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I like that, whistling deer.


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Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Originally Posted by Gadfly
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Colonial history of the south/southwest was my real interest. Especially the southern French colonies. I think I posted here one time that to me post 1812 history here is a bit boring for me.



I have a well worn copy of LaHarpe's Historical Journal of the Establishment of the French in Louisiana sitting on my coffee table as I type this, as well as a tote full of journal articles about the early french explorations in the interior highlands in my closet. Some very interesting American (and world) history that most people know very little about.



Ahh! François deLaHarpe! Now there's an adventure. I quoted two of his stories not too long ago here on the campfire!! Establishes and runs a trading post in Spanish Texas and the Dons did nothing about it!!! LOL! One of the stories was his dining on unicorn at the Nasoni caddo village where he set up that post! (Actually it was like a small cabin. Mebbe 8x8 poste du terre construction).

Have you ever read du Pages journals??


Yes I have. DuTisne's also.


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Damn!!!

Bossu's journal???


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I think I have some excerpts in some of the articles I mentioned, but not the entire journal.


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Okay, enough talk about who was responsible for the slaves being here. Ever who it was, I'd like to kick his ass and tell him to send them back. They may have been needed then, but they're a burden now. So, let's get back on track and discuss the original post.

I have been reading a book by Jefferson Davis......A Short History Of The Confederate States Of America. While there is probably nothing new revealed, it has opened my eyes on a few things, mainly from a political perspective of how the North, Lincoln, and the Republicans acted, and how ruthless they were. But, Davis gives accounts of the major battles, and even though I knew the South never had the manpower that the North did, I'd never really realized just how disparaging those numbers were. It was common for the South to be outnumbered 2-1, and even three or four to one in a lot of battles. Yet, they won many of them, or fought the Yankees to a standstill in others. That says a lot for the Confederate army and it's leaders.

Davis commented that the death of Jackson hurt the South, because he and Lee were such a good team. Stonewall got results, and had an uncanny ability to make his attacks in the right place, at the right time. I believe that had he lived, it is very possible that the outcome of some of the battles fought after his death, would have had a different outcome. I'm not saying the South would have won the war, because the North had such a huge advantage in everything, and time was on their side.

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We all agree (I think) Jackson had balls of brass, but foolhardy at times. To quote Lord Raglan whilst witnessing the famous Charge Of The Light Brigade on the Balaklava Heights, "it's magnificent, but it's not war".


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Originally Posted by JamesJr
Okay, enough talk about who was responsible for the slaves being here. Ever who it was, I'd like to kick his ass and tell him to send them back. They may have been needed then, but they're a burden now. So, let's get back on track and discuss the original post.

I have been reading a book by Jefferson Davis......A Short History Of The Confederate States Of America. While there is probably nothing new revealed, it has opened my eyes on a few things, mainly from a political perspective of how the North, Lincoln, and the Republicans acted, and how ruthless they were. But, Davis gives accounts of the major battles, and even though I knew the South never had the manpower that the North did, I'd never really realized just how disparaging those numbers were. It was common for the South to be outnumbered 2-1, and even three or four to one in a lot of battles. Yet, they won many of them, or fought the Yankees to a standstill in others. That says a lot for the Confederate army and it's leaders.

Davis commented that the death of Jackson hurt the South, because he and Lee were such a good team. Stonewall got results, and had an uncanny ability to make his attacks in the right place, at the right time. I believe that had he lived, it is very possible that the outcome of some of the battles fought after his death, would have had a different outcome. I'm not saying the South would have won the war, because the North had such a huge advantage in everything, and time was on their side.


The CSA's situation in the American Civil War was similar, from an industrial base perspective, to the Japanese in WW2. Both were militarily superior early on, the CSA's military leadership, and the Japanese hardware and training. Neither had the industrial base to fight an extended war of attrition, a situation that got worse when they were isolated by naval blockade and unable to import/export at will.

As a whole, the Union Armies didn't have General Officers equal to the Confederate Armies until Grant succeeded Halleck as General In Chief and Sherman succeeded Grant as the commander in the west. With more aggressive leadership, the Union Armies might have leveraged their superior numbers to destroy Lee's Army of Northern Virginia if McClellan had been more decisive during the Peninsula Campaign, if he had aggressively pursed Lee following Antietam, or if Mead had aggressively pursued Lee following Gettysburg, when Lee was pinned against the north bank of the flooded Potomac. Grant co-located his HQ with Mead and while Mead continued to command the Army Of The Potomac, Grant was calling the shots. Win or lose, Grant used his superior numbers to grind Lee's forces during the last year of the war, from Wilderness in 05/64 to Appomattox in 04/65. Grant wasn't as good a tactician as Lee, but he effectively leveraged his strengths and exploited Lee's weakness in both numbers and material.

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The South could have won that war.
Look at how we won the Revolution. England was the economic superpower of the world. The English navy ruled the waves.
England won many of the big battles.
But, the stubborn colonists refused to quit and just wore England down, they got sick of fighting and gave up.

