building such ammo. The brass has been fired 7 times now and has yet to require sizing, though the crimp die is useful. I've an energetic friend who keeps yakking about making a CF bolt for the 10/22....might turn him loose on that.

As this progresses stray thoughts occur and I'm curious about what others think. Recall somewhere in the past I posted a pic of my case cleaning tool, a bamboo skewer with some steel wool wrapped around. It has evolved to use bronze wool and does a remarkable job of cleaning the cases after firing.



So here I am, seating primers with a hammer, cleaning cases with bamboo, not having to size, using a file to knurl the bullets and a makeshift size die as a taper crimp tool. The Rockchucker is used to decap the cases after firing, but it isn't necessary. Not visible in the photo above is a feature of the load block which provides for decapping by use of a small center punch and my wee hammer. See the top hole in this image....high tech decapping station. Haaarrrrhhh!



All of this causes me to vacillate in regards to the ideal load tools, pun intended. Given a modicum of hand tools it is entirely possible that 4H shooting clubs, Boy Scouts and so forth could introduce our youth into the art of hand loading at modest expense. Maybe even bullet casting? Or there is the certainty that some of us dogmatic minutia maniacs might wish to build match grade ammo and that would benefit from use of more conventional loading tools and equipment. In short, I feel strongly both ways and wonder what you loonies think as well.

Thoughts?

DD

DD,have you tried any jacketed bullets in the wee little case? I am asking as that just might be a squirrel killer extraordinaire.

No, haven't even contemplated that. There be a shortage of properly sized J-bullets for the cartridge since spec groove diameter is .222" and the heel thing. Of course if any of our fellow loonies wish to explore development of a swagged jacketed bullet to spec I would be the first to welcome such effort!

For whatever it might be worth, my testing schedule has it the next round will up the ante on velocity a bit, and eventually I'll explore the supersonic world. Hell, I might even get myself a short bullet mould and try Warp speeds.

Ensign Chekov

Thanks Dan.

A lightweight jacketed bullet at 1000+ fps would be just the ticket for squirrels and bunnies.

I'd wager that soft lead would do the same. Bold assumption on my part based on how my Benjamin 312 works on squill.

Could be Dan,I just don't want any richochets as there are houses around the pecan orchard.

You'd almost have to go with a bullet similar to a "Sinterfire". Or just use a PCP air rifle.

Ed

OK, I get it now. Pretty much what Ed suggested would work. Or maybe a .410. One stray thought, cast bullets made with linotype pretty much shatter when they hit anything hard.

I use a .17 HMR now and have had no problems. But what you are experimenting with sounds like a better idea. Being that it is reloadable and not to noisy.

Ken, lemme get a mile or so further down this path and I'll see if I can kluge up a test for this jewel and some lino bullets in regards to fragmentation/ricochets. You know me, always ready for the weird and not so obvious.

Another thought occurs that is a bit outside the box perhaps, but if a fella wanted some sport with squill without causing a ruckus he might consider use of BB caps. Target below was shot with a 4.5mm Zimmerstutzen rifle at 50' offhand. MV is about 800 fps. I've a fair supply of .22 caliber BB caps and have found them as precise as my CB shorts out of the Contender with a short chambered barrel, velocity the same. They are not silent from the 20" barrel, but some years ago I plinked a few with a 26" barrel and all I heard was the firing pin strike and a whap on the other end. I have no need to try it, but likewise no doubt they would kill a pig with a careful shot. They kill squill dead as a doorknob and that's a natural fact, proven here in the swamps.



FYI, BB caps are primer powered, no gunpowder used or abused. Of course if you want warp drive a pinch or two might get you there. Trying to get my mind wrapped around CF primed BB cap cases here.....gonna be tough..........

Thanks Dan.

Offhand at 50’? That’s petty decent shooting!!😊

It is, but I don't claim responsibility for that. Some cowboy from out in the Montana/Wyoming area that goes by SPG (Steve Garbe) did that one and another dozen targets sent with the piece pictured below.. Free tip for anyone that cares, if you ever get in a match with him as one of the contestants, aim for 2d place 'cause there's little chance of takin' 1st. The lad is apparently wired in with Zeus and rarely misses.



I did this one a fair number of years ago, maybe 2006 or so on the 25 yard line with CB Shorts in the Contender, purpose being to foul a barrel that had been cleaned to immaculate status. Semi-offhand with an elbow rest and it's about as good as I get.



