Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders What is the difference between these special seasons & equipment allowed?

I think my statement, "The only advantage a crossbow has is that it is mechanically held at full draw"....covers your first two points......the third point isn't much of an issue since you can mount a scope on compound bows too....... the advantage a scope offers at 25 yards is NOT magnification, it's increased precision in aiming.....

Now, for the disadvantages........

Crossbows are loud, heavy, cumbersome and, offer little chance of a second shot if you miss the first time........

By the way.......An 85% let off compound, set at 65 pounds, requires only 9.75 pounds of force to hold it at full draw.......holding that bow at full draw for several minutes or more isn't much of a problem if you lower your drawing arm so your elbow rests against your side......I'm surprised you didn't know that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Now, pray tell......have you personally ever hunted with a crossbow??? Or, are your beliefs based on propaganda served up by the various bowhunting organizations???

Years ago, I was rangemaster, and, later, president of the largest bowhunting club in NE Oklahoma.......we were against crossbows too......we repeated the same propaganda you hear today......."crossguns", 70 yard effective range, pinpoint accuracy, ect.......but, guess what, less than 5% of us had ever shot a crossbow.....we bought into that propaganda, and spread it as gospel......but we were wrong......

Years later, due to a shoulder injury, I could no longer shoot a conventional bow.......I basically sat out bowseason for a couple of years, then, reluctantly applied for a crossbow permit......I bought an Excalibur crossbow and started shooting it.....yep, sure enough, it was easy to shoot......but it was a pain in the butt to handle in a treestand.....it was LOUD.....and the deer had to be just as close for an effective shot.....not exactly the magic killing machine the antis would have you believe!

Is a crossbow easier to use than a compound.....absolutely ........is a compound easier to use than a recurve or longbow......you bet........is a recurve or longbow easier to use than a spear.....oh yeah......is a spear easier to use than a club or rock.......

So, the questions are......where do we draw the line, who makes that decision, do we decide based on fact or propaganda???

Pennsylvania has two ML seasons, a week long antler less only in mid October, and 2 to 3 week Buck or doe coming in the day after Christmas.

The early season allows the use of "any muzzle loading firearm", while the late season is restricted to flint lock ignition only.

They had, for a few years, toyed with the idea of eliminating the restrictions on the late season. I guess they finally figured on leaving well enough alone, so the late season remains flint lock only.

In archery season, crossbows are allowed to be used by people with a physical disability. They have been thinking of losing that restriction.

I don't hunt with a bow, so I really don't have a dog in that fight. But I was part of the outcry over the muzzle loading deal, and I can tell you why.

The reason for the Game Commission wanting to change was for the simple plan of selling more ML (or archery) stamps, thereby increasing revenue.

I enjoy the late ML season because of the solitude. It's not about killing deer for me. Just being out with little chance of others goofing me up, or disturbing me is what I like.

I find it much harder to be enthusiastic towards regular gun season, mainly because any body with access to a license and a gun is out there. The flint restriction requires that if you're gonna hunt that season, you have to apply some time into learning a little about the guns.

I'd guess the same applies to standard bows versus crossbows. Long time bow hunters don't want me buying a crossbow and stumbling around goofing up their hunts.

Limiting a season limits the number to those who are willing to take the time needed for preparation. It's that simple IMHO.
7mm

Ironically, years ago when I hunted deer and elk, I worked my way into a longbow. I enjoyed the challenge. Sense against sense, cunningness to kill and muscle required to do it!
The 65% overdraws came along and whamo, the elk woods had more Bowhunters, not Archers.It was not a positive for the archery season. Now many areas are bull or buck only and shorter, with other hunts coinciding .At the same time, the crossbow guys were lurking. And no way, to crossbows, regardless of The bow you shot. But now, with all the high tech compound stuff, I think it only fair, for the crossbow guys to get in on it. Now the "low tech" shoe is on the compounds foot!
I agree with smokepole about this argument ;if you critisize any hunting method the antis will split us being BS!. this seems to only be used by the advancing techno "trophy" hunters
I think gonhunting also makes a great point about where to limit ourselves? Truth is we as hunters are watched, And how does the public precieve hunters?Is it a tradition, skill, FAIR? Why is it that some think compounds,inlines,rangefinders,long range sniper rifles,etc.. are good for the season which they hunt? Is it because it extents there killing range? Which allows them to be sucessful? But what of the sucess of the season? Were primitive seasons not started to create a challange for hunters, When you have bows which kill effectively at the same ranges as slug guns, Why should you have a special bow season? And a slug gun which as capable as a muzzleloader, Why have a muzzle season? If we do not self regulate for the good of the hunting HERITAGE, which lends itself towards traditions, Not technology, than we will surly lose what support there is for public hunting, which will lead increasingly toward gov. species management! Which if you havent looked around, is coming!
What was the question??????

