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Anyone else this particular on your CC ammo? I'm not. I am a firm believer of using factory ammunition for concealed carry. God forbid, If I ever have to shoot someone for a good reason and do it correctly, there is still a possibility of some lawyer or prosecutor to cause you trouble. The factory load vs hand load thing comes up every couple years here. Here's my response to it, posted in a past thread: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9616194This is from a previous post of mine on the subject (from 2012): Sorry, but the fact that one lawyer tried to make handloads an issue in a court case doesn't prove a thing. To the contrary, the fact that it's only been tried in one, single case tends to prove the opposite.
I'm a criminal defense attorney and am very good friends with our county's elected prosecutor. We were sitting around one day with several other lawyers and got to talking about the Factory Load v. Handload thing and whether using handloads exposed the shooter to more risks regarding prosecution/conviction/civil suit.
One attorney astutely pointed out that, if he could pick the shooter's ammo, and then go after the shooter in court, he would prefer that the shooter use factory ammo. His reasoning was factory self-defense loads are tested against multiple other options. They are tested and re-tested. Their performance is analyzed and re-analyzed. Only when the company has decided that it has produced the "perfect" killing round does it mass produce it and sell it to the public. So when Joe Citizen buys that ammo, he is purposely buying ammo designed to do the most harm to the other guy. That decision shows more planning and evil intent than the guy who handloads and would say in court "Oh, I loaded those rounds because I got the bullets on sale and they shoot good in my gun. No, I've never tested them for stopping power or tissue damage. I just got good groups with them and have a bunch to shoot up."
So, choosing a factory loaded, purpose-built man stopper could easily put you in a worse position than packing whatever you put together in your reloading room.
Wade
"Let's Roll!" - Todd Beamer 9/11/01.
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OP
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To the op, no I'm not that particular with my ammo, but I don't see any downside to your approach.
For a variety of reasons I carry factory fodder with jacketed hp's in my 9mm and 45 acp and revolver loads are all cast bullet handloads.
IMHO for autoloaders whether you choose factory fodder or handloads, you should run at a bare minimum 100 rounds of the load your going to carry through your gun to be assured that the gun and ammo is 100% with that combo, but better yet is running 500 of those loads through the gun and every mag you'll be using. Thanks. I agree with everything you said.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I load cottonballs and M&M's in my handloads so as not to offend anyone.
_______________________________________________________
An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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Since we are talking about lawyers and not about squib loads, wasn't there a case somewhere about a guy using a 10mm for his CC load. The apposing attorney made that an issue.
Hell, I carry a 10mm on the farm all the time. Mostly because of hogs and that is a stainless gun. Hard cast LBT also.
I still might carry that gun when I go to the "big city". But I have some kind of hollow points in it.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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You may over penetrate if you use peanut M&M's . Be careful.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Campfire Outfitter
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The ammo manufacturers are doing some pretty good stuff these days, especially ammo meeting the FBI protocols, which requires consistency in performance even after penetrating a diverse variety of barriers encountered in everyday life. The ammo companies also use powders designed to lessen flash, which helps at night. I can’t put that much R&D into my own ammo. So, I would only carry factory for self-defense purposes (at least for the first 100 or so rounds  ) unless we are talking about situations where something outside the parameters of FBI specs is required, like big critter defense. Plinking and hunting ammo is a different story.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Campfire Outfitter
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mine are loaded with those little flags that pop out of the end of the barrel and say "bang". never failed me in a combat situation.
My diploma is a DD214
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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Handloads vs. factory was a lie perpetuated by a schitty gun writer.
It's an old wive's tale and nothing more.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Regular
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[quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? Please cite the wording of your jurisdiction's deadly force Statute that references ammunition, etc. I'm going to guess it's not there........ A civil attorney might try to make an issue of it, but Scott's underlying statement is accurate. George Exactly. A civil attorney would also make an issue if you were using factory +P ammo, factory hollowpoints, factory FMJ cop killers, your NRA membership etc etc. [quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? Please cite the wording of your jurisdiction's deadly force Statute that references ammunition, etc. I'm going to guess it's not there........ A civil attorney might try to make an issue of it, but Scott's underlying statement is accurate. George Exactly. A civil attorney would also make an issue if you were using factory +P ammo, factory hollowpoints, factory FMJ cop killers, your NRA membership etc etc. Steelhead: Your ignorance abounds! Read Florida Statute 90.404 (2) (a), evidence of other crimes, wrongs or acts. One man was charged with manslaughter under that theory because he clipped a turn of the rebound slide spring of his S&W 64 and changed the grips. The prosecution expert, Harry Seyfried, testified those modifications made it "a deadly, more efficient killing machine with increased firepower". Ridiculous, I know, but the judge let it in and the jury heard that testimony. Another man was charged with manslaughter because he had removed the magazine safety from his P-35, which wasn't even the pistol used in the accidental shooting! That evidence was introduced to demonstrate his general recklessness with firearms. The evidence was deemed admissible in both cases under Rule 404. The working definition of admissible evidence is whatever the judge decides to let in. Why give them that opportunity? Or is it that you simply can't afford factory ammunition? I notice that under your profile, you average SIXTEEN (16) posts a day. Amazing! Do you just sit in the broken down swivel chair in your trailer (pardon me, mobile home) drinking beer and eating potato chips, glued to your computer all day long, expressing uninformed opinions about anything and everything, or do you actually have a life?
