Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Featherweight bolt knob

Did all pre 64 featherweights have the hollow bolt knob? Im looking at one and it has a solid bolt?

Early pre'64 featherweights had a solid bolt handle. If you will check Rule's or Whitaker's book you can find out when the hollow bolt handle was introduced.

I have both above references, but not handy at the moment . From recollection, the Pre '64 Model 70 Featherweight was introduced in the 1952-53 period as the hollow bolt handle era was morphing in for the entire Model 70 line. That would be somewhere in the 200,000 to 300,000 serial range. Sorry at the moment I can't be more specific, but likely someone along with the Roger Rule book under their pillow, or to recite by verse! Also the notation, your rifle should be in 308 Winchester if in that early Featherweight 'solid bolt handle' era and original.
To my mind, all other things being equal, such an early 'FW' rifle slightly more desirable than the later editions. To me the only downside of the Featherweight is the lower 'survival-pristine' incidence of the alloy bottom metal; quite subject to scratching & general finish wear.
Good luck and...
My take

The bolts with hollow knobs are referred to as "Type-III" bolts. They were introduced in 1952 on the Featherweight rifles, but almost immediately became standard on all rifles. The Type-III bolt is identical to the Type-II bolt, other than the hollow knob. Both Type-II and Type-III bolts have scope eyepiece relief on the handle lever. The Type-I bolt has a solid knob and a round handle lever with no relief for a scope eyepiece. There are a few other very minor variations within the types, but these are the three main bolt styles on pre-64 model 70s.

Type-I - 1936-1944
Type-II - 1947-1952
Type-III - 1952-1963

Thanks guys. The one I am lookinf at dates 1953. So it is possible that it should have the solid bolt knob?

If it's a 308 and the serial #'s on the bolt and receiver match, it's right....

I take only minor exception to the 'serial number visible on bolt' comment. In my personal experience, for a variety of reasons, more often than not, serial numbers no longer visible on 'pre64' bolts. Normally lightly inscribed, these were intended for keeping matching assemblies together at the factory. Such rather than additional assurance to purchasers of new rifles. Most bolt SNs have simply disappeared (wear on aesthetic removal) over time. If other factors above look right, short of a 'new in box' scenario, I'd not be deterred by lack of visible SN .
It would be interesting to have pre64win weigh in with his experience concerning this matter. If I'd followed the "No visible bolt SN = Tilt" rule, I'd have missed some very nice rifles!!!
My take

Not to hijack the OP's thread (Which NEVER happens on the 'Fire ), but I have often wondered about the following. Since the serial number on the bolt was clearly put on by hand and by a not very sophisticated means, wouldn't adding a number, or even erasing then adding the "correct" number be something very easy to do by an unscrupulous person?

I will check for a number , it a pretty worn rifle so it might not be visible

I have owned very many pre 64 Win 70's and handled that many more. We are talking in the hundreds. The number isn't coming off due to wear. I have yet to see a renumbered bolt match the font etc of the win factory. The must have had a super heavy duty industrial engraver, at least twice the thickness of any engraver I have ever seen. The hollow vs solid is not an issue. Come the end of the month they assembled guns to make quota with whatever parts were available. They were just guns. They sold serial #2 for heaven's sake. I am not sure about model 70 #1 whether they sold it or did anything special with it.

The ones that I have seen that did not have a number were obviously ground off and I have seen a few of those.

sbrmike, I remember an article a number of years ago where they found M70 #1. I think the article was in The American Rifleman. If I recall correctly, it was someone's "truck gun" in a western state for a number of years. Again, if I recall correctly, the owner and the gunsmith kept looking for the serial #, looking right past the "1". Finally, it dawned on them that the "1" was the serial #! Point is, they sold the first one they ever made. Now, we go over every detail like archeologists!

