Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Defensive Training-Short Distance

Good thread w/ some interesting replies. Not missing is critical, not missing quickly while controlling multiple shots on multiple targets should be the goal before working on tactics. A sub 2 second Bill drill is the holy grail. My best from concealment, aiwb, is 2.2 secs. I have broken 2.0 secs only a few times using an open carry ALS. I think the Bill drill is the best 6 shot test when fire cold from concealment.


mike r

I think Oheremicus, back in the day, was some sort of operator. That "stand your ground and hit your target" mindset was commonly taught to operators back in the day, vs today's "move and shoot" mindset.

That was the least objectionable thing he said.

I agree with much you say here. My room clearing example was just that, not a suggestion that people take room clearing classes. However, all the skills you learn in room clearing can be applied to the concrete jungle; cover, concealment, and movement.

just to add more

action shooting is accurate shooting and not precision shooting, the target is rather large and is "weighted" in importance as much as speed. (accuracy)

a good way to build par time muscle memory without a timer is simply select the target such as an IPSC or paper plate and select a distance

from your presentation shoot sighted pairs (for those who are sensitive to double tap) increasing your speed until you miss at that distance. Slow down until you are hitting 80-90% This is your internal clock at that range

The time increases with distance because while the target size is still constant will appear smaller. (obvious I know) but it is difficult to hold the sights for most shooters.


I believe the best and the one technique the civilian shooter can master is the speed rock. This goes with the percentages and while all the other stuff is fun..........

Blue - you mention par times of 2 seconds, etc. Is that from concealment, or race gun holsters? Carry ammo or light game gun ammo?

I tried the Bill Drill yesterday, starting from concealment with hands at my sides I wasn't able to get below 2.40 seconds, probably need to work on drawing faster because that was most of the time. Splits were ~.20 give or take a little. Thoughts?

I'm using a smartphone app too that doesn't always pick up all the shots, so I had to discard about half of the times I shot.

No doubt Bleu's response to this will be ridicule...this forum gets a bit repetitive.

There are those who feel only their type of training is valid; this forum is full of them. But there can be any number of training regimines that work well regardless of whether they make sense to us, whether we like them, or whether they fit with the "hive mind". Example: the Israeli technique for handgun combat seems foolish by Western standards, yet it fits their society, and has proven to be more than adequate in the real world...Few get more actual shooting incidents than the Israeli's.

Various US military units have changed their training to something similar to what you describe above. I remember reading an article about special ops training (don't recall which unit), and due to the new prevalence of hard plate body armor many are now training to put their first round into the pelvis, then follow up with a head shot, basically skipping the upper chest shot altogether.

John Farnam refers to your opponent (BG, or target, etc) as "the problem" and your shooting is merely working the problem until it's no longer a problem. He used a 3D target held up with a balloon in one of 3 chambers decades ago. Not until you hit the supporting balloon would the target fall, and you have solved the problem. Chambers were abdominal, chest, head. Most would start off with two shots to the chest. Then you had the choice of head or abdominal cavity to find the "solution". It was good training...not difinitive, but good.

So I see nothing wrong with that type of training. Personally I will shoot two shots to each point of aim because a second shot to the same point of aim (as demonstrated by Bleu's Bill Drill) takes but a fraction of a second, while changing your point of aim is 2-3x as long as split times in between rounds.

It doesn't take drugs...There are countless cases of highly motivated individuals who were not on drugs soaking up crazy numbers of bullets and continuing to fight.

Meaningful hits are of paramount importance. But what if it takes too long to get them?

You cannot improve what you don't measure. Handgun combat shooting, whether you like it or not, will come down to speed & accuracy; which is why all the combat shooting games score based on speed and accuracy. I would want to measure both elements, not just one.

Blue, you owe me a keyboard.

If the premise is that firing more than one round into the same place is bad training, then yes....I will definitely ridicule that.

Bill Drills, Blake Drills, the Accelerator....None of the drills I listed have anything to do with training for scenarios with body armor or anything else. They're about gun handling. I'm having a completely different conversation than you and O. I'm not talking about shooting different parts of people, or any parts of people.

But to say that it's "not good training" to shoot something like a Bill Drill because it doesn't involve also shoot the target in the face or dick is absurd.

I hope you know you just ruined the internet for a lot of people. Buy you a beer if we ever cross paths.