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Campfire Regular
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that is some funny chit right thear win70
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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[quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? Please cite the wording of your jurisdiction's deadly force Statute that references ammunition, etc. I'm going to guess it's not there........ A civil attorney might try to make an issue of it, but Scott's underlying statement is accurate. George Exactly. A civil attorney would also make an issue if you were using factory +P ammo, factory hollowpoints, factory FMJ cop killers, your NRA membership etc etc. [quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? Please cite the wording of your jurisdiction's deadly force Statute that references ammunition, etc. I'm going to guess it's not there........ A civil attorney might try to make an issue of it, but Scott's underlying statement is accurate. George Exactly. A civil attorney would also make an issue if you were using factory +P ammo, factory hollowpoints, factory FMJ cop killers, your NRA membership etc etc. Your ignorance abounds! Read Florida Statute 90.404 (2) (a), evidence of other crimes, wrongs or acts. One man was charged with manslaughter under that theory because he clipped a turn of the rebound slide spring of his S&W 64 and changed the grips. Another was charged with manslaughter because he had removed the magazine safety from his P-35, which wasn't even the pistol used in the accidental shooting! That evidence was introduced to demonstrate his general recklessness with firearms. The evidence was deemed admissible in both cases under Rule 404. The working definition of admissible evidence is whatever the judge decides to let in. Why give them that opportunity? Or is it that you simply can't afford factory ammunition? I notice that under your profile, you average SIXTEEN (16) posts a day. Amazing! Do you just sit in the broken down swivel chair in your trailer (pardon me, mobile home) drinking beer and eating potato chips, glued to your computer all day long, expressing uninformed opinions about anything and everything, or do you actually have a life? When I'm not here I'm banging the shiet out of your mom. Again, please show me the examples of where ANYONE was charged and/or convicted of murder/manslaughter because they used handloads. I'd wager a [bleep] from your wife, but who hasn't had one of those.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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The cite has absolutely nothing to do with the type of ammunition used. Furthermore, you'll need to do better than "some guy" was charged and they used the rules of evidence to do so. The remaining facts are important in those cases or, just as likely, a terrible defense attorney was involved if a clipped spring was pivotal evidence in the case (assuming it's a legitimate case and not urban legend).
Last edited by NH K9; 07/14/17.
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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My guess is Winchestermodel70 has to pay for 'game animals' and pussy.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Regular
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Steelhead:
It is difficult to try to educate an uneducated, boorish man whose parents were brother and sister to each other.
I will leave you in whatever lonely, private hell you've created for yourself in "Azerbaijan". You should have no worries about a deadly force encounter since you likely never leave the trailer park.
Blaze away! If it helps you alleviate the lonely misery you live in, it has some benefit.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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Steelhead:
It is difficult to try to educate an uneducated, boorish man whose parents were brother and sister to each other.
I will leave you in whatever lonely, private hell you've created for yourself in "Azerbaijan". You should have no worries about a deadly force encounter since you likely never leave the trailer park.
Blaze away! If it helps you alleviate the lonely misery you live in, it has some benefit. Talk about hiding in a basement. It's a shame your mother didn't swallow you like she has so many others. Once again, you can't CITE an example. You were asked but you duck and dodge like your you're front row of a porn theater. Congrats?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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[quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? Since you obviously possess superior intellect, please enlighten ALL of us with an example.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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My apologies.......I missed the portion of the prior reference where the firearm with the "magazine safety" removed was evidence in regards to an "accidental shooting". That actually makes some sense if presented as evidence in coordation with other, similar, factors.
It still has "zero" applicability to the conversation at hand!
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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"Your Honor, the alleged perpetrator is 50% deader because the defendant used reloaded ammunition in his gun. Additionally, I submit that because he changed the grips and the sights so that he could have better control of the handgun and see the sights at night, he had an unfair advantage over the alleged perpetrator who is deader because of it."
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - Ronald Reagan
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Campfire Outfitter
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[quote=Steelhead]A shoot is either righteous or it ain't, what ammo you're carrying don't change that.[/quote
Don't know what the lawyers are like where you purportedly live (Azerbaijan), but I hope you never have to find out the fallacy of your premise in a court of law in the U.S.. Aggressive prosecutors and voracious plaintiff's civil lawyers could have a field day with your use of handloads in a defensive shooting.
As a matter of curiosity, just how many civilian shootings have you personally been involved in, so we can have some measure of the level of experience behind your statement? There are no rooms or factory ammo in Azerbaijan or Tuscany. zerbaijan, the nation and former Soviet republic, is bounded by the Caspian Sea and Caucasus Mountains, which span Asia and Europe. Its capital, Baku, is famed for its medieval walled Inner City. Within the Inner City lies the Palace of the Shirvanshahs, a royal retreat dating to the 15th century, and the centuries-old stone Maiden Tower, which dominates the city skyline. So a handload makes you a sociopath? What prosecutor is going to chase that ball? Seriously, I would like to read about cases where handloads turned the tide on a self defense shooter.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is.
dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb
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Campfire Ranger
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While it is obvious to anyone who ever picked up a gunrag that MA pretty much single handedly perpetuated the myth in question, I have to wonder how much Hollywood had to do with the origination of the myth.
Remember those movies and TV shows from the late '60s/ early '70s where the villain was shown maliciously scoring his bullets with a knife. And the hero cops/prosecuter went on at length about "those deadly dum-dum bullets".
Then, of course, Winchester introduced their Black Talon, and the media went berserk. Winchester pulled the BT, and immediately replaced it with a bullet of nearly identical performance, but with a more benign moniker. And Speer introduced the GD, and Hornady the XTP, Sierra the JHC.
When all the nation's police forces switched from ball ammo to enhanced lethality HP ammunition, that pretty much sucked the wind out of the leftist agenda against HP ammo. How can it be bad, if their own agents are using it?
This is my understanding of the history behind and the demise of the myth concerning liabilty due to using handloads in a self defense situation.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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