Pulled this off about the same time, full tilt offhand at 50 yards with a .45 cal flinter. Not a snowball's chance in hell I could do it today.

I daresay any bullet, be it lead or jacketed, starting at -1000fps is going to ricochet unless firmly/softly backstopped. Unless, of course, it is a bullet specifically designed to shatter. I doubt a Linotype alloy will provide that as it also needs speed to generate the energy required for shattering, and even then a lino bullet will shatter its nose off and the back half will keep on traveling. This is something I have observed over decades of cast bullet experimenting, a lot of it with lino alloys (until I discovered the joys of soft alloys).

In general terms I'd agree with you on that, but I was mulling over the idea of a 30'ish grain lino hollow point of the deep cavity variety. Thinking one could top 1300 fps with such a design and while there might be a few chunks left over, most would disintegrate. I've seen this with HV short hollow points with pigs. Where the standard CB short will fully penetrate neck, spine and exit on pigs up to about 100#, the HVHP shorts get to the spine and shatter. Typical residue is comprised of the bullet base of about 12-15 grains and the rest is fragments. MV for those rounds is about 1100 fps and the alloy is much softer than lino, BHN running in the 6-8 range as best I can figure.

The good news is I have a supply of pig cadavers on regular basis for testing. I got more squirrels around here than Tim Leary could have imagined. Don't have any pecan trees, but the oaks and hickory population boggles the mind.

In any case, it is not a near term project on the agenda.....gotta finish this CF thing off good and proper first.

A short summary of this effort would be much appreciated

Are or will the cases be available?

Which bullet mold is working best?

Reloading dies optional?

Is there a plan to bring out some kind of turn key kit when you reach the performance you are hoping for?

2ndwind, your timing if good with your questions. A report on Round 8 and a summary to follow.

Ran 16 rounds of CF per usual, with loads bumped up .1 grain and the odd man out at 1.1 grains. 5 shots for each group except the 1.1 grain load of WW231.
My summary of today's effort: A couple of flyers in the first two groups associated with velocity excursions, otherwise it seemed to do OK. Bullseye obviously went past the point of reasonable performance and I'll drop that off the list of things to use at this level. The salvaged Wolf powder has a message I think, that being that the powder used by the manufacturers might be key to success in the sense of precision. With exception of the odd little flyer it would have rivaled the Norma Tac for both precision and velocity. 4 shots in the 3's.

Numbers are on the target:



So here's where I sit with this. I have demonstrated the functionality of the idea, only some details need to be ironed out. Tools? Laffin' at that idea. I have a shell holder and a "size die" that will provide a mild taper crimp. That's a good news/bad news item in my view. Good that it illustrates the activity is doable with few if any tools IF the brass is used in the same chamber. Bad in the sense that I do not have what is likely needed to explore precision. The cartridge has demonstrated it has sufficient precision and power to handle small game at modest distance, say inside of 50 yards. It has demonstrated the ability to cycle thru a 10/22 without problems, but I've not fired it from that platform. If one has the brass and a little ingenuity here is a functional cartridge for the field, or for plinking. I really, really, wish I had a supply of the powder used in the Wolf ammo.

I need to revisit the mould provided by Steve Brooks. It is perfectly functional for preliminary testing, but the end product would benefit from adding a thou to the drive band diameter and a couple other minor mods. The bullet form was based on bullets from Wolf MT ammo and is faithfully replicated. Knurling with a file works fine, I've yet to experience any leading while using my mixture of SPG Lube and graphite.

My approach has been to test one thing at a time. That and a limited brass supply makes for a modest pace, but continue I shall. In my opinion, when one undertakes something of this sort it is proper to test, to the extent possible, one variable at a time. It is not a fast process.

I have ongoing dialog with two industry players, one of which has invited me to submit a proposal for production. I think the idea will have traction, but the final package(s) that may be marketed as a result are not my call. I favor two styles of tools. One would revolve around the Lyman 310 tool, while the other would incorporate current tooling that is common to hand loading. I suspect there would be a market for swagged lead bullets, bullet moulds, and certainly a style of powder suitable for the pursuit. The powder is out there, just hasn't been packaged for the retail market. I'm also thinking that this pastime would make gang moulds very popular.

For the moment if is not going to be available over the counter. That did not stop me, and does not need to stop anyone else who wishes to jump into the shallow end of the pool. With access to proper machine tools and a little skill, one could most certainly develop match grade ammo with the concept.