A bit off topic, but an interesting perspective on this passion of ours. He is part of something I wrote in a PM:

Winchester made 40,795 M70 rifles in 1954 (Rule, p57.) They made 3900 Between April 1 and May 3 of that year, the period when one of mine was made (Rule, p50.) According to a 1954 calendar, not counting weekends, that is 22 work days. I don't know if they were working weekends or how many shifts, but one eight-hour shift, five days a week is 177/day, 22/hour, a rifle every 2 minutes and 42 seconds. My point is they were cranking out M70's, not to mention other models of rifles and shotguns. I know we tend to speak of Pre '64's as "lovingly coddled," but those folks were trying to make a living, and I'm sure they didn't expect their work to be given the levels of forensic examination they now receive.

I will venture a guess that although obliterated, there is a trace of a partial number. That is how I should have phrased it originally. As pointed out it is very easy to remove with emory paper and leave no trace. It is very hard to replicate the original electro-pencil engraving.

Re: Bolt SN:

I have one I purchased from a trusted fire member. If the rifle was used, it was less than a little. The bolt SN is there, but you have to look hard for it.

Dad bought me my first back in perhaps 1960. A friend of the family worked for Winchester and when the stock cracked he took it back to have it replaced. It came back with a new stock and the bolt jeweled. Never prove that one today to a collector or Rule. "No, can't be." Yea, it could.

Only way to replicate the electro-pencil marking is to use an electro-pencil. BTW I have never seen a rifle with the electro-pencil marking worn off, the marking is brurned into the metal it takes lots of polishing to remove it. The metal in the marked area is actually
somewhat hardened.

^^^??? I think I just learned something. I have never looked closely at how the number was created. I could tell it was hand written, and I always assumed with a vibrating marker like you can buy most anywhere. This marking is mechanical, like many small center punch marks close together. The metal is not heated beyond a minuscule amount due to deformation. It would be incredibly hard to measure the change in temperature. Gunswizard, are you saying an "electro-pencil" is a different process and heats the metal much more?

A vibro-etcher uses a reciprocating carbide tool with a point, the marking is a series of dots closely spaced. The electro-pencil uses an electric arc, the part is placed on a plate which carries one side of the current and the pencil has the other side of the current. The handle of the pencil part is well insulated and the part will be hot enough after marking that you won't want to touch it. We used this identical machine in the toolroom to mark jigs and fixtures, it is old technology and has been around for quite a while.

Gunswizard, Thanks for the explanation. I learned something new today.

A controversy brewing from my comment concerning bolt numbering. My comments relate to personal experience with interest in Model 70 rifles since the eighties. A Life Member of NRA since 1958 (now Benefactor Member for years). Sustained primary interests since mid-fifties teenager, bolt rifles.
Never tried to annotate my Winchester library to account for the number of Model 70ies I’ve examined. Likely not amounting to “hundreds”. I examine those amounting to some prospective interest in acquiring. I don’t claim ‘expertise’. I do claim ‘experience’ in context of that which has served me well over some happy decades. I do claim ownership of my hypothesis shared above which has worked well for me in understanding the Model 70 and provided a good working formula for my acquisitions in context of “hard to argue with success!”
I don’t know that the ‘sampling’ examined in forming my hypothesis in any manner empirically (statistically) balanced. I do know that it has brought me some fine, bolt-unserialed, rifles! I do know that most have been subjected to a set of Foster headspace gauges under my tenure. Such as routine with most of my susceptible rifles. I do know that most of mine are well within tolerance and such annotated on my XL spreadsheet detailing my guns. That matter and the equally important matter, as noted in a post above, of the right ‘nuanced’ bolt; correctly matching its host rifle characteristics.
One of the no longer whispered confidences concerning the Model 70, particularly within sub-era; parts fungibility. Our Seventy Models so well-crafted over the decades, in many instances, replacement parts with ‘drop-in’ functionality. Thus heralded and coveted “all original” specimen, may indeed possess genetically mixed heritage. Having exercised collector ‘due diligence’, far more likely to achieve positive results than relying on bolt serialization which, if present, might have been ‘authored’ by any scallywag at any point of time! ‘Ultra-clear’ renditions, particularly suspect!
So now, excuse please as I climb down off my soapbox and rack out; late evening even having reached SoCal.
Here unrepented views that have worked well for me and…
My take

I don't understand much of the post above. If the "hundreds" comment is a jab at me, I have a "Bound Book" to back it up. I will stand by my assessment: If there is no number, someone scrubbed it off, and we all know why.

