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A lot of truth here. The problem in my experience is this: very few...and by that I mean I have maybe seen a handful of hunters in my 30+ year guiding career that can handle big calibers. Any time you start getting into the 338 WM kind of recoil accuracy starts to suffer. There are some that can shoot the big calibers accurately don't get me wrong, but the vast majority of hunters would be way better off sticking with something they can shoot. That is my biggest pet peeve with these types of threads; guys read them and think they gotta have a 416 to hunt grizzly, or browns. It just aint true. What happens is they bring a rifle they can't handle on a hunt and either wound an animal ( that a guide like me has to risk life and limb to find ) or completely miss. They would be much better off if they knew that a 30/06 class rifle with good bullets will do the job just fine. Im currently using a 338 Federal and with good bullets I get all the penetration I need for any angle on interior bears. I've killed wounded bears at point blank range, and shot clean through a big bull bison at 300 yards. More isn't needed, but if you can accurately shoot them by all means bring a heavy rifle.
A friend of mine hunted with this well know outfit and of course by no means the standard, but they want you to bring a 416 at least (if you can shoot it) even for black bears. Apparently they don't like chasing after them in the alders. I hope to some day hunt Alaska and when I go, at the very least, I'll carry a 338. I've hunted Africa and have no issues with shooting big bores. Glacier Bay
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Well let's see. I've killed buffalo with an 8mm mag, Win Mag, a half dozen with the 9.3 x 62, another half dozen with .450/400 NE and one with the .450 No 2 NE. All died. One I got with solids from the 9.3 didn't die fast enjoy and he needed to b fracked into the long grass and finished. I carried the .450 No 2 for that, although the PH got him with .458 Win Mag.
See, there is a difference between killing and stopping.400 or 500 grains work better at stopping than does 250 grains. I proved that 220 from a 8mm mag will stop a buff if you shoot them in the forehead, but you better be very precise. Do the physics. A 16 lb bowling ball mixes the pins much better than a 12 lb ball. Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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My humble opinion. (and all the dearth of worth that likely carries)
As has been bandied about killing doesn't need to have anything to do with "stopping". Ponder for a moment some short range weapon (phaser on stun type thing) that 100% reliably stunned/staggered any charging beastie for a good 5-10 seconds but had no actual lethality whatsoever. A hunter would have little use for such a thing but a PH might be extremely intrigued. The reason obviously is the difference in priorities. A hunting arm's primary purpose is to put game on the ground. A stopping arm's primary purpose is to try to keep game from putting you on (or even under) the ground.
Gleaning information from people far more experienced than myself when dealing with those who make a living amongst things large and bitey and/or stompy there is a strong correlation with larger calibers. I think of this as nothing more than a hedge. All else being equal* if carrying a bit more rifle improves your odds in a worst case scenario by only 5% why not take that given the stakes? You could spend a lifetime dodging tooth/claw/tusk/horn and never have use for a "stopper" at all or even if you did what you had with you at the time be sufficient in that instance. OTOH what if that small advantage was the difference between talking cartridges here vs with St Peter? Ruark said "Use enough gun." and I've seen no reason to interpret that to mean "Minimum is good enough.". I've always taken it to mean "Enough starts at plenty." and when lives, perhaps yours, are in play I'm a Ruarkian. Of course I firmly believe everyone should do as they see fit.
*It's a minor pet peeve of mine but I've never understood the "accuracy trumps everything" mantra in caliber discussions. Guaranteed accuracy is arguably less reliable than cartridge performance so when discussing one why does the criteria of the other have to come into play? If we were all Francisco Scaramanga that would be one thing but we're not. When discussing calibers it seems we should consider the accuracy issue as a given in the comparison and proceed from there. A lot of truth here. The problem in my experience is this: very few...and by that I mean I have maybe seen a handful of hunters in my 30+ year guiding career that can handle big calibers. Any time you start getting into the 338 WM kind of recoil accuracy starts to suffer. There are some that can shoot the big calibers accurately don't get me wrong, but the vast majority of hunters would be way better off sticking with something they can shoot. That is my biggest pet peeve with these types of threads; guys read them and think they gotta have a 416 to hunt grizzly, or browns. It just aint true. What happens is they bring a rifle they can't handle on a hunt and either wound an animal ( that a guide like me has to risk life and limb to find ) or completely miss. They would be much better off if they knew that a 30/06 class rifle with good bullets will do the job just fine. Im currently using a 338 Federal and with good bullets I get all the penetration I need for any angle on interior bears. I've killed wounded bears at point blank range, and shot clean through a big bull bison at 300 yards. More isn't needed, but if you can accurately shoot them by all means bring a heavy rifle. Yep, and there's the "all things equal" alluded to in my post. What you're pointing out is the juxtaposition where accuracy and caliber meet. You don't, indeed can't, get to the "all things equal" part of the caliber discussion if you can't get that accuracy thing straightened out. Calibers CAN have an advantage, at least under certain circumstances, but it's a completely moot point if you aren't hitting where you're aiming. As a guide I imagine you'd relish the idea of someone showing up with a .416 that they could shoot well. That would just be good on good. However I'd wager you'd be pretty unexcited by someone who didn't know their way around a rifle even if it was a .308. Perhaps the most oft (paraphrased) quote on the matter of hunting large and dangerous game I've seen is "Use the largest rifle you are comfortable with and shoot accurately.". Makes sense to me.
