Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Killing versus stopping

So if it happens with a 500 too, why not just use a 9mm Glock "AI"?

PS: 10:1 it happens a LOT less with RIFLE cals > 45 (and MV 2150 or more) and of course the intuitively obvious bullet placement..

Bottom line: bullet placement is not a guarantee as a stand alone factor, which is what I've been trying to convey.

Nothing is a guarantee and a bigger round doesn't guarantee a stop when placement isn't correct. Mark Sullivan videos shows a missed brain shot with a 600 nitro and the buff never slowed, Mark yelled ah [bleep] and connected with the brain on shot #2.

[quote=Andy3] As I understand the term "stopping rifle" for African game, it goes like this... When taking on a charging elephant or buffalo, you aim for a brain shot, and kill them instantly with a CNS hit. If you miss the brain, with a "stopping rifle", it will either knock out or daze the animal...stopping it long enough for a precise follow up shot to the brain. Most stopping rifle calibers start with a "5" and are used with solids with a flat nose. This is the way it was explained to me, by my PH, in Zimbabwe. Pretty much follows what mule deer stated, above.



A missed brain shot may or may not turn the animal so you can get a second shot in. One would hope it turns, but as you know, there are no guarantees. African hunting memoirs are replete with accounts wherein a hunter thought he had brained an elephant and the elephant went down. The hunter (as is the custom) cut the tail off to prove ownership and then posed for photos. The elephant, merely stunned, got up after a few minutes and then departed, never to be seen again. BTW, in such a situation, you must pay the trophy fee anyway.

The moral of the story is that no matter how dead your elephant (or buff) appears, "pay the insurance" by shooting it a few times more. As someone once said, 'it's the dead ones that kill you".

1. You did, when you said bullet placement is it and everything else is BS. Further, never said caliber size trumps placement, but it does allow for a larger margin of error.
2. No sir, I have that video, moreover, I've spoken with Sullivan on that very buffalo and the 600 definitively put the brakes on, long enough to whack him w the second shot.

Bullet placement and placement are the 2 key requirements and all else does fall into the BS. But nothing is 100% in life.

You must have seen something I didn't see , because "put the brakes on" is what how I saw it. He could have done the same thing with a 9.3.

And some common sense enters the discussion!

Disagree. Brain or spine and it's all over.

We'll try the Confucius approach:

You leaving out penetration, with those lead bulleted LR's.

These type of debates crack me up. So many posting opinions based solely on their emotions or what they have "heard." Accuracy trumps horsepower every single time. While Ive never been to Africa, I spend more time in the bush guiding hunters, trappers, and fishermen in a average year than most do in a lifetime... in an average year I will spend 8-9 months in the bush. The lowly 308 Winchester will stop an interior grizzly quite nicely if good bullets are used, and put in the right spot. I know because Ive done it more than once. The 338 Federal is another great round for this type of stuff and I have used it extensively since it first came out. Lots of stuff happens in the bush every year that the vast majority of hunters ( or anyone else for that matter) never hear about. Suffice it to say that dozens of aggressive predators are killed every year with 303s, 30-30s, the old russian mosins, and similar calibers. The trappers, subsistent hunters, and prospectors that use them understand what most don't....accuracy trumps horsepower every single time. I doubt Africa is much different. I know a fellow over there that swears by the 9.3....for everything. But he can shoot

OF COURSE IT DOES... And a 9.3 (X62 I imagine) ain't no 9MM pistol round

OK. you win.

Perhaps you missed the two factors involved in placing a bullet in the brain or spine...

With a 22 on that elephant? Sure, go ahead...

I stand on the side of big enough, I'm not one that believes that one needs the absolute biggest.

Well let's see. I've killed buffalo with an 8mm mag, Win Mag, a half dozen with the 9.3 x 62, another half dozen with .450/400 NE and one with the .450 No 2 NE. All died. One I got with solids from the 9.3 didn't die fast enough and he needed to be tracked into the long grass and finished. I carried the .450 No 2 for that, although the PH got him with .458 Win Mag.

See, there is a difference between killing and stopping.400 or 500 grains work better at stopping than does 250 grains. I proved that 220 from a 8mm mag will stop a buff if you shoot them in the forehead, but you better be very precise. Do the physics. A 16 lb bowling ball mixes the pins much better than a 12 lb ball.

My humble opinion. (and all the dearth of worth that likely carries)
As has been bandied about killing doesn't need to have anything to do with "stopping". Ponder for a moment some short range weapon (phaser on stun type thing) that 100% reliably stunned/staggered any charging beastie for a good 5-10 seconds but had no actual lethality whatsoever. A hunter would have little use for such a thing but a PH might be extremely intrigued. The reason obviously is the difference in priorities. A hunting arm's primary purpose is to put game on the ground. A stopping arm's primary purpose is to try to keep game from putting you on (or even under) the ground.

Gleaning information from people far more experienced than myself when dealing with those who make a living amongst things large and bitey and/or stompy there is a strong correlation with larger calibers. I think of this as nothing more than a hedge. All else being equal* if carrying a bit more rifle improves your odds in a worst case scenario by only 5% why not take that given the stakes? You could spend a lifetime dodging tooth/claw/tusk/horn and never have use for a "stopper" at all or even if you did what you had with you at the time be sufficient in that instance. OTOH what if that small advantage was the difference between talking cartridges here vs with St Peter? Ruark said "Use enough gun." and I've seen no reason to interpret that to mean "Minimum is good enough.". I've always taken it to mean "Enough starts at plenty." and when lives, perhaps yours, are in play I'm a Ruarkian. Of course I firmly believe everyone should do as they see fit.

*It's a minor pet peeve of mine but I've never understood the "accuracy trumps everything" mantra in caliber discussions. Guaranteed accuracy is arguably less reliable than cartridge performance so when discussing one why does the criteria of the other have to come into play? If we were all Francisco Scaramanga that would be one thing but we're not. When discussing calibers it seems we should consider the accuracy issue as a given in the comparison and proceed from there.

Jorge - thanks for the reference to the book! I read the rest of that story and it's GREAT!

I believe I'll buy that book!

Guy

A lot of truth here. The problem in my experience is this: very few...and by that I mean I have maybe seen a handful of hunters in my 30+ year guiding career that can handle big calibers. Any time you start getting into the 338 WM kind of recoil accuracy starts to suffer. There are some that can shoot the big calibers accurately don't get me wrong, but the vast majority of hunters would be way better off sticking with something they can shoot. That is my biggest pet peeve with these types of threads; guys read them and think they gotta have a 416 to hunt grizzly, or browns. It just aint true. What happens is they bring a rifle they can't handle on a hunt and either wound an animal ( that a guide like me has to risk life and limb to find ) or completely miss. They would be much better off if they knew that a 30/06 class rifle with good bullets will do the job just fine. Im currently using a 338 Federal and with good bullets I get all the penetration I need for any angle on interior bears. I've killed wounded bears at point blank range, and shot clean through a big bull bison at 300 yards. More isn't needed, but if you can accurately shoot them by all means bring a heavy rifle.