Sir, you are flat wrong. The type II bolt is transitional, it looks like the Type III but does not have a relief for the leg of the Type III Safety. Type III were originally solid, the hollow came later, but both are Type III.

I follow what y


I follow what you are saying but there are actually MORE that just three types of pre' 64 m70 bolts handles..

Type 1- Pre war 1936 to 1944 high stepped bolt root solid knob.

Type 2- 1947 to 1949- Transition period bolts with lowered bolt root to clear scopes but not cut for late paddle safety clearance.

Type 3- 1949 to 1954 -Post transition. Low bolt root,Solid bolt knob and clearance for late style safety.

Type 4- 1955 to 1963 - Sames shape as type 3 with hollow knob.

sbmike, no disrespect intended. My remark merely playing off your presumed factual statement. Such affirming whatever expertise garnered by examining “hundreds” of Model 70 rifles, my experience within that category to be less.
As to your remark concluding in “… and we all know why.” My turn not to clearly understand your words. While I might speculate, could you please amplify to explain clearly ‘why’.
Thanks!
iskra

Missing bolt replaced with another.

I haven't read through all the posts, but I will answer the question and say yes!!!!!! It is entirely possible to have a 1953 (especially an early '53) fwt with a solid "ovoid" bolt knob....I actually used to own an early 1953 308 fwt with a solid bolt knob. Bought it from the original owner and it was entirely 100% original... Rule states, this "did not occur on many early featherweights". Like I'm assuming Jason pointed out, this feature was referred to as the "type III-3". Rule also further states that only about half of the rifles made between 1952 and the mid part of 1953 had the bolt handles drilled: In his own words, "The drilled bolt knob improvement started type III-3 at approximately 225,000 (1952), but was slow to capture the full production line. Less than 50% of rifles manufactured between 225,000 and 268,000 were drilled with the bolt "hole", INCLUDING the featherweights, for which it was intended".....

battue, I've seen some that were very well used and you had to pull out a magnifying glass, just to get a hint of the serial #. I don't think Winchester put a lot of thought or time into scribbling the serial # on to these rifles. They were not put there for collectors to squabble over after 70 years had passed, they put them there for the initial assembly of the rifle. Nothing more, nothing less at that time....

Communicated with an individual who is very knowledgeable about most things M70 re. issues raised in this thread. fwiw....

- it is VERY unusual for a bolt to be unmarked, there should be at least traces of a serial # (unless, of course, the number was intentionally removed).
-the number on the bolt was not used to track parts during assembly as the bolt was serialized AFTER the fully assembled rifle was proofed. the serialization occurred at the same time that the Winchester definitive proof (W over P) was applied to the receiver and barrel.
- a '52 or '53 Fwt., 308 Win with the hollow bolt knob is a type 111-3 action.

Personally, would not own a M70 without a bolt serialized to the receiver....

Ok, serial # placement on bolt; hoping you guys can shed some light on this.....

1955 featherweight, serial # placed below flat on anti-bind bump, so clearly visible with bolt closed. Additionally, dots seemed spaced further apart than typical, enough to appear quite digitized; and last digit 5 had extra dot closing it's tail to where it resembled 6; receiver was stamped 5. Poor attempt at refurbished bolt, or apprentice engraver at the factory ?. I passed on the rifle, but often wondered.

Thanks in advance for your input.

FWIW I have two original 308 70 FWTS with solid bolt handles. One is in the 245000 range the other 266000.

And the 300 H&H I just got has a hollow bolt knob.

Jkob,

Any chance of a new thread and pictures about the "new to you" 300 H&H? For some reason, the H&H chambered Pre '64 rifles really intrigue me even more than the more common calibers.