If there's one thing I've become certain of it's that there's too much certainty in the world.
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A lot of truth here. The problem in my experience is this: very few...and by that I mean I have maybe seen a handful of hunters in my 30+ year guiding career that can handle big calibers. Any time you start getting into the 338 WM kind of recoil accuracy starts to suffer. There are some that can shoot the big calibers accurately don't get me wrong, but the vast majority of hunters would be way better off sticking with something they can shoot. That is my biggest pet peeve with these types of threads; guys read them and think they gotta have a 416 to hunt grizzly, or browns. It just aint true. What happens is they bring a rifle they can't handle on a hunt and either wound an animal ( that a guide like me has to risk life and limb to find ) or completely miss. They would be much better off if they knew that a 30/06 class rifle with good bullets will do the job just fine. Im currently using a 338 Federal and with good bullets I get all the penetration I need for any angle on interior bears. I've killed wounded bears at point blank range, and shot clean through a big bull bison at 300 yards. More isn't needed, but if you can accurately shoot them by all means bring a heavy rifle.
A friend of mine hunted with this well know outfit and of course by no means the standard, but they want you to bring a 416 at least (if you can shoot it) even for black bears. Apparently they don't like chasing after them in the alders. I hope to some day hunt Alaska and when I go, at the very least, I'll carry a 338. I've hunted Africa and have no issues with shooting big bores. Glacier BayCant quite fathom why anyone would suggest a 416 for black bears, but I can promise you it isn't needed. I actually had a guy shoot a black bear with one once. It was a spring hunt and we were sitting on a moose carcass that had drowned then washed up on shore. Just at last light a big black bear came in to feed. The bear bolted for the pucker brush at the shot. I knew he was hit but wasn't sure where. We found him the next morning still very much alive. I finished the fiasco with my 308, turned out the bear was hit about 4 inches to far back. Thats the only shot I ever saw that hunter fire so I can't comment on his ability as things happen sometimes, but I do know that most hunters could have anchored that bear with a 30/06. I know very few hunters that are going to admit that they CANT shoot a 416 accurately, so advising them to bring one is asking for trouble.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Agree with you 100 % not needed. I've taken two nice Black, 35 Wheelen and 06.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A lot of truth here. The problem in my experience is this: very few...and by that I mean I have maybe seen a handful of hunters in my 30+ year guiding career that can handle big calibers. Any time you start getting into the 338 WM kind of recoil accuracy starts to suffer. There are some that can shoot the big calibers accurately don't get me wrong, but the vast majority of hunters would be way better off sticking with something they can shoot. That is my biggest pet peeve with these types of threads; guys read them and think they gotta have a 416 to hunt grizzly, or browns. It just aint true. What happens is they bring a rifle they can't handle on a hunt and either wound an animal ( that a guide like me has to risk life and limb to find ) or completely miss. They would be much better off if they knew that a 30/06 class rifle with good bullets will do the job just fine. Im currently using a 338 Federal and with good bullets I get all the penetration I need for any angle on interior bears. I've killed wounded bears at point blank range, and shot clean through a big bull bison at 300 yards. More isn't needed, but if you can accurately shoot them by all means bring a heavy rifle.
A friend of mine hunted with this well know outfit and of course by no means the standard, but they want you to bring a 416 at least (if you can shoot it) even for black bears. Apparently they don't like chasing after them in the alders. I hope to some day hunt Alaska and when I go, at the very least, I'll carry a 338. I've hunted Africa and have no issues with shooting big bores. Glacier Bay Whitworth shot a pig with his 416 Remington with 300 Grant TSX at 2900 FPS + and the pig ran off. They weren't able to find the pig that day and the guides gave him a rash of [bleep] about missing. The pig was found the next day hit through the chest cavity with tons of internal damage to the clock work. Amazing that he went anywhere! No guarantees.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Do bears, of any type, take less "killing" or "stopping" than big/dangerous African game?