It will be a couple weeks before I do another round, family affairs will take priority for a little while.

Dan

Well the good news is that I got 150 pcs of brass finished on the front side yesterday, so next week you should have a larger supply to sample from, the back side goes pretty quick, just face them of and put the primer seat in and , Wa laaa new cases !

Dat's a lot of brass ya got there!

I'm not trying to encroach on DigitalDan here, but I wondered if I could get a .25 ACP case down to .22 lr specs.

So I started playing with that starting point and have worked out a crude process to form .25 ACP brass down, and have one prototype .22lr wildcat case formed. I just need to get the last "die" in the right size. I went too small on my first attempt, I expected more spring back than I got. All of this was done with primitive tools, drill bushings to size down in 6 steps, a homemade punch to push case out of said bushings, a bench vise used as an arbor press, a drill to spin the brass on the punch after the last sizing, and a mini flat file for removing excess brass from the rim and webbing area. The only reloading specific tool used is a small primer pocket uniformer. A LOT of effort for one case, but it can be done. Below are pictures of my efforts, in a google album. Left to Right .25ACP case, my .22lr wildcat case, and a normal .22lr case.

22lr Wildcat album

At this point I'm looking for a gunsmith to do some bolt conversion work for me. I have a spare bolt for my 77/22 All Weather and want to have it converted to centerfire.

I have worked out 2 options on this conversion, both require, probably, plugging the existing rimfire hole in the breech block. I don't have the equipment to plug the breech block, if necessary, and drill the new hole.

First option is to use the existing starting point on the back of the breech block and angle the hole down to the center. This is how, I think, the 77/22 and 77/17 Hornet breech block is setup.

Second option is to drill a centered hole all the way through and modify the striker and firing pin to work centered. This would require a more work, because it would require a spacer/stop and a larger bore for part of the channel so a spring can be placed around the firing pin. This will keep the firing pin from being loose in the channel when it's in the cocked position. This option would also require a breech block pin to be shortened/modified for clearance of the firing pin and spring.

Of the above options I'm leaning towards the first, but the second is doable, just more work.

Does anybody know of a gunsmith that might be willing to take on this project?

Thanks,
Sean

Sean, nice work there and my apologies that you caught the infection too. It is an exercise in tweedle-dee and dum but I am enjoying it. Only have to shoot another 56,000 rounds to use up my pistol powder stash.

I'm running round 9 tomorrow if the weather holds.

Had discussion with Steve Brooks yesterday about fine tuning the mould design and it's in the works....a 3 holer....praise be unto the gods...

DD

Castboolits has a similar project thread some may find interesting

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356567-Introducing-The-22-ladybug

2ndwind, thanks for the link, it is a fair good read. Glad to find another equally infected with this malicious virus. Have to admit it never would have occurred to me to pursue this by modifying .25 ACP brass. Oh, the tedium.........

Went for round 9 yesterday and it was a bit of a curiosity. Revisited 800X and pushed the envelope with WW231. The latter brought for a couple of vicious cracks that made the squirrels hide.

Numbers are on the target, with the first foulers shot at the 8 o'clock position and proceeding clockwise from there. Group size is circled and I must say that .58" seemed a popular spread.



Couple of comments on the endeavor. I am puzzled a bit by the Norma TAC deciding to not one hole it before or after, but hey, stuff happens. Seems the ~50 fps/.1 grain of charge change is a relatively predictable metric. There is some minor deviation, but not enough to get fired up about.

One of the side effects of a suppressor as best I can determine, is that it magnifies variations within the interior ballistics world, and perhaps this comes from a change in barrel harmonics. Just speculating on that, but if you'll note the 1.1 charge of WW231 target at 2 o'clock you will see three in one hole and two outliers, one in the 25 ring. Those two shots were first and last in the string, both supersonic. Likewise for the 1.0 grain charge of 800X at 10 0'clock. Two groups adjacent and perfectly correlated to the velocities. Two on the right are from the "800s" and those on the left from the "700's". 'Tis a puzzle I doubt I'll be able to sort out, though the hint is that if I can get the velocity spreads under control I might put this to rest. Finding it amusing that a significant velocity change generates a shift in group placement as well. See the 800X target in comparison to the others. This has been going on from day one.