Hound

As I stated in another thread.......how the seasons started is water under the bridge.......in my state, muzzleloader season and archery season are now more than just extra time for guys to play Daniel Boone and Tonto in the deer woods......the wildlife dept uses these seasons as tools to control the deer population......

One thing I find interesting in all these technology discussions......have you ever stopped to think when modern firearms seasons were started that the guys who wrote the regulations couldn't forsee the advances in firearms??? I hunt with several single shot pistols that are more accurate than ANY rifle available back in the early years of deer seasons!!!

Funny, I've never heard a guy carrying a lever action 30-30 complain about the next guy carrying a high tech scoped 7mm magnum......wonder why???

Maybe it's because he is more concerned with hunting than with what the other guy is using.....there are a few folks around here that could take a lesson from that guy!

OOOORRRR maybe your not listening to the folks complaining about the 30.30 not being big enough to adequately take big game MMMMMM. Killed afew elk and deer with a 30.30 myself through the years .
look at the discussion about the 270 being to small for elk ?I have to ask you . what size of rifle do you think those that are complaining are shooting ?

everyone complains about something . centerfire hunters complain about the archers . archers complain about the bird hunters and center fire hunters and wheel bows . bird hunters complain about the cattleman . Traditional muzzleloaders complain about the modern muzzleloading hunters .

center fire hunters want the archery season shortened and complain about the wounding of game . Archers want the bird season changed so as not to have the game stirred up just before archery season begins . They also complain about the wounding of game by the center fire guys

And all of that complaining and in-fighting gains us all exactly what?

Actually, I don't have anything against crossbow hunters and I never said I did - I believe Indiana allows them for disabled hunters and changed the regulations to allow them in late bow season for all hunters. The more the merrier I say.
BUT, I personally have never seen anyone mount a scope on a compound bow; YMMV.
I shoot right handed, so can't hold the bow with the left, and hold my right arm against my side after drawing - I can't shoot that way. My right arm is always up because the back of my right hand is always against my right cheek. I'll be trying to figure that one out on the block target, though. If'n it works, I'll be thanking you!

Well something stinks, I guess im to slow to figure out what it is!
Take Oregon, the Dept. of f&g reports every year that license and tag sales are down.Which goes hand in hand with the national reports that hunter numbers are dropping. Yet in Oregon, it is increasing in difficulty , every year to draw a tag for good areas to hunt.Bull elk in many areas takes years to obtain a tag. Same with buck. And in the Archer hunts areas that were once prime are now draw tag only. Muzzleload seasons which when first started had excess tags now are difficult to draw. There is one area that now has a rifle cow elk hunt to remove the herd that opens and runs all thru archery season.which goes completely against the grain of not enough game animals but shows the dept does not beleive Archery to be a tool to remove enough game. So if hunter numbers are falling, yet the game population is also dropping, then what is going up?
Other than license and tag fees!

well i cant say for Oregon .
However I can say that the Dept often states the same thing here . But when you look at the Numbers of overall hunter populations they are actually up considerably . that�s why there are more folks out hunting then ever
So whats the deal ?
Simple yes hunter numbers are down . However that�s all how you look at it . Here in Idaho they base for saying hunter numbers have dropped id because the % of hunter numbers to general population numbers is what�s down .
thats what i have been told anyway

I find a post like this a bit interesting. I am a Life Member of SCI & the NRA. I belong to & support almost every non-profit hunting organization. I contribute substancial time & money to support hunting & shooting & prevent the anti's from taking my & your rights. When was the last time most of you that are complaining the most about a so called "Traditional" ML season did something positive for hunting or shooting? Do you belong to SCI or NRA or support other hunting organizations? When was the last time you took a kid hunting(not your own)? If you want to make a positive contribution to your sport get involved in any non-profit hunting or shooting organization. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm still waiting for a clear response as to why my first reply was off-target.