I've happily taken bears (several black, one grizzly) with .375 and .30-06 rifles. Shot the grizzly with a .30-06, though there was also a good hit from the guide's .338 Win Mag.
Never hunted Africa, but I'd sure like to do so someday, particularly for cape buff and a gemsbok. That hippo video above was pretty intense!
Thanks, Guy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I frankly don't believe African game is any tougher, just some are bigger.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Ranger
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My humble opinion. (and all the dearth of worth that likely carries)
Ruark said "Use enough gun." and I've seen no reason to interpret that to mean "Minimum is good enough.". I've always taken it to mean "Enough starts at plenty." and when lives, perhaps yours, are in play I'm a Ruarkian. Of course I firmly believe everyone should do as they see fit.
*It's a minor pet peeve of mine but I've never understood the "accuracy trumps everything" mantra in caliber discussions. Guaranteed accuracy is arguably less reliable than cartridge performance so when discussing one why does the criteria of the other have to come into play? If we were all Francisco Scaramanga that would be one thing but we're not. When discussing calibers it seems we should consider the accuracy issue as a given in the comparison and proceed from there. To go along with your Ruark theme, in Horn of the Hunter he quotes Harry Selby about precision shooter who can "split lemons" at 200 yard. Said Selby"I'm more interested in what they can do with a buffalo at 1o yards", or to that effect. 
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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If anyone wants to understand "killing" vs "Stopping" needs to read African Rifles and Cartridges by Jihn "Pondoro" Taylor
You will be wiser after reading
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Seems to me that the following applies, mostly:
-if your bullet gets into the brain, it will usually be lights out. It has to get in there though, and as well as being surrounded by bones and sometimes headgear. it can be a challenging shot;
- if your bullet causes the spinal cord, or a nerve junction nearby (such as the brachial plexus), to be severed (whether directly or by driving bone fragments through it) the animal will be down, though it might not be dead if nothing else (eg nearby arteries) is damaged;
- if your bullet makes a big hole through a major artery, especially the aorta, it will usually be over pretty quick, but it might not be instant;
- if you hit the heart, the pumping stops, so the animal may have a few seconds - enough to bolt into cover or at you - before going down
- a hit to a major organ, other than the above, such as lungs, really needs a good deal of damage to be effective quickly
- breaking major bones may drive splinters through something vital, but if not, animals can often keep on trucking
That is only my experience of course, based on animals I've killed or seen killed. Sometimes unusual things happen too.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If anyone wants to understand "killing" vs "Stopping" needs to read African Rifles and Cartridges by Jihn "Pondoro" Taylor
You will be wiser after reading Hard to decipher fact from the BS. Read Don Heath for truer prospective.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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It's still a good read.
Mark Sullivan wanted to gain the same experience by using a different cartridge every season and compilehis findings. I've talked to Mark about this inn person both here and in Tanzania, as well as hours on the phone ang have his observations. Like his videos or not, he has more experience with a wide variety of big bore stoppers than anyone alive. His book was not as entertaining as Taylors, but also a good read. There is a reason that most PHs will carry a .458 or equal around dangerous game. Somebody pointed out Phil Shoemaker killed a bear with a 9mm. Is Phil's handle here 9mm or 458win??
Guess what his "stopper" is.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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When you shoot a lot of rifles, most notice a sameness/similarity in results with usual/common cartridges until you step up to the .375 H&H as many have on this site. It is common to note a new level of performance as the writings and comments on this site indicate.
That level is increased again when you shoot a .460 Weatherby Magnum. It is a notable leap in the perceived level of power. I, like others, wish I had shot a lot more larger animals but the sudden shudder and incapability to take another step is notable, if they don't drop cold.
I have not shot anything larger.
JW
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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dan,
Yes, making a big hole through a major blood vessel ends things relatively quickly, but its amazing how long a Cape buffalo's heart can keeping pumping blood even with major leakage in the circulatory system. In Tanzania in 2011 my hunting partner shot a bull facing us, right below the chin at 40 yards with a .458 Lott, the bullet a 500-grain Nosler Partition. The bullet shattered the spine and the bull dropped right there, never moving again, but when approaching the "dead" buffalo, the PH told my partner to put an insurance bullet in the bull's chest. He did, and a spout of blood started pumping out of the hole, the pumps obviously timed to the heartbeat. I immediately looked at my watch, and the flow's rate did not start slowing for almost a minute, when it started to gradually subside, but didn't stop for at least another half-minute.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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M D - WOW that's impressive. (sincerely)
Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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About all I know is that Shot placement trumps Bore size and bullet performance trumps power .