On the latter point, and I think properly illustrated by the previous round, powder appropriate to the task is necessary if anything close to match grade accuracy is the goal. I've had fairly consistent results with a variety of powders, but none did quite so well as that salvaged from the Wolf MT rounds when this project started. I think the WW231 has done as well as any of the others, better than most. I will dabble with a few others perhaps and most certainly bump up the charge of 800X because it seems to offer some potential AND there is room remaining in the case. The 1.1 grain solo round was ballpark 90% load density and I suspect potential for up to 1.3 grains before compression begins to occur.

Tools......yeah, I need to start working on that. I mentioned earlier that this has been and exercise in innovation if you recall. Couple of things are engraved in stone at this point. Shoot from a single gun and don't hold your expectation terribly high for precision and you don't need tools. Period. Having gone thru 9 load cycles at this point w/o case sizing makes the point in my opinion. I knurl with a file, wipe some lube on that and have yet to experience any leading whatsoever. "Crimping" with a tapered size die provided by a friend is not precise by any measure, but seems to have a somewhat positive effect. Notably, the bullets will not fall out when handling for transport and loading. My point is for purposes of simply plinking, training or pursuit of small game at modest ranges, tools are not really required. Hammers and a punch seat primers just fine. A shell holder is convenient, but not required for decapping.

So here I sit and being occasionally beset by a desire to conquer minutiae I'm going to do the following. 1) modify specs very slightly on the bullet mould and 2) have Hornady make a set of dies for purposes of illustrating that conventional loading methods enable use in multiple guns (chambers), facilitate precision and, uh, just because. Following discussion with Steve Brooks I anticipate a 3 cavity mould (Thanks to the Gods), and based on experience with Hornady's custom dies will be making one hole groups. :Dr

I will dabble with this somewhat while awaiting such things, little more powder here, different primer brand there, but in the main this project will rest until those things arrive.

And yeah, I'm going to have a CF bolt made for one of my repeaters. God help me.........

Dan

I've been giving this centerfire bolt some thoughts, it might be easier than first thought. I'm going looking for a donor this week.

Hey Dan did you make a powder funnel yet ?

Got that covered Jim, thanks. Been away for a spell, sorry for the slow response.

Also am a bit pleased to announce the .22 GTC has been blooded. The surviving squirrels are having a protest as I type. From all appearances the cartridge has a propensity to over-penetrate. While the bullets were subsonic and not hollow pointed I note that placement within a half inch or so of the ear pretty much carries the day. Every time. High shoulder shots work also.

DD


PS: Some time ago it was suggested by a rep. from Hornady that I submit a proposal for production of this marvelous thing and pass along that it was forwarded last week. All 5 pages or so. Will pass along any feedback that results.

Good deal and keep up the good work.

Jeez, proposal for production

Well, maybe not so crazy, good ideas sometimes do get noticed.

Hoping it works out so I can spend more of my retirement on new toys!

Geno

The proposal was their idea, not my own. So who's the loon?

Aren't they the folks that "came up with" that silly 6.5 Creedmor deal?

Look at the scheidtstorm that has initiated!

Perhaps you're on to something DD. The next big thing in short range shooting!

Geno

After reading all 47 pages..... this thing is about to really take off!!!! Have to love an ammo company that says no to a huge state contract with the gun hating legislature. Stand together NY Patriots.
Go Hornady.
So who makes the first factory rifle??????
Thanks Dan

myself I just always keep a few extra cases of 22 LR ammo around,yes its better now that Trump is president, and as a gun dealer even background check`s go thru much easier now. so if you enjoy shooting your 22LR guns stock up now on ammo, just in case in the future America elects another Liberal gun hater !

Bob, I think T/C has already made the rifle.

Others are out there, not too difficult to modify from what I hear. Sitting here with fingers crossed and in the process of loading up 50 rounds for another bout of testing.

Pete, I'm not unmindful of the benefit accrued from planning, but I don't know the average shooter thinks that far ahead. What the average Joe knows is loons like myself who can teach them the ropes on reloading and spread the gospel. I got a few bricks that survived the last administration, but frankly I would rather shoot my own. I firmly believe I can exceed performance for US manufactured ammo for the most part and know for a fact I can do it cheaper.

Caught a break from the rain today and ran 52 rounds thru the paper. Not braggin' but it looks like a few things are coming together and I got a few chuckles out of the deal as well. Firstly, just before I put the can on the barrel I took a moment and shook the debris out onto a paper towel. I was somewhat surprised at the amount of unburned powder that emerged. The unburned part was verified on the driveway with a Bic lighter. Yep, weren't burned. It was quite a pile accumulated over the course of firing about 100-140 rounds previously.