Here is again:

I do not understand people who are unwilling to put limits on the equipment used to "hunt".
You speak of tradition, challenge, sport. Then every chance you get to buy something that makes it easier to accomplish the KILL you go for it?
If anyone says, Hey wait a minute, maybe we shouldnt do that just because we legally can, You cry,division, antihunters!
So vmanimrod, Lets just use your reasoning and Have one big happy season, 50 cal sniper rifles, longbows,shotguns and clubs if one wants. Everybody hunts together .one season, then we can all be united. Because after all its not about how you do it its about killing game. Thats all that matters.At least thats what i have gathered from reading the long range hunters post.
What say you?
Why not one season, anything goes?

safari_hound;

I hunt with a recurve bow, shoot instinctive, and use Zwickeys.

I hunt with a .50 caliber flintlock.

I hunt (in nasty weather during ML season) with an open breach T/C System 1 SS/walnut inline.

I hunt with a .300 Savage 99, receiver peep or Sith mounted El Paso Weaver K2.5.

I hunt with a CZ 550 FS 9.3x62.

Fo small game, I use a 1932 vintage, factory peep sighted, Winchester Model 60A .22 singleshot and my grandfather's 12 gauge Lefever SxS or a Remington Model 11 Sportsman 16 gauge.

For varmints, it's a .221 Fireball in a Remington 700 LS.

Now, explain to me how I don't use equipment with restrictions?

Since when was I a long range hunter? Have I taken game at long range? Yes. At at mere feet as well.

I restate my earlier sentiment, that the only thing that ever really comes out of these "traditional vs. non-traditional" arguments is venom and division between hunters.

Your post illustrated that point for me quite nicely, thank you.

I believe this is why we as hunters need to be involved with our hunting & shooting organizations to make the correct ethical decisions consistent with fair chase & not to just satisfify special interest groups. I have found that most that bitch the most do not support our most basic hunting & shooting organizations such as SCI & NRA. Even if you don't like these(I pity those that don't) there are many others. As I posted earlier rather than trolling for conflicts within our own hunting community do something postive. The anti's love this sort of nonsense.

tbear, your point about the need to be involved with hunting and shooting orgs. is right on, but....someone please name one instance where antis have prevailed, won a victory, or whatever, due to debates or arguments between hunters on equipment, methods, or whatever.

Debate is healthy, it makes us think about why we hunt and what we're doing. It's also possible to oppose all the BS put out there by antis while still debating, arguing, etc. amonst ourselves.

One instance?

Easy: Sunday hunting in Virginia.

Want another?

Just reading this whole thread makes me want to vomit.

If the game species will bear it, nay, most time NEED it, (Whitetail Deer in VA) who the Hell can be so sanctimonious as to THINK their WAY is the BEST or Correct way! BS!

I like and do most ways hunting, modern and trad.

These arguments WILL devide and destroy OUR sport!

We will hang together our HANG serarately (to quote a wise man)

IMHO

DDD

DDD;

You ain't alone.

Hey, how about checking the Sunday hunting thread up at the Hunter's Campfire? We could use you...

Will do Nimrod

VA, I was born in Va and lived there most of my life. I lost track of the Sunday hunting issue though.

Are you telling me: 1) that antis prevailed and kept Sunday hunting illegal? and 2) it was because some guys were arguing about whether only traditional muzzleloaders should be allowed during the muzzleloader season?

OK, maybe #2 wasn't a fair question, if #1 is right, why was Sunday hunting in VA defeated?

And I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really don't know why it was defeated.