But when things start getting interesting it's nice to have all four.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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M D - WOW that's impressive. (sincerely) dan,
The bullet shattered the spine and the bull dropped right there, never moving again, but when approaching the "dead" buffalo, the PH told my partner to put an insurance bullet in the bull's chest. He did, and a spout of blood started pumping out of the hole,[/b] the pumps obviously timed to the heartbeat. I immediately looked at my watch, and the flow's rate did not start slowing for almost a minute, when it started to gradually subside, but didn't stop for at least another half-minute.[b] I understand it had a C N S hit.... But w/o it.... an animal that size with their tenacity COULD do a WORLD of damage in 1-1 1/2 min. !! Jerry
Last edited by jwall; 08/05/17.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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My humble opinion. (and all the dearth of worth that likely carries)
As has been bandied about killing doesn't need to have anything to do with "stopping". Ponder for a moment some short range weapon (phaser on stun type thing) that 100% reliably stunned/staggered any charging beastie for a good 5-10 seconds but had no actual lethality whatsoever. A hunter would have little use for such a thing but a PH might be extremely intrigued. The reason obviously is the difference in priorities. A hunting arm's primary purpose is to put game on the ground. A stopping arm's primary purpose is to try to keep game from putting you on (or even under) the ground.
Gleaning information from people far more experienced than myself when dealing with those who make a living amongst things large and bitey and/or stompy there is a strong correlation with larger calibers. I think of this as nothing more than a hedge. All else being equal* if carrying a bit more rifle improves your odds in a worst case scenario by only 5% why not take that given the stakes? You could spend a lifetime dodging tooth/claw/tusk/horn and never have use for a "stopper" at all or even if you did what you had with you at the time be sufficient in that instance. OTOH what if that small advantage was the difference between talking cartridges here vs with St Peter? Ruark said "Use enough gun." and I've seen no reason to interpret that to mean "Minimum is good enough.". I've always taken it to mean "Enough starts at plenty." and when lives, perhaps yours, are in play I'm a Ruarkian. Of course I firmly believe everyone should do as they see fit.
*It's a minor pet peeve of mine but I've never understood the "accuracy trumps everything" mantra in caliber discussions. Guaranteed accuracy is arguably less reliable than cartridge performance so when discussing one why does the criteria of the other have to come into play? If we were all Francisco Scaramanga that would be one thing but we're not. When discussing calibers it seems we should consider the accuracy issue as a given in the comparison and proceed from there. An intelligent reply, and in my view the only sane one. Bob www.bigbores.ca
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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I've never shot a Cape buffalo or an elephant, so I can't comment on any personal exploits of that nature. But in killing a significant number of black bear, there has been in my experience an unequivocal distinction in effect between .458-cal (.45-70 and .458 WM) and .358/.366 calibers. With non-CNS hits, .458s put them on the ground where standing, not to get up again -- mostly dead before hitting the ground. The mediums killed them within 20-25 yards with good hits to heart/lungs, but did not stop them. I go prepared for the possible worst case scenario, not the best. If a person can't shoot a .45-70 accurately, that's not the fault of the cartridge. The same hold's true for anything else over .40-cal. I'm closer to 82 than 81 and just a couple of days ago came across a full box of 500gr Speer Grand Slam Africans. They'd been sitting on the dealers shelf "forever" at $89.99 + tax. I got them for $52.99 + tax. Do I need them? Well, yeah, kinda... you see I have this thing for .458" bullets. They'll get shot at the range at 1900 to 2000 fps, with a couple at 2200. And a couple more will be reserved for a bear. I can't wait! And, oh... I have arthritis in my hands, diabetes and one eye. I must be the one-eyed giant, right? Well, I'm actually (now) 5' - 8" (bare feet) and 165 - 170 lbs most of the time. You see why I don't have a lot of patience with guides, outfitters and PHs who make excuses for "hunters" poor shooting while accepting them as clients. In parts of Africa the laws mandate the limits of what one must use for certain large and/or dangerous game. In those cases, the client must use a .375 or larger. He/she doesn't have an option; they MUST practice to become competent shooters, or agree that the guide/PH, etc. will finish the job if they foul-up! Why then, do "they" complain if they need to learn to shoot something larger than small to medium bores? Sorry, but I don't buy the excuses. If I could learn to shoot a .458 Win Mag with full power loads in my sixties (three 500s into moa consistently), I see the only possible reason why another cannot legitimately do the same would be due to some physical infirmity (or mental blockage that can be overcome with training and practice). Bob www.bigbores.ca
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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