So I started with a clean can (please spare the editorial levity), fired the loads and repeated the dump (don't say it). 25.7 grains of unburned powder of the large flake variety. Today's round utilized the following powders and total load of each.
800X - 21.0 grains
Blue Dot - 22.0 grains
231 - 12.0 grains



I had to chuckle about this new horizon of inefficiency that I have found.

With that out of the way, it seems that some of my tweedling has paid off.

For example, I probably won't pursue further load tests with Blue Dot. It isn't the low velocity that bothers me, but the lack of precision. This load is in the 90-95% load density range. You may note the reference to "NASA" and that refers to the type lube. I loaded 10 rounds each with 5 different charges of powder and further subdivided that with different lubes. SPG mixed with graphite and NASA lube without modification. I also tested 2 rounds with a mix of vaseline and graphite, a brew I will try again.



Anyway, I dabbled with some 800X and found myself shooting a group that brought on a smile since it was better than the fouling group with factory Norma Tac.



Since I was on a roll bumped the charge up 10% and let it rip....er....phffft. Yeah, these things are so quiet it's plain weird.



My testing with the different lubes in inconclusive at this point, but will continue due to a few hints. NASA has potential and the Vaseline/Graphite mix....only 2 shots, into a hair over .3" with modest velocity variation. 2 shots doesn't mean much, but it doesn't take much to make me look twice these days.

All of this went down on the 20 yard line and subject to a few more tests I'll start fiddlin' on the 50 just for giggles. And black powder. 3f and 4f. Dunno I'll get anywhere with it, but a fella doesn't know until he tries. Loads will be simple....fill the case and shoot; see what happens and let you know. One thing that is the schizzle about BP and mufflers, you can clean them in the dish washer. Simplicity is a good thing.

Oh yeah, next round? I have a new crimping tool and we'll see if that helps.

Dan

Dan,

did I miss something or did I misread about the 231? Did you test that also?

Geno

Yes indeed. I've been fiddling with WW231 almost from the start. Didn't post the pics from this round but two groups of 5 performed thus:

1.0 grains, CCI SPP with SPG lube averaged 994 fps with ES of 63 and Sd of 24. Group was .44"
Same load with NASA lube averaged 1029 fps with ES of 56 and Sd of 20. Group was .41"
2 rounds with same load and Vaseline/Graphite lube Avg 1021 fps and grouped .26"

During the previous test I rand a load of 1.1 WW231 that averaged 1116 fps w/ES of 70 and Sd 30. Group was .73" and two rounds were decidedly supersonic. 1140 and 1158 fps. The group would have been in the high 3's except for a flyer.

I've got some more work to do with 231 but have shelved Bullseye and Blue Dot forever....and a day. If you go back a little ways you'll see at least a couple of 231 targets w/data.

Does the unburnt powder in the can cause any concern at this point, do you think it's affecting accuracy to a point that cleaning or just pushing a dry patch threw the barrel could change speed or accuracy enough to notice ?

It isn't an issue. There have been a few times when shooting the Sneezer that it ignites but it just sizzles for a few seconds. Hasn't happened with the .22. I have shot RF ammo with and without the can and it makes no difference in regards to precision. It does cause a POI shift but it is very minor with the .22.

Only time I ever wiped between shots was with BP loads in the Sneezer.

Jimy, one of the things I've been doing with the tests is to fire 5 RF rounds before and after the CF rounds are fired. It fouls the bore and verifies zero on the front end and in theory checks for leading on the back side. Group size of each on this last go round was within .1" of the other, this after 52 CF rounds. Groups at 20 yards are typically around .3" for Norma Tac and .2" for Wolf MT.

My 22 RF alternative in .223. When I see 50 rds. of 22 for $2 I might buy some more, but until then I'm done with 22 RF.

Thanks, sir, for the reply re: 231.

I had seen the other earlier test targets, just wondered if there had been a substantial improvement/decline in what you're looking for on this test with the lubes.

The velocity figures are ballpark where you want them with the 1.0 load? Slightly speedier than the 800X with similar ES & SD. Accuracy, esp if the Vaseline/graphite test was any indication seems reasonable.

Minutiae,minutiae...............what's a man to do?

Carry on.........please.

Geno

It occurs that it might be of interest to share a couple of pics that fairly represent the devil that drives me on the quest for consistent precision with this project. What is my rifle capable of? I mentioned in comments to Jimy in the process of testing loads that I shoot standard RF ammo before and after. It serves as a reminder of what I am chasing. So if the average is in the 2's for Wolf and 3's for Norma TAC, what is the best they have done at 20 yards?

Meet my own personal devil:

Norma Tac; 5 rounds @ 20 yards, and please note this particular groups was #2, or the last round after shooting the CF rounds that day.:



Likewise, the best of the Wolf was also the last round after a CF test. Wolf in a harsh mistress.

Those groups will keep the local squirrels a hiding their nuts !

One to two grains per round? I think I'm missing something.
Not being a smartass really.

There be 7,000 grains to a pound. Loads I've shot to date run in the .8-1.1 grain range.

Just checking for up dates

Jimy, glad you did that. I've a few tales to relate.

Best of news for resident loonies here on the 'Fire is this project does not require much in the way of tools. Yes, I've been using a shell holder crafted by Jimy and fiddling with a tapered size die contrived by a friend of mine, but the short version is this ammo can be reloaded with virtually no tooling whatsoever. Took a break from the humdrum a couple days back to load up another round of test ammo and try another invention of mine which I hope addresses or helps address the issue of consistent neck tension. Purpose of the next test is to evaluate different lubes and in the spirit of that I have 4 rounds of 4 shots each with the same powder charge but a different lube. They are 1)my standby SPG/graphite, 2)NASA lube, 3)Vaseline/graphite, 4)ALOX. I also loaded up 4 rounds with a .1 bump in the 800X charge, to 1.2 grains. I'm expecting somewhere around 900 fps with that load and note it is 100% load density w/o compression.

Having alleged that few if any tools are necessary for this and admitting that I use some, what are they and to what end?

I decap spent primers by use of the previously mentioned shell holder and a RCBS universal decapper. Simple enough....but not required. A small diameter nail, or punch on a properly prepared wood block will work as well..

Look at the top of the load block and you will see a two diameter hole, the center being thru bored. Works like a champ.



So with that done, how do I prime the cases? With a hammer and brass punch. The case is inverted and the web rests on the face of a punch in the vice. I get everything lined up, take a deep breath and with all my strength give it a gentle series of 3 taps. 9 times out of 10 the last tap will have a slight metallic "tink" and that signals the primer is seated. ~200 rounds into this and I still have all the fingers I started with. For what it's worth, the first few cases I primed when this started were done with the case upright on the anvil, punch in the case and tapping the case down on the primer. It works but does not fully seat the primer.



Well, it all works but being the nit picker I am and wanting it more-better and all, I have a few more simple tricks. None of this would have been necessary if years ago the industry had realized a need for such contrivances on the front end. Hell, they probably couldn't imagine the impact our recent clown president would have on the shooting industry is my guess.

Top of the press is the sized die mentioned earlier. Nothing really special but the .223" sizing allows for good neck tension and with the gentle kiss of a Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die one can seat the bullets with finger pressure. Problem with this approach is that from time to time the die would extract the bullet after the crimp was administered. Vexing that. Sometimes it takes serious finger pressure. Sometimes I use a small stick of soft pine or cedar and administer gentle admonishment upon the stubborn bullets, but I do NOT deform the bullets in so doing. Gentle is a key word here.

Down below the die you see a small section of PVC pipe, cut perfectly square and I know what you're thinking. "This guy had lost touch with reality!" Well, like I said, if the industry had been on the ball 80 years ago none of this would be happening. Slackers!

At the lower left you see a small round of wood and perhaps ask what it's for?




Well the wood's purpose is very straight forward. When I first tried the brass hockey puck to impart a wee roll crimp in the case after the bullet is seated I had problems with it not separating clean and square. It was causing about 1:4 bullets to cant slightly and that was defeating the purpose of the drill. That's where the PVC came in and the wood as well. I started to use a hole saw bit but thought better of it and due to dimensional incompatibility had to get creative.



The process is easy. Loaded round in the shell holder, wood then brass crimper on top, give it a very light bump against the size die and it all separates cleanly. Bullets are straight and do not spin in the case. Bullets currently in use mic at .2225" diameter on the drive band, cases are ball park .224" after fire forming. Hole in the brass is .223" on the dot and has a radiused juncture. Simple as dirt.