The South could have done it and nearly did, in the fall of '64 Lincoln was convinced that he would lose the election and his successor would make peace.
Just a couple more victories and the South could have pulled it off.

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A quote from Harry Truman, "A schoolboy's hindsight is always better than a general's foresight".

Having said that, it is interesting to debate the history.


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Yes. "IF" is a wonderful word, all sorts of favorable outcomes can be assigned using "IF". I wonder what would have happened IF Lee had 20 Sherman tanks at Gettysburg, with appropriate fuel, ammo and trained crews, of course, and overlooking the irony of the name...


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Originally Posted by simonkenton7
The South could have won that war.
Look at how we won the Revolution. England was the economic superpower of the world. The English navy ruled the waves.
England won many of the big battles.
But, the stubborn colonists refused to quit and just wore England down, they got sick of fighting and gave up.

The South could have done it and nearly did, in the fall of '64 Lincoln was convinced that he would lose the election and his successor would make peace.
Just a couple more victories and the South could have pulled it off.


The Confederacy could have won more battles, but they never had the critical mass of soldiers and war materials to succeed in a war of attrition without outside help to supplement their frail infrastructure. We tend to forget that the American Revolution was mostly defensive in nature until France came in on the side of the Americans, after the American victory at Saratoga in 1777. The British had other fires to deal with in Europe, India, and the Caribbean when they finally chose to cut their loses and let the American colonies go.

We can play "what if" games all day long and nothing we do today can rewrite what actually happened over 150 years ago.

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The rebels won more.

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Shelby Foote----An American Historian----wrote a 3 volume history of the Civil War. He said the South never had a chance of winning the war. He said the North fought with one arm tied behinds it's back. Too many men, too much industry, South never had a chance.

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Originally Posted by colorado bob
Shelby Foote----An American Historian----wrote a 3 volume history of the Civil War. He said the South never had a chance of winning the war. He said the North fought with one arm tied behinds it's back. Too many men, too much industry, South never had a chance.




There were many union units that never saw action and 1000's of firearms and equip that was never issued. Literally tons of it. Enter Francis Bannermann after the war! The original surplus dealer.


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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

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The best the South could have done was to forestall the North until Lincoln was defeated at the polls, and a new president decided to let the South go. The Rebs were better fighters than their Yankee counterparts, they were fighting on their homeland for the most part, the Southern leadership was better, their Calvary was superior.......but they simply did not have the manpower or the supplies that the North had. That made the difference.

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Quote
We tend to forget that the American Revolution was mostly defensive in nature until France came in on the side of the Americans, after the American victory at Saratoga in 1777. The British had other fires to deal with in Europe, India, and the Caribbean when they finally chose to cut their loses and let the American colonies go.


This is what I understand to have happened.

The Brits were involved in essentially what was a World War, and had more important irons in the fire than the colonies that were to become the U.S..

Last edited by Vic_in_Va; 07/27/17.
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Originally Posted by simonkenton7
The South could have won that war.
Look at how we won the Revolution. England was the economic superpower of the world. The English navy ruled the waves.
England won many of the big battles.
But, the stubborn colonists refused to quit and just wore England down, they got sick of fighting and gave up.

The South could have done it and nearly did, in the fall of '64 Lincoln was convinced that he would lose the election and his successor would make peace.
Just a couple more victories and the South could have pulled it off.


Your knowledge of history is woefully lacking. The Brits were involved in a thirty year struggle in Europe and indeed across the world and THE main reason for Washington's victory at Yorktown was the French Fleet's blockade of Lord Cornwallis' relief force coming from the north. On the Civil War, all conjecture for sure, but even if Lee had been victorious at Gettysburg, it would have been a Pyrrhic victory.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
Quote
We tend to forget that the American Revolution was mostly defensive in nature until France came in on the side of the Americans, after the American victory at Saratoga in 1777. The British had other fires to deal with in Europe, India, and the Caribbean when they finally chose to cut their loses and let the American colonies go.


This is what I understand to have happened.

The Brits were involved in essentially was a World War, and had more important irons in the fire than the colonies that were to become the U.S..




Brits were still trying to pay for the earlier "world war" they were involved in as well, the Seven Years War.


Last edited by kaywoodie; 07/27/17.

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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

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Originally Posted by JamesJr
The best the South could have done was to forestall the North until Lincoln was defeated at the polls, and a new president decided to let the South go. The Rebs were better fighters than their Yankee counterparts, they were fighting on their homeland for the most part, the Southern leadership was better, their Calvary was superior.......but they simply did not have the manpower or the supplies that the North had. That made the difference.


I'd disagree with your assertion that the rank and file Confederate soldiers were better than their Union counterparts. The Union soldiers were poorly led early on and to some degree later on due to political considerations, like Benjamin Butler, but from private through Lieutenant Colonel I think that they were pretty evenly matched. The Confederate Calvary was better, probably because the the road network in the rural south was less robust than in the north so more people rode saddle horses in the normal course of things while in the north horses were driven more often than they were ridden.

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The Confederate Calvary were better horsemen, but the Union Calvary had more guns that shot faster.


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