HAaaaaa lol

Judge, " I can understand why you shot the guy 3 times, but the whole magazine"



Bill Drill teaches continuity, no mental hiccups, and a really good check to see if your gun is working. (personally i like it because it teaches the trigger finger when the disconnector has engaged in a 1911 and when the slack is gone in a glock something very hard with single shots.)

It's the standard given to me to use from a no-retention kydex holster. Standard ammo. Some of the 115grain factory ammo I've had wasn't strong enough to use in competition. For drills like this it won't make much, if any, difference.

.2 splits puts you at a 1.4 draw...? That's pretty quick from concealment, at least it would be for me. I'd be looking at your splits. What are you shooting?

Getting your draw down to a 1.2ish and splits to .17ish gets you real close.

___________________________

What I've found is that people can shoot at 7 yards MUCH faster than they think they can. When I shoot a Bill Drill I'm pulling the trigger almost as fast as I can.

There are two things that slow people down on drills like this, and they're sort of related.

Try this.... Set up a target and load up two mags of twelve rounds. Fire three sets of 6 just into the berm beside the target. Don't focus on anything at all, just death grip the gun and run the trigger as fast as you can. Do it with your eyes closed if you find yourself focusing on a "target" on the berm. Pay attention to how that feels. Then aim the gun at the target, focus your eyes entirely on the target (no sight focus at all), and fire the last six rounds at that same pace. With a good grip and assuming you're not shooting some sort of crazy hot round you'll probably put all six rounds in the A box.

People normally don't shoot that fast because (1) They're not confident that they can control the recoil and keep the rounds in the A zone and (2) They're over aiming.
--The first drill solves the first problem and starts addressing the second problem.

Then do this to help finish solving the second problem....

At 7 yards fire three or four rounds with perfect sight alignment at the center of the target (no time limit, put them all in one hole). Next, get that same sight picture, but deviate your front sight (front sight only, don't move the rear of the gun at all) all the way to the left of the rear notch. Fire three or four more rounds for accuracy. Do the same thing to the right.

What I've found doing this sight deviation drill is that at 7 yards all I need is to see most of my fiber optic in the rear notch. I have have the front sight 1/3 out of the rear notch and still get A hits. That's what finally convinced me that I was over aiming. You'll lose a lot of time on drills like this by looking for a good sight picture, even if you're just barely looking for it, for each shot. If your splits are .2s I'd bet that's happening. Do this drill and you'll allow yourself to stay target focused and just see the front sight moving around in the A box in your "blurry vision". That little bit of time you make up on each of six shots ends up being substantial.




That's why I rarely even recommend them anymore. They can be so finicky that you just spend your range session farting around with your phone and being frustrated with that instead of focusing on your shooting.

So rather than just enter into some gentlemanly debate, where you can educate E and possibly others you just go straight to ridicule?

TOTALLY agree...and I get that...I didn't mean to give the impression that I see no use to those types of drills, because I do; and I use those types of drills myself.



I guess every other thread on the "Handguns Forum" turning into a pizzin contest by page 3 doesn't get old for you.

No, I'm not going to try and convince O of anything. I'm just going to tell him that I think he's wrong, but at least I did it in a funny way that would bring joy to the forum.

For the sake of the masses you're so concerned about I'll start with this...


The notion that you should shoot someone one time with a "decent" hit, then assess if it worked and then move on to another target area is ridiculous. I'm not sure where to start, but I have faith that anyone who would understand what I would say can figure out how absurd that is for themselves.

What pissing match are you referring to?

The one GG just started. He's the only one pissing and moaning ...

Yeah, I figured someone was going to go there when I typed my reply. Seriously not trying to start a pizzin contest, and I did my best to be respectful even while chastising Bleu...Just trying to get people to think. Don't we have enough contentious threads on here?

Bleu can be pretty funny, but unlike Deflave, he has a brain beyond his humor...knows his chit, and IMO has a lot to offer in the way of damn good advise. His post in response to Yondering's inquiry about Bill Drills is just awesome and great information. Wish he would have put that much thought to responding to E, even though Otheremericus could have used a LOT more tact in his response.

Everyone knows that GG is a combat hardened warpig who outshoots his local swat team. He is obviously above debate w/ someone who has actually trained in the current century. And I would bet that De Flave can outshoot and outhink GG while drinking his 6th beer.

Carry on Walter Mitty.


mike r