I will close this by saying that in the proposal forwarded to Hornady I suggested this could be done with simple 310 style tools (or less) as a vehicle for introducing the uninformed to the world of hand loading. Too, it was suggested that conventional dies and equipment would provide a path to high precision crafting. I'm thinking at present that it has been demonstrated this is a practical undertaking and for the most part very simple. The one serious demand in the whole undertaking is dimensional compatibility between bullets/brass and tooling. A creative mind is useful at this stage but if the industry does the right thing that won't be required either.

DD

I, for one, can only hope this thing takes off......................

and, for us Kommiefornia dwellers, that Hornady figures out a non-lead projectile for us. Heck, at the ranges I'd be interested in using it for bunnies and such, dang near a simple copper "wadcutter" cylinder would work. They seem to have worked quite accurately in .38's for years, why not a short range .22?

Thanks for the update Florida guy,

Geno

If the shellholder fits the rim why couldn’t you use the priming punch on the press?

I was thinking that a small diameter pipe cutting tool with a dulled cutter or a bullet cannelure tool might work as another way to crimp but it looks like you have solved that problem.

Dan,
just stumbled on an 8 lb jug of 800x, mostly full. Was wondering what kind of Trap load I was going to use it for...... then saw this post. I can't even count High enough for the number of possible loads in this package. I may have just set in a Life Time Supply....... who knew.

The rim is quite petite and it isn't obvious to me it would survive the stress of primer seating. Open question at this point and the brass supply is limited.

Most recent test was directed at a common charge with differing lubes. I don't know the findings to be definitive, but conclude they all work. No leading observed. The one interesting anomaly is found in the extreme outlier on the 1st Norma fouler target and for each CF group, which was the first shot of each group. I also found it interesting that in the last 15 shot group of Norma TAC the ES numbers were no different that with the CF rounds. Changes in lube apparently do leave a hint, and maybe the velocity deviations I've been experiencing are within norms for some RF ammo?

Because of the issues related in the last post about the crimp tool I will await the next round to see if that plays well. At the moment I am optimistic about the outcome.

If you'll note the Charge/Residue ratio in the upper left you will see it to be a fair bit less than the previous round. Not noted on the target is that the last round of the 1.2 800X series tickled the chronograph at 1116 fps and had a familiar crack to go with it. It was the 6 o'clock hit below the center dot in the target.



My .02 on it is that I have a field functional rifle for small game and plinking. Of course the testing is not done and I'll be back with more.......you knew that, right?

Still following (trolling?) here.

Thanks

Round 12 just concluded with some interesting results. I'll not bother you with another target picture, there was nothing exceptional therein.

Ran the standard 5 rounds of Norma TAC before and after and 4 groups of 5 with 1.0 grain of WW231. 2 groups were lubed with the SPG/graphite mix and the other 2 with NASA lube. They were all crimped easily with the tools pictured in the previous post and primed with Federal 100 (SPP) primers @ 20 yards.

Averages for each pair of groups:

SPG lube:....1066 fps, ES 50, Sd 20 w/ average group size of .75"
NASA lube:..1089 fps, ES 35, Sd 14 w/ average group size of .51"
Norma TAC:..1065 fps, ES 38, Sd 16 w/ average group size of .32"

Comparative averages with uncrimped loads w/same charge and CCI SPP:

SPG:...........1025 fps, ES 55, Sd 23 (2 groups)
NASA:.........1029 fps, ES 56, Sd 20 (1 group)

Having violated one of the basic tenants of research (changing more than one variable) I will revisit the exercise with ammo not crimped. I found it interesting that the average velocity increase was 41 fps for the SPG lube set and 60 fps for the NASA lube set. Whether this was from the primers or crimp I cannot confirm but suspect it is a primer influence more than anything else, if for no other reason than the ES/Sd numbers were lower. The small velocity advantage of NASA lube is consistent with the previous round and I suspect it will wind up my go to lube for this drill.

Only other interesting point was the amount of unburnt powder was greatly diminished to ~13% or 2.6 grains.

Forgot to mention that prior to lubing the ammo I put 10 rounds in a 10/22 mag and cycled them thru the action without a hiccup.

And the train keeps on rollin' along!

Dan, I may have missed it in an earlier post................what is NASA lube? Something you go scrounge off the launch mechanism at Canaveral?

Geno