The 30-06 beats the 308 in the velocity arena across the board. It's just that the difference is small enough to be irrelevant. Real world performance is nearly identical.
Last edited by Armednfree; 06/19/17.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
In a .30-06 length action, that extra .1" would be a big "don't care".
No, bullet length affects max charge in all cartridges. There is no scenario where you can substitute data for one length of bullet for another, even if they're the same weight, unless you adjust OAL accordingly. This is reloading 101, by the way.
Also, the cartridges don't have the same MAP. You can insist otherwise all you like, but you will continue to be wrong.
You say you've taked most of your game with a 7mm RM and 175g loads. A .30-06/180g load comes closer to matching that than a .308 Win can do.
Neither gets particularly close to duplicating what a 7RM 175 can do. It's got a .310 sectional density. To duplicate that, a .308" requires a 206gr bullet. There are essentially no .308" hunting bullets that heavy, and of those few that do exist, you'd need a .300WM to match the velocity of the 7mm mag. And you'd end up with 20-30% more recoil for the same terminal performance. Plus the best softs aren't available in those weights in .308, or are only available as round noses. So really you can't duplicate the performance even with a .300WM.
But I would happily swap my 7RM for a 7WSM or 7SAUM if either was well supported.
You say you've taked most of your game with a 7mm RM and 175g loads. A .30-06/180g load comes closer to matching that than a .308 Win can do.
Neither gets particularly close to duplicating what a 7RM 175 can do. It's got a .310 sectional density. To duplicate that, a .308" requires a 206gr bullet. There are essentially no .308" hunting bullets that heavy, and of those few that do exist, you'd need a .300WM to match the velocity of the 7mm mag. And you'd end up with 20-30% more recoil for the same terminal performance. Plus the best softs aren't available in those weights in .308, or are only available as round noses. So really you can't duplicate the performance even with a .300WM.
But I would happily swap my 7RM for a 7WSM or 7SAUM if either was well supported.
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
In a .30-06 length action, that extra .1" would be a big "don't care".
No, bullet length affects max charge in all cartridges. There is no scenario where you can substitute data for one length of bullet for another, even if they're the same weight, unless you adjust OAL accordingly. This is reloading 101, by the way.
Also, the cartridges don't have the same MAP. You can insist otherwise all you like, but you will continue to be wrong.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
The "handicap" from a longer bullet is about the same in either case since the bullets are the same diameter, and thus the loss of powder space is exactly the same. Twist and turn however you like, but the fact of the matter is that there is almost no performance difference between the two cartridges, and zero practical difference. if you think .30-06 is good, then you have to think .308 is better because it does the same thing with less weight and/or recoil.
You say you've taked most of your game with a 7mm RM and 175g loads. A .30-06/180g load comes closer to matching that than a .308 Win can do.
Neither gets particularly close to duplicating what a 7RM 175 can do. It's got a .310 sectional density. To duplicate that, a .308" requires a 206gr bullet. There are essentially no .308" hunting bullets that heavy, and of those few that do exist, you'd need a .300WM to match the velocity of the 7mm mag. And you'd end up with 20-30% more recoil for the same terminal performance. Plus the best softs aren't available in those weights in .308, or are only available as round noses. So really you can't duplicate the performance even with a .300WM.
But I would happily swap my 7RM for a 7WSM or 7SAUM if either was well supported.
Originally Posted by Armednfree
The 30-06 beats the 308 in the velocity arena across the board. It's just that the difference is small enough to be irrelevant. Real world performance is nearly identical.
If you are talking factory ammo, all bets are off. If you are talking about handloading a "modrn" version of the .30-06, which is how this discussion got started, you would have to assume a "modern" pressure equalling the .308'd 62,000psi or maybe the 270 Win's 65,000 PSI. Then the difference would be clear to all.
As it stands, nothing prevents handloders from exceeding the purely arbitrary 60,000 PSI SAAMI MAP for the .30-06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
You're not talking about handloading "modern" .30-06, you're talking about loading an over-pressure .30-06 +P or whatever you want to call it.
Everyone knows that literally any cartridge can have it's performance improved by increasing the pressure beyond SAAMI spec. That's obvious. It's also pretty obvious it's not safe to do without either a) having the brass and gun manufacturers OK the higher pressure or b) doing your own engineering calculations that show the higher pressure is safe, with substantial margin. As far as I know, no one has ever done either of those things for qa .30-06 +P. I don't have a problem with hotrodding cartridges, and the .30-06 is a really good candidate because there are lots of easy-to-fix bad decisions designed into it (which was my original point). But let's not skip the safe engineering part, and let's not pretend the result is the same thing as the original cartridge.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
* * * * The "handicap" from a longer bullet is about the same in either case since the bullets are the same diameter, and thus the loss of powder space is exactly the same. * * * *
Mr. L Bob - I can't find the thread or I'd quote our own Mule Deer (J B). He has said more than once that "seating bullets deeper does NOT take up powder space".
There is such a thing as 'compressed' charges. Yes, there is a limit as to how much we can compress a charge. Using slow burning powders I have used several 'compressed' powder charges. I have, and still use 1 load which does, seated bullets in cases where there is NO MORE room for powder.
Some have reported having bullets pushed back out 'some' from excessive compression. What you are talking about > .1 length < is a non issue.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
* * * * The "handicap" from a longer bullet is about the same in either case since the bullets are the same diameter, and thus the loss of powder space is exactly the same. * * * *
Mr. L Bob - I can't find the thread or I'd quote our own Mule Deer (J B). He has said more than once that "seating bullets deeper does NOT take up powder space".
There is such a thing as 'compressed' charges.
Good Lord, this thread is full of interior ballistics absurdity from you and coyote. Certainly you can compress powder. But that doesn't mean that losing powder space (or usable case capacity or whatever you want to call the space inside the case (really, fire-formed case) not taken up by the bullet) has no effect. Spend a little time with any interior ballistic simulator, and you'll find that when you lose space but keep the powder charge the same two things happen:
1) pressures go up and 2) velocities go up, but not as much as they would have gone up if you loaded to the new higher pressure with the bullet farther out
So any time you occupy case capacity with the bullet, the overall performance of your cartridge in terms of what velocity/pressure combinations it can achieve gets worse. Now in this case, since the amount of space lost to the longer Speer boat tail bullet vs. the shorter Nosler is exactly the same, the effect on the two cartridges is exceptionally close to the same. But there is an effect.
You're not talking about handloading "modern" .30-06, you're talking about loading an over-pressure .30-06 +P or whatever you want to call it.
No, I’m talking about loading to SAMMI pressures. The .30-06 does what the 308 Win can do but at lower pressures.
“Winchester also lists a 190g .30-06 load at 2750fps. Velocity and energy at 300 yards is listed at 2339fps/2309fpe with a 7.5" drop. There is no comparable .308 Win load, the 180g Power Point being the closest in terms of bullet weight but it only has 1971fps1553fpe at 300 yards with a 9.7" drop. In fact, as measured by retained energy, the .308 /180g load at 95 yards most closely resembles the .30-06 energy at 300 yards.”
Please demonstrate an equivalent .308 Win load from a major manufactuer or pressure-tested load data.
The other .30-06 loads I’ve discussed were also SAAMI compliant. The advantage of loading the .30-06 to equal pressures has been purely speculative based on known data. The is no substitute for greater case capacity if equal pressures are used, yet you denied the .308 gets a significant advantage due to its higher SAAMI pressure.
Quote
Everyone knows that literally any cartridge can have it's performance improved by increasing the pressure beyond SAAMI spec. That's obvious. It's also pretty obvious it's not safe to do without either a) having the brass and gun manufacturers OK the higher pressure or b) doing your own engineering calculations that show the higher pressure is safe, with substantial margin. As far as I know, no one has ever done either of those things for a .30-06 +P. I don't have a problem with hotrodding cartridges, and the .30-06 is a really good candidate because there are lots of easy-to-fix bad decisions designed into it (which was my original point). But let's not skip the safe engineering part, and let's not pretend the result is the same thing as the original cartridge.
On the contrary, it is a statistical certainty that a lot of handloaders have examined the data and come to the conclusion that the .30-06 can be safely loaded beyond SAAMI standards in modern rifles. By “modern”, let’s simply limit the rifles to those that are also chambered in .270 Win, which has a 65,000PSI SAAMI limit and, prior to the pinch trim operation during case forming, which establishes different case lengths for the .30-06 and .270, uses the same case blanks. Creating the primer pocket, headstamping and then shoulder and neck forming are subsequent operations. I’m sure manufacturers know this as well but are unwilling to manufacture non-SAAMI compliant ammunition (and rightly so for a host of reasons).
I’ll grant that the .30-06 at 65,000 PSI would have greater bolt thrust pressure than a .270 Win due to the larger bullet diameter, so a “modern” .30-06 might have a pressure limit somewhat lower but still equal to or higher than the 62,000 PSI of the .308 Win.
Suggesting a .30-06 cannot be safely loaded past the SAAMI 60,000 PSI limit in modern rifles ignores the fact that a variety of 30 caliber short mags , mags and “ultra” mags are routinely loaded to 64,000 to 65,000PSI. As to bolt thrust, even the .338 Win Mag is loaded to 64,000 PSI so it shouldn’t be a problem in a modern 308” rifle that is chambered the .30-06 and these other cartridges. The manufacturers have already determined the rifle can handle the pressures so the “safe engineering” is already done.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 06/19/17. Reason: spelnig
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
The "handicap" from a longer bullet is about the same in either case since the bullets are the same diameter, and thus the loss of powder space is exactly the same.
No, the "handicap is NOT "about the same". Do the math.
A .308” bullet seated .1” deeper reduces powder space by .48837cc. Using various powder densities, that equates to the following grian weights:
1.68g H4831 1.67g Varget 1.89g BL(C)-2
Now let’s assume the following case capacities in grains of water: 56 = .308 Win 69 = .30-06
Reduce each case capacity by seating a .308” bullet .1” deeper and what do you have? ~54.3 = .308 ~67.3 = .30-06
So the 30-06 still has considerably more case capacity than the 308 Win started with while the .308 capacity is reduced by about 3%. The “obsolete” .30-06 is obviously much less sensitive to the seating depth.
I stand by my original statement that the 30-06 won’t be handicapped like the .308 will. Not nearly so much.
[Edited to correct math.]
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 06/19/17.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
You're not talking about handloading "modern" .30-06, you're talking about loading an over-pressure .30-06 +P or whatever you want to call it.
“Winchester also lists a 190g .30-06 load at 2750fps. Velocity and energy at 300 yards is listed at 2339fps/2309fpe with a 7.5" drop. There is no comparable .308 Win load, the 180g Power Point being the closest in terms of bullet weight but it only has 1971fps1553fpe at 300 yards with a 9.7" drop. In fact, as measured by retained energy, the .308 /180g load at 95 yards most closely resembles the .30-06 energy at 300 yards.”
Please demonstrate an equivalent .308 Win load from a major manufactuer or pressure-tested load data.
You have no clue what you're talking about. The loads you think are special .30-06 loads are really just SAAMI .308 loads. At this point I'm going to stop arguing with you and just start posting quick load output proving you're wrong.
Your magic .30-06 load bought you a whole 38 ft/s.
You're not talking about handloading "modern" .30-06, you're talking about loading an over-pressure .30-06 +P or whatever you want to call it.
“Winchester also lists a 190g .30-06 load at 2750fps. Velocity and energy at 300 yards is listed at 2339fps/2309fpe with a 7.5" drop. There is no comparable .308 Win load, the 180g Power Point being the closest in terms of bullet weight but it only has 1971fps1553fpe at 300 yards with a 9.7" drop. In fact, as measured by retained energy, the .308 /180g load at 95 yards most closely resembles the .30-06 energy at 300 yards.”
Please demonstrate an equivalent .308 Win load from a major manufactuer or pressure-tested load data.
You have no clue what you're talking about. The loads you think are special .30-06 loads are really just SAAMI .308 loads. At this point I'm going to stop arguing with you and just start posting quick load output proving you're wrong.
Your magic .30-06 load bought you a whole 38 ft/s.
So are you contending the Winchester .30-06 190g load doesn't exist? (It is on their web site.) Or is the truth that you just can't find a comparable .308 Win load?
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 06/19/17.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
The point is that with a longer case and 19% more powder space, an extra .1" in bullet length isn't going to handicap a .30-06 the way you think it does a .308 Win.
The "handicap" from a longer bullet is about the same in either case since the bullets are the same diameter, and thus the loss of powder space is exactly the same. Twist and turn however you like, but the fact of the matter is that there is almost no performance difference between the two cartridges, and zero practical difference. if you think .30-06 is good, then you have to think .308 is better because it does the same thing with less weight and/or recoil.
I have three .30-06 rifles and two in .308 Win. I don't think the .308 Win is better. Rather the .30-06 does what I want and is more forgiving for the handloader (me).
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
This has gotten surreal. If you spent any time looking at the picture proving you wrong, you'd see the load was circled.
Surreal is correct.
Have you been drinking a little too much? Maybe smoking rope and a little confused? Dementia?
My eyesight isn't the best but I only see three pictures in this entire thread that deal with load data. None have "circled" loads. Two have to do with Hagel's .30-06 load data and one is by las.
Show me a .308 Win load that compares to the 190g Winchester load. If you can.
Winchester 190g .30-06 at 2750fps. Velocity and energy at 300 yards is listed at 2339fps/2309fpe with a 7.5" drop. (That is comparable to their 180g .308 Win load at 95 yards.) Please show a comparable .308 Win load from a major manufacturer or load data with pressure test results.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
This has gotten surreal. If you spent any time looking at the picture proving you wrong, you'd see the load was circled.
Here's another .30-06 load for which I'd like you to demonstrate a comparable .308 Win load from either a major manufacturer or load data with pressure test results.
Federal P3006TT4, 180g Trophy Bonded Tip with 2880fps/3315fpe at the muzzle, 2346fps/2199fpe at 300 yards.
The world